Uri Avnery: The Jews and Ukraine

[georgephillip]

A Jew who's lived longer than the Jewish state expresses his thoughts on the complicated relationship between his nation and Ukraine:

"In my lifetime, Stalin murdered millions of Ukrainians by deliberate starvation.

"As a result, most Ukrainians welcomed the German Wehrmacht in 1941 as liberators.

"It could have been the beginning of a beautiful friendship, but unfortunately Hitler was determined to eradicate the Ukrainian 'Untermenschen', in order to integrate the Ukraine into the German Lebensraum.

"THE RELATIONSHIP between Ukraine and the Jews is no less complicated.

"Some Jewish writers, like Arthur Koestler and Shlomo Sand, believe that the Khazar empire that ruled the Crimea and neighboring territory a thousand years ago, converted to Judaism, and that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from them.

"This would turn us all into Ukrainians. (Many early Zionist leaders indeed came from Ukraine.)

"When Ukraine was a part of the extensive Polish empire, many Polish noblemen took hold of large estates there.

"They employed Jews as their managers.

"Thus the Ukrainian peasants came to look upon the Jews as the agents of their oppressors, and anti-Semitism became part of the national culture of Ukraine.

"As we learned in school, at every turn of Ukrainian history, the Jews were slaughtered. The names of most Ukrainian folk-heroes, leaders and rebels who are revered in their homeland are, in Jewish consciousness, connected with awful pogroms.

Not unlike the new coalition government in Kiev that relied on Neo-Nazi snipers to drive a corrupt, duly elected president from office, BTW.

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[Bloodrock44]

Can you explain your obsession with Jews?

 

[toastman]

What exactly are you trying to tell us George??

Obviously it has something to do with the Jews being evil and whatnot, but I don't really understand the point of this thread ..

 

[Indeependent]

My in-laws went through the Holocaust and the Ukrainians were more than happy to comply with the Nazis.
Undoubtedly, the vast differences in education and culture caused jealousy and hatred towards Jews.

 

[Lipush]

George the hater taking insane Uri Avnery as a source of anything, tells pretty much everything about it.

 

[Roudy]

Can you explain your obsession with Jews?

What's there to explain? He's a mentally ill Jew hater.

 

[georgephillip]

Can you explain your obsession with Jews?

I'm less obsessed with Jews than with your spiritual (SS) brethren:

"The first sympathy goes to the Maidan rebels. (Maidan is an Arab word meaning town square. Curious how it travelled to Kiev. Probably via Istanbul.)

"They want to join the West, enjoy independence and democracy. What’s wrong with that?

"Nothing, except that they have dubious bedfellows.

"Neo-Nazis in their copycat Nazi uniforms, giving the Hitler salute and mouthing anti-Semitic slogans, are not very attractive.

"The encouragement they receive from Western allies, including the odious neocons, is off-putting.

On the other side, Vladimir Putin is also not very prepossessing. It’s the old Russian imperialism all over again."

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[georgephillip]

What exactly are you trying to tell us George??

Obviously it has something to do with the Jews being evil and whatnot, but I don't really understand the point of this thread ..

While some Jews have proven themselves capable of "evil," the overwhelming majority of Jews in Ukraine are at risk today in ways similar to a hundred years ago:

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

"Ukraine.

"It was like the shots that rang out in Sarajevo a hundred years ago.

"The international tranquility was suddenly shattered. The possibility of a major war was in the air.

"Netanyahu’s visit disappeared from the news. Obama, occupied with a historic crisis, just wanted to get rid of him as quickly as possible. Instead of the severe admonition of the Israeli leader, he got away with some hollow compliments. All the wonderful speeches Netanyahu had prepared were left unspeeched. Even his usual triumphant speech at AIPAC evoked no interest.

All because of the upheaval in Kiev."

That upheaval was consummated on February 20th when Neo-Nazi snipers murdered police and opposition supporters alike.

Based on past history, it will be Ukraine's Jews who pay the biggest price.

Eastern Ukraine synagogue hit by firebombs | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

 

[georgephillip]

My in-laws went through the Holocaust and the Ukrainians were more than happy to comply with the Nazis.
Undoubtedly, the vast differences in education and culture caused jealousy and hatred towards Jews.

Many of those Ukrainians who saw Nazis as liberators did so because Stalin deliberately starved millions of Ukrainians to death:

Uri Avnery:

"In my lifetime, Stalin murdered millions of Ukrainians by deliberate starvation.

"As a result, most Ukrainians welcomed the German Wehrmacht in 1941 as liberators. It could have been the beginning of a beautiful friendship, but unfortunately Hitler was determined to eradicate the Ukrainian 'Untermenschen', in order to integrate the Ukraine into the German Lebensraum."

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[georgephillip]

George the hater taking insane Uri Avnery as a source of anything, tells pretty much everything about it.

You definitely deserve your leader:

"BINYAMIN NETANYAHU is very good at making speeches, especially to Jews, neocons and such, who jump up and applaud wildly at everything he says, including that tomorrow the sun will rise in the west.

"The question is: is he good at anything else?

"HIS FATHER, an ultra-ultra-Rightist, once said about him that he is quite unfit to be prime minister, but that he could be a good foreign minister. What he meant was that Binyamin does not have the depth of understanding needed to guide the nation, but that he is good at selling any policy decided upon by a real leader.

"(Reminding us of the characterization of Abba Eban by David Ben-Gurion: 'He is very good at explaining, but you must tell him what to explain.')

"This week Netanyahu was summoned to Washington..."

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[Roudy]

George's brethren:

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

George's IslamoNazi brethren praying:

Hey George remember this brethren?

Do you have this picture of your IslamoNazi Brethern best friends of Hitler, in your living room?

And here is the flag of IslamoNazism. Comrade in arms?

Oh well, the apple doesn't fall from the tree, does it?

 

[Sally]

George's brethren:

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

George's IslamoNazi brethren praying:

Hey George remember this brethren?

Do you have this picture of your IslamoNazi Brethern best friends of Hitler, in your living room?

And here is the flag of IslamoNazism. Comrade in arms?

Oh well, the apple doesn't fall from the tree, does it?

Another thing we have to remember, Roudy, is that many of these Ukrainians and others who have emigrated here to America are doing much, much better than native-born Americans who are living in one-room susidizefd apartments. I think we realize by now that some people need a scapegoat in their lives because of their inability to get ahead; and since the Jews are small in number, they are chosen as the scapegoats.

 

[georgephillip]

George's brethren:

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

George's IslamoNazi brethren praying:

Hey George remember this brethren?

Do you have this picture of your IslamoNazi Brethern best friends of Hitler, in your living room?

And here is the flag of IslamoNazism. Comrade in arms?

Oh well, the apple doesn't fall from the tree, does it?

Try to stay on topic, Nutcase:

"As we learned in school, at every turn of Ukrainian history, the Jews were slaughtered. The names of most Ukrainian folk-heroes, leaders and rebels who are revered in their homeland are, in Jewish consciousness, connected with awful pogroms.

"Cossack Hetman (leader) Bohdan Khmelnytsky, who liberated Ukraine from the Polish yoke, and who is considered by Ukrainians as the father of their nation, was one of the worst mass-murderers in Jewish history.

"Symon Petliura, who led the Ukrainian war against the Bolsheviks after World War I, was assassinated by a Jewish avenger.

"Some elderly Jewish immigrants in Israel must find it hard to decide whom to hate more, the Ukrainians or the Russians (or the Poles, for that matter.)

"PEOPLE AROUND the world find it also hard to choose sides.

"The usual Cold-War zealots have it easy – they either hate the Americans or the Russians, out of habit.

"As for me, the more I try to study the situation, the more unsure I become.

"This is not a black-or-white situation.

"The first sympathy goes to the Maidan rebels. (Maidan is an Arab word meaning town square. Curious how it travelled to Kiev. Probably via Istanbul.)

"They want to join the West, enjoy independence and democracy.

"What’s wrong with that?

"Nothing, except that they have dubious bedfellows.

"Neo-Nazis in their copycat Nazi uniforms, giving the Hitler salute and mouthing anti-Semitic slogans, are not very attractive. The encouragement they receive from Western allies, including the odious neocons, is off-putting."

Whose dog are you backing in Ukraine, Neo-Con?

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[Sally]

George's brethren:

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

George's IslamoNazi brethren praying:

Hey George remember this brethren?

Do you have this picture of your IslamoNazi Brethern best friends of Hitler, in your living room?

And here is the flag of IslamoNazism. Comrade in arms?

Oh well, the apple doesn't fall from the tree, does it?

Try to stay on topic, Nutcase:

"As we learned in school, at every turn of Ukrainian history, the Jews were slaughtered. The names of most Ukrainian folk-heroes, leaders and rebels who are revered in their homeland are, in Jewish consciousness, connected with awful pogroms.

"Cossack Hetman (leader) Bohdan Khmelnytsky, who liberated Ukraine from the Polish yoke, and who is considered by Ukrainians as the father of their nation, was one of the worst mass-murderers in Jewish history.

"Symon Petliura, who led the Ukrainian war against the Bolsheviks after World War I, was assassinated by a Jewish avenger.

"Some elderly Jewish immigrants in Israel must find it hard to decide whom to hate more, the Ukrainians or the Russians (or the Poles, for that matter.)

"PEOPLE AROUND the world find it also hard to choose sides.

"The usual Cold-War zealots have it easy – they either hate the Americans or the Russians, out of habit.

"As for me, the more I try to study the situation, the more unsure I become.

"This is not a black-or-white situation.

"The first sympathy goes to the Maidan rebels. (Maidan is an Arab word meaning town square. Curious how it travelled to Kiev. Probably via Istanbul.)

"They want to join the West, enjoy independence and democracy.

"What’s wrong with that?

"Nothing, except that they have dubious bedfellows.

"Neo-Nazis in their copycat Nazi uniforms, giving the Hitler salute and mouthing anti-Semitic slogans, are not very attractive. The encouragement they receive from Western allies, including the odious neocons, is off-putting."

Whose dog are you backing in Ukraine, Neo-Con?

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Before you call another poster a "nutcase," perhaps you should tell the readers why you originally posted the Leftist Jew's article on the Middle East forum. especially when you have had nothing to say on that forum about all the innocent people being murdered in Middle East countries. Apparently those 100,000 plus dead in Syria are nothing to you because you can't blame their deaths on the Jews.

 

[Roudy]

George's brethren:

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage

George's IslamoNazi brethren praying:

Hey George remember this brethren?

Do you have this picture of your IslamoNazi Brethern best friends of Hitler, in your living room?

And here is the flag of IslamoNazism. Comrade in arms?

Oh well, the apple doesn't fall from the tree, does it?

Try to stay on topic, Nutcase:

"As we learned in school, at every turn of Ukrainian history, the Jews were slaughtered. The names of most Ukrainian folk-heroes, leaders and rebels who are revered in their homeland are, in Jewish consciousness, connected with awful pogroms.

"Cossack Hetman (leader) Bohdan Khmelnytsky, who liberated Ukraine from the Polish yoke, and who is considered by Ukrainians as the father of their nation, was one of the worst mass-murderers in Jewish history.

"Symon Petliura, who led the Ukrainian war against the Bolsheviks after World War I, was assassinated by a Jewish avenger.

"Some elderly Jewish immigrants in Israel must find it hard to decide whom to hate more, the Ukrainians or the Russians (or the Poles, for that matter.)

"PEOPLE AROUND the world find it also hard to choose sides.

"The usual Cold-War zealots have it easy – they either hate the Americans or the Russians, out of habit.

"As for me, the more I try to study the situation, the more unsure I become.

"This is not a black-or-white situation.

"The first sympathy goes to the Maidan rebels. (Maidan is an Arab word meaning town square. Curious how it travelled to Kiev. Probably via Istanbul.)

"They want to join the West, enjoy independence and democracy.

"What’s wrong with that?

"Nothing, except that they have dubious bedfellows.

"Neo-Nazis in their copycat Nazi uniforms, giving the Hitler salute and mouthing anti-Semitic slogans, are not very attractive. The encouragement they receive from Western allies, including the odious neocons, is off-putting."

Whose dog are you backing in Ukraine, Neo-Con?

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

I'm not the one that mentioned the following stupid comment, being totally ignorant of history and Muslim ties to nazis.

I'm less obsessed with Jews than with your spiritual (SS) brethren:

Having a hard time dealing with it? Good.

 

[georgephillip]

"Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler.

"By 1940-41, the 'Stern Gang,' among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the 'Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany.'

"Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

“The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that..."

Sieg Heil, Shamir

51 Documents » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[editec]

Can you explain your obsession with Jews?

I'm less obsessed with Jews than with your spiritual (SS) brethren:

"The first sympathy goes to the Maidan rebels. (Maidan is an Arab word meaning town square. Curious how it travelled to Kiev. Probably via Istanbul.)

"They want to join the West, enjoy independence and democracy. What’s wrong with that?

"Nothing, except that they have dubious bedfellows.

"Neo-Nazis in their copycat Nazi uniforms, giving the Hitler salute and mouthing anti-Semitic slogans, are not very attractive.

"The encouragement they receive from Western allies, including the odious neocons, is off-putting.

On the other side, Vladimir Putin is also not very prepossessing. It’s the old Russian imperialism all over again."

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

I confess that I too cannot find a side to root for in this conflict.

I have no faith that the people currently seeking control over the Ukraine are truly interested in the well being of the Ukrainian people.

Likewise I have no confidence that PUTIN's interest is protecting the Russians who live in Ukraine, either.

I think this is, as most conflicts are, a battle for resources and power by totalitarians.

Now some people believe that the WEST is controlled by the ZOG government (meaning some combination of Americo-Anglo-Zionists.)

I have no insider infor to determine who are the MASTERS but I believe the evidence of the MASTERS existence is found in every conflict we've find ourselves involved with for the last century or so.

In nearly every case the USA's involvement does not serve this Republic in any direct and obvious way.

Serving international corporations (that may or may not have Americans as customers) is not in my opinion, the same thing as serving this Republic.

 

[Roudy]

"Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler.

"By 1940-41, the 'Stern Gang,' among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the 'Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany.'

"Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

“The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that..."

Sieg Heil, Shamir

51 Documents » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Poor George the curious monkey. He thinks Jews giving up their citizenship and escaping with only their lives from the nazi death camps is considered the same as the what the Muslims did during WWII. Pathetic.

 

[Roudy]

There is no confusion which side to take here. Russia has invaded a sovereign nation, even after it agreed to not do that in writing, in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nukes.

Sure, have Ukraine, Russia, Germany, Austria, Poland, Japan, and many other nations had demons in their past? Yes. Do all of them need to get invaded because if it?

There is no evidence of "Neo Nazis in Ukraine" or Russians being attacked by Ukrainians. These are all lies perpetrated by the Russians to justify an invasion of another country. Plain and simple.

What if anything can and should the US do about it? Not too many options at this point, had we not had a president who projected weakness and indecision throughout the world, the last 6 years. Russia just saw an opening and opportunity and made its move. No nation is afraid of the US at this point. All of America's enemies, N. Korea, Iran, China etc. are going to make their big moves in the next year or two. War is in the forecast, unfortunately.

 

[georgephillip]

Can you explain your obsession with Jews?

I'm less obsessed with Jews than with your spiritual (SS) brethren:

"The first sympathy goes to the Maidan rebels. (Maidan is an Arab word meaning town square. Curious how it travelled to Kiev. Probably via Istanbul.)

"They want to join the West, enjoy independence and democracy. What’s wrong with that?

"Nothing, except that they have dubious bedfellows.

"Neo-Nazis in their copycat Nazi uniforms, giving the Hitler salute and mouthing anti-Semitic slogans, are not very attractive.

"The encouragement they receive from Western allies, including the odious neocons, is off-putting.

On the other side, Vladimir Putin is also not very prepossessing. It’s the old Russian imperialism all over again."

Israel and Ukraine » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

I confess that I too cannot find a side to root for in this conflict.

I have no faith that the people currently seeking control over the Ukraine are truly interested in the well being of the Ukrainian people.

Likewise I have no confidence that PUTIN's interest is protecting the Russians who live in Ukraine, either.

I think this is, as most conflicts are, a battle for resources and power by totalitarians.

Now some people believe that the WEST is controlled by the ZOG government (meaning some combination of Americo-Anglo-Zionists.)

I have no insider infor to determine who are the MASTERS but I believe the evidence of the MASTERS existence is found in every conflict we've find ourselves involved with for the last century or so.

In nearly every case the USA's involvement does not serve this Republic in any direct and obvious way.

Serving international corporations (that may or may not have Americans as customers) is not in my opinion, the same thing as serving this Republic.

Ukraine is between Russia and a Hard Place.
Apparently, a majority of Ukrainian oligarchs feel they'll be more successful at looting their population with the IMF controlling the loans than with Putin. Authoritarians from DC to Damascus are celebrating, but it's hard to imagine Russian nationalists tolerating a US-inspired coup on their western borders.