CDZ Variation on "Thompson's Violinist" analogy with POLL

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Chuz Life, Apr 4, 2016.

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Would the person who connects themself to the child be obligated to remain connected to the child?

  1. Yes, they assumed the risk so they would be obligated to keep the child alive for the 9 months.

    83.3%
  2. No, because (give your own explanation)

    16.7%
  1. 320 Years of History
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    320 Years of History Gold Member

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    Even when there isn't a "formal" poll, people here seem disinclined to answer simple questions and be held accountable for their answers. See this thread as another example....What could be easier to respond to and subsequently discuss than a set of questions that asks one to boil one's views down to predominantly "yes" or predominantly "no," thereby answering "yes/no" to the questions and then discussing one's answers as one feels the need to do so?
     
  2. jwoodie
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    jwoodie Gold Member Supporting Member

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    Referencing your own (failed) thread is pathetic. And the questions it contained were, indeed, simplistic.
     
  3. Chuz Life
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    Chuz Life Gold Member

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    Bump, I'm still looking for anyone else's analogies or allegories to a normal , typical pregnancy that results from a consensual act.

    Anyone got one better than mine?
     
  4. Chuz Life
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    Chuz Life Gold Member

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    Necro Bump
     
  5. JakeStarkey
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    JakeStarkey Diamond Member Supporting Member

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    Constitutional precedent is quite clear (today) that the fetus as a person is limited solely by the viability it may have outside the womb and its relationship to its carrier.
     
  6. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    Basic answer:
    Hell no! No rational person should or would anyone feel so obligated by an act of visitation to, as you put it, a "child [that] has no measurable brain waves to indicate any level of self awareness, No ability for thought, No sense of pain, etc." Sh*t sometimes happens when one takes on risk, and other times it does not. If one has done nothing wrong, one need not feel obliged to bear the burden of the misfortune resulting from one's well intentioned deeds.

    Analysis:
    Even when the outcomes are identical, the circumstances leading to the taking a risk and having it not pan out as hoped differ from those of one's deliberately committing to an action for the purpose of achieving the specific outcome.

    Prior to undertaking a given action (or set thereof), A, for the purpose of achieving outcome, O, if one is clear thinking, one will identify the attendant risks of performing A and develop a risk mitigation plan that specifies what legal actions B, C, D, etc. one will follow (1) to prevent the associated risks from becoming manifest, and (2) to attenuate the impact of the risks in the event they materialize into reality.

    One can think and say whatever one wants to say about the individual's election to perform A, thereby assuming the corresponding risk(s) of doing so, but so long as A is permitted, the added burden of A's risks in pursuit of O are merely additional costs of A, and that is not one's business but rather the business of the individual(s) who undertook A.

    Though I'm not familiar with Judith's violin scenario, I can quite plainly see a huge difference between the process by which coitus leads to conception and the sequence of events in the storyline you've presented. I don't know what makes you, or anyone, think I'd see the process flow you've depicted as an analogue for that of coitus, conception, gestation and birth. That is no minor distinction you've introduced into the allegory. Quite simply, a fetus does not exist prior to coitus, the act that corresponds in your story to visitation. Maybe someday I'll read Judith's allegory, but if/when I do so, I sure as hell hope hers is better structured than is yours.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  7. Chuz Life
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    Chuz Life Gold Member

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    Yo
    You have either misunderstood or you have intentionally skewed the analogy... so much so that it's not worth responding to your post in great detail.

    The analogy / poll is not about a "visitation " gone bad. It's about the assumptions of risks, the forseeable consequences of the risks taken and the responsibilities for those affected by the choices (and risks) that were taken or made.

    You can't break into a hospital room and tamper with the equipment and the patients bodies there and call it a "visitation."

    Can you?
     
  8. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    ...And risk is all I wrote about...
    • What brings about the assumption of risk? An action.
    • What is the action that brought about the risks in your scenario? The visitation.
    • Realizing one is about to assume risk, what must one do prior to undertaking the action that may expose one/others to one or several foreseen risks? Plan to mitigate or attenuate the risks should they materialize into reality.
    • What is one's responsibility to a thing that "has no measurable brain waves to indicate any level of self awareness, No ability for thought, No sense of pain, etc." at the outset of the risk predicate and that is adversely affected by the risks one takes? Zero.
    I think we both agree on that part of your comments.
     
  9. Chuz Life
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    Chuz Life Gold Member

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    You are obviously having trouble with my comparison/ allegory.

    If I were try connect your body to mine in such a way that you will die if that connection is broken at any time prior to a nine months cutoff point. . .

    Would you or would you not have the legal right to remain connected to my body for the full nine months.

    Yes or no?

    Yes you would or no, you would not.
     
  10. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    The first words of my original post in this thread directly and unequivocally answered the question you asked. I will repeat both the question I answered and my answer to it:
    [
    I don't have and will not give a different answer, no matter how many times or ways you ask the question. I know exactly what you asked and I know what I think about the situation as you presented it.

    I had no trouble at all with your allegory. I submit that it is you who has trouble with the dissimilarity between the answer you'd give and that which I gave. Perhaps it is you who has trouble with the fact that I don't feel one iota of compassion for a thing that prior to one's acting in any given way "has no measurable brain waves to indicate any level of self awareness, No ability for thought, No sense of pain, etc?" Perhaps it is you who cannot understand that not everyone sees things as you do in a scenario that is, as you put it, about managing risk and the approaches one might adopt in doing so?

    I can't say what exactly it is you don't understand; I cannot read your mind. What I can say is that the answer you got from should not be among the things you don't understand. I cannot be any more clear than "hell no."



    I don't care what you think about my answer or about my ability to comprehend your OP. I didn't give you answer with any expectation that you like my answer. I don't seek your approbation or regard for the limits of my comprehension. I gave my answer. Like it or don't, but accept it or move on either way, because you asked for it and received my very "un-wishy-washy" answer.

    If you are going to ask a question that, upon receiving an answer you don't like and your only retort is to accuse the responder of not understanding something, you perhaps shouldn't have asked the question you did.
     

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