Vodka vs. Islam

Treeshepherd

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Oct 17, 2014
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My Dad is super into Ancestry.com right now. He sent in a DNA sample to get his genetics. It turns out that we're part Russian (from the Northwest by Scandinavia). So, I've been reading a little Russian history.

Vladamir the Great's father was from Scandinavia, but was forced to flee to the south. Of the princes, Vladamir won out and conquered what would become the Kievan realm in around 1000 AD (from which sprung the nation of Russia). So, Vladamir wants to convert his pagan subjects to monotheism, because he thinks that is what modern countries do. He sends emissaries around the world to shop for religion. The reps that head west are not too impressed by Catholicism, and Vladamir doesn't like how much authority the Pope has. The dudes that go to Constantinople are impressed by the Eastern Byzantine church, but again, their Pope has a lot of authority. Vlad didn't like Judaism because he felt their dispersal amounted to weakness. The Muslims had no Pope and were strong in power, and Vlad would have chosen Islam but for one or two deal breakers. They don't allow drinking. If not for that, Russia would be Islamic today.

It's bleak in the Russian winter. They need their vodka, and they also enjoy a bit of ham hock in their borscht.

There were several pre-Crusades Muslim conquests in Europe, mostly Italy, Spain and France. Islam couldn't grab a foothold. I have to think that part of the reason is that Italians, Spanish and Francs love their wine. It was booze that kept Islam out of Europe back then.
 
So, Vladamir wants to convert his pagan subjects to monotheism, because he thinks that is what modern countries do.

Was it that simple? Or because it provides a paradigm framework for social control?

I always figured that's why Constantine incorporated Christianism into the Empire -- that he saw it as a vehicle for a greater channeling of power.

I dunno, setting out to convert your whole population to a new religious format just because "it's what modern countries do" seems a bit weak...
 
So, Vladamir wants to convert his pagan subjects to monotheism, because he thinks that is what modern countries do.

Was it that simple? Or because it provides a paradigm framework for social control?

I always figured that's why Constantine incorporated Christianism into the Empire -- that he saw it as a vehicle for a greater channeling of power.

I dunno, setting out to convert your whole population to a new religious format just because "it's what modern countries do" seems a bit weak...

I believe you are right about Constantine----he wanted to consolidate his power----and
also ---his mother was Christian. Some scholars believe that he, himself, never
actually converted and certainly did not practice. I also believe that he was instrumental in forming the NT ---a bit
customized, Is the above VLAD----
VLAD the impaler?
 
Islam is the second most widely professed religion in Russia. Islam is considered as one of Russia’s traditional religions, legally a part of Russian historical heritage.

According to a poll by the Russian Public Opinion Research Center, 6% of respondents considered themselves Muslims.[2] According toReuters, Muslim minorities make up a seventh (14%) of Russia's population.[3] Muslims constitute the nationalities in the North Caucasus residing between the Black Sea and the Caspian

Sea:Circassians, Balkars, Chechens, Ingush, Kabardin, Karachay, and numerous Dagestani peoples. Also, in the middle of theVolga Basin reside populations of Tatars and Bashkirs, the vast majority of whom are Muslims. There are over 5,000[4]registered religious Muslim organizations.

Islam in Russia - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
 
Most of what we now call Russia is one enormous plain. The continuous flatness contributed to a linguistic and cultural homogeneity during the pagan times (ie, they drank the same peasant booze). There was a common way of life, but nothing like a modern nation state until Vladamir the Great secured the boundaries of the Kievan realm around 980 AD. He drew 5 million people together into genuine nationhood.

Was it that simple? Or because it provides a paradigm framework for social control?

I always figured that's why Constantine incorporated Christianism into the Empire -- that he saw it as a vehicle for a greater channeling of power.

I dunno, setting out to convert your whole population to a new religious format just because "it's what modern countries do" seems a bit weak...

Okay, Pogo, but this is the food and drink forum. I love a great religious debate, but my OP was more of a lighthearted idea that dawned on me as I was reading a history book. But, yeah, having a centralized religion with organized orders of clergy provides a framework for social control. Not only that, but Russian monasteries would later become centers of literacy and education, also hallmarks of the nation state. Today we have the modern invention of public schools to indoctrinate people in.

Vladamir recognized that centralized religion was part of building and maintaining a nation. He was intrigued by the Volga Bulgars, who were Islamic. Indeed, Islam would have been the most hassle-free religion to adopt and Vladdy was just a pagan Viking looking for something effective. But, he dismissed their religion when he found out that abstinence from alcohol was a condition of their faith. Vladamir famously said, " Drinking is the joy of the Russes. We cannot exist without that pleasure."

It was vodka that prevented Vladdy from forcing his citizens to adopt Islam, or rather his citizens love of vodka that made that task seem too difficult.
 
Most of what we now call Russia is one enormous plain. The continuous flatness contributed to a linguistic and cultural homogeneity during the pagan times (ie, they drank the same peasant booze). There was a common way of life, but nothing like a modern nation state until Vladamir the Great secured the boundaries of the Kievan realm around 980 AD. He drew 5 million people together into genuine nationhood.

Was it that simple? Or because it provides a paradigm framework for social control?

I always figured that's why Constantine incorporated Christianism into the Empire -- that he saw it as a vehicle for a greater channeling of power.

I dunno, setting out to convert your whole population to a new religious format just because "it's what modern countries do" seems a bit weak...

Okay, Pogo, but this is the food and drink forum. I love a great religious debate, but my OP was more of a lighthearted idea that dawned on me as I was reading a history book. But, yeah, having a centralized religion with organized orders of clergy provides a framework for social control. Not only that, but Russian monasteries would later become centers of literacy and education, also hallmarks of the nation state. Today we have the modern invention of public schools to indoctrinate people in.

Vladamir recognized that centralized religion was part of building and maintaining a nation. He was intrigued by the Volga Bulgars, who were Islamic. Indeed, Islam would have been the most hassle-free religion to adopt and Vladdy was just a pagan Viking looking for something effective. But, he dismissed their religion when he found out that abstinence from alcohol was a condition of their faith. Vladamir famously said, " Drinking is the joy of the Russes. We cannot exist without that pleasure."

It was vodka that prevented Vladdy from forcing his citizens to adopt Islam, or rather his citizens love of vodka that made that task seem too difficult.

Ah thanks for clarification. Did not notice the Food and Drink Forum. I didn't even know there was such a thing.
Not a drinker myself so I was drawn to the other part of the title, the religion reference. :)
 
In fairness, isn't vodka made from potatoes? Potatoes didn't come to the Eurasian continent until the 17th or 18th century. Anyway, the Russians liked to drink and so did the Francs and Italians and Spaniards. So that's why the Muslim conquests failed.
 
So, Vladamir wants to convert his pagan subjects to monotheism, because he thinks that is what modern countries do.

Was it that simple? Or because it provides a paradigm framework for social control?

I always figured that's why Constantine incorporated Christianism into the Empire -- that he saw it as a vehicle for a greater channeling of power.

I dunno, setting out to convert your whole population to a new religious format just because "it's what modern countries do" seems a bit weak...

I believe you are right about Constantine----he wanted to consolidate his power----and
also ---his mother was Christian. Some scholars believe that he, himself, never
actually converted and certainly did not practice. I also believe that he was instrumental in forming the NT ---a bit
customized, Is the above VLAD----
VLAD the impaler?
Different Vlad.
 
In fairness, isn't vodka made from potatoes? Potatoes didn't come to the Eurasian continent until the 17th or 18th century. Anyway, the Russians liked to drink and so did the Francs and Italians and Spaniards. So that's why thThe world's first written mention of the drink and of the word "vodka" was in 1405 from Akta Grodzkie recorder of deeds, in the court documents from the Palatinate of Sandomierz in Poland and it went on to become a popular drink there.e Muslim conquests failed.


"The world's first written mention of the drink and of the word "vodka" was in 1405 from Akta Grodzkie recorder of deeds, in the court documents from the Palatinate of Sandomierz in Poland and it went on to become a popular drink there."

It can be made from potatoes or from grain.

It is basically ethanol with some flavoring.
 
Selling the Labyrinth

How about selling cornwater-whiskey to the people of the American northeast, since, that region is conducive to recreational traffic?

Aren't foods/drinks more and more part of anthropological valuations?



:afro:

www.apple.com
 
My Dad is super into Ancestry.com right now. He sent in a DNA sample to get his genetics. It turns out that we're part Russian (from the Northwest by Scandinavia). So, I've been reading a little Russian history.

Vladamir the Great's father was from Scandinavia, but was forced to flee to the south. Of the princes, Vladamir won out and conquered what would become the Kievan realm in around 1000 AD (from which sprung the nation of Russia). So, Vladamir wants to convert his pagan subjects to monotheism, because he thinks that is what modern countries do. He sends emissaries around the world to shop for religion. The reps that head west are not too impressed by Catholicism, and Vladamir doesn't like how much authority the Pope has. The dudes that go to Constantinople are impressed by the Eastern Byzantine church, but again, their Pope has a lot of authority. Vlad didn't like Judaism because he felt their dispersal amounted to weakness. The Muslims had no Pope and were strong in power, and Vlad would have chosen Islam but for one or two deal breakers. They don't allow drinking. If not for that, Russia would be Islamic today.

It's bleak in the Russian winter. They need their vodka, and they also enjoy a bit of ham hock in their borscht.

There were several pre-Crusades Muslim conquests in Europe, mostly Italy, Spain and France. Islam couldn't grab a foothold. I have to think that part of the reason is that Italians, Spanish and Francs love their wine. It was booze that kept Islam out of Europe back then.

Alcohol robs the body of heat. Better off drinking hot water than alcohol in wintry enviroments. And since it's an inhibition suppressor, if you're all bummed because of the weather it's only going to make you more bummed.
 

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