Us Smokers Rule!

[Anguille]

Difference: Bars are private property while the other locations you mention are mostly public property and you have no choice for hospital or school.

I also worked in food service, a long time ago, we had two sections and it worked out fine. Most locations that have been forced by stupid laws infringing on private property have also had to fire a lot of staff and still lose money. Almost no tips compared to before the smoking bans, etc. Some areas where smoking was already low have seen little to no effect, but then most of their patrons were already non-smoking. Leaving up to the owners to choose is the morally correct thing to do, as well as the more legal thing.

Also, second hand smoke numbers are blown WAY out of reality:
YouTube - Bullshit! S1/E5 Second Hand Smoke / Baby Bullshit 1/3
YouTube - Bullshit! S1/E5 Second Hand Smoke / Baby Bullshit 2/3
YouTube - Bullshit! S1/E5 Second Hand Smoke / Baby Bullshit 3/3

On Safety to, for fun:
YouTube - Penn & Teller Bullshit S2E2 Safety Hysteria 3/3
YouTube - Penn & Teller Bullshit S2E2 Safety Hysteria 2/3
YouTube - Penn & Teller Bullshit S2E2 Safety Hysteria 1/3

Do you think that bar employees should be exempt from safety protections that all other employees are entitled too?

 

[KittenKoder]

Shall we just let coal mine owners do away with safety measures too, just because it's a private business?

That is actually different, those are proven dangers.

 

[Anguille]

Or, you can take it to that phantom wave of pink lungers that are always promised to reinvigorate the bar economy but, SHOCKINGLY, never materialize.

Who gives a fuck about the bar economy? If a business can't survive in a changing economy should we be subsidizing it with the health of it's employees?

 

[Anguille]

That is actually different, those are proven dangers.

How so?

 

[KittenKoder]

Do you think that bar employees should be exempt from safety protections that all other employees are entitled too?

*shrugs* From proven dangers, sure, if they have no other choice, sure, but:

1. You can choose to change jobs, never impossible.

2. There is no evidence to state that second hand smoke does anything more than stink ... kind of like perfume ... or BO ... or cars (which by the way, walking down a street with one car and no smokers you are inhaling the same 'harmful' chemicals as cigarettes but in a much higher concentration).

 

[KittenKoder]

How so?

WATCH THE VIDEOS! *hint hint*

 

[Anguille]

*shrugs* From proven dangers, sure, if they have no other choice, sure, but:

1. You can choose to change jobs, never impossible.

2. There is no evidence to state that second hand smoke does anything more than stink ... kind of like perfume ... or BO ... or cars (which by the way, walking down a street with one car and no smokers you are inhaling the same 'harmful' chemicals as cigarettes but in a much higher concentration).

Such lame justifications.

Shall we just let all employers make up their own safety rules and if the employees don't like it, go find another job elsewhere?

Ever heard of asthma, emphysema? Sounds like you are one of those people in denial that cigarette smoke has any harmful effects.

 

[KittenKoder]

Such lame justifications.

Shall we just let all employers make up their own safety rules and if the employees don't like it, go find another job elsewhere?

Ever heard of asthma, emphysema? Sounds like you are one of those people in denial that cigarette smoke has any harmful effects.

Um ... actually those have NOT yet been linked to smokers. The number of people with those problems who smoke are the same percentages as those who don't or have never been near smoke. As a matter of fact, the number of smokers in the US has declined while the number of lung cancer patients continues to climb. Asthma has not changed, it has been around for a long time and has already been determined to be more of a 'born with' disorder and not one that you actually develop later. It is irritated by any smoke, pollution, or pollen, but not just cigarette smoke ALL smoke. Also, mechanics develop emphysema more than smokers, so should autos be outlawed since they are contributing to that problem even more? Again, the actual studies are inconclusive for smokers and show no ill effects for second hand smoke other than the smell. Next ....

 

[Shogun]

Shall we just let coal mine owners do away with safety measures too, just because it's a private business?

gosh.. is there a non-projected, non-masterfully crafted correlation between soot and black lung, ANG? Smoking bans are not safety measure to any degree of your laughable argument. I hand out MSDS forms, Ang.. I can tell you all about the hazards we allow workers to be employed around.

 

[Shogun]

Who gives a fuck about the bar economy? If a business can't survive in a changing economy should we be subsidizing it with the health of it's employees?

well, CLEARLY the fucking BAR OWNERS and previously employed BAR STAFF who no longer have a place to work. Changing economy my ass, Ang. It would NOT change except forced out of business. Employees, AGAIN, are not forced to work at a smokey bar. YOU can take your pink lunger ass down the road to a smoke free bar. Bottom line.

 

[Shogun]

Such lame justifications.

Shall we just let all employers make up their own safety rules and if the employees don't like it, go find another job elsewhere?

Ever heard of asthma, emphysema? Sounds like you are one of those people in denial that cigarette smoke has any harmful effects.

Uh, you do realize that safety policies ARE set by the companies themselves, right? As long as they follow OSHA standards, which are derived from ACTUAL HAZARDS, then it is the company making the rules despite the opinons of the workers?


yes.. go find a job elsewhere. YOu don't like taking your clothes of then you might not want to be a stripper. and don't give me that asthma shit, Ang. I smoke and HAVE ASTHMA. smoking is not the sole cause, or trigger, of asthma attacks. If they are for YOU then take YOURSELF down the road.


it's not denial. It's requiring more evidence than bullshit fabrications by assholes on a mission despite fucking centuries of bars catering to centuries of fucking bar clients. It's not like we have a giant fucking epidemic of bar deaths here, Ang.

 

[KittenKoder]

Is Ang going to watch the tube show I posted and see the facts about it? I hope so.

 

[Anguille]

Um ... actually those have NOT yet been linked to smokers. The number of people with those problems who smoke are the same percentages as those who don't or have never been near smoke. As a matter of fact, the number of smokers in the US has declined while the number of lung cancer patients continues to climb. Asthma has not changed, it has been around for a long time and has already been determined to be more of a 'born with' disorder and not one that you actually develop later. It is irritated by any smoke, pollution, or pollen, but not just cigarette smoke ALL smoke. Also, mechanics develop emphysema more than smokers, so should autos be outlawed since they are contributing to that problem even more? Again, the actual studies are inconclusive for smokers and show no ill effects for second hand smoke other than the smell. Next ....

I had very vivid memories of my brother being rushed to the hospital as a child because my father's cigarette smoke was causing his bronchial tubes to swell up. The doctor's knew even back then that secondhand smoke was dangerous. My own problems from asthma which contrary to what you claim, did start later in life, when I was 23, were caused by secondhand smoke. To claim that asthma is some strange disorder that is something a person is "born with" is another way of avoiding responsibility for harming other people.

Cars should be regulated, and they are to some extent, to prevent poisonous gasses from making people ill. The obvious difference between cars and cigarettes is that cars serve useful purposes and cigarettes serve none.
I'd like to see were you get got the info claiming mechanics have higher rates of emphysema than smokers. I never knew a mechanic who wasn't also a smoker so I'm wondering about that.

But let's just assume for argument's sake, that cigarette smoke does no harm at all and is just an annoyance. Why would you want to annoy people? Why would you think people would put up with it? People who are public nuisances with loud boom boxes or car stereos are dealt with by legal means, why shouldn't smokers?

Since you seem to believe second hand smoke is not harmful, should we repeal all laws preventing smokers from lighting up wherever and whenever they want to?

supermarkets? restaurants? day care centers?

Since you seem to think there is no danger in breathing secondhand smoke I would guess you would think laws banning it in those places also violate the rights of property owners to make their own smoking policies even though their property is a public gathering place.

 

[KittenKoder]

What Causes Asthma?

I see 'MAY be caused by tobacco smoke' and three other 'possible' reasons to develop it, and always at a young age. Also, for irritants the list is HUGE, so big that even they didn't print it all.

Next.

 

[KittenKoder]

I had very vivid memories of my brother being rushed to the hospital as a child because my father's cigarette smoke was causing his bronchial tubes to swell up. The doctor's knew even back then that secondhand smoke was dangerous. My own problems from asthma which contrary to what you claim, did start later in life, when I was 23, were caused by secondhand smoke. To claim that asthma is some strange disorder that is something a person is "born with" is another way of avoiding responsibility for harming other people.

Cars should be regulated, and they are to some extent, to prevent poisonous gasses from making people ill. The obvious difference between cars and cigarettes is that cars serve useful purposes and cigarettes serve none.
I'd like to see were you get got the info claiming mechanics have higher rates of emphysema than smokers. I never knew a mechanic who wasn't also a smoker so I'm wondering about that.

But let's just assume for argument's sake, that cigarette smoke does no harm at all and is just an annoyance. Why would you want to annoy people? Why would you think people would put up with it? People who are public nuisances with loud boom boxes or car stereos are dealt with by legal means, why shouldn't smokers?

Since you seem to believe second hand smoke is not harmful, should we repeal all laws preventing smokers from lighting up wherever and whenever they want to?

supermarkets? restaurants? day care centers?

Since you seem to think there is no danger in breathing secondhand smoke I would guess you would think laws banning it in those places also violate the rights of property owners to make their own smoking policies even though their property is a public gathering place.

Also note, many of those places were 'smoke free' long before there were laws, the laws were added so they could create more controlling laws not because they needed them in the first place ... so again ... next.

 

[Luissa]

The opposite happened in my area. restaurants and bars reported a 15% increase in customers.
In any case, does the means justify the ends? Should those bingo halls have remained places where employees were denied protections so that a charity could benefit?

The bars did see an increase where I live also but all I have to say you shouldn't get a job in a bingo hall where 80% of the people smoke if you have a problem with smoking. And I think those charities benefiting from those business is more important. That is who opened the bingo halls. All three bingo halls in my city going to youth charities because of this law went out of business and the people who worked there lost their jobs.

 

[Anguille]

well, CLEARLY the fucking BAR OWNERS and previously employed BAR STAFF who no longer have a place to work. Changing economy my ass, Ang. It would NOT change except forced out of business. Employees, AGAIN, are not forced to work at a smokey bar. YOU can take your pink lunger ass down the road to a smoke free bar. Bottom line.

So Shogun, do you think we should relax those laws for all business owners?

Remember, for all you crappy logic about personal freedoms and cigarette smoking, every time you light up within breathing distance of anyone else, you have taken away their choice as to whether they they want to be a smoker too. All this talk about freedom is a crock of shit.
Why can't you rationalising smokers just come out and admit that every time you light up and blow smoke in someone's face, you are being an asshole?
I have some sympathy for smokers seeing as I was addicted once myself and know how difficult it is to deny the cravings. Nicotene is a powerful drug. But I don't have any sympathy for smokers who are hypocrites.
Though I do know that drug addled minds are not always capable of rational thought and perhaps not entirely guilty of their crimes.

 

[roomy]

The smoking ban is the best thing that ever happened in the UK.I can understand addicts reluctance to give up their fix but for the life of me I cannot understand why anyone in this day and age would choose to begin smoking.

 

[Anguille]

The bars did see an increase where I live also but all I have to say you shouldn't get a job in a bingo hall where 80% of the people smoke if you have a problem with smoking. And I think those charities benefiting from those business is more important. That is who opened the bingo halls. All three bingo halls in my city going to youth charities because of this law went out of business and the people who worked there lost their jobs.

I'm sure those charities continued to get donations through other means. But Luissa, can you give me a good reason why employees on bingo halls don't deserve the same protections office workers have?
You say don't get a job where people smoke. Suppose you have a choice between working in a smoking environment or not feeding your kids? Suppose second hand smoke didn't really bother you at first but after a while you began to get sick from it and you had to quit and find other work? Why should you lose your job because of someone else's rude behavior?

 

[Shogun]

You know, Ang.. SHS wont both you one bit if you choose to go to a smoke free bar and leave smokers to their smoky bar.