VW fined up to 18 billion for rigging clean air tests for their vehicles.

[zaangalewa]

The only problem: In the USA VW is maybe in an extraordinary position because nearly no one drives with Diesels there - but here in Europe no one sees any difference between VW and orther companies - also companies from the USA.

My last car was by the way a Diesel. I drove about 125000 miles with this car and drove very exactly 40 mpg. How many miles do you drive with you car per gallon?

You keep going back to fuel mileage arguments.. But this isn't about economy.. It's about making smog.

Do you have annual vehicle inspections in Germany to test tailpipe emissions? Or drive-by automated smog testers? If they detect different types of Nitrogen Oxides --- then your government also must know that VW diesel is not particularly clean and green..

A Diesel is a Diesel. You are using a lot of Diesel engines in the USA - the worst Diesels are working in ships. Ships are producing a unbelievable dirt (and noise!). But nearly no one cares about anything in this contextes. Specially not in China or the USA. But back to your not existing problem: Nitrogen-Oxygens ... what has it to do with Smog? Whatever ... "Stickoxide" is the german expression ... hmm ... problem solved as far as I can see ... Is VW in the USA not using "Harnsäure", also called "Ad blue" here ... one moment ... the american expression is "Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)". This reduces Nitrogen-oxides drastically. So what's the real problem? It makes by the way a lot of fun to drive a fast Diesel.

(And "yes". We have tests for our cars every two years.)

 

[flacaltenn]

You keep going back to fuel mileage arguments.. But this isn't about economy.. It's about making smog.

Do you have annual vehicle inspections in Germany to test tailpipe emissions? Or drive-by automated smog testers? If they detect different types of Nitrogen Oxides --- then your government also must know that VW diesel is not particularly clean and green..

A Diesel is a Diesel. You are using a lot of Diesel engines in the USA - the worst Diesels are working in ships. Ships are producing a unbelievable dirt (and noise!). But nearly no one cares about anything in this contextes. Specially not in China or the USA. But back to your not existing problem: Nitrogen-Oxygens ... what has it to do with Smog? Whatever ... "Stickoxide" is the german expression ... hmm ... problem solved as far as I can see ... Is VW in the USA not using "Harnsäure", also called "Ad blue" here ... one moment ... the american expression is "Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)". This reduces Nitrogen-oxides drastically. So what's the real problem? It makes by the way a lot of fun to drive a fast Diesel.

(And "yes". We have tests for our cars every two years.)

NOx emissions are a principal cause of smog. That's why they are regulated. Probably as well in Germany. And if you have tests every two years -- I'm pretty sure they are TRYING to measure it.
And the problem is -- you cannot assure COMPLIANCE with standards of NOx (or other pollutants) -- if it's up to the driver to add something like "Ad Blue"..

If the only way the model gets to pass the standards is WITH "Ad Blue" -- you'd have to require that ALL diesel fuel contains it..

 

[zaangalewa]

You keep going back to fuel mileage arguments.. But this isn't about economy.. It's about making smog.

Do you have annual vehicle inspections in Germany to test tailpipe emissions? Or drive-by automated smog testers? If they detect different types of Nitrogen Oxides --- then your government also must know that VW diesel is not particularly clean and green..

A Diesel is a Diesel. You are using a lot of Diesel engines in the USA - the worst Diesels are working in ships. Ships are producing a unbelievable dirt (and noise!). But nearly no one cares about anything in this contextes. Specially not in China or the USA. But back to your not existing problem: Nitrogen-Oxygens ... what has it to do with Smog? Whatever ... "Stickoxide" is the german expression ... hmm ... problem solved as far as I can see ... Is VW in the USA not using "Harnsäure", also called "Ad blue" here ... one moment ... the american expression is "Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)". This reduces Nitrogen-oxides drastically. So what's the real problem? It makes by the way a lot of fun to drive a fast Diesel.

(And "yes". We have tests for our cars every two years.)

NOx emissions are a principal cause of smog.

In Germany we don't have a problem with Smog. It's a very long time I heard this word the last time.

That's why they are regulated. Probably as well in Germany. And if you have tests every two years -- I'm pretty sure they are TRYING to measure it.

Trying to measure what? NOx - emissions? They are measuring something - what they are measuring and how they are doing it this I don't know in the moment. On my own I remember only a little defect of a windshield wiper of one of my cars in the last years.

And the problem is -- you cannot assure COMPLIANCE with standards of NOx (or other pollutants) -- if it's up to the driver to add something like "Ad Blue"..

If the only way the model gets to pass the standards is WITH "Ad Blue" -- you'd have to require that ALL diesel fuel contains it..

I don't understand what you like to say with this words. "Ad blue" (=Diesel exhaust fluid (DEF)) is not part of the Diesel. It's in an own tank. This system exists not only for little cars but for trucks too. Do you not use it in the USA?

 

[zaangalewa]

What's not to love about VW?

Interesting VW emblem on this KdF car.

 

[Oldstyle]

VW Chief 'Sorry' After EPA Says Firm Skirted Clean Air Law

The CEO of Volkswagen apologized Sunday and VW customers said they felt duped after the Environmental Protection Agency revealed that the German automaker skirted clean air rules by rigging emissions tests for about 500,000 diesel cars.

The EPA said VW faces fines of up to $37,500 per vehicle for the violations — a total of more than $18 billion. The California Air Resources Board is also investigating.
--------------------------------------

I bet Republicans are pissed. We all know what they think about the value of clean air.

Wow, I glanced at this post to see if for just one time R-Derp could possibly start a post that DIDN'T blame the GOP for something going wrong in the world! LOL Little Deanie is still batting 1.000! Unbelievable...

 

[flacaltenn]

You keep going back to fuel mileage arguments.. But this isn't about economy.. It's about making smog.

Do you have annual vehicle inspections in Germany to test tailpipe emissions? Or drive-by automated smog testers? If they detect different types of Nitrogen Oxides --- then your government also must know that VW diesel is not particularly clean and green..

A Diesel is a Diesel. You are using a lot of Diesel engines in the USA - the worst Diesels are working in ships. Ships are producing a unbelievable dirt (and noise!). But nearly no one cares about anything in this contextes. Specially not in China or the USA. But back to your not existing problem: Nitrogen-Oxygens ... what has it to do with Smog? Whatever ... "Stickoxide" is the german expression ... hmm ... problem solved as far as I can see ... Is VW in the USA not using "Harnsäure", also called "Ad blue" here ... one moment ... the american expression is "Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)". This reduces Nitrogen-oxides drastically. So what's the real problem? It makes by the way a lot of fun to drive a fast Diesel.

(And "yes". We have tests for our cars every two years.)

NOx emissions are a principal cause of smog.

In Germany we don't have a problem with Smog. It's a very long time I heard this word the last time.

That's why they are regulated. Probably as well in Germany. And if you have tests every two years -- I'm pretty sure they are TRYING to measure it.

Trying to measure what? NOx - emissions? They are measuring something - what they are measuring and how they are doing it this I don't know in the moment. On my own I remember only a little defect of a windshield wiper of one of my cars in the last years.

And the problem is -- you cannot assure COMPLIANCE with standards of NOx (or other pollutants) -- if it's up to the driver to add something like "Ad Blue"..

If the only way the model gets to pass the standards is WITH "Ad Blue" -- you'd have to require that ALL diesel fuel contains it..

I don't understand what you like to say with this words. "Ad blue" (=Diesel exhaust fluid (DEF)) is not part of the Diesel. It's in an own tank. This system exists not only for little cars but for trucks too. Do you not use it in the USA?

Ahhh.,. I see. I have NO IDEA whether passenger diesels in the US use that Ad Blue system.. Probably would be interesting to ask if anyone has had a diesel recently..

As for NOx emissions in Europe -- this article SHOWS that lab testing for diesel pollution is WAY different from street driving.. They've known this for years. And it IS a major contributor to smog all over the continent..

Best article I find on what Europe KNEW BEFORE the EPA did...

Will America Avoid Europe’s 'Clean' Diesel Problems? - HybridCars.com


Lessons From Europe

Although the WHO lacked data on clean diesels, and suggested public health may improve with them, the European Union admitted two months ago its emission policies have been ineffective for two decades.

Janez Potocnik, member of the European Commission in charge of Environment said in December 2013 that since 1992 Euro 1 through Euro 5 regulations have failed to spur improved diesel emissions, particularly regarding NOx. He said stricter “Euro 6” regulations to replace Euro 5 this September must correct this.

“The problem is, the tests which are done in the laboratory do not correspond to the actual performance on the street and that’s absolutely what we have to fix,” said Potocnik in a video clip (after the 9-minute mark). “The actual situation is such that the [emissions] performance on the street today its basically somewhere around the level of the standards that were set in Euro 1. This was by the way, in 1992.”

But Simon Birkett, founder and director of Clean Air in London, said Americans should try to avoid mistakes from which Europeans now suffer.

“In terms of harmful air pollutants, diesel exhaust has been a public health catastrophe for Europe,” said Birkett.

His organization is urging London’s mayor “to issue formal smog warnings to save lives, avoid hospitalisations and build public understanding of air pollution.”

This is a great chart from the article. As NOx restrictions and testing went farther and farther DOWN --- the ACTUAL street NOx emissions for street driving went up up up... Emission test and regulation levels on the LEFT -- and actual driving measurements on the RIGHT.

Seems like the EPA is a couple years behind the car magazines and the news from Europe..

 

[zaangalewa]

... Seems like the EPA is a couple years behind the car magazines and the news from Europe.

That's true. Our newspapers and magazines reported a lot about such problems. I'm in general always astonished about moralisms in case of everything what has to do with automobiles. Besides: VW needs indeed a new structure in the whole company, because it seems the workers of VW live in such a great fear of their mangement that they don't tell them any longer bad news - who likes to be fired or isolated only because he says what he thinks what the truth is? - so the upper class of idiots there is able to sleep instead to do their work. VW was warned in many different ways.

A special problem is in the moment the new standard "EU-6" that exists since September now everywhere in Europe. I know that the european politicians are using since a long time unrealistic values - but in case of NOx-emissions of Diesel engines exists indeed the very heavy problem that all Diesels - even if they are using the best modern technology - seem in normal daily situations to produce 10times up to 20-30 times more NOx-emissions then the allowed values of the norm EU-6. Wether this is really dangerous or causes really problems I don't know in the moment. I don't have the feeling this is important. Maybe it's only a kind of irrealism in the political structures. Lots of people today in leading positions seem to hope if everyone says the same lies then the reality will change and the lies will become true. Not my philosophy. I'm a Christian. Truth is nothing what human beings are producing. We are only able to avoid mistakes or to learn out of mistakes. Whatever. The problem now: Without Diesel cars we are not able to reduce green house gases in an effective way. And do not think electric cars are not producing green-house gases or NOx or other dangerous substances - what they are producing depends on the way how the electric power is produced.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Vw is evil as it was created by Adolph Hitler. Serves them right!

 

[zaangalewa]

Vw is evil as it was created by Adolph Hitler. Serves them right!

I guess a very good reason to try to communicate with Americans for every member of every nation and any culture in the world is it to learn how to respect people only because they are existing - although they try to do do everything so no one is able to respect human beings any longer. If you use the word "evil" you should perhaps remember, that your nation spies everywhere in Germany - what makes de facto every citizen of the USA to an enemy of Germany - or let me say "combatant of a terrorizing state-doctrine". This gives us on the other side every right - if we would accept the us-american views on justice as a real form of justice - to bring every citizen of the USA in a concentration camp like Guantanamo. Or to say it with the words of George W. Bush: "You're next!". ...

 

[flacaltenn]

... Seems like the EPA is a couple years behind the car magazines and the news from Europe.

That's true. Our newspapers and magazines reported a lot about such problems. I'm in general always astonished about moralisms in case of everything what has to do with automobiles. Besides: VW needs indeed a new structure in the whole company, because it seems the workers of VW live in such a great fear of their mangement that they don't tell them any longer bad news - who likes to be fired or isolated only because he says what he thinks what the truth is? - so the upper class of idiots there is able to sleep instead to do their work. VW was warned in many different ways.

A special problem is in the moment the new standard "EU-6" that exists since September now everywhere in Europe. I know that the european politicians are using since a long time unrealistic values - but in case of NOx-emissions of Diesel engines exists indeed the very heavy problem that all Diesels - even if they are using the best modern technology - seem in normal daily situations to produce 10times up to 20-30 times more NOx-emissions then the allowed values of the norm EU-6. Wether this is really dangerous or causes really problems I don't know in the moment. I don't have the feeling this is important. Maybe it's only a kind of irrealism in the political structures. Lots of people today in leading positions seem to hope if everyone says the same lies then the reality will change and the lies will become true. Not my philosophy. I'm a Christian. Truth is nothing what human beings are producing. We are only able to avoid mistakes or to learn out of mistakes. Whatever. The problem now: Without Diesel cars we are not able to reduce green house gases in an effective way. And do not think electric cars are not producing green-house gases or NOx or other dangerous substances - what they are producing depends on the way how the electric power is produced.

Yes.. Agree with all of that. It's just strange that ALL these govts (US included) knew so little about car technology to let this problem cook for a decade or more..

And I REALLY liked that Usher-Waltz that you posted. I USED to (try) to play stuff like that before I developed a bad right hand tremor. I'll never be able to quit my job and get a band together again..

 

[zaangalewa]

... Seems like the EPA is a couple years behind the car magazines and the news from Europe.

That's true. Our newspapers and magazines reported a lot about such problems. I'm in general always astonished about moralisms in case of everything what has to do with automobiles. Besides: VW needs indeed a new structure in the whole company, because it seems the workers of VW live in such a great fear of their mangement that they don't tell them any longer bad news - who likes to be fired or isolated only because he says what he thinks what the truth is? - so the upper class of idiots there is able to sleep instead to do their work. VW was warned in many different ways.

A special problem is in the moment the new standard "EU-6" that exists since September now everywhere in Europe. I know that the european politicians are using since a long time unrealistic values - but in case of NOx-emissions of Diesel engines exists indeed the very heavy problem that all Diesels - even if they are using the best modern technology - seem in normal daily situations to produce 10times up to 20-30 times more NOx-emissions then the allowed values of the norm EU-6. Wether this is really dangerous or causes really problems I don't know in the moment. I don't have the feeling this is important. Maybe it's only a kind of irrealism in the political structures. Lots of people today in leading positions seem to hope if everyone says the same lies then the reality will change and the lies will become true. Not my philosophy. I'm a Christian. Truth is nothing what human beings are producing. We are only able to avoid mistakes or to learn out of mistakes. Whatever. The problem now: Without Diesel cars we are not able to reduce green house gases in an effective way. And do not think electric cars are not producing green-house gases or NOx or other dangerous substances - what they are producing depends on the way how the electric power is produced.

Yes.. Agree with all of that. It's just strange that ALL these govts (US included) knew so little about car technology to let this problem cook for a decade or more..

The problem of lawyers is that we make our human laws on our own. Maybe some people are thinking natural laws are like human laws. One reason why Ferdinand Piëch was so successfull in leading VW was that he gave more competences to natural scientists and engineers. But it seems to me something changed in the hierarchies of VW. I hope they will find their way.

And I REALLY liked that Usher-Waltz that you posted

. I USED to (try) to play stuff like that before I developed a bad right hand tremor. I'll never be able to quit my job and get a band together again..

I'm happy that you like it. It's a challenge. U-n-b-e-l-i-e-v-a-b-l-e that someone is able to make music in such ways - but sometimes the reality is just simple wonder-ful. Music shows by the way in a very excellent way: the perfect is not perfect. In every perfectness exists a greater perfectness. Sometimes the greater perfectness is even less perfect - maybe sometimes even not perfect at all.