Wage laws

[ThinkCritically]

Don't need them. In fact they hurt low skill workers the most.

 

[DSGE]

Yep. Not really much content there, but I agree. If you want to help poor people, do it with a negative income tax, not with wage regulations.

 

[Widdekind]

they hurt low skill workers the most.

if the "job ladder" does not "reach down to the poor"; then they will have no way of "climbing" out of poverty; and will rely on charity, i.e. "welfare doles"

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Don't need them. In fact they hurt low skill workers the most.

You forgot to cite your source in support of this.

 

[starcraftzzz]

Don't need them. In fact they hurt low skill workers the most.

You are 100% wrong.
Why The Fast Food Industry Hates The Idea of Raising The Minimum Wage
^Some hidden benefits of minimum wage increases would be a nominal uptick in fast food costs resulting in less fast food consumption and therefore less health care costs

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/07/minimum-wage-increase-help-economy-
experts_n_872617.html
BW Online | April 12, 2004 | Commentary: The Costco Way
^A higher minimum wage that is 40% higher results in employee turnover being almost 400% less.
^Comparable stores that have higher wages saw less turnover and higher productivity and therefor lower costs of labour by a little less than 1/3. Meaning Costco’s employees are 30% more productive.

http://www.letjusticeroll.org/pdfs/AJustMinimumWage.pdf
^Unemployment was lowest during times of high minimum wages.

Minimum Wage and Its Effects on Small Business | Economic Policy Institute
^States with higher minimum wages saw 30% more per capita job growth.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=phNtm3LmDZEN4obqrPBgrGQ
U.S. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Minimum Wage Laws in the States
^states with higher minimum wages saw 12% less poverty.

http://www.bls.gov/http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm
U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
^Minimum wage increases preceded times with less inflation, less poverty and less unemployment, and more GDP growth.

Minimum wage has decreased even while minimum wage workers qualifications and productivity has increased.
Minimum wage has decreased by 20%.
Education attainment of minimum wage workers has increased by 50% and Workers productivity has increased by 45%
^Minimum wage workers: better educated, worse compensated | Economic Policy Institute
Workers' productivity rises...their wages don't

Top U.S. Chamber Official: The Minimum Wage Is 'Counterproductive' And 'Doesn't Help' | ThinkProgress
^Minimum wage increase in New Jersey followed more job growth then neighboring Pennsylvania who didn’t see an increase in minimum wage. In 2009 the minimum wage increase boosted consumer spending and therefor demand by 5 billion.

U.S. minimum wage hike a stimulus to economy: report | Reuters
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/07/minimum-wage-increase-help-economy-experts_n_872617.html
^A minimum wage increase would act similar to unemployment benefits and food stamps providing billions of stimulus and demand to the economy a dollar increase in the federal minimum wage would increase output by 10 billion dollars while simultaneously expanding living standards for the poorest Americans.

 

[uscitizen]

Yep pay people less in a consumer spending based economy, real bright stuff there.

 

[DSGE]

Don't need them. In fact they hurt low skill workers the most.

You are 100% wrong.
Why The Fast Food Industry Hates The Idea of Raising The Minimum Wage
^Some hidden benefits of minimum wage increases would be a nominal uptick in fast food costs resulting in less fast food consumption and therefore less health care costs

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/07/minimum-wage-increase-help-economy-
experts_n_872617.html
BW Online | April 12, 2004 | Commentary: The Costco Way
^A higher minimum wage that is 40% higher results in employee turnover being almost 400% less.
^Comparable stores that have higher wages saw less turnover and higher productivity and therefor lower costs of labour by a little less than 1/3. Meaning Costco’s employees are 30% more productive.

http://www.letjusticeroll.org/pdfs/AJustMinimumWage.pdf
^Unemployment was lowest during times of high minimum wages.

Minimum Wage and Its Effects on Small Business | Economic Policy Institute
^States with higher minimum wages saw 30% more per capita job growth.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=phNtm3LmDZEN4obqrPBgrGQ
U.S. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Minimum Wage Laws in the States
^states with higher minimum wages saw 12% less poverty.

http://www.bls.gov/http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm
U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
^Minimum wage increases preceded times with less inflation, less poverty and less unemployment, and more GDP growth.

Minimum wage has decreased even while minimum wage workers qualifications and productivity has increased.
Minimum wage has decreased by 20%.
Education attainment of minimum wage workers has increased by 50% and Workers productivity has increased by 45%
^Minimum wage workers: better educated, worse compensated | Economic Policy Institute
Workers' productivity rises...their wages don't

Top U.S. Chamber Official: The Minimum Wage Is 'Counterproductive' And 'Doesn't Help' | ThinkProgress
^Minimum wage increase in New Jersey followed more job growth then neighboring Pennsylvania who didn’t see an increase in minimum wage. In 2009 the minimum wage increase boosted consumer spending and therefor demand by 5 billion.

U.S. minimum wage hike a stimulus to economy: report | Reuters
Minimum Wage Increase Would Help Sluggish Economy, Say Experts
^A minimum wage increase would act similar to unemployment benefits and food stamps providing billions of stimulus and demand to the economy a dollar increase in the federal minimum wage would increase output by 10 billion dollars while simultaneously expanding living standards for the poorest Americans.

Real rigorous economic studies there. Totally not full of reverse causation or post hoc ergo propter hoc statements.

 

[DSGE]

Yep pay people less in a consumer spending based economy, real bright stuff there.

How is that statement even coherent, in your mind? Aside from the fact that the argument against minimum wage is that it lowers employment more than it increases income, and so you actually get more consumer spending by lowering the minimum wage, what point are you trying to make? That just continually expanding consumer demand somehow increases output and real income rather than just resulting in inflation? I don't care so much for the basic AD/AS model, but you really need to learn it dude.

 

[inALIENable]

You've got to be a really super duper worthless idiot if you need a minimum wage law. Gawd, how pitiful, I'd have to put myself out of my own misery it I was that damn stoopid and hopeless.

 

[ThinkCritically]

Don't need them. In fact they hurt low skill workers the most.

You are 100% wrong.

Why The Fast Food Industry Hates The Idea of Raising The Minimum Wage
^Some hidden benefits of minimum wage increases would be a nominal uptick in fast food costs resulting in less fast food consumption and therefore less health care costs

This article is right an increase in costs for the company would be passed on to consumers, thus reducing demand for unhealthy fast food joints. But wouldn't people just substitute their fast-food habit with some other cheaper source of equally unhealthy food.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/07/minimum-wage-increase-help-economy-
experts_n_872617.html

Sorry this link didn't work.

BW Online | April 12, 2004 | Commentary: The Costco Way
^A higher minimum wage that is 40% higher results in employee turnover being almost 400% less.
^Comparable stores that have higher wages saw less turnover and higher productivity and therefor lower costs of labour by a little less than 1/3. Meaning Costco’s employees are 30% more productive.

This is a good article about how paying people makes them more productive. I agree 100%, so why do we need minimum wage laws again? Seems like CostCo has it figured out already, pay people a wage that maximizes profit.

http://www.letjusticeroll.org/pdfs/AJustMinimumWage.pdf
^Unemployment was lowest during times of high minimum wages.

I'm not sure which article you are referring to here cause there a lot of them, but correlation does not prove causation.

Minimum Wage and Its Effects on Small Business | Economic Policy Institute
^States with higher minimum wages saw 30% more per capita job growth.

I'm not sure where you got "30%" from... it isn't in the article?

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=phNtm3LmDZEN4obqrPBgrGQ
U.S. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Minimum Wage Laws in the States
^states with higher minimum wages saw 12% less poverty.

again i'm not sure where you got "12%" from....it isn't in this link either?

http://www.bls.gov/http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm
U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
^Minimum wage increases preceded times with less inflation, less poverty and less unemployment, and more GDP growth.

This link failed to load also... but again correlation does not necessitate causation in regards to inflation poverty or unemployment. GDP growth? Raising minimum wage might raise nominal GDP, but how could it raise real GDP? And if it does raise real GDP then why don't we just raise minimum wage to say $100/per hour then GDP should really go up. GDP is a vague measure of an economies performance anyways...

Minimum wage workers: better educated, worse compensated | Economic Policy Institute
Workers' productivity rises...their wages don't

Welcome to globalization

Top U.S. Chamber Official: The Minimum Wage Is 'Counterproductive' And 'Doesn't Help' | ThinkProgress
^Minimum wage increase in New Jersey followed more job growth then neighboring Pennsylvania who didn’t see an increase in minimum wage. In 2009 the minimum wage increase boosted consumer spending and therefor demand by 5 billion.

You are right, a temporary boost in spending from the poor should increase consumer spending, again why don't we just increase the minimum wage to say $100 then we should have a huge increase in consumer spending...

U.S. minimum wage hike a stimulus to economy: report | Reuters

Sorry this link didn't load either.

Minimum Wage Increase Would Help Sluggish Economy, Say Experts
^A minimum wage increase would act similar to unemployment benefits and food stamps providing billions of stimulus and demand to the economy a dollar increase in the federal minimum wage would increase output by 10 billion dollars while simultaneously expanding living standards for the poorest Americans.

This might work for a little while, but how is it not just kicking the can down the road. As business costs increase these costs are passed on to the consumer in the long-run, right?

 

[editec]

Don't need them. In fact they hurt low skill workers the most.

In keeping with the deep critical thinking that so obviously went into producing this POV, my response shall be likewise:

Nah-uh!

 

[sparky]

meet the new boss, same as the old boss>

 

[uscitizen]

Yep pay people less in a consumer spending based economy, real bright stuff there.

How is that statement even coherent, in your mind? Aside from the fact that the argument against minimum wage is that it lowers employment more than it increases income, and so you actually get more consumer spending by lowering the minimum wage, what point are you trying to make? That just continually expanding consumer demand somehow increases output and real income rather than just resulting in inflation? I don't care so much for the basic AD/AS model, but you really need to learn it dude.

Ahh but those following the old conventional economic wisdom did not even see this recession coming and then said it would be over quickly , just an adjustment blip.
I called it long before it happened, I saw it as inevitable and a long downturn.
And I view you as just another of those who ridiculed me then.

 

[Dragon]

As usual, no evidence is offered in support of the idea that minimum wage decreases employment at the low end of the wage spectrum. The conclusion arises from theory based on a priori assumptions, and the idea of verifying it scientifically is totally foreign to the true believer.

It's not true. The reason it's not true (theoretically) is that a business hires the employees that it has to, and pays them what it has to, and is not going to do without necessary employees as a cost adjustment merely because it has to pay more.

But more importantly, it's not true because there is exactly zero empirical evidence that it is true.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The OP is advocating a doctrine as much an anachronism as conservatism itself: the ‘liberty to contract.’

In West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish the Court upheld as Constitutional a state’s minimum wage law, noting that in a modern economy, employer and employee are not on equal footing:

The exploitation of a class of workers who are in an unequal position with respect to bargaining power, and are thus relatively defenceless against the denial of a living wage, is not only detrimental to their health and wellbeing, but casts a direct burden for their support upon the community

The Court also noted that there are certain real-world demands workers must deal with that place them at a greater disadvantage with regard to employment and wages.

 

[Sallow]

Don't need them. In fact they hurt low skill workers the most.

 

[Widdekind]

minimum wage decreases employment at the low end of the wage spectrum

Supply & Demand -- as the "Price" (wages) of labor "Supplied" increases, the "Demand" (employment) for that labor "Product" decreases

have you evidence, of the violation, of the Law of Supply & Demand ? even if the "Demand" for labor is inelastic, i.e. "necessary jobs"; even then increases in labor "Price" will still reduce "Demand" (albeit less than otherwise)

but sub-minimum wage jobs are not "necessary jobs", whose natural fair-market-value would already be "high"; instead sub-minimum wage jobs are those for which people would pay "little", e.g. "sweeping sidewalks". By comparison, to Commodities, what "50-cent widget" would still sell, if "Minimum Price Laws" were passed, Legally Mandating that they cost $5 ?

Labor is a "Product", which is bought-and-sold, like any other; "Minimum Wages" are "Minimum Prices"; they distort economies precisely similarly -- do you want to pass any "Minimum Price Laws" ?

(our economy is in a recession; we're debating "Supply & Demand", proved an economic Law, hundreds of years ago; "re-inventing the economic 'wheel', whilst 'our economy burns', Will not work out well for our economy")

 

[ThinkCritically]

As usual, no evidence is offered in support of the idea that minimum wage decreases employment at the low end of the wage spectrum. The conclusion arises from theory based on a priori assumptions, and the idea of verifying it scientifically is totally foreign to the true believer.

You are right I have no evidence that this is true, except the millions of mexicans that find work below minimum wage.

It's not true. The reason it's not true (theoretically) is that a business hires the employees that it has to, and pays them what it has to, and is not going to do without necessary employees as a cost adjustment merely because it has to pay more.

You are right, businesses will not go without necessary employees as a cost adjustment, but you do not account for the slightly less necessary employees that they might hire if they were cheaper than minimum wage. This is my point after all. I'm not talking about union members that make well above the minimum wage. I am talking about people with little to no education that might gain employment experience if they were hired in by a company at affordable prices.

But more importantly, it's not true because there is exactly zero empirical evidence that it is true.

You are right again, I haven't bothered to check if there is any empirical evidence. Which probably makes you dismiss me. Let me check and see if I can find some special interest group that has manipulated the data just right. If its empirical after all then it must be true.

 

[Dragon]

Supply & Demand -- as the "Price" (wages) of labor "Supplied" increases, the "Demand" (employment) for that labor "Product" decreases

Yes, yes, I know the theory, but it only holds to the extent the market is elastic, which in turn only holds to the extent that the purchaser can forego making the purchase.

The labor market is not particularly price-elastic. You do not see demand drop as price rises, nor do you see demand increase as price drops, except in rare occasions when outsourcing is possible and thus competition becomes effective, which is not the case with minimum-wage jobs in the U.S., almost all of which are service jobs that HAVE to be done on-site and so can't be outsourced.

A business hires the work force it needs, neither more nor less, paying the wages it has to, neither more nor less. Since it cannot do business without that work force, it will not cut payrolls in the face of minimum wage increases. If it must, it will raise prices instead.

There is no evidence whatever from the real world supporting your contention. If you disagree, present that evidence, please, not more theorizing.

 

[Dragon]

You are right I have no evidence that this is true, except the millions of mexicans that find work below minimum wage.

That proves nothing except that if businesses can find a way around the minimum wage laws, they will. Also that we need to enforce the laws against hiring illegal immigrants better.

You are right, businesses will not go without necessary employees as a cost adjustment, but you do not account for the slightly less necessary employees that they might hire if they were cheaper than minimum wage.

A well-run business never hires unnecessary staff. If they don't need the help, the money is wasted, no matter how low the wages are.

Let me check and see if I can find some special interest group that has manipulated the data just right. If its empirical after all then it must be true.

Well, what is certainly the case is that if you don't bother checking your theoretical predictions against observation in the real world, you are bound to run into a lot of mistakes.