Vatican Cardinal Says We Should Listen To Science

[Bonnie]

Thursday, November 03, 2005

VATICAN CITY — A Vatican (search) cardinal said Thursday the faithful should listen to what secular modern science has to offer, warning that religion risks turning into "fundamentalism" if it ignores scientific reason.

Cardinal Paul Poupard, who heads the Pontifical Council for Culture (search), made the comments at a news conference on a Vatican project to help end the "mutual prejudice" between religion and science that has long bedeviled the Roman Catholic Church and is part of the evolution debate in the United States.

The Vatican project was inspired by Pope John Paul II's 1992 declaration that the church's 17th-century denunciation of Galileo (search) was an error resulting from "tragic mutual incomprehension." Galileo was condemned for supporting Nicolaus Copernicus' (search) discovery that the Earth revolved around the sun; church teaching at the time placed Earth at the center of the universe.

"The permanent lesson that the Galileo case represents pushes us to keep alive the dialogue between the various disciplines, and in particular between theology and the natural sciences, if we want to prevent similar episodes from repeating themselves in the future," Poupard said.

But he said science, too, should listen to religion.


"We know where scientific reason can end up by itself: the atomic bomb and the possibility of cloning human beings are fruit of a reason that wants to free itself from every ethical or religious link," he said.

"But we also know the dangers of a religion that severs its links with reason and becomes prey to fundamentalism," he said.

"The faithful have the obligation to listen to that which secular modern science has to offer, just as we ask that knowledge of the faith be taken in consideration as an expert voice in humanity."

Poupard and others at the news conference were asked about the religion-science debate raging in the United States over evolution and "intelligent design."

Intelligent design's supporters argue that natural selection, an element of evolutionary theory, cannot fully explain the origin of life or the emergence of highly complex life forms.

Monsignor Gianfranco Basti, director of the Vatican project STOQ, or Science, Theology and Ontological Quest, reaffirmed John Paul's 1996 statement that evolution was "more than just a hypothesis."

"A hypothesis asks whether something is true or false," he said. "(Evolution) is more than a hypothesis because there is proof."

He was asked about comments made in July by Austrian Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, who dismissed in a New York Times article the 1996 statement by John Paul (search) as "rather vague and unimportant" and seemed to back intelligent design.

Basti concurred that John Paul's 1996 letter "is not a very clear expression from a definition point of view," but he said evolution was assuming ever more authority as scientific proof develops.

Poupard, for his part, stressed that what was important was that "the universe wasn't made by itself, but has a creator." But he added, "It's important for the faithful to know how science views things to understand better."

The Vatican project STOQ (search) has organized academic courses and conferences on the relationship between science and religion and is hosting its first international conference on "the infinity in science, philosophy and theology," next week.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174489,00.html

Opinions???

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I like the general sentiment. But I'm not a Catholic, so I don't really care.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I like the general sentiment. But I'm not a Catholic, so I don't really care.

I'm not sure I like your attitude.

 

[deaddude]

Yes RWA and you are just a right ray of sunshine, arent you?

As for the Cardinal, good general statement, for both the religious and the scientific

 

[Hagbard Celine]

There needs to be more people like this guy on both sides of this issue.

 

[theHawk]

I never really understood why this is such a hot subject with people. I believe God created life as well as the laws of physics. How he did it exactly is something we will probably never know. Who is to say God didn't create man through evolution?

 

[USViking]

Thursday, November 03, 2005




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174489,00.html

Opinions???

I have admired John Paul II from the start, and I will admire him to the end.
He was a great man of peace.

I do think he comitted a historical inaccuracy when he said the imbroglio
with Galilieo was the result of "mutual distrust" between Galileo and the Church- the truth is that the Church was the only distrusting party.

Didn't he also say the Church erred by straying onto grounds it had no reason to pronounce ukases in, by virtue of its lack of knowledge?


On the other hand,

More recently, science has given religion a gift:


It seems possible the Universe is a one-shot deal:
It may have had an origin with no past; it may have been created.
( yes, it may also have created itself)

Also, science has made no headway, in fact, has made no contribution,
to the questions of the rise of life and intelligence and emotions.

The Roman Catholic Church made a monumental step forward when it renounced St. Augustine, in part, for his more merciful rival, Pelagius:
Baptism is not needed for Salvation.

 

[5stringJeff]

Who is to say God didn't create man through evolution?

Umm... Jesus?

"He[Jesus] answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female..." (Matthew 19:4)

Now I totally agree with you that God designed the physical universe, created all physical laws, etc. But I disagree that God used evolution to create life.

 

[no1tovote4]

Umm... Jesus?

"He[Jesus] answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female..." (Matthew 19:4)

Now I totally agree with you that God designed the physical universe, created all physical laws, etc. But I disagree that God used evolution to create life.

This statement still doesn't exclude the tool of evolution being used to create them.

An analogous statement for a carpenter might be, "He who created them made them night stand and chest of drawers..."

The statement doesn't talk about the tools that the carpenter has used, if you equate evolution as a tool of creation the statement by Christ might still include evolution. Much like the carpenter might have used a hammer or a maul to create his night stand.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I'm not sure I like your attitude.

Well, assure yourself, then let me know what you decided.

 

[Nienna]

I never really understood why this is such a hot subject with people. I believe God created life as well as the laws of physics. How he did it exactly is something we will probably never know. Who is to say God didn't create man through evolution?

GOD said so; if His people would bother to study Genesis, they might have a more definitive answer to this question. I find it particularly sad that a Christian organization like the worldwide Catholic church should choose to put faith in the limited knowledge and observations of human scientists rather than in the all-knowing God who so graciously gave us a first-hand account of His creative process.

 

[theHawk]

This statement still doesn't exclude the tool of evolution being used to create them.

An analogous statement for a carpenter might be, "He who created them made them night stand and chest of drawers..."

The statement doesn't talk about the tools that the carpenter has used, if you equate evolution as a tool of creation the statement by Christ might still include evolution. Much like the carpenter might have used a hammer or a maul to create his night stand.

Thats exactly what I was saying. The Bible doesn't say God's hand came out of the sky and made Man.

Genesis 1
26¶ And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.
28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.

 

[Nienna]

This statement still doesn't exclude the tool of evolution being used to create them.

An analogous statement for a carpenter might be, "He who created them made them night stand and chest of drawers..."

The statement doesn't talk about the tools that the carpenter has used, if you equate evolution as a tool of creation the statement by Christ might still include evolution. Much like the carpenter might have used a hammer or a maul to create his night stand.

The Bible explicitly outlines the creative process.

 

[Nienna]

An addendum to Hawk's post:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Specifically outlines His creative process, gives the order and exact time frame, and His method. He created from His being and will by an act of will: the spoken word.

 

[Avatar4321]

I never really understood why this is such a hot subject with people. I believe God created life as well as the laws of physics. How he did it exactly is something we will probably never know. Who is to say God didn't create man through evolution?

I am. God didn't create man through evolution :teeth:

We happened to be studying creation last night in my religion class. Interesting how the creation timeline is very similiar with regards to both the scriptures and the scientific record.

 

[no1tovote4]

The Bible explicitly outlines the creative process.

In one portion of the Bible it explains that a blink of an eye is 2000 years to God. One day must be a very long time for him. Once again, he spoke a word and then it was done, it still doesn't tell you which tool was used, in other words it can still be done through evolution. Just as the carpenter in my previous post used a hammer in order to put together furniture God could have used evolution.

Now if you are a six day, as in 144 modern hours, person, imagine a tape on fast forward. Do you think an all powerful God might be able, using evolution, to process billions of years of natural evolution in a much shorter period effectively fast forwarding the process, that his will may have set just such a process in motion? Thus leaving a record that scientists might interpret as billions of years, but can still be effectively six days?

 

[Bullypulpit]

I am. God didn't create man through evolution :teeth:

We happened to be studying creation last night in my religion class. Interesting how the creation timeline is very similiar with regards to both the scriptures and the scientific record.

Hmmmm. The scientific record indicates that earth is billions of years old. According to Christian doctrine, however, the earth is only some 6,000 years old. That's some discrepancy...Don'cha think?

 

[no1tovote4]

Hmmmm. The scientific record indicates that earth is billions of years old. According to Christian doctrine, however, the earth is only some 6,000 years old. That's some discrepancy...Don'cha think?

See one post above yours, last paragraph...

 

[Nienna]

In one portion of the Bible it explains that a blink of an eye is 2000 years to God. One day must be a very long time for him.

Actually it says that to God, 1000 years is as a day. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 90;&version=31;
Language us not mathematics. We cannot interpret every instance of the word "day" to equal one thousand years. Like in English, we say "on that day last week," or "in my father's day." Obviously, in the first example, the person is talking about a 24-hour day, and in the second example, the word "day" means a longer period of time, perhaps a lifetime. In the Bible, we cannot use the simple formula 1 day=1000 years. If so, the sun wouldn't have stood still (for Joshua) for 1 day, it would have been 1000 years. Or Jesus wasn't in the tomb for 3 days, it was 3000 years. So when does a day mean 24 hours, and when does it mean a longer period of time? Look to the text for clues. God specifically mentions "morning and evening" for each mention of the word "day," giving it parameters. These days are periods of time between a morning and an evening. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Also, if you read through the entire Psalm, you can see that this is a song of praise, and the phrase "to You, a thousand years is as a day" is not a mathematical formula to be applied to all of Scripture, but rather a tribute to the eternal nature of God.

Once again, he spoke a word and then it was done, it still doesn't tell you which tool was used, in other words it can still be done through evolution. Just as the carpenter in my previous post used a hammer in order to put together furniture God could have used evolution.

I beg to differ. It tells exactly the "tool" God used. His spoken Word. It doesn't imply that any other "tool" was used or that any working time elapsed between the "speaking" and the "existence."

Now if you are a six day, as in 144 modern hours, person, imagine a tape on fast forward. Do you think an all powerful God might be able, using evolution, to process billions of years of natural evolution in a much shorter period effectively fast forwarding the process, that his will may have set just such a process in motion? Thus leaving a record that scientists might interpret as billions of years, but can still be effectively six days?

No doubt about His ability; the doubt seems to be about His honor. He could do whatever He wanted. This is about what He said He did. Is God a liar? Would He mislead His people this way?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Actually it says that to God, 1000 years is as a day. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 90;&version=31;
Language us not mathematics. We cannot interpret every instance of the word "day" to equal one thousand years. Like in English, we say "on that day last week," or "in my father's day." Obviously, in the first example, the person is talking about a 24-hour day, and in the second example, the word "day" means a longer period of time, perhaps a lifetime. In the Bible, we cannot use the simple formula 1 day=1000 years. If so, the sun wouldn't have stood still (for Joshua) for 1 day, it would have been 1000 years. Or Jesus wasn't in the tomb for 3 days, it was 3000 years. So when does a day mean 24 hours, and when does it mean a longer period of time? Look to the text for clues. God specifically mentions "morning and evening" for each mention of the word "day," giving it parameters. These days are periods of time between a morning and an evening. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Also, if you read through the entire Psalm, you can see that this is a song of praise, and the phrase "to You, a thousand years is as a day" is not a mathematical formula to be applied to all of Scripture, but rather a tribute to the eternal nature of God.


I beg to differ. It tells exactly the "tool" God used. His spoken Word. It doesn't imply that any other "tool" was used or that any working time elapsed between the "speaking" and the "existence."


No doubt about His ability; the doubt seems to be about His honor. He could do whatever He wanted. This is about what He said He did. Is God a liar? Would He mislead His people this way?

The story was written over 2000 years ago by smelly, camel-riding desert nomads. Must we continue to analyze it with such tenacity? See it for what it is: A creation fable.