Wake up to Domestic Surveillance

flacaltenn

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2011
67,573
22,953
2,250
Hillbilly Hollywood, Tenn
The level of policy discussion about NSA and other surveillance programs is WOEFULLY lacking. But that is the case for most political discussions in this country today. Americans are NOT being served by the press or their elected representatives in that
the vast majority of Americans have no idea what the terms "bulk data collection", metadata, or "data mining" imply. I'm gonna give you a couple things to contemplate and HOPE that you then become invested in understanding and fixing this problem.

1) Data mining is the training of machines to recognize anomalous transactions between people or resources (when applied to monitoring terrorist activities). You cannot train a machine to recognize one anomalous transaction out of millions unless you've trained the machine to REJECT common normal transactions. To do that -- you NEED millions/billions of innocent transaction to "train on". Thus the need to do "bulk" collection. The folks (congresscritters, FISA judges) supposedly monitoring this activity probably have no real appreciation of this need. And to keep from the alarming the public euphemistically refer to metadata or anonymous data records. Anything with my phone number or bank information attached to it is NOT anonymous.

2) When we are reassured that only "foreign" inbound or outbound data is a target for collection, they are depending on the laziness and general stupidity of the American public. Since NSA is allowed to forced ISPs thru "court order" to gain access to colllections, this implies that surveillance taps are being allowed at many of the carrier sites and indeed may include a room or building that is staffed by govt (NSA) folk much like in the past when major US telcos were in bed with NSA for now revealed collection on foreign soil. IN FACT, the whole distinction of DOMESTIC collection is a canard. You could take all the ephemeral metadata the Google builds over the day and flash it over to a mirror site in the UK within a few hours every night. At that point, all of the data are no longer subject to FISA restrictions or "domestic" collection laws. And this is one of the revelations that Snowden and other Civil Libertarians have been trying to get folks to realize. In fact, when Google or Verizon are tapped, they can be "reimbursed" for access to their servers or physical installations on their premises.

3) I have no beef with NSA. They are a rare bastion of competence in a sea of govt bureaucracy. When their mission was to apply methods and practices to surveil our overseas threats, they could apply AWESOME measures. The American people do not want this extremely competent agency building massive new collection capabilities and analysis for domestic surveillance. Like that massive new building in Utah. That capability doesn't belong in political hands..

Support MEANINGFUL changes to the Patriot Act in Congress NOW. And THINK about what you are not being told and you are not hearing in public debate.
 
Have not seen you for a while, glad to see you back posting again.

Even if you are an "evil" mod..

----------------------------------------------

We will always be monitored by the government whether done in the US borders or outside the US borders..
 
You have to remember that we have offices in other countries so we can monitor inside the US. It was a work around the laws.

So even if the NSA can not do direct spying, it can be done indirectly via another country..
 
The level of policy discussion about NSA and other surveillance programs is WOEFULLY lacking. But that is the case for most political discussions in this country today. Americans are NOT being served by the press or their elected representatives in that
the vast majority of Americans have no idea what the terms "bulk data collection", metadata, or "data mining" imply. I'm gonna give you a couple things to contemplate and HOPE that you then become invested in understanding and fixing this problem.

1) Data mining is the training of machines to recognize anomalous transactions between people or resources (when applied to monitoring terrorist activities). You cannot train a machine to recognize one anomalous transaction out of millions unless you've trained the machine to REJECT common normal transactions. To do that -- you NEED millions/billions of innocent transaction to "train on". Thus the need to do "bulk" collection. The folks (congresscritters, FISA judges) supposedly monitoring this activity probably have no real appreciation of this need. And to keep from the alarming the public euphemistically refer to metadata or anonymous data records. Anything with my phone number or bank information attached to it is NOT anonymous.

2) When we are reassured that only "foreign" inbound or outbound data is a target for collection, they are depending on the laziness and general stupidity of the American public. Since NSA is allowed to forced ISPs thru "court order" to gain access to colllections, this implies that surveillance taps are being allowed at many of the carrier sites and indeed may include a room or building that is staffed by govt (NSA) folk much like in the past when major US telcos were in bed with NSA for now revealed collection on foreign soil. IN FACT, the whole distinction of DOMESTIC collection is a canard. You could take all the ephemeral metadata the Google builds over the day and flash it over to a mirror site in the UK within a few hours every night. At that point, all of the data are no longer subject to FISA restrictions or "domestic" collection laws. And this is one of the revelations that Snowden and other Civil Libertarians have been trying to get folks to realize. In fact, when Google or Verizon are tapped, they can be "reimbursed" for access to their servers or physical installations on their premises.

3) I have no beef with NSA. They are a rare bastion of competence in a sea of govt bureaucracy. When their mission was to apply methods and practices to surveil our overseas threats, they could apply AWESOME measures. The American people do not want this extremely competent agency building massive new collection capabilities and analysis for domestic surveillance. Like that massive new building in Utah. That capability doesn't belong in political hands..

Support MEANINGFUL changes to the Patriot Act in Congress NOW. And THINK about what you are not being told and you are not hearing in public debate.

Bump. Good topic, FCT. You're quite right, this needs exposure.

Where da fuck ya been?
 
You have to remember that we have offices in other countries so we can monitor inside the US. It was a work around the laws.

So even if the NSA can not do direct spying, it can be done indirectly via another country..

There was a lot sharing with foreign intelligence of overseas traffic. And we know that we can collect data in the UK (for instance) and share with their authorities , but until 9.11 and the Patriot Act, I seriously doubt that our goverment would openly allow collection of purely domestic data on our soil.

The whole notion of DOMESTIC collection is a word game as I pointed out above. All that is required is to spool it overseas overnight and all of the Patriot Act restrictions are null and void. People will intuitively know this is possible, and then understand how they have been deprived of the understanding required to preserve their civil liberties and prevent government from acquiring such a nefarious capability.

And yes -- this whole thing makes me a bit pissy... Nice to see ya again...
 
Members of Congress are more frightened of voters than terrorist, should Congress indeed act to place citizens' civil liberties above domestic security and another 9/11 occurs.

And as long as voters care more about being given the illusion of 'security,' they'll not compel Congress to safeguard citizens' civil liberties.
 
Members of Congress are more frightened of voters than terrorist, should Congress indeed act to place citizens' civil liberties above domestic security and another 9/11 occurs.

And as long as voters care more about being given the illusion of 'security,' they'll not compel Congress to safeguard citizens' civil liberties.

I really hate to quote authority in a debate, it's the details and the truth that matters, NOT who is for or against. But in this case --- It's hard to be on the wrong side of the Civil Libertarians who have studied the issue and done the math on how much liberty you give up for security. So when the ACLU agrees with Rand Paul and the major apologists for continued surveillance are Diane Feinstein and Peter King -- I stick with principles and avoid the morons.

All you have to do is to look at WHO is trying to wake up America to the threat of putting those tools into political hands. I love it when the true Civil Libertarians turn on their colleagues -- Dont You?????
 
Hi FCT------still consider the caliphate an issue too
trivial to mention?
 
Hi FCT------still consider the caliphate an issue too
trivial to mention?

It's up there with THIS issue. Again, America is ill -informed to know who really understands the issue. I hear major media folks demanding that we take back Anbar tomorrow. But ya gotta ask WHO would we taking it back for? Same way they manipulate folks to look around this issue of Civil Liberties. Too much focus on WHO is speaking and not on what they might say to help you LEARN about the issue..

Having an enemy with an address is huge strategic advantage aint it? . So let the caliphate reign... I'm laser focused on saving THIS country at the moment.
 
Hi FCT------still consider the caliphate an issue too
trivial to mention?

It's up there with THIS issue. Again, America is ill -informed to know who really understands the issue. I hear major media folks demanding that we take back Anbar tomorrow. But ya gotta ask WHO would we taking it back for? Same way they manipulate folks to look around this issue of Civil Liberties. Too much focus on WHO is speaking and not on what they might say to help you LEARN about the issue..

Having an enemy with an address is huge strategic advantage aint it? . So let the caliphate reign... I'm laser focused on saving THIS country at the moment.

oh----ok LET THE CALIPHATE REIGN--------I was a child circa 1960 when I read the islamo Nazi literature
------some of it written in the 1930s (my home town had
been a hot bed of Nazi love) LET HITLER REIGN---
was a major theme. People who did not like adolf were
********WAR MONGERS********
circa 1960 there were still people living in that town
who insisted that the best thing that could happen
to a naked "native" running around in Africa was to
become a slave in a kindly loving cotton growin'
Christian family. Not long ago I ran into a black
engineer----in my house to fix the cable. We talked---
I WAS DELIGHTED TO LEARN he grew up in that very
same Nazi town-------when I was little mom used to say--
"I'll get them------I will sell this house to a colored
family" (colored was a genteel word in those
days-----my Nazi playmates had no problem
with the 'N' word------really true----I once
said "hell" and my little Nazi playmate
CRIED because I had said a "bad" word)
 
You have to remember that we have offices in other countries so we can monitor inside the US. It was a work around the laws.

So even if the NSA can not do direct spying, it can be done indirectly via another country..

There was a lot sharing with foreign intelligence of overseas traffic. And we know that we can collect data in the UK (for instance) and share with their authorities , but until 9.11 and the Patriot Act, I seriously doubt that our goverment would openly allow collection of purely domestic data on our soil.

The whole notion of DOMESTIC collection is a word game as I pointed out above. All that is required is to spool it overseas overnight and all of the Patriot Act restrictions are null and void. People will intuitively know this is possible, and then understand how they have been deprived of the understanding required to preserve their civil liberties and prevent government from acquiring such a nefarious capability.

And yes -- this whole thing makes me a bit pissy... Nice to see ya again...

Well the Patriot Act is nothing more than project Echelon on steroids.

But even if the Patriot Act disappeared it still would not change much other than it going back into the secret conspiracy theories of government.

Even though the government would be doing it, removing the Patriot Act gives the deniability factor again, "The US spying on out citizens? You must be crazy we did away with Patriot Act."

Part of this act was to get different agencies to share information. As information was coming out that the terrorist had been in this country for a while and many had been because of over staying their VISA.

In 2011 here are the votes in the house: Yea: 357 Nay: 66

Just be glad we don't live on a small island where there are cameras everywhere.

Patriot Act Extension Signed By Obama

In 2011 the president signed a reauthorization that included no additional oversight. However, the DOJ has implemented key components of Sen. Leahy's bill.

How Obama has abused the Patriot Act - latimes

In 2013 even the Obama administration was defending the collection of phone data.

Just know that in the information age there are very few secrets and no one agencies can monitor everything. Well unless they finally get a quantum processor.

The real problem is what provisions do you keep in place and which ones do you remove. Do you keep in place the provisions that all the various law enforcement agencies to collect data on you and share it? just like with the Obamacare that collects all your medical records and they can be shared with the medical community?
 
somehow----I have no fear of government spying on me---I do agree that people have a right to privacy------and I actually believe that present laws provide for sufficient
privacy
 
You have to remember that we have offices in other countries so we can monitor inside the US. It was a work around the laws.

So even if the NSA can not do direct spying, it can be done indirectly via another country..

There was a lot sharing with foreign intelligence of overseas traffic. And we know that we can collect data in the UK (for instance) and share with their authorities , but until 9.11 and the Patriot Act, I seriously doubt that our goverment would openly allow collection of purely domestic data on our soil.

The whole notion of DOMESTIC collection is a word game as I pointed out above. All that is required is to spool it overseas overnight and all of the Patriot Act restrictions are null and void. People will intuitively know this is possible, and then understand how they have been deprived of the understanding required to preserve their civil liberties and prevent government from acquiring such a nefarious capability.

And yes -- this whole thing makes me a bit pissy... Nice to see ya again...

Well the Patriot Act is nothing more than project Echelon on steroids.

But even if the Patriot Act disappeared it still would not change much other than it going back into the secret conspiracy theories of government.

Even though the government would be doing it, removing the Patriot Act gives the deniability factor again, "The US spying on out citizens? You must be crazy we did away with Patriot Act."

Part of this act was to get different agencies to share information. As information was coming out that the terrorist had been in this country for a while and many had been because of over staying their VISA.

In 2011 here are the votes in the house: Yea: 357 Nay: 66

Just be glad we don't live on a small island where there are cameras everywhere.

Patriot Act Extension Signed By Obama

In 2011 the president signed a reauthorization that included no additional oversight. However, the DOJ has implemented key components of Sen. Leahy's bill.

How Obama has abused the Patriot Act - latimes

In 2013 even the Obama administration was defending the collection of phone data.

Just know that in the information age there are very few secrets and no one agencies can monitor everything. Well unless they finally get a quantum processor.

The real problem is what provisions do you keep in place and which ones do you remove. Do you keep in place the provisions that all the various law enforcement agencies to collect data on you and share it? just like with the Obamacare that collects all your medical records and they can be shared with the medical community?


The threat is the huge investment in machinery to collect and tap.. I've got no problem with the NSA passing tips on terrorism to the FBI. Ask yourself -- If they only monitor domestic content when American residents are in contact with known foreign threats --- (that's the bullshit party line) then that implies that they KNOW the communications and identities of those foreign threats. So let them tap into Pakistan or Chechnya. What they WANT is know if your barber is in contact with the bad guys and therefore look at the 3rd and 5th person contacts and connections that includes YOU....

The reason the NSA was recruited for the job in the first place is that the FBI is notoriously techno-phobic.. They had to literally rip those G-men out of the telefax and file e cabinet era. So NOW we get this..

dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls


That should scare the piss out of anyone who can think beyond Bruce Jenner"s issues.

The old rule was no 3 letter govt surveillance agencies working domestic data. That should be the way we CONTINUE to keep the govt from having toys like that with the ability to strongarm domestic comm carriers, ISPs, and search companies without public record...
 
If the FBI knows that my hair colorist is in contact with
ISIS -------and THEREFORE takes a look at me----it's ok with me
 
If the FBI knows that my hair colorist is in contact with
ISIS -------and THEREFORE takes a look at me----it's ok with me


That's kind of a flippant cavalier attitude for someone who just admitted on a public forum that they had "little Nazi friends" in their past.

You also by the way have bomb making materials stored in your "compound"..

We are too stupid to survive I suppose. Or at least most of us are..
 
If the FBI knows that my hair colorist is in contact with
ISIS -------and THEREFORE takes a look at me----it's ok with me


That's kind of a flippant cavalier attitude for someone who just admitted on a public forum that they had "little Nazi friends" in their past.

You also by the way have bomb making materials stored in your "compound"..

We are too stupid to survive I suppose. Or at least most of us are..

your answer makes no sense ----you know that there are lots of Nazi shit in the USA -------like you My little friends were nothing more than typical Nazi 100% WASPS like you
 
If the FBI knows that my hair colorist is in contact with
ISIS -------and THEREFORE takes a look at me----it's ok with me


That's kind of a flippant cavalier attitude for someone who just admitted on a public forum that they had "little Nazi friends" in their past.

You also by the way have bomb making materials stored in your "compound"..

We are too stupid to survive I suppose. Or at least most of us are..

your answer makes no sense ----you know that there are lots of Nazi shit in the USA -------like you My little friends were nothing more than typical Nazi 100% WASPS like you

I'm sure you'll make all that amazingly clear after the no-knock raid where they confiscate all your electronics, and personal effects. 12 hours of interrogation in an undisclosed location should straighten all that out. You've got nothing to hide right???
 
If the FBI knows that my hair colorist is in contact with
ISIS -------and THEREFORE takes a look at me----it's ok with me


That's kind of a flippant cavalier attitude for someone who just admitted on a public forum that they had "little Nazi friends" in their past.

You also by the way have bomb making materials stored in your "compound"..

We are too stupid to survive I suppose. Or at least most of us are..

your answer makes no sense ----you know that there are lots of Nazi shit in the USA -------like you My little friends were nothing more than typical Nazi 100% WASPS like you

I'm sure you'll make all that amazingly clear after the no-knock raid where they confiscate all your electronics, and personal effects. 12 hours of interrogation in an undisclosed location should straighten all that out. You've got nothing to hide right???


Oh gee-----I AM IMPRESSED ----the ZIONIST CONTROLLED CIA IS AFTER ME -------sheeesh
 
The level of policy discussion about NSA and other surveillance programs is WOEFULLY lacking. But that is the case for most political discussions in this country today. Americans are NOT being served by the press or their elected representatives in that
the vast majority of Americans have no idea what the terms "bulk data collection", metadata, or "data mining" imply. I'm gonna give you a couple things to contemplate and HOPE that you then become invested in understanding and fixing this problem.

1) Data mining is the training of machines to recognize anomalous transactions between people or resources (when applied to monitoring terrorist activities). You cannot train a machine to recognize one anomalous transaction out of millions unless you've trained the machine to REJECT common normal transactions. To do that -- you NEED millions/billions of innocent transaction to "train on". Thus the need to do "bulk" collection. The folks (congresscritters, FISA judges) supposedly monitoring this activity probably have no real appreciation of this need. And to keep from the alarming the public euphemistically refer to metadata or anonymous data records. Anything with my phone number or bank information attached to it is NOT anonymous.

2) When we are reassured that only "foreign" inbound or outbound data is a target for collection, they are depending on the laziness and general stupidity of the American public. Since NSA is allowed to forced ISPs thru "court order" to gain access to colllections, this implies that surveillance taps are being allowed at many of the carrier sites and indeed may include a room or building that is staffed by govt (NSA) folk much like in the past when major US telcos were in bed with NSA for now revealed collection on foreign soil. IN FACT, the whole distinction of DOMESTIC collection is a canard. You could take all the ephemeral metadata the Google builds over the day and flash it over to a mirror site in the UK within a few hours every night. At that point, all of the data are no longer subject to FISA restrictions or "domestic" collection laws. And this is one of the revelations that Snowden and other Civil Libertarians have been trying to get folks to realize. In fact, when Google or Verizon are tapped, they can be "reimbursed" for access to their servers or physical installations on their premises.

3) I have no beef with NSA. They are a rare bastion of competence in a sea of govt bureaucracy. When their mission was to apply methods and practices to surveil our overseas threats, they could apply AWESOME measures. The American people do not want this extremely competent agency building massive new collection capabilities and analysis for domestic surveillance. Like that massive new building in Utah. That capability doesn't belong in political hands..

Support MEANINGFUL changes to the Patriot Act in Congress NOW. And THINK about what you are not being told and you are not hearing in public debate.

It's wonderful to see you on USMB, Flacaltenn. About the machines that trace - there is a cryptic writing called Boolean? Am I naming that right? I have a friend who swears by it because he likes his privacy. He told me it is the mispelling of words purposely done that throws them off. I believe he knew someone who knew Snowden when he worked for Booz - Allen. I don't know if I spelled that company name correctly but it is a firm that the govt. comes to for high tech surveillance, etc. I'm told you have to be highly intelligent to work there and apparently Snowden was an exceptionally brilliant young man. (it seems that was kept out of the news). Again, it is nice to see you!
 

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