Vietnam in HD

[The Infidel]

I watched this the last 3 nights and I think it will be on H2 tonight as well, but wow what a good show. It was amazing to me that we didnt win a decisive victory.
Had we have fought it like previous wars we would have been out of there in a couple years, but it was the 1st war fought from afar in DC by politicians.
We used a body count to gauge our winnings rather than planting a flag and keeping the high ground.

I was just a baby during that war, but it made an impression on me bc many of my uncles and dads friends served over threre, and they were never the same after it.
Luckily for me, my dad didnt have to go due to a birth defect... but he as labelled for life as a medical risk for the rest of his life and it was hard for him to get a job bc of it.

I know my ex girlfriends dad never spoke of it, except for one day when he and I spent it together working on his 4x4. He told me things he just couldnt tell his wife and daughter. His stories were some of the saddest things I have ever heard. He told me how he had to watch out for kids when in busy cities bc they (like Islamo facists of today) strapped their babies with bombs. He had to kill one and he never got over that. May he rest in peace... he lived a rough life after returning. It was hard for him to handle how he and his friends were treated upon returning stateside.
While watching the night before last, I cried like a baby when one of the soldiers described how they were treated at the airport upon arrival back from the tour. Frankly, so did he.. it was hard for him to speak. I felt so ashamed of my fellow Americans for that.
It was just so wrong, and it is a scar on our history that we should never forget.

To ALL of you veterans, I just want to say thanks for your service.

Please dont rep me for this thread... thats not why it is being posted.
I just have been wanting to post this and thought what better day to do it, than today.

 

[bitterlyclingin]

We lost the war here at home, not on the battlefield. The American soldier, was, is, and always will be, the best on the field. God bless 'em.
God not only endowed this country with fertile land, abundant natural resources, a productive and resourceful citizenry, but from the first, with a citizen soldier that was always watchful and ready to lay down his plow and go off to fight for what was right, his land, his rights, his family, and his country.

Now after THC went off and canceled their discussion website, I refuse to watch their programming.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We lost the war because (1) we took care of the elite in SV and failed to win the hearts and souls of the Vietnamese people, (2) we were unable to eliminate the sanctuaries in Cambodia, Laos, and NV, (3) we could not use tactical nukes because we were afraid of the USSR and China, (4) we could not invade NV because we were afraid of China, and (5) the government lied steadily to the American people.

 

[bitterlyclingin]

You dance around the treason and sedition here at home then: America's most trusted man providing CBS's Good Offices to ferry Edmund Muskie from one anti war speech to another and other services. These were all aided and abetted by KGB infiltrators and Communist Fellow Travelers that the Democratic Party eagerly welcomed into their midst.
All of those varied type political peccadillos in Vietnam took place in one form or another in the various wars that America has fought, but it was the will to continue the fight here at home that brought America down from the collossus that it was on September 2, 1945 to the Second Rate World Power that beckoned Osama bin Laden and lead him to the mistaken conclusion that he could collapse, and bring America to its knees by striking four randomly chosen buildings with four separately comandeered aircraft.
When you leave all the members of the opposing side on the battlefield dead or dying, then you are entitled to declare victory and go home. That's a lesson America sadly forgot, to its detriment, somewhere on the road from September, 1945, to here.
That lesson, intimately known, was never as eloquently stated as in fledgling television's first documentary, ironically produced by NBC, the current media home of Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz and Chris Matthews, "Victory At Sea", "Two If By Sea", March 8, 1953:
"War is the application of force. And to that force, there is no limit, say the philosophers of war!"
But that was when most of the 15 million veterans who had donned the uniforms of the United States most of whom were still alive then, so the media had no choice but to accurately portray what these hard bitten veterans knew as the truth. Not so today. The wool in front of the public's eyes is currently thicker than the glaciers that used to cover Manhattan Island/.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Reply to my five points, then talk about "treason" if you wish. Stay on point.

 

[rightwinger]

You dance around the treason and sedition here at home then: America's most trusted man providing CBS's Good Offices to ferry Edmund Muskie from one anti war speech to another and other services. These were all aided and abetted by KGB infiltrators and Communist Fellow Travelers that the Democratic Party eagerly welcomed into their midst.
All of those varied type political peccadillos in Vietnam took place in one form or another in the various wars that America has fought, but it was the will to continue the fight here at home that brought America down from the collossus that it was on September 2, 1945 to the Second Rate World Power that beckoned Osama bin Laden and lead him to the mistaken conclusion that he could collapse, and bring America to its knees by striking four randomly chosen buildings with four separately comandeered aircraft.
When you leave all the members of the opposing side on the battlefield dead or dying, then you are entitled to declare victory and go home. That's a lesson America sadly forgot, to its detriment, somewhere on the road from September, 1945, to here.
That lesson, intimately known, was never as eloquently stated as in fledgling television's first documentary, ironically produced by NBC, the current media home of Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz and Chris Matthews, "Victory At Sea", "Two If By Sea", March 8, 1953:
"War is the application of force. And to that force, there is no limit, say the philosophers of war!"
But that was when most of the 15 million veterans who had donned the uniforms of the United States most of whom were still alive then, so the media had no choice but to accurately portray what these hard bitten veterans knew as the truth. Not so today. The wool in front of the public's eyes is currently thicker than the glaciers that used to cover Manhattan Island/.

It is not treason to protest a war that 60% of Americans opposed

It is treason to lie to the American people, trump up reasons for war, lie about progress towards victory and ignore the desires of the people

 

[Mr. H.]

I've recorded a few episodes to watch later. Figured the wife wouldn't want to see it with her kid heading back to the 'stan soon.

 

[The Infidel]

I've recorded a few episodes to watch later. Figured the wife wouldn't want to see it with her kid heading back to the 'stan soon.

Yeah... its a tough thing to watch.
I was going to let my mom know it was on, and thought... nahhh, still too painful for her.
Later lastnight I called her and mentioned it to her and I was right. She said no way could she watch it. She lost alot of friends over there.

 

[The Infidel]

It is not treason to protest a war that 60% of Americans opposed

It is treason to lie to the American people, trump up reasons for war, lie about progress towards victory and ignore the desires of the people

Its not treason to protest a war period. You have that right. It does matter HOW you do it though.

I have a feeling I know what you re alluding to, and Im not going there. But you are right, we have a right to protest within the bounds of the law.

The folks who spat on our boys were wrong for that though... their anger was misdirected IMO.

 

[9thIDdoc]

We lost the war because (1) we took care of the elite in SV and failed to win the hearts and souls of the Vietnamese people, (2) we were unable to eliminate the sanctuaries in Cambodia, Laos, and NV, (3) we could not use tactical nukes because we were afraid of the USSR and China, (4) we could not invade NV because we were afraid of China, and (5) the government lied steadily to the American people.

----------
My opinion differs:
(0) We did not lose the war; we were simply not allowed to win it.
(1) Hearts and minds were not important when VC/NVA terrorists had them by the balls. We came far closer to winning hearts and minds than did North Vietnam.
(2) We did in fact succesfully engage whenever, wherever, and to the extent allowed.
(3&4) We? The only people I knew who were much afraid of the USSR or China were some seriously wimpy civilians. I think most GI's wished we would go ahead and take North Vietnam out and be done with it instead of continuing a stratagy that gave all the options to the enemy.
(5) OF COURSE the government lied to the American people. Our government may not have been the brightest bulb in the pack, but they were at least aware that anything released by media was immediately evaluated the enemy.

 

[The Infidel]

We lost the war because (1) we took care of the elite in SV and failed to win the hearts and souls of the Vietnamese people, (2) we were unable to eliminate the sanctuaries in Cambodia, Laos, and NV, (3) we could not use tactical nukes because we were afraid of the USSR and China, (4) we could not invade NV because we were afraid of China, and (5) the government lied steadily to the American people.

----------
My opinion differs:
(0) We did not lose the war; we were simply not allowed to win it.
(1) Hearts and minds were not important when VC/NVA terrorists had them by the balls. We came far closer to winning hearts and minds than did North Vietnam.
(2) We did in fact succesfully engage whenever, wherever, and to the extent allowed.
(3&4) We? The only people I knew who were much afraid of the USSR or China were some seriously wimpy civilians. I think most GI's wished we would go ahead and take North Vietnam out and be done with it instead of continuing a stratagy that gave all the options to the enemy.
(5) OF COURSE the government lied to the American people. Our government may not have been the brightest bulb in the pack, but they were at least aware that anything released by media was immediately evaluated the enemy.

I watched the first episode again on H2 tonight and I agree with everything you just said.
If the gov't (politicians in DC) let the generals on the ground make the decisions on when, what, and where to bomb the outcome wouldve been very different.
If Im not mistaken, this was the 1st war that the politicians made those decisions, and not the military men on the ground.

You guys are the best this country has to offer.... the true 1%ers.

Thanks for your service.

 

[The Infidel]

Operation Rolling Thunder

Operation Rolling Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kiwiman127]

Today is Veterans Day. I'd like to mention that lost my oldest brother in Vietnam as he was just one day away from leaving the place. I still vividly remember the day we got the news and I was just a little boy and that was 43 years ago.
I tried to watch the broadcast but it just brought back memories of the emotional pain that endured in our household. My mother still cries for her first born

 

[Trajan]

We lost the war because (1) we took care of the elite in SV and failed to win the hearts and souls of the Vietnamese people, (2) we were unable to eliminate the sanctuaries in Cambodia, Laos, and NV, (3) we could not use tactical nukes because we were afraid of the USSR and China, (4) we could not invade NV because we were afraid of China, and (5) the government lied steadily to the American people.

we let the south Vietnamese lose the war because; a) we let the Russians fool us inot believing they would broker a settlement in Laos in the late 50's early 60's, keeping the Nor. Viets out, b) did not understand that the Vietnamese people are not Americans, which lead to c) we assassinated Diem.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Today is Veterans Day. I'd like to mention that lost my oldest brother in Vietnam as he was just one day away from leaving the place. I still vividly remember the day we got the news and I was just a little boy and that was 43 years ago.
I tried to watch the broadcast but it just brought back memories of the emotional pain that endured in our household. My mother still cries for her first born

My sympathy to you, kiwiman.

 

[JakeStarkey]

My opinion differs:
(0) We lost the war for the reasons I gave: we were not able to deploy tac nukes, invade NV, or end the sanctuaries.
(1) You contradict your comments on hearts and minds. If we had concentrated more on the average Vietnamese and family, less on the wealthy, we could have turned them away from the VC and NV.
(2) We won every engagement but that was not enough in a war for peoples' allegiance.
(3&4) "We" means the policy and strategy makers. No, we could not do the things you imply without risking WWIII.
(5) Our government lied, not because of our media, but rather it was protecting its own interests.
(6) Final comment: to imply the media was treasonour reflects a lack of understanding of American in war time. Go back and read the Constitution, then look up Declaration of War, then look up the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, then figure out why our media was not traitorous.

 

[editec]

We thought we could fight and win a war against an enemy basing their fight on ideals and nationalism, if we could just get the body count high enough.

I don't know whether we really didn't understand the depth of committment the Viet Namese had to take back their nation, or we just didn't care and thought our military power could defeat an IDEA.

We ought to never have been involved in any war fought against Ho.

In fact we ought to have allied to him when he asked for our aid during WWII.

Instead, because of our need for the FRENCH to bolster NATO, post WWII, we backed the WRONG HORSE.

And I do not just mean wrong because the French couldn't hold VN, I mean MORALLY wrong because we were backing colonialism looooooooooooooooong past the time when that kind of colonialism just wouldn't wash.

FWIW, I think we're making a very similar mistake in Afghanistan today

 

[9thIDdoc]

(0) We lost the war for the reasons I gave: we were not able to deploy tac nukes, invade NV, or end the sanctuaries.

"Not able"? No, we just chose not to, and-except for the nukes-that was exactly what needed to be done.

1) You contradict your comments on hearts and minds. If we had concentrated more on the average Vietnamese and family, less on the wealthy, we could have turned them away from the VC and NV.

Not at all. The vast majority of the cooperation the VC got from the S. Vietnamese was a direct result of coersion. Torture, murder, and rape were their SOP for dealing with the SVN. I'd have to say that the average SVN may not have liked us or their own government all that well but they HATED the VC with good reason.

"We" means the policy and strategy makers.
That's who I was refering to also.

No, we could not do the things you imply without risking WWIII.
There is risk to every option. Small risk in this case. China probably learned better in Korea

(5) Our government lied, not because of our media, but rather it was protecting its own interests.
Disinformation and propaganda have always been a part of warfare and always will be. Get used to it. Alot of folks beieved the blatant communist popaganda.

(6) Final comment: to imply the media was treasonour reflects a lack of understanding of American in war time.

I only implied that our enemies can also read newspapers and watch TV. And I have a far better understanding of America in wartime than I wish I had.

 

[JakeStarkey]

(0) We lost the war for the reasons I gave: we were not able to deploy tac nukes, invade NV, or end the sanctuaries.

"Not able"? No, we just chose not to, and-except for the nukes-that was exactly what needed to be done.

1) You contradict your comments on hearts and minds. If we had concentrated more on the average Vietnamese and family, less on the wealthy, we could have turned them away from the VC and NV.

Not at all. The vast majority of the cooperation the VC got from the S. Vietnamese was a direct result of coersion. Torture, murder, and rape were their SOP for dealing with the SVN. I'd have to say that the average SVN may not have liked us or their own government all that well but they HATED the VC with good reason.

"We" means the policy and strategy makers.
That's who I was refering to also.

No, we could not do the things you imply without risking WWIII.
There is risk to every option. Small risk in this case. China probably learned better in Korea

(5) Our government lied, not because of our media, but rather it was protecting its own interests.
Disinformation and propaganda have always been a part of warfare and always will be. Get used to it. Alot of folks beieved the blatant communist popaganda.

(6) Final comment: to imply the media was treasonour reflects a lack of understanding of American in war time.

I only implied that our enemies can also read newspapers and watch TV. And I have a far better understanding of America in wartime than I wish I had.

We chose not to for the reasons, I gave. Invasion of NV or using tac nukes could have started WWIII. We did not know, at the time, the risk was small. The US planners learned the lesson well about Red China in Korea in doing the unexpected.

You do not understand my comments about hearts and minds. "If we had concentrated more on the average Vietnamese and family, less on the wealthy, we could have turned them away from the VC and NV." We did not concentrate on protecting the South Viets well enough, we kissed the elites ass too much. Oh, and don't kid yourself: the South Vietnamese hated us and Saigon almost as much or as much as they did the communists by the end.

A democratic government in a time of undeclared war lies to its population at its own risk. We the People have the ultimate control, as LBJ and RMN discovered.

Thanks for dropping the treason comments.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We lost the war because (1) we took care of the elite in SV and failed to win the hearts and souls of the Vietnamese people, (2) we were unable to eliminate the sanctuaries in Cambodia, Laos, and NV, (3) we could not use tactical nukes because we were afraid of the USSR and China, (4) we could not invade NV because we were afraid of China, and (5) the government lied steadily to the American people.

we let the south Vietnamese lose the war because; a) we let the Russians fool us inot believing they would broker a settlement in Laos in the late 50's early 60's, keeping the Nor. Viets out, b) did not understand that the Vietnamese people are not Americans, which lead to c) we assassinated Diem.

No to your A, yes to your B, and a qualified yes to your C.