University of Guantanamo Bay Torture

[PoliticalChic]

Congratulations to the Navy SEAL who shot Osama Bin Laden!

And while it closed one door, it re-opened another: the question of enhanced interrogation, such as waterboarding.

Donald Rumsfeld in a recent interview with Sean Hannity made it absolutely clear that strong interrogation techniques were used to obtain important information that led to the eventual assassination of Bin Laden!

RUMSFELD: Well, that’s my understanding. And I think that anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques, let’s be blunt, waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn’t facing the truth. The facts are, General Mike Hayden came in, he had no connection with waterboarding anybody. He looked at all the evidence and concluded that a major fraction of the intelligence in our country on al Qaeda came from individuals, the three, only three people who were waterboarded.

But “President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture and that the information it gained from terror suspects could have been obtained by other means. ‘In some cases, it may be harder,’ he conceded at a White House news conference capping a whirlwind first 100 days in office.”

So, it seems, logic, and evidence of effectiveness, have no impact on the thinking of the naysayers, let’s see if this comparison does…

First, we have the New York Times outline of torture techniques.

And below, is pretty much the way I remember what the left calls ‘torture.’

1. Walling(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“A flexible false wall will be constructed. The individual is placed with his heels touching the wall: The interrogator pulls the individual forward and then quickly and firmly pushes the individual into the wall. It is the individual’s shoulder blades that hit the wall.”

Anyone who’s been at a Lady Gaga concert or shoe sale at Bloomingdale’s has been through this one. Any permanent injuries?

2. The Facial (or Insult) Slap(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“With the facial slap or insult slap, the interrogator slaps the individual’s face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual’s personal space.”

This one is a toughie, since women today will put up with any behavior, but you guys who have gone with ladies, may have had to contend with this ‘torture.’

3. Insects Placed in a Confinement Box & Cramped Confinement(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“You [the CIA] would like to place [Abu] Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us [the Department of Justice] that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpiller in the box with him.”

There was the time we took a cabin in the woods. Yes, I was exposed to this horrid torture as well!

“With respect to the small confinement box, you have informed us that he would spend at most two hours in this box… For the larger box, in which he can both stand and sit, he may be placed in this box for up to eighteen hours at a time…”

It is also known by it’s alternate title: the dreaded ‘college dorm room!’ In some of the dorm rooms in Columbia, you actually had to have the door open to fit the bed. I kid you not.

5. Dietary Manipuation(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“this technique involves the substitution of commercial liquid meal replacements for normal food, presenting detainees with a bland, unappetizing, but nutritionally complete diet.”

Now, this is torture. I remember after the first two weeks of staying up until 3 in the morning and eating nothing but junk food, I became quickly acquainted with the ‘freshman 10.’ You know what came next: the living hell of Slim Fast!

Plus, I didn’t get any medical personnel, although there was this cute pre-med soph…

6. Nudity(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“This technique is used to cause psychological discomfort, particularly if a detainee, for cultural or other reasons, is especially modest. When the technique is employed, clothing can be provided as a instant reward for cooperation… Interrogators can exploit the detainee’s fear of being seen naked.”

No details here, but I will tell you that at Vassar, we had co-ed bathrooms and showers.

7. Abdominal Slap(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“In this technique, the interrogator strikes the abdomen of the detainee with the back of his open hand. The interrogator must have no rings or other jewelry on his hand. The interrogator is positioned directly in front of the detainee, generally no more than 18 inches from the detainees. With his fingers held tightly together and fully extended, and with his palm toward the interrogator slaps the detainee in the detainee’s abdoment. The interrogator may not use a fist, and the slap must be delivered above the navel and below the sternum.”

Dreadful! Why, this is almost as bad as Dodge Ball!

8. Water Dousing and ‘Flicking’(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“Cold water is poured on the detainee either from a container or from a hose without a nozzle.”

Do you have an older brother? Need I say more?

“…you have also described a variation of water dousing involving much smaller quantities of water; this variation is known as ‘flicking.’ Flicking of water is achieved by the interrogator wetting his fingers and then flicking them at the detainee, propelling droplets at the detainee.”

9. Sleep Deprivation (more than 48 hours)
(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

I get the heebie-jeebies just thinking of those No-Doz days, and nights.

“…In lieu of standing sleep deprivation, a detainee may instead by seated on and shackled to a small stoo. The stool supports the detainee’s weight, but is too small to permit the subject to balance himself sufficiently to go to sleep…”

I’ve been in college lectures in similar situations.

10. Waterboarding(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)
“Finally, you would like to use a technique called the ‘waterboard.’ …airflow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds.”

Here is the biggie, waterboarding, as we call it, Chug-a-Lug:


Wow, kind of reminds you of that line from Pulp Fiction, “You hear me talking, hillbilly boy? I aint through with you by a damn sight. I’m a get medieval on yer ass.”

Is it possible that we have define ‘torture’ down to this level? I think not. Those claiming it’s torture are simply the same anti-war, America-hating liberals with a Bush Derangement Syndrome, hiding behind some feigned righteous indignation as a strategy to impede the success of American policy, in the hopes of another Vietnam debacle.

Winston Churchill famously said, “We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.”

Little did he suspect that we would, instead, became a nation of girly- men.

 

[Mad Scientist]

The White House can't even get their story straight about how the mission went down. But we're supposed to believe, take it on faith, that they got critical info from "enhanced interrogation techniques"?

I don't believe it. I can't believe it.

 

[Bfgrn]

Congratulations to the Navy SEAL who shot Osama Bin Laden!

And while it closed one door, it re-opened another: the question of enhanced interrogation, such as waterboarding.

Donald Rumsfeld in a recent interview with Sean Hannity made it absolutely clear that strong interrogation techniques were used to obtain important information that led to the eventual assassination of Bin Laden!

RUMSFELD: Well, that’s my understanding. And I think that anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques, let’s be blunt, waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn’t facing the truth. The facts are, General Mike Hayden came in, he had no connection with waterboarding anybody. He looked at all the evidence and concluded that a major fraction of the intelligence in our country on al Qaeda came from individuals, the three, only three people who were waterboarded.

But “President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture and that the information it gained from terror suspects could have been obtained by other means. ‘In some cases, it may be harder,’ he conceded at a White House news conference capping a whirlwind first 100 days in office.”

So, it seems, logic, and evidence of effectiveness, have no impact on the thinking of the naysayers, let’s see if this comparison does…

First, we have the New York Times outline of torture techniques.

And below, is pretty much the way I remember what the left calls ‘torture.’

1. Walling(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“A flexible false wall will be constructed. The individual is placed with his heels touching the wall: The interrogator pulls the individual forward and then quickly and firmly pushes the individual into the wall. It is the individual’s shoulder blades that hit the wall.”

Anyone who’s been at a Lady Gaga concert or shoe sale at Bloomingdale’s has been through this one. Any permanent injuries?

2. The Facial (or Insult) Slap(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“With the facial slap or insult slap, the interrogator slaps the individual’s face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual’s personal space.”

This one is a toughie, since women today will put up with any behavior, but you guys who have gone with ladies, may have had to contend with this ‘torture.’

3. Insects Placed in a Confinement Box & Cramped Confinement(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“You [the CIA] would like to place [Abu] Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us [the Department of Justice] that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpiller in the box with him.”

There was the time we took a cabin in the woods. Yes, I was exposed to this horrid torture as well!

“With respect to the small confinement box, you have informed us that he would spend at most two hours in this box… For the larger box, in which he can both stand and sit, he may be placed in this box for up to eighteen hours at a time…”

It is also known by it’s alternate title: the dreaded ‘college dorm room!’ In some of the dorm rooms in Columbia, you actually had to have the door open to fit the bed. I kid you not.

5. Dietary Manipuation(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“this technique involves the substitution of commercial liquid meal replacements for normal food, presenting detainees with a bland, unappetizing, but nutritionally complete diet.”

Now, this is torture. I remember after the first two weeks of staying up until 3 in the morning and eating nothing but junk food, I became quickly acquainted with the ‘freshman 10.’ You know what came next: the living hell of Slim Fast!

Plus, I didn’t get any medical personnel, although there was this cute pre-med soph…

6. Nudity(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“This technique is used to cause psychological discomfort, particularly if a detainee, for cultural or other reasons, is especially modest. When the technique is employed, clothing can be provided as a instant reward for cooperation… Interrogators can exploit the detainee’s fear of being seen naked.”

No details here, but I will tell you that at Vassar, we had co-ed bathrooms and showers.

7. Abdominal Slap(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“In this technique, the interrogator strikes the abdomen of the detainee with the back of his open hand. The interrogator must have no rings or other jewelry on his hand. The interrogator is positioned directly in front of the detainee, generally no more than 18 inches from the detainees. With his fingers held tightly together and fully extended, and with his palm toward the interrogator slaps the detainee in the detainee’s abdoment. The interrogator may not use a fist, and the slap must be delivered above the navel and below the sternum.”

Dreadful! Why, this is almost as bad as Dodge Ball!

8. Water Dousing and ‘Flicking’(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“Cold water is poured on the detainee either from a container or from a hose without a nozzle.”

Do you have an older brother? Need I say more?

“…you have also described a variation of water dousing involving much smaller quantities of water; this variation is known as ‘flicking.’ Flicking of water is achieved by the interrogator wetting his fingers and then flicking them at the detainee, propelling droplets at the detainee.”

9. Sleep Deprivation (more than 48 hours)
(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

I get the heebie-jeebies just thinking of those No-Doz days, and nights.

“…In lieu of standing sleep deprivation, a detainee may instead by seated on and shackled to a small stoo. The stool supports the detainee’s weight, but is too small to permit the subject to balance himself sufficiently to go to sleep…”

I’ve been in college lectures in similar situations.

10. Waterboarding(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)
“Finally, you would like to use a technique called the ‘waterboard.’ …airflow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds.”

Here is the biggie, waterboarding, as we call it, Chug-a-Lug:


Wow, kind of reminds you of that line from Pulp Fiction, “You hear me talking, hillbilly boy? I aint through with you by a damn sight. I’m a get medieval on yer ass.”

Is it possible that we have define ‘torture’ down to this level? I think not. Those claiming it’s torture are simply the same anti-war, America-hating liberals with a Bush Derangement Syndrome, hiding behind some feigned righteous indignation as a strategy to impede the success of American policy, in the hopes of another Vietnam debacle.

Winston Churchill famously said, “We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.”

Little did he suspect that we would, instead, became a nation of girly- men.

Hey PC, you right wing fanatics can defend torture all you want, but at least own up to who and what you are. Fascism and authoritarianism will never be spawned from liberalism, it resides solely on the right.

 

[Bfgrn]

Here is the man who headed the team of interrogators who successfully hunted down Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq and the mastermind of the campaign of suicide bombings that had helped plunge Iraq into civil war.

A) Torture doesn't work

"Torture is extremely ineffective, and it's counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish," he told reporters. "When we torture somebody, it hardens their resolve," Alexander explained. "The information that you get is unreliable ... And even if you do get reliable information, you're able to stop a terrorist attack, Al-Qaeda's then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members." Alexander says torture techniques used in Iraq consistently failed to produce actionable intelligence and that methods outlined in the US Army Field Manual, which rest on confidence building, consistently worked and gave the interrogators access to critical information.

B) Torture and abuse cost American lives.

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

 

[Sunni Man]

Before 911 America took the high road when it came to law and justice.

Even my Arab friends would say that they admired our system of justice.

But after 911 the same people told me America was no different than any other third world dictatorship.

Because now we also tortured people and put them in prison for years without any charges being filed.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Congratulations to the Navy SEAL who shot Osama Bin Laden!

And while it closed one door, it re-opened another: the question of enhanced interrogation, such as waterboarding.

Donald Rumsfeld in a recent interview with Sean Hannity made it absolutely clear that strong interrogation techniques were used to obtain important information that led to the eventual assassination of Bin Laden!

RUMSFELD: Well, that’s my understanding. And I think that anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques, let’s be blunt, waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn’t facing the truth. The facts are, General Mike Hayden came in, he had no connection with waterboarding anybody. He looked at all the evidence and concluded that a major fraction of the intelligence in our country on al Qaeda came from individuals, the three, only three people who were waterboarded.

But “President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture and that the information it gained from terror suspects could have been obtained by other means. ‘In some cases, it may be harder,’ he conceded at a White House news conference capping a whirlwind first 100 days in office.”

So, it seems, logic, and evidence of effectiveness, have no impact on the thinking of the naysayers, let’s see if this comparison does…

First, we have the New York Times outline of torture techniques.

And below, is pretty much the way I remember what the left calls ‘torture.’

1. Walling(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“A flexible false wall will be constructed. The individual is placed with his heels touching the wall: The interrogator pulls the individual forward and then quickly and firmly pushes the individual into the wall. It is the individual’s shoulder blades that hit the wall.”

Anyone who’s been at a Lady Gaga concert or shoe sale at Bloomingdale’s has been through this one. Any permanent injuries?

2. The Facial (or Insult) Slap(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“With the facial slap or insult slap, the interrogator slaps the individual’s face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual’s personal space.”

This one is a toughie, since women today will put up with any behavior, but you guys who have gone with ladies, may have had to contend with this ‘torture.’

3. Insects Placed in a Confinement Box & Cramped Confinement(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“You [the CIA] would like to place [Abu] Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us [the Department of Justice] that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpiller in the box with him.”

There was the time we took a cabin in the woods. Yes, I was exposed to this horrid torture as well!

“With respect to the small confinement box, you have informed us that he would spend at most two hours in this box… For the larger box, in which he can both stand and sit, he may be placed in this box for up to eighteen hours at a time…”

It is also known by it’s alternate title: the dreaded ‘college dorm room!’ In some of the dorm rooms in Columbia, you actually had to have the door open to fit the bed. I kid you not.

5. Dietary Manipuation(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“this technique involves the substitution of commercial liquid meal replacements for normal food, presenting detainees with a bland, unappetizing, but nutritionally complete diet.”

Now, this is torture. I remember after the first two weeks of staying up until 3 in the morning and eating nothing but junk food, I became quickly acquainted with the ‘freshman 10.’ You know what came next: the living hell of Slim Fast!

Plus, I didn’t get any medical personnel, although there was this cute pre-med soph…

6. Nudity(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“This technique is used to cause psychological discomfort, particularly if a detainee, for cultural or other reasons, is especially modest. When the technique is employed, clothing can be provided as a instant reward for cooperation… Interrogators can exploit the detainee’s fear of being seen naked.”

No details here, but I will tell you that at Vassar, we had co-ed bathrooms and showers.

7. Abdominal Slap(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“In this technique, the interrogator strikes the abdomen of the detainee with the back of his open hand. The interrogator must have no rings or other jewelry on his hand. The interrogator is positioned directly in front of the detainee, generally no more than 18 inches from the detainees. With his fingers held tightly together and fully extended, and with his palm toward the interrogator slaps the detainee in the detainee’s abdoment. The interrogator may not use a fist, and the slap must be delivered above the navel and below the sternum.”

Dreadful! Why, this is almost as bad as Dodge Ball!

8. Water Dousing and ‘Flicking’(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“Cold water is poured on the detainee either from a container or from a hose without a nozzle.”

Do you have an older brother? Need I say more?

“…you have also described a variation of water dousing involving much smaller quantities of water; this variation is known as ‘flicking.’ Flicking of water is achieved by the interrogator wetting his fingers and then flicking them at the detainee, propelling droplets at the detainee.”

9. Sleep Deprivation (more than 48 hours)
(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

I get the heebie-jeebies just thinking of those No-Doz days, and nights.

“…In lieu of standing sleep deprivation, a detainee may instead by seated on and shackled to a small stoo. The stool supports the detainee’s weight, but is too small to permit the subject to balance himself sufficiently to go to sleep…”

I’ve been in college lectures in similar situations.

10. Waterboarding(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)
“Finally, you would like to use a technique called the ‘waterboard.’ …airflow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds.”

Here is the biggie, waterboarding, as we call it, Chug-a-Lug:


Wow, kind of reminds you of that line from Pulp Fiction, “You hear me talking, hillbilly boy? I aint through with you by a damn sight. I’m a get medieval on yer ass.”

Is it possible that we have define ‘torture’ down to this level? I think not. Those claiming it’s torture are simply the same anti-war, America-hating liberals with a Bush Derangement Syndrome, hiding behind some feigned righteous indignation as a strategy to impede the success of American policy, in the hopes of another Vietnam debacle.

Winston Churchill famously said, “We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.”

Little did he suspect that we would, instead, became a nation of girly- men.

Hey PC, you right wing fanatics can defend torture all you want, but at least own up to who and what you are. Fascism and authoritarianism will never be spawned from liberalism, it resides solely on the right.

There was no torture, merely 'enhanced interrogation.' See the OP.

The French Revolution and the Enlightenment gave rise to the totalitarian philosophies such as fascism, communism...and liberalism.

These are the philosophies that use coercion and force to accomplish their goals, that champion the 'general will' embodied in government, over the rights of the individual.

The French Revolution, the first fascist movement(The political terms "Right" and "Left" were born in the French Revolution, when two different revolutionary factions took seats in the French National Assembly's hall: the Girondins on the right wing and the Jacobins on the left wing.)

1. It was totalitarian, nationalist, conspiratorial, and populist, the origin of the revolutionary tradition of the left.

a. While the American Revolution, essentially conservative, and served as a paradigm for the American right and classical liberals, the left sees its model in the Jacobins.
2. Produced the first modern dictators, Robespierre and Napoleon

3. Based on the premise that the nation had to be ruled by an enlightened avant-garde who represented the ‘general will.’

4. Jacobin mentality made the revolutionaries more savage and cruel than the king they replaced. Some 50,000 died in the Terror (1793-1794)

5. [Robespierre] “is the prototype of a particularly odious kind of evildoer: the ideologue who believes that reason and morality are on the side of his butcheries. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot are of the same mold. They are the characteristic scourges of humanity in modern times, but Robespierre has a good claim to being the first.” Why Robespierre Chose Terror by John Kekes, City Journal Spring 2006

6. Robespierre: We must exterminate all our enemies, see the modern Democrat Party, and 'the politics of personal destruction.'

7. Robespierre: “The people is always worth more than individuals…The people is sublime, but individuals are weak” or expendable. http://www.nationalaffairs.com/docl...hvsthefrenchenlightmentgertrudehimmelfarb.pdf

 

[PoliticalChic]

Here is the man who headed the team of interrogators who successfully hunted down Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq and the mastermind of the campaign of suicide bombings that had helped plunge Iraq into civil war.

A) Torture doesn't work

"Torture is extremely ineffective, and it's counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish," he told reporters. "When we torture somebody, it hardens their resolve," Alexander explained. "The information that you get is unreliable ... And even if you do get reliable information, you're able to stop a terrorist attack, Al-Qaeda's then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members." Alexander says torture techniques used in Iraq consistently failed to produce actionable intelligence and that methods outlined in the US Army Field Manual, which rest on confidence building, consistently worked and gave the interrogators access to critical information.

B) Torture and abuse cost American lives.

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

Ask bin Laden.

 

[del]

Congratulations to the Navy SEAL who shot Osama Bin Laden!

And while it closed one door, it re-opened another: the question of enhanced interrogation, such as waterboarding.

Donald Rumsfeld in a recent interview with Sean Hannity made it absolutely clear that strong interrogation techniques were used to obtain important information that led to the eventual assassination of Bin Laden!

RUMSFELD: Well, that’s my understanding. And I think that anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques, let’s be blunt, waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn’t facing the truth. The facts are, General Mike Hayden came in, he had no connection with waterboarding anybody. He looked at all the evidence and concluded that a major fraction of the intelligence in our country on al Qaeda came from individuals, the three, only three people who were waterboarded.

But “President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture and that the information it gained from terror suspects could have been obtained by other means. ‘In some cases, it may be harder,’ he conceded at a White House news conference capping a whirlwind first 100 days in office.”

So, it seems, logic, and evidence of effectiveness, have no impact on the thinking of the naysayers, let’s see if this comparison does…

First, we have the New York Times outline of torture techniques.

And below, is pretty much the way I remember what the left calls ‘torture.’

1. Walling(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“A flexible false wall will be constructed. The individual is placed with his heels touching the wall: The interrogator pulls the individual forward and then quickly and firmly pushes the individual into the wall. It is the individual’s shoulder blades that hit the wall.”

Anyone who’s been at a Lady Gaga concert or shoe sale at Bloomingdale’s has been through this one. Any permanent injuries?

2. The Facial (or Insult) Slap(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“With the facial slap or insult slap, the interrogator slaps the individual’s face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual’s personal space.”

This one is a toughie, since women today will put up with any behavior, but you guys who have gone with ladies, may have had to contend with this ‘torture.’

3. Insects Placed in a Confinement Box & Cramped Confinement(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“You [the CIA] would like to place [Abu] Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us [the Department of Justice] that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpiller in the box with him.”

There was the time we took a cabin in the woods. Yes, I was exposed to this horrid torture as well!

“With respect to the small confinement box, you have informed us that he would spend at most two hours in this box… For the larger box, in which he can both stand and sit, he may be placed in this box for up to eighteen hours at a time…”

It is also known by it’s alternate title: the dreaded ‘college dorm room!’ In some of the dorm rooms in Columbia, you actually had to have the door open to fit the bed. I kid you not.

5. Dietary Manipuation(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“this technique involves the substitution of commercial liquid meal replacements for normal food, presenting detainees with a bland, unappetizing, but nutritionally complete diet.”

Now, this is torture. I remember after the first two weeks of staying up until 3 in the morning and eating nothing but junk food, I became quickly acquainted with the ‘freshman 10.’ You know what came next: the living hell of Slim Fast!

Plus, I didn’t get any medical personnel, although there was this cute pre-med soph…

6. Nudity(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“This technique is used to cause psychological discomfort, particularly if a detainee, for cultural or other reasons, is especially modest. When the technique is employed, clothing can be provided as a instant reward for cooperation… Interrogators can exploit the detainee’s fear of being seen naked.”

No details here, but I will tell you that at Vassar, we had co-ed bathrooms and showers.

7. Abdominal Slap(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“In this technique, the interrogator strikes the abdomen of the detainee with the back of his open hand. The interrogator must have no rings or other jewelry on his hand. The interrogator is positioned directly in front of the detainee, generally no more than 18 inches from the detainees. With his fingers held tightly together and fully extended, and with his palm toward the interrogator slaps the detainee in the detainee’s abdoment. The interrogator may not use a fist, and the slap must be delivered above the navel and below the sternum.”

Dreadful! Why, this is almost as bad as Dodge Ball!

8. Water Dousing and ‘Flicking’(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“Cold water is poured on the detainee either from a container or from a hose without a nozzle.”

Do you have an older brother? Need I say more?

“…you have also described a variation of water dousing involving much smaller quantities of water; this variation is known as ‘flicking.’ Flicking of water is achieved by the interrogator wetting his fingers and then flicking them at the detainee, propelling droplets at the detainee.”

9. Sleep Deprivation (more than 48 hours)
(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

I get the heebie-jeebies just thinking of those No-Doz days, and nights.

“…In lieu of standing sleep deprivation, a detainee may instead by seated on and shackled to a small stoo. The stool supports the detainee’s weight, but is too small to permit the subject to balance himself sufficiently to go to sleep…”

I’ve been in college lectures in similar situations.

10. Waterboarding(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)
“Finally, you would like to use a technique called the ‘waterboard.’ …airflow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds.”

Here is the biggie, waterboarding, as we call it, Chug-a-Lug:


Wow, kind of reminds you of that line from Pulp Fiction, “You hear me talking, hillbilly boy? I aint through with you by a damn sight. I’m a get medieval on yer ass.”

Is it possible that we have define ‘torture’ down to this level? I think not. Those claiming it’s torture are simply the same anti-war, America-hating liberals with a Bush Derangement Syndrome, hiding behind some feigned righteous indignation as a strategy to impede the success of American policy, in the hopes of another Vietnam debacle.

Winston Churchill famously said, “We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.”

Little did he suspect that we would, instead, became a nation of girly- men.

you are a liar

“I have no idea, you’d have to ask the experts,” Rumsfeld told The Hill when asked whether interrogation policies implemented by former President George W. Bush were instrumental in locating bin Laden.

But he said the Bush administration deserves praise for strengthening military special operations that killed the al Qaeda leader in a nighttime raid.


Rumsfeld uncertain whether Bush policies helped find bin Laden - TheHill.com

 

[Bfgrn]

Congratulations to the Navy SEAL who shot Osama Bin Laden!

And while it closed one door, it re-opened another: the question of enhanced interrogation, such as waterboarding.

Donald Rumsfeld in a recent interview with Sean Hannity made it absolutely clear that strong interrogation techniques were used to obtain important information that led to the eventual assassination of Bin Laden!

RUMSFELD: Well, that’s my understanding. And I think that anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques, let’s be blunt, waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn’t facing the truth. The facts are, General Mike Hayden came in, he had no connection with waterboarding anybody. He looked at all the evidence and concluded that a major fraction of the intelligence in our country on al Qaeda came from individuals, the three, only three people who were waterboarded.

But “President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture and that the information it gained from terror suspects could have been obtained by other means. ‘In some cases, it may be harder,’ he conceded at a White House news conference capping a whirlwind first 100 days in office.”

So, it seems, logic, and evidence of effectiveness, have no impact on the thinking of the naysayers, let’s see if this comparison does…

First, we have the New York Times outline of torture techniques.

And below, is pretty much the way I remember what the left calls ‘torture.’

1. Walling(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“A flexible false wall will be constructed. The individual is placed with his heels touching the wall: The interrogator pulls the individual forward and then quickly and firmly pushes the individual into the wall. It is the individual’s shoulder blades that hit the wall.”

Anyone who’s been at a Lady Gaga concert or shoe sale at Bloomingdale’s has been through this one. Any permanent injuries?

2. The Facial (or Insult) Slap(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“With the facial slap or insult slap, the interrogator slaps the individual’s face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual’s personal space.”

This one is a toughie, since women today will put up with any behavior, but you guys who have gone with ladies, may have had to contend with this ‘torture.’

3. Insects Placed in a Confinement Box & Cramped Confinement(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“You [the CIA] would like to place [Abu] Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us [the Department of Justice] that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpiller in the box with him.”

There was the time we took a cabin in the woods. Yes, I was exposed to this horrid torture as well!

“With respect to the small confinement box, you have informed us that he would spend at most two hours in this box… For the larger box, in which he can both stand and sit, he may be placed in this box for up to eighteen hours at a time…”

It is also known by it’s alternate title: the dreaded ‘college dorm room!’ In some of the dorm rooms in Columbia, you actually had to have the door open to fit the bed. I kid you not.

5. Dietary Manipuation(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“this technique involves the substitution of commercial liquid meal replacements for normal food, presenting detainees with a bland, unappetizing, but nutritionally complete diet.”

Now, this is torture. I remember after the first two weeks of staying up until 3 in the morning and eating nothing but junk food, I became quickly acquainted with the ‘freshman 10.’ You know what came next: the living hell of Slim Fast!

Plus, I didn’t get any medical personnel, although there was this cute pre-med soph…

6. Nudity(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“This technique is used to cause psychological discomfort, particularly if a detainee, for cultural or other reasons, is especially modest. When the technique is employed, clothing can be provided as a instant reward for cooperation… Interrogators can exploit the detainee’s fear of being seen naked.”

No details here, but I will tell you that at Vassar, we had co-ed bathrooms and showers.

7. Abdominal Slap(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“In this technique, the interrogator strikes the abdomen of the detainee with the back of his open hand. The interrogator must have no rings or other jewelry on his hand. The interrogator is positioned directly in front of the detainee, generally no more than 18 inches from the detainees. With his fingers held tightly together and fully extended, and with his palm toward the interrogator slaps the detainee in the detainee’s abdoment. The interrogator may not use a fist, and the slap must be delivered above the navel and below the sternum.”

Dreadful! Why, this is almost as bad as Dodge Ball!

8. Water Dousing and ‘Flicking’(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“Cold water is poured on the detainee either from a container or from a hose without a nozzle.”

Do you have an older brother? Need I say more?

“…you have also described a variation of water dousing involving much smaller quantities of water; this variation is known as ‘flicking.’ Flicking of water is achieved by the interrogator wetting his fingers and then flicking them at the detainee, propelling droplets at the detainee.”

9. Sleep Deprivation (more than 48 hours)
(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

I get the heebie-jeebies just thinking of those No-Doz days, and nights.

“…In lieu of standing sleep deprivation, a detainee may instead by seated on and shackled to a small stoo. The stool supports the detainee’s weight, but is too small to permit the subject to balance himself sufficiently to go to sleep…”

I’ve been in college lectures in similar situations.

10. Waterboarding(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)
“Finally, you would like to use a technique called the ‘waterboard.’ …airflow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds.”

Here is the biggie, waterboarding, as we call it, Chug-a-Lug:


Wow, kind of reminds you of that line from Pulp Fiction, “You hear me talking, hillbilly boy? I aint through with you by a damn sight. I’m a get medieval on yer ass.”

Is it possible that we have define ‘torture’ down to this level? I think not. Those claiming it’s torture are simply the same anti-war, America-hating liberals with a Bush Derangement Syndrome, hiding behind some feigned righteous indignation as a strategy to impede the success of American policy, in the hopes of another Vietnam debacle.

Winston Churchill famously said, “We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.”

Little did he suspect that we would, instead, became a nation of girly- men.

Hey PC, you right wing fanatics can defend torture all you want, but at least own up to who and what you are. Fascism and authoritarianism will never be spawned from liberalism, it resides solely on the right.

There was no torture, merely 'enhanced interrogation.' See the OP.

The French Revolution and the Enlightenment gave rise to the totalitarian philosophies such as fascism, communism...and liberalism.

These are the philosophies that use coercion and force to accomplish their goals, that champion the 'general will' embodied in government, over the rights of the individual.

The French Revolution, the first fascist movement(The political terms "Right" and "Left" were born in the French Revolution, when two different revolutionary factions took seats in the French National Assembly's hall: the Girondins on the right wing and the Jacobins on the left wing.)

1. It was totalitarian, nationalist, conspiratorial, and populist, the origin of the revolutionary tradition of the left.

a. While the American Revolution, essentially conservative, and served as a paradigm for the American right and classical liberals, the left sees its model in the Jacobins.
2. Produced the first modern dictators, Robespierre and Napoleon

3. Based on the premise that the nation had to be ruled by an enlightened avant-garde who represented the ‘general will.’

4. Jacobin mentality made the revolutionaries more savage and cruel than the king they replaced. Some 50,000 died in the Terror (1793-1794)

5. [Robespierre] “is the prototype of a particularly odious kind of evildoer: the ideologue who believes that reason and morality are on the side of his butcheries. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot are of the same mold. They are the characteristic scourges of humanity in modern times, but Robespierre has a good claim to being the first.” Why Robespierre Chose Terror by John Kekes, City Journal Spring 2006

6. Robespierre: We must exterminate all our enemies, see the modern Democrat Party, and 'the politics of personal destruction.'

7. Robespierre: “The people is always worth more than individuals…The people is sublime, but individuals are weak” or expendable. http://www.nationalaffairs.com/docl...hvsthefrenchenlightmentgertrudehimmelfarb.pdf

You truly reside in an alternate universe PC.

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians

革命的集体组织中的自由主义是十分有害的。它是一种腐蚀剂，使团结涣散，关系松懈，工作消极，意见分歧。它使革命队伍失掉严密的组织和纪律，政策不能贯彻到底，党的组织和党所领导的群众发生隔离。这是一种严重的恶劣倾向。

Liberalism is extremely harmful in a revolutionary collective. It is a corrosive which eats away unity, undermines cohesion, causes apathy and creates dissension.

It robs the revolutionary ranks of compact organization and strict discipline, prevents policies from being carried through and alienates the Party organizations from the masses which the Party leads. It is an extremely bad tendency.Combat Liberalism" (7 September 1937), later quoted in Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong (The Little Red Book) (1964), Ch. 24.

 

[George Costanza]

A person's views on whether waterboarding is torture or is not torture, speaks volumes about that person.

Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[L.K.Eder]

Congratulations to the Navy SEAL who shot Osama Bin Laden!

And while it closed one door, it re-opened another: the question of enhanced interrogation, such as waterboarding.

Donald Rumsfeld in a recent interview with Sean Hannity made it absolutely clear that strong interrogation techniques were used to obtain important information that led to the eventual assassination of Bin Laden!

RUMSFELD: Well, that’s my understanding. And I think that anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques, let’s be blunt, waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn’t facing the truth. The facts are, General Mike Hayden came in, he had no connection with waterboarding anybody. He looked at all the evidence and concluded that a major fraction of the intelligence in our country on al Qaeda came from individuals, the three, only three people who were waterboarded.

But “President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture and that the information it gained from terror suspects could have been obtained by other means. ‘In some cases, it may be harder,’ he conceded at a White House news conference capping a whirlwind first 100 days in office.”

So, it seems, logic, and evidence of effectiveness, have no impact on the thinking of the naysayers, let’s see if this comparison does…

First, we have the New York Times outline of torture techniques.

And below, is pretty much the way I remember what the left calls ‘torture.’

1. Walling(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“A flexible false wall will be constructed. The individual is placed with his heels touching the wall: The interrogator pulls the individual forward and then quickly and firmly pushes the individual into the wall. It is the individual’s shoulder blades that hit the wall.”

Anyone who’s been at a Lady Gaga concert or shoe sale at Bloomingdale’s has been through this one. Any permanent injuries?

2. The Facial (or Insult) Slap(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“With the facial slap or insult slap, the interrogator slaps the individual’s face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual’s personal space.”

This one is a toughie, since women today will put up with any behavior, but you guys who have gone with ladies, may have had to contend with this ‘torture.’

3. Insects Placed in a Confinement Box & Cramped Confinement(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“You [the CIA] would like to place [Abu] Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us [the Department of Justice] that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpiller in the box with him.”

There was the time we took a cabin in the woods. Yes, I was exposed to this horrid torture as well!

“With respect to the small confinement box, you have informed us that he would spend at most two hours in this box… For the larger box, in which he can both stand and sit, he may be placed in this box for up to eighteen hours at a time…”

It is also known by it’s alternate title: the dreaded ‘college dorm room!’ In some of the dorm rooms in Columbia, you actually had to have the door open to fit the bed. I kid you not.

5. Dietary Manipuation(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“this technique involves the substitution of commercial liquid meal replacements for normal food, presenting detainees with a bland, unappetizing, but nutritionally complete diet.”

Now, this is torture. I remember after the first two weeks of staying up until 3 in the morning and eating nothing but junk food, I became quickly acquainted with the ‘freshman 10.’ You know what came next: the living hell of Slim Fast!

Plus, I didn’t get any medical personnel, although there was this cute pre-med soph…

6. Nudity(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“This technique is used to cause psychological discomfort, particularly if a detainee, for cultural or other reasons, is especially modest. When the technique is employed, clothing can be provided as a instant reward for cooperation… Interrogators can exploit the detainee’s fear of being seen naked.”

No details here, but I will tell you that at Vassar, we had co-ed bathrooms and showers.

7. Abdominal Slap(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“In this technique, the interrogator strikes the abdomen of the detainee with the back of his open hand. The interrogator must have no rings or other jewelry on his hand. The interrogator is positioned directly in front of the detainee, generally no more than 18 inches from the detainees. With his fingers held tightly together and fully extended, and with his palm toward the interrogator slaps the detainee in the detainee’s abdoment. The interrogator may not use a fist, and the slap must be delivered above the navel and below the sternum.”

Dreadful! Why, this is almost as bad as Dodge Ball!

8. Water Dousing and ‘Flicking’(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“Cold water is poured on the detainee either from a container or from a hose without a nozzle.”

Do you have an older brother? Need I say more?

“…you have also described a variation of water dousing involving much smaller quantities of water; this variation is known as ‘flicking.’ Flicking of water is achieved by the interrogator wetting his fingers and then flicking them at the detainee, propelling droplets at the detainee.”

9. Sleep Deprivation (more than 48 hours)
(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

I get the heebie-jeebies just thinking of those No-Doz days, and nights.

“…In lieu of standing sleep deprivation, a detainee may instead by seated on and shackled to a small stoo. The stool supports the detainee’s weight, but is too small to permit the subject to balance himself sufficiently to go to sleep…”

I’ve been in college lectures in similar situations.

10. Waterboarding(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)
“Finally, you would like to use a technique called the ‘waterboard.’ …airflow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds.”

Here is the biggie, waterboarding, as we call it, Chug-a-Lug:


Wow, kind of reminds you of that line from Pulp Fiction, “You hear me talking, hillbilly boy? I aint through with you by a damn sight. I’m a get medieval on yer ass.”

Is it possible that we have define ‘torture’ down to this level? I think not. Those claiming it’s torture are simply the same anti-war, America-hating liberals with a Bush Derangement Syndrome, hiding behind some feigned righteous indignation as a strategy to impede the success of American policy, in the hopes of another Vietnam debacle.

Winston Churchill famously said, “We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.”

Little did he suspect that we would, instead, became a nation of girly- men.

i would like to know why your mind is so polluted.

 

[George Costanza]

Hey - PC: Check this out:

Overview of the most common methods of torture and abuse in the People's Republic of China

Note the numerous methods of torture which you claim are not torture, but which are clearly labled as such in this article.

I note that in one point in your OP, you mention that something is not torture because it "leaves no marks," or some such. There are dozens and dozens of torture techniques that "leave no marks." In fact, that is precisely why so many of them have been used over the years.

How would you feel about this one - the victim is tied to a chair. A plastic bag is placed over his head and allowed to remain there until the person passses out from lack of oxygen. (Note, we are not talking 20 or 40 seconds here but, rather, a period of two to four minutes.) The bag is then removed, the person is revived, and then the procedure is repeated, over and over again.

So what we have here is forcing the person to experience every possible sensation of dying by suffocation. Then, once he is out (he might as well be dead insofar as he is concerend), he is "brought back" and the procedure is then repeated.

Would you call that torture or not?

 

[PoliticalChic]

A person's views on whether waterboarding is torture or is not torture, speaks volumes about that person.

Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Haven't you noticed, Georgie?....I always speak volumes!

 

[PoliticalChic]

Hey - PC: Check this out:

Overview of the most common methods of torture and abuse in the People's Republic of China

Note the numerous methods of torture which you claim are not torture, but which are clearly labled as such in this article.

I note that in one point in your OP, you mention that something is not torture because it "leaves no marks," or some such. There are dozens and dozens of torture techniques that "leave no marks." In fact, that is precisely why so many of them have been used over the years.

How would you feel about this one - the victim is tied to a chair. A plastic bag is placed over his head and allowed to remain there until the person passses out from lack of oxygen. (Note, we are not talking 20 or 40 seconds here but, rather, a period of two to four minutes.) The bag is then removed, the person is revived, and then the procedure is repeated, over and over again.

So what we have here is forcing the person to experience every possible sensation of dying by suffocation. Then, once he is out (he might as well be dead insofar as he is concerend), he is "brought back" and the procedure is then repeated.

Would you call that torture or not?

Bogus.

I use Arabic numerals, but I'm not Muslim.


You sissy-boys on the Left, make nice and pat the killers on the head....maybe they'll kill you last. It is well known that the Left has never been able to recognize evil, and therefore, has not known how to deal with it.


None of those listed in the OP are torture, and I consider it immoral not to use any and all menthods if they are designed to save the lives of innocents.
Not you?

Is it just strangers, and my family you're willing to sacrifice, or would you throw you and yours under the bus as well?
Speak up!


Here's torture:
From ‘Over the Edge of the World,’ by Laurence Bergreen

In 1519, Magellan took five ships as set sail from Spain to find a water route to the Spice Islands (Indonesia). Among the depredations he faced was mutiny. He dealt with it as follows.

“First, Magellan instructed one of his men to read an indictment of Mendoza as a traitor. The Captain General then ordered his men to draw and quarter Mendoza’s body. This complicated and grotesque procedure usually began with hanging the victim, then cutting his down while he was only partly strangled. The executioner or an assistant would make an incision in the victim’s abdomen, remove the intestines, and, incredibly, burn them in front of the half-dead victim. When he finally expired, his head and limbs were severed from his body, parboiled with herbs to preserve them and repel birds, and finally displayed to the public.

In a variation, the victim’s arms and legs were attached to four horses, who were made to walk in opposite directions, slowly tearing the victim’s limbs from his body.
Magellan combined elements of both methods. Mendoza was secured to the flagship’s deck, with ropes running from his wrists and ankles to the capstans, which consisted of a cable wound about a cylinder to hoist or move heavy objects. On cue, sailors pressed on levers to rotate the capstans’ drum, which contained sockets to check its backward movement. Bit by bit, the pressure applied to the capstans ripped Mendoza’s lifeless body to pieces.

Magellan directed that the quartered remains be spitted and displayed as a warning of exactly how traitors would be treated…This practice, so barbarous by present standards, was in keeping with the customs of the time for those who would defy authority.
Magellan’s display of barbarism did not end there; he was only beginning to exact revenge for the mutineers’ insult to his authority and to the honor of King Charles. More than execution, torture was his ultimate weapon at sea. He appointed his cousin, Alvero de Mesquita as judge. He ordered Andres de San Martin to the ghastly strappado. The strappado was administered in five stages of increasing agony. In the first degree, the victim was stripped, his wrists were bound behind his back, and he was threatened until he confessed. If he refused, he was subjected to the second degree. In it, the victim’s arms were raised behind his back by a rope attached to a pulley secured overhead, and he was lifted off his feet for a brief period of time, and given another chance to confess. If he still refused, he faced the third degree of strappado, in which he was suspended for a longer period of time, which dislocated his shoulders and broke his arms. Once again, he was given another chance to confess. If no satisfactory confession, the fourth degree: The victim was suspended and violently jerked, which inflicted excruciating pain. Few victims of methodically administered strappado lasted beyond this point without confessing. In certain cases there was a fifth degree. In this final phase of strappado, weights were attached to the victim’s feet, and they were often heavy enough to tear the limbs from his tormented body.

San Martin suffered the full five stages. “The prisoner hath his hands bound behind his back, and weights tied to his feet, and then he is drawn up on high, till his head reached the vey pulley. He is kept hanging in this manner for some time, that by the greatness of the weight hanging at his feet, all his joints and limbs may be dreadfully stretched, and of a sudden he is let down with a jerk, by slacking the rope, but kept from coming quite to the ground.”

 

[PoliticalChic]

Congratulations to the Navy SEAL who shot Osama Bin Laden!

And while it closed one door, it re-opened another: the question of enhanced interrogation, such as waterboarding.

Donald Rumsfeld in a recent interview with Sean Hannity made it absolutely clear that strong interrogation techniques were used to obtain important information that led to the eventual assassination of Bin Laden!

RUMSFELD: Well, that’s my understanding. And I think that anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques, let’s be blunt, waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn’t facing the truth. The facts are, General Mike Hayden came in, he had no connection with waterboarding anybody. He looked at all the evidence and concluded that a major fraction of the intelligence in our country on al Qaeda came from individuals, the three, only three people who were waterboarded.

But “President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture and that the information it gained from terror suspects could have been obtained by other means. ‘In some cases, it may be harder,’ he conceded at a White House news conference capping a whirlwind first 100 days in office.”

So, it seems, logic, and evidence of effectiveness, have no impact on the thinking of the naysayers, let’s see if this comparison does…

First, we have the New York Times outline of torture techniques.

And below, is pretty much the way I remember what the left calls ‘torture.’

1. Walling(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“A flexible false wall will be constructed. The individual is placed with his heels touching the wall: The interrogator pulls the individual forward and then quickly and firmly pushes the individual into the wall. It is the individual’s shoulder blades that hit the wall.”

Anyone who’s been at a Lady Gaga concert or shoe sale at Bloomingdale’s has been through this one. Any permanent injuries?

2. The Facial (or Insult) Slap(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“With the facial slap or insult slap, the interrogator slaps the individual’s face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual’s personal space.”

This one is a toughie, since women today will put up with any behavior, but you guys who have gone with ladies, may have had to contend with this ‘torture.’

3. Insects Placed in a Confinement Box & Cramped Confinement(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“You [the CIA] would like to place [Abu] Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us [the Department of Justice] that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpiller in the box with him.”

There was the time we took a cabin in the woods. Yes, I was exposed to this horrid torture as well!

“With respect to the small confinement box, you have informed us that he would spend at most two hours in this box… For the larger box, in which he can both stand and sit, he may be placed in this box for up to eighteen hours at a time…”

It is also known by it’s alternate title: the dreaded ‘college dorm room!’ In some of the dorm rooms in Columbia, you actually had to have the door open to fit the bed. I kid you not.

5. Dietary Manipuation(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“this technique involves the substitution of commercial liquid meal replacements for normal food, presenting detainees with a bland, unappetizing, but nutritionally complete diet.”

Now, this is torture. I remember after the first two weeks of staying up until 3 in the morning and eating nothing but junk food, I became quickly acquainted with the ‘freshman 10.’ You know what came next: the living hell of Slim Fast!

Plus, I didn’t get any medical personnel, although there was this cute pre-med soph…

6. Nudity(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“This technique is used to cause psychological discomfort, particularly if a detainee, for cultural or other reasons, is especially modest. When the technique is employed, clothing can be provided as a instant reward for cooperation… Interrogators can exploit the detainee’s fear of being seen naked.”

No details here, but I will tell you that at Vassar, we had co-ed bathrooms and showers.

7. Abdominal Slap(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“In this technique, the interrogator strikes the abdomen of the detainee with the back of his open hand. The interrogator must have no rings or other jewelry on his hand. The interrogator is positioned directly in front of the detainee, generally no more than 18 inches from the detainees. With his fingers held tightly together and fully extended, and with his palm toward the interrogator slaps the detainee in the detainee’s abdoment. The interrogator may not use a fist, and the slap must be delivered above the navel and below the sternum.”

Dreadful! Why, this is almost as bad as Dodge Ball!

8. Water Dousing and ‘Flicking’(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“Cold water is poured on the detainee either from a container or from a hose without a nozzle.”

Do you have an older brother? Need I say more?

“…you have also described a variation of water dousing involving much smaller quantities of water; this variation is known as ‘flicking.’ Flicking of water is achieved by the interrogator wetting his fingers and then flicking them at the detainee, propelling droplets at the detainee.”

9. Sleep Deprivation (more than 48 hours)
(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

I get the heebie-jeebies just thinking of those No-Doz days, and nights.

“…In lieu of standing sleep deprivation, a detainee may instead by seated on and shackled to a small stoo. The stool supports the detainee’s weight, but is too small to permit the subject to balance himself sufficiently to go to sleep…”

I’ve been in college lectures in similar situations.

10. Waterboarding(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)
“Finally, you would like to use a technique called the ‘waterboard.’ …airflow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds.”

Here is the biggie, waterboarding, as we call it, Chug-a-Lug:


Wow, kind of reminds you of that line from Pulp Fiction, “You hear me talking, hillbilly boy? I aint through with you by a damn sight. I’m a get medieval on yer ass.”

Is it possible that we have define ‘torture’ down to this level? I think not. Those claiming it’s torture are simply the same anti-war, America-hating liberals with a Bush Derangement Syndrome, hiding behind some feigned righteous indignation as a strategy to impede the success of American policy, in the hopes of another Vietnam debacle.

Winston Churchill famously said, “We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.”

Little did he suspect that we would, instead, became a nation of girly- men.

i would like to know why your mind is so polluted.

Brilliant rebuttal!
Awesome.....

Always interesting to me what some folks find as a rejoinder.

 

[Bfgrn]

Hey - PC: Check this out:

Overview of the most common methods of torture and abuse in the People's Republic of China

Note the numerous methods of torture which you claim are not torture, but which are clearly labled as such in this article.

I note that in one point in your OP, you mention that something is not torture because it "leaves no marks," or some such. There are dozens and dozens of torture techniques that "leave no marks." In fact, that is precisely why so many of them have been used over the years.

How would you feel about this one - the victim is tied to a chair. A plastic bag is placed over his head and allowed to remain there until the person passses out from lack of oxygen. (Note, we are not talking 20 or 40 seconds here but, rather, a period of two to four minutes.) The bag is then removed, the person is revived, and then the procedure is repeated, over and over again.

So what we have here is forcing the person to experience every possible sensation of dying by suffocation. Then, once he is out (he might as well be dead insofar as he is concerend), he is "brought back" and the procedure is then repeated.

Would you call that torture or not?

Bogus.

I use Arabic numerals, but I'm not Muslim.


You sissy-boys on the Left, make nice and pat the killers on the head....maybe they'll kill you last. It is well known that the Left has never been able to recognize evil, and therefore, has not known how to deal with it.


None of those listed in the OP are torture, and I consider it immoral not to use any and all menthods if they are designed to save the lives of innocents.
Not you?

Is it just strangers, and my family you're willing to sacrifice, or would you throw you and yours under the bus as well?
Speak up!


Here's torture:
From ‘Over the Edge of the World,’ by Laurence Bergreen

In 1519, Magellan took five ships as set sail from Spain to find a water route to the Spice Islands (Indonesia). Among the depredations he faced was mutiny. He dealt with it as follows.

“First, Magellan instructed one of his men to read an indictment of Mendoza as a traitor. The Captain General then ordered his men to draw and quarter Mendoza’s body. This complicated and grotesque procedure usually began with hanging the victim, then cutting his down while he was only partly strangled. The executioner or an assistant would make an incision in the victim’s abdomen, remove the intestines, and, incredibly, burn them in front of the half-dead victim. When he finally expired, his head and limbs were severed from his body, parboiled with herbs to preserve them and repel birds, and finally displayed to the public.

In a variation, the victim’s arms and legs were attached to four horses, who were made to walk in opposite directions, slowly tearing the victim’s limbs from his body.
Magellan combined elements of both methods. Mendoza was secured to the flagship’s deck, with ropes running from his wrists and ankles to the capstans, which consisted of a cable wound about a cylinder to hoist or move heavy objects. On cue, sailors pressed on levers to rotate the capstans’ drum, which contained sockets to check its backward movement. Bit by bit, the pressure applied to the capstans ripped Mendoza’s lifeless body to pieces.

Magellan directed that the quartered remains be spitted and displayed as a warning of exactly how traitors would be treated…This practice, so barbarous by present standards, was in keeping with the customs of the time for those who would defy authority.
Magellan’s display of barbarism did not end there; he was only beginning to exact revenge for the mutineers’ insult to his authority and to the honor of King Charles. More than execution, torture was his ultimate weapon at sea. He appointed his cousin, Alvero de Mesquita as judge. He ordered Andres de San Martin to the ghastly strappado. The strappado was administered in five stages of increasing agony. In the first degree, the victim was stripped, his wrists were bound behind his back, and he was threatened until he confessed. If he refused, he was subjected to the second degree. In it, the victim’s arms were raised behind his back by a rope attached to a pulley secured overhead, and he was lifted off his feet for a brief period of time, and given another chance to confess. If he still refused, he faced the third degree of strappado, in which he was suspended for a longer period of time, which dislocated his shoulders and broke his arms. Once again, he was given another chance to confess. If no satisfactory confession, the fourth degree: The victim was suspended and violently jerked, which inflicted excruciating pain. Few victims of methodically administered strappado lasted beyond this point without confessing. In certain cases there was a fifth degree. In this final phase of strappado, weights were attached to the victim’s feet, and they were often heavy enough to tear the limbs from his tormented body.

San Martin suffered the full five stages. “The prisoner hath his hands bound behind his back, and weights tied to his feet, and then he is drawn up on high, till his head reached the vey pulley. He is kept hanging in this manner for some time, that by the greatness of the weight hanging at his feet, all his joints and limbs may be dreadfully stretched, and of a sudden he is let down with a jerk, by slacking the rope, but kept from coming quite to the ground.”

“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

Washington then issued an order to his troops regarding prisoners of war:

“‘Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands,’ he wrote. In all respects the prisoners were to be treated no worse than American soldiers; and in some respects, better. Through this approach, Washington sought to shame his British adversaries, and to demonstrate the moral superiority of the American cause.”

George Washington: No Torture on My Watch

 

[Ravi]

Congratulations to the Navy SEAL who shot Osama Bin Laden!

And while it closed one door, it re-opened another: the question of enhanced interrogation, such as waterboarding.

Donald Rumsfeld in a recent interview with Sean Hannity made it absolutely clear that strong interrogation techniques were used to obtain important information that led to the eventual assassination of Bin Laden!

RUMSFELD: Well, that’s my understanding. And I think that anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques, let’s be blunt, waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn’t facing the truth. The facts are, General Mike Hayden came in, he had no connection with waterboarding anybody. He looked at all the evidence and concluded that a major fraction of the intelligence in our country on al Qaeda came from individuals, the three, only three people who were waterboarded.

But “President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture and that the information it gained from terror suspects could have been obtained by other means. ‘In some cases, it may be harder,’ he conceded at a White House news conference capping a whirlwind first 100 days in office.”

So, it seems, logic, and evidence of effectiveness, have no impact on the thinking of the naysayers, let’s see if this comparison does…

First, we have the New York Times outline of torture techniques.

And below, is pretty much the way I remember what the left calls ‘torture.’

1. Walling(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“A flexible false wall will be constructed. The individual is placed with his heels touching the wall: The interrogator pulls the individual forward and then quickly and firmly pushes the individual into the wall. It is the individual’s shoulder blades that hit the wall.”

Anyone who’s been at a Lady Gaga concert or shoe sale at Bloomingdale’s has been through this one. Any permanent injuries?

2. The Facial (or Insult) Slap(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“With the facial slap or insult slap, the interrogator slaps the individual’s face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual’s personal space.”

This one is a toughie, since women today will put up with any behavior, but you guys who have gone with ladies, may have had to contend with this ‘torture.’

3. Insects Placed in a Confinement Box & Cramped Confinement(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)

“You [the CIA] would like to place [Abu] Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us [the Department of Justice] that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpiller in the box with him.”

There was the time we took a cabin in the woods. Yes, I was exposed to this horrid torture as well!

“With respect to the small confinement box, you have informed us that he would spend at most two hours in this box… For the larger box, in which he can both stand and sit, he may be placed in this box for up to eighteen hours at a time…”

It is also known by it’s alternate title: the dreaded ‘college dorm room!’ In some of the dorm rooms in Columbia, you actually had to have the door open to fit the bed. I kid you not.

5. Dietary Manipuation(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“this technique involves the substitution of commercial liquid meal replacements for normal food, presenting detainees with a bland, unappetizing, but nutritionally complete diet.”

Now, this is torture. I remember after the first two weeks of staying up until 3 in the morning and eating nothing but junk food, I became quickly acquainted with the ‘freshman 10.’ You know what came next: the living hell of Slim Fast!

Plus, I didn’t get any medical personnel, although there was this cute pre-med soph…

6. Nudity(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“This technique is used to cause psychological discomfort, particularly if a detainee, for cultural or other reasons, is especially modest. When the technique is employed, clothing can be provided as a instant reward for cooperation… Interrogators can exploit the detainee’s fear of being seen naked.”

No details here, but I will tell you that at Vassar, we had co-ed bathrooms and showers.

7. Abdominal Slap(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“In this technique, the interrogator strikes the abdomen of the detainee with the back of his open hand. The interrogator must have no rings or other jewelry on his hand. The interrogator is positioned directly in front of the detainee, generally no more than 18 inches from the detainees. With his fingers held tightly together and fully extended, and with his palm toward the interrogator slaps the detainee in the detainee’s abdoment. The interrogator may not use a fist, and the slap must be delivered above the navel and below the sternum.”

Dreadful! Why, this is almost as bad as Dodge Ball!

8. Water Dousing and ‘Flicking’(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

“Cold water is poured on the detainee either from a container or from a hose without a nozzle.”

Do you have an older brother? Need I say more?

“…you have also described a variation of water dousing involving much smaller quantities of water; this variation is known as ‘flicking.’ Flicking of water is achieved by the interrogator wetting his fingers and then flicking them at the detainee, propelling droplets at the detainee.”

9. Sleep Deprivation (more than 48 hours)
(Bradbury Memo, May 10, 2005)

I get the heebie-jeebies just thinking of those No-Doz days, and nights.

“…In lieu of standing sleep deprivation, a detainee may instead by seated on and shackled to a small stoo. The stool supports the detainee’s weight, but is too small to permit the subject to balance himself sufficiently to go to sleep…”

I’ve been in college lectures in similar situations.

10. Waterboarding(Bybee Memo, August 1, 2002)
“Finally, you would like to use a technique called the ‘waterboard.’ …airflow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds.”

Here is the biggie, waterboarding, as we call it, Chug-a-Lug:


Wow, kind of reminds you of that line from Pulp Fiction, “You hear me talking, hillbilly boy? I aint through with you by a damn sight. I’m a get medieval on yer ass.”

Is it possible that we have define ‘torture’ down to this level? I think not. Those claiming it’s torture are simply the same anti-war, America-hating liberals with a Bush Derangement Syndrome, hiding behind some feigned righteous indignation as a strategy to impede the success of American policy, in the hopes of another Vietnam debacle.

Winston Churchill famously said, “We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.”

Little did he suspect that we would, instead, became a nation of girly- men.

you are a liar

“I have no idea, you’d have to ask the experts,” Rumsfeld told The Hill when asked whether interrogation policies implemented by former President George W. Bush were instrumental in locating bin Laden.

But he said the Bush administration deserves praise for strengthening military special operations that killed the al Qaeda leader in a nighttime raid.


Rumsfeld uncertain whether Bush policies helped find bin Laden - TheHill.com

And of course he wouldn't know as he is out of the loop and probably knows no more than we do.

I never thought I'd say this, but props to Rummy for that statement.

 

[Ravi]

Damn, I am saddened to find out that the French Revolution was a bad thing.

Forgive me, Marie, I had you pegged wrong.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Hey - PC: Check this out:

Overview of the most common methods of torture and abuse in the People's Republic of China

Note the numerous methods of torture which you claim are not torture, but which are clearly labled as such in this article.

I note that in one point in your OP, you mention that something is not torture because it "leaves no marks," or some such. There are dozens and dozens of torture techniques that "leave no marks." In fact, that is precisely why so many of them have been used over the years.

How would you feel about this one - the victim is tied to a chair. A plastic bag is placed over his head and allowed to remain there until the person passses out from lack of oxygen. (Note, we are not talking 20 or 40 seconds here but, rather, a period of two to four minutes.) The bag is then removed, the person is revived, and then the procedure is repeated, over and over again.

So what we have here is forcing the person to experience every possible sensation of dying by suffocation. Then, once he is out (he might as well be dead insofar as he is concerend), he is "brought back" and the procedure is then repeated.

Would you call that torture or not?

Bogus.

I use Arabic numerals, but I'm not Muslim.


You sissy-boys on the Left, make nice and pat the killers on the head....maybe they'll kill you last. It is well known that the Left has never been able to recognize evil, and therefore, has not known how to deal with it.


None of those listed in the OP are torture, and I consider it immoral not to use any and all menthods if they are designed to save the lives of innocents.
Not you?

Is it just strangers, and my family you're willing to sacrifice, or would you throw you and yours under the bus as well?
Speak up!


Here's torture:
From ‘Over the Edge of the World,’ by Laurence Bergreen

In 1519, Magellan took five ships as set sail from Spain to find a water route to the Spice Islands (Indonesia). Among the depredations he faced was mutiny. He dealt with it as follows.

“First, Magellan instructed one of his men to read an indictment of Mendoza as a traitor. The Captain General then ordered his men to draw and quarter Mendoza’s body. This complicated and grotesque procedure usually began with hanging the victim, then cutting his down while he was only partly strangled. The executioner or an assistant would make an incision in the victim’s abdomen, remove the intestines, and, incredibly, burn them in front of the half-dead victim. When he finally expired, his head and limbs were severed from his body, parboiled with herbs to preserve them and repel birds, and finally displayed to the public.

In a variation, the victim’s arms and legs were attached to four horses, who were made to walk in opposite directions, slowly tearing the victim’s limbs from his body.
Magellan combined elements of both methods. Mendoza was secured to the flagship’s deck, with ropes running from his wrists and ankles to the capstans, which consisted of a cable wound about a cylinder to hoist or move heavy objects. On cue, sailors pressed on levers to rotate the capstans’ drum, which contained sockets to check its backward movement. Bit by bit, the pressure applied to the capstans ripped Mendoza’s lifeless body to pieces.

Magellan directed that the quartered remains be spitted and displayed as a warning of exactly how traitors would be treated…This practice, so barbarous by present standards, was in keeping with the customs of the time for those who would defy authority.
Magellan’s display of barbarism did not end there; he was only beginning to exact revenge for the mutineers’ insult to his authority and to the honor of King Charles. More than execution, torture was his ultimate weapon at sea. He appointed his cousin, Alvero de Mesquita as judge. He ordered Andres de San Martin to the ghastly strappado. The strappado was administered in five stages of increasing agony. In the first degree, the victim was stripped, his wrists were bound behind his back, and he was threatened until he confessed. If he refused, he was subjected to the second degree. In it, the victim’s arms were raised behind his back by a rope attached to a pulley secured overhead, and he was lifted off his feet for a brief period of time, and given another chance to confess. If he still refused, he faced the third degree of strappado, in which he was suspended for a longer period of time, which dislocated his shoulders and broke his arms. Once again, he was given another chance to confess. If no satisfactory confession, the fourth degree: The victim was suspended and violently jerked, which inflicted excruciating pain. Few victims of methodically administered strappado lasted beyond this point without confessing. In certain cases there was a fifth degree. In this final phase of strappado, weights were attached to the victim’s feet, and they were often heavy enough to tear the limbs from his tormented body.

San Martin suffered the full five stages. “The prisoner hath his hands bound behind his back, and weights tied to his feet, and then he is drawn up on high, till his head reached the vey pulley. He is kept hanging in this manner for some time, that by the greatness of the weight hanging at his feet, all his joints and limbs may be dreadfully stretched, and of a sudden he is let down with a jerk, by slacking the rope, but kept from coming quite to the ground.”

“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

Washington then issued an order to his troops regarding prisoners of war:

“‘Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands,’ he wrote. In all respects the prisoners were to be treated no worse than American soldiers; and in some respects, better. Through this approach, Washington sought to shame his British adversaries, and to demonstrate the moral superiority of the American cause.”

George Washington: No Torture on My Watch

Laws must change with the times. They must adapt to new challenges. That has been the genius of the common law. Ironically, it is generally the left that seeks change in the laws, while the right is satisfied with Henry IV. Today it is many on the left who resist any changes in the law of war or human rights. They deny the reality that the war against terrorism is any way different from conventional wars of the past, or that the old laws must be adapted to the new threats. The result is often an unreasonable debate of extremes: the hard left insists that the old laws should not be tampered with in the least; the hard right insists that the old laws are entirely inapplicable to the new threats, and that democratic governments should be entirely free to do whatever it takes to combat terrorism, without regard to anachronistic laws. Both extremes are dangerous. What is needed is a new set of laws, based on the principles of the old laws of war and human rights - the protection of civilians - but adapted to the new threats against civilian victims of terrorism.

The laws must be changed to permit democracies to fight fairly and effectively against those who threaten its citizens. To paraphrase Robert Jackson, who served as the United States chief prosecutor at Nuremberg - the law must not be "a suicide pact".Alan M Dershowitz is Professor of Law at Harvard University, and the author of Preemption: A Knife That Cuts Both Ways (Norton, £15.99)

Alan Dershowitz: Should we fight terror with torture? - Americas, World - The Independent

 

[SFC Ollie]

I really don't care how anyone defines torture. For all intents and purposes the intense questioning techniques appear to have worked. And it's a good thing. My salute to all the boring people who spent hundreds or even thousands of boring hours working on this intelligence that finally got the bastard.