Universities and colleges, how would the right make them less "liberal"?

[Anachronism]

Uh no, generally on Friday and Saturday and often times on Thursday nights after I got off work I was doing some kind of act of debauchery. Are you trying to tell me that more often than not non greeks can be found with their noses dilligently in their textbooks on Friday and Saturday night?

I can tell you that's where I was almost every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night for two years. I'll also tell you that it's where most college students should be those evenings.

I will say we did have study hours system in place (the lower your GPA the more time you had to spend in study hall to remain an active brother). What I am telling you is that it is possible for a college student to effectively balance their academic, extracurricular activities, and social life.

Possible, yes. Probably, not a chance. Therein lies the problem. 18-22 year olds are much more likely to choose to spend their time drinking, partying, and generally screwing around when they should be preparing themselves for the rest of their lives. In my experience, the more freedom (living off campus, being in a frat, etc...) these students are given the less likely they are to spend sufficient time in their studies.

I am also telling you that being in a fraternity can have many positive impacts on a young adults college experience.

I'm sure it can. However, I believe it is generally a net negative experience on their educational endeavours, which is what they are supposed to be at college for in the first place.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Well, there is nothing wrong with teaching Karl Marx, however there is certainly something wrong with indoctrinating kids er young adults with Karl Marx...

Teach these kids Ayn Rand and Karl Marx (among others) and let them decide.

Teach them about Pol Pot, teach them the truth about Che Guevara.... Teach teach them the facts of Stalin and Mao.

The problem is, these communist educators selectively teach, not to mention the textbooks they use and the books that are "required" reading are generally partisan bullshit....

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

Uh no, generally on Friday and Saturday and often times on Thursday nights after I got off work I was doing some kind of act of debauchery. Are you trying to tell me that more often than not non greeks can be found with their noses dilligently in their textbooks on Friday and Saturday night?

I can tell you that's where I was almost every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night for two years. I'll also tell you that it's where most college students should be those evenings.

I will say we did have study hours system in place (the lower your GPA the more time you had to spend in study hall to remain an active brother). What I am telling you is that it is possible for a college student to effectively balance their academic, extracurricular activities, and social life.

Possible, yes. Probably, not a chance. Therein lies the problem. 18-22 year olds are much more likely to choose to spend their time drinking, partying, and generally screwing around when they should be preparing themselves for the rest of their lives. In my experience, the more freedom (living off campus, being in a frat, etc...) these students are given the less likely they are to spend sufficient time in their studies.

I am also telling you that being in a fraternity can have many positive impacts on a young adults college experience.

I'm sure it can. However, I believe it is generally a net negative experience on their educational endeavours, which is what they are supposed to be at college for in the first place.

I believe you have a narrow minded idea of what greek life actually is from watching the likes of Animal House and not knowing what it actually is to be greek. Ill agree that ones education should be their primary endeavour (something every fraternity recognizes) but that is not the only purpose. It should also be a time where one grows as a person. Go through and read the mission statements and values of fraternities and tell me that the true purpose isnt to make men better men. Also, its not a "frat" its a fraternity.

 

[rdean]

I believe in dedication as much as the next guy, but you may be a tad "harsh". You used the word "force" 5 times. Remember, those people are paying to go to that college. College isn't like high school. You have a choice of whether or not to go.

I was taught growing up that the end of your Senior Year in High School was the end of your "fun time" in life. After that life was intended to become more serious, and while not necessarily totally devoid of enjoyment, that your life was supposed to come first. College, as I was taught, is your JOB for 2-4 years after high school if you choose to continue your education. If not, then the option isn't bumming around Europe, it's getting a real job and beginning to provide for yourself.

My hometown.... Middletown, CT is the home of one of the more well known pseudo-Ivy League Liberal Arts schools in the US.... Wesleyan University. We joked in my youth that for $42K a year at the end of 4 years they taught you the secret words for your career just before graduation.... "Would you like fries with that, Sir?" Wesleyan was named Playboy's top Party School at least twice in my youth. Growing up around that sort of environment I quickly learned what college SHOULD NOT BE.

My feeling is that college isn't just about academics, but also "team building" and "getting along". I work in an engineering department and there is a very strong feelings of being "team players". We even had T-shirts made up for the department. Some of those "Liberal Classes" teach just that. I'm glad that a harsh environment worked so well for you, but are you really looking at the "big picture"?

I also work in an engineering department. In fact I've worked in three different ones (structural engineering, architecture, and now electric utility) over the 16 years of my career. I see a lot of college grad Engineers with $200K educations that I wouldn't hire to dig a ditch for me because they have no idea of how the real world works. They spent 4-5 years partying and trying to get into the pants of the sorority girls while doing less work towards their degree than they should have. Then I (the CAD guy with a 2 year, $34K total degree) have to actually teach them how to do their jobs because they don't have the common sense or basic engineering skills God gave a beaver. Yet they've got a pretty little degree on the wall saying they get to make $20K a year more than I do.

Being a "team player" is something you should know how to do long before you GET to college, nevermind graduate from it. I hear this arguement that college is supposed to be about "learning who you are", "experimenting", "expanding your horizons", etc.... BULLSHIT. At $40K or more a year, that's an absolute JOKE. How many of these kids come out of college, having spent $100K+ of mom & dad's money and have no sense of where they're going, what their career will be, or any real-life skills to further their goals (if they even have any). That's an absolute waste of time and money.

I have to admit, this one was an "eye opener".

Oh, in what way was my commentary all that shocking and unexpected?

Everything you just wrote is "shocking", but not unexpected. I've discovered that many right wingers describe education from the way they "imagine" it to be, but the reality is something else entirely. Something outside their experience.

I didn't start studying engineering until I was 30. I spent my twenties in the military, partying and having fun. In my late 20's, I realized my friends were pretty much "gone". Working, raising families, my VA benefits were going to run out if I didn't start school. Even with the benefits, some money from work, I still ended up owing 56 thousand dollars. Was it worth it? Oh yes. Is it paid off? Now it is.

Funny you should mention CAD. I moved from the assembly line into engineering when they bought two 386SX computers with "Dr. Dos" and AutoCAD 2.5. No one in engineering even knew how to dimension the simplest of drawings. I've been CAD manager since Inventor 5. I included learning the program, which Autodesk gave out for free, as part of a project I was working on. Because of the lack of rework, and the success of the project, I was promoted into that position.

When it comes to young engineers being inexperienced you are absolutely correct. But that's were we part ways. Engineering at the university level is hard. You have at least four physics classes, at least three semesters of calculus which is a warm up for differential linear equations. Computer programming, statistics, and all the other engineering classes including your "senior design project". Who has time for partying and sorority girls? That's an outrageous statement. Doesn't even make sense.

I've mentored at least a dozen engineers in the last 10 years. Sure, they didn't know where to order or how to have things made, but they learn. One engineer I work with didn't know anything about working in an engineering department, but he learned and on weekends, he tutors physics at the University of Chicago. He's only 25. I work with another engineer who spends two nights a week at another company running their data base. We just got an intern from the University of Texas. I put this guy to work installing Vault Pro and reworking how we handle revisions in 3d models.

And the other engineers? One went to law school and became a patent engineer. He had his gas cut off to save money and ate at McDonald's. Another one works at Ford. Another one joined a research team for solar panels. One, and only one, went into real estate. He just couldn't get into the high pressure job of engineering, and you know the pressure.

Then you wrote, " I hear this arguement that college is supposed to be about "learning who you are", "experimenting", "expanding your horizons", etc.... BULLSHIT"

Well, you got the bullshit part right. " "learning who you are", "experimenting", "expanding your horizons" - this is how right wingers "imagine" college to be. Seriously, who could believe this is what college is all about? No one except those who haven't been to college.

I think if you had gone yourself, you might have an entirely different viewpoint about the merits of education, because if you stopped and thought about it, common sense would tell you this "fantasy" couldn't possibly exist, because if it did, we wouldn't have a single functioning company anywhere in the US.

I'm not saying there aren't "art departments" somewhere that might spend their time "partying" but I don't know. That's not what I went to school for. But I know about engineering. And suggesting that any engineering graduates are less than serious is just wrong. The less serious are weeded out in the first year.

 

[rdean]

Well, there is nothing wrong with teaching Karl Marx, however there is certainly something wrong with indoctrinating kids er young adults with Karl Marx...

Teach these kids Ayn Rand and Karl Marx (among others) and let them decide.

Teach them about Pol Pot, teach them the truth about Che Guevara.... Teach teach them the facts of Stalin and Mao.

The problem is, these communist educators selectively teach, not to mention the textbooks they use and the books that are "required" reading are generally partisan bullshit....

I'm sure none of them are teaching George Washington or Thomas Jefferson.

You know that in every communist revolution, the first people killed are teachers, college professors and the highly educated. We don't want "elitists" and "intellectuals" in our party. Hmmmm, where have I heard THAT before?????

 

[Toro]

I would enforce the Constitutional right to free speech on equal terms.

Not this constant crap of putting liberal kids at the entrances and conservative ones in the "Free speech zones."

I would also sue any college that didn't allow all students the same chance to voice thier views.

As it is now, only liberal ideals get heard constantly, conservative ones are moved out or shut down.

fyi; That's tyranny

Sort of like a Fairness Doctrine for higher education, eh?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I would enforce the Constitutional right to free speech on equal terms.

What does that even mean? Rights aren’t ‘enforced,’ they’re protected from government preemption or infringement. And ‘equal terms’ is gibberish as well.

Not this constant crap of putting liberal kids at the entrances and conservative ones in the "Free speech zones."

I would also sue any college that didn't allow all students the same chance to voice thier views.

On what grounds? What is your evidence that a given college administration is engaged in an overt campaign to silence political discourse?

As it is now, only liberal ideals get heard constantly, conservative ones are moved out or shut down.

fyi; That's tyranny

That’s a lot of opining and no evidence provided.

Harvard also does not allow Military recruiters or ROTC.

Wrong again:

Harvard University announced on Thursday (March 3) that it will formally welcome the Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps (NROTC) program back to campus, following the decision by Congress in December to repeal the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” law regarding military service.

Harvard President Drew Faust and Navy Secretary Ray Mabus will sign an agreement that will re-establish the Reserve Officers’ Training Corps’ (ROTC) formal presence on campus for the first time in nearly 40 years.

Harvard welcomes back ROTC | Harvard Gazette

 

[Anachronism]

I believe you have a narrow minded idea of what greek life actually is from watching the likes of Animal House and not knowing what it actually is to be greek. Ill agree that ones education should be their primary endeavour (something every fraternity recognizes) but that is not the only purpose. It should also be a time where one grows as a person. Go through and read the mission statements and values of fraternities and tell me that the true purpose isnt to make men better men. Also, its not a "frat" its a fraternity.

Actually, I can honestly say I've never seen the entirety of "Animal House". However, I grew up in a college town, went to college myself in a city with 7 or 8 colleges, lived for 3 years in another city with 9 or 10 colleges, and worked in that city after moving out of it for another 9 years. I have had the displeasure of being around college students on an almost daily basis for pretty much my entire life. The one group of college students who have consistantly impressed me the least are the members of the Greek societies, both male and female.

I don't need the mission statements, I've got the police blotters to tell me everything I need to know, thank you very much.

 

[Anachronism]

Everything you just wrote is "shocking", but not unexpected. I've discovered that many right wingers describe education from the way they "imagine" it to be, but the reality is something else entirely. Something outside their experience.

Remember, I'm the guy who got his first college roommate expelled for having weed in the dorm room. I've been there and done that.

When it comes to young engineers being inexperienced you are absolutely correct. But that's were we part ways. Engineering at the university level is hard. You have at least four physics classes, at least three semesters of calculus which is a warm up for differential linear equations. Computer programming, statistics, and all the other engineering classes including your "senior design project". Who has time for partying and sorority girls? That's an outrageous statement. Doesn't even make sense.

Come up here and spend a weekend on WPI's campus. That's Worcester Polytechnic Institute. One of the more prestigious engineering schools in New England. I think you might get your eyes opened more than a little bit.

Then you wrote, " I hear this arguement that college is supposed to be about "learning who you are", "experimenting", "expanding your horizons", etc.... BULLSHIT".

Well, you got the bullshit part right. " "learning who you are", "experimenting", "expanding your horizons" - this is how right wingers "imagine" college to be. Seriously, who could believe this is what college is all about? No one except those who haven't been to college.

Interestingly enough it's an arguement that I hear frequently both online and in person when I suggest that college needs to be more like a job and less like the debaucherous orgy that it is in so many places these days.

I think if you had gone yourself, you might have an entirely different viewpoint about the merits of education, because if you stopped and thought about it, common sense would tell you this "fantasy" couldn't possibly exist, because if it did, we wouldn't have a single functioning company anywhere in the US.

Actually I did go to college. As I mentioned earlier, I have an Associates of Science degree from Johnson & Wales University in Providence, RI. I lived both years in on campus housing. I can probably count the number of parties I attended on one hand with fingers to spare. I stopped counting the number of people I knew in the dorm who were expelled for having illegal substances on campus in the middle of my freshman year at 20. I had to call 911 one night for a classmate's SECOND case of alcohol poisoning in 10 days. I stopped one roommate from date-raping his girlfriend in our room one night. I got another expelled for having marijuana in our dorm room. I got the full picture of what many kids thing college is supposed to be about, and it has very little to do with academics, thank you very much.

I'm not saying there aren't "art departments" somewhere that might spend their time "partying" but I don't know. That's not what I went to school for. But I know about engineering. And suggesting that any engineering graduates are less than serious is just wrong. The less serious are weeded out in the first year.

I think you may have a little too high a view of some of the children who are graduating with engineering degrees these days, rdean. At least in the structural, electrical, utility, and architecture fields. I literally had a 25 year old engineer tell me our company was in business to keep the lights on and that the contractor we were dealing with was in business to build houses. I almost slapped him right then and there for sheer stupidity. It took TWO times to get him to understand that EVERY BUSINESS exists for one reason only.... TO MAKE MONEY; and that given the option the contractor would put his grandmother in the hole to replace $50 worth of fill dirt. Engineers who can't draw a simple schematic one-line electrical diagram. An engineer who I had to teach how to read a basic blueprint. These are all WPI or RPI grads I'm talking about here.

 

[rdean]

Everything you just wrote is "shocking", but not unexpected. I've discovered that many right wingers describe education from the way they "imagine" it to be, but the reality is something else entirely. Something outside their experience.

Remember, I'm the guy who got his first college roommate expelled for having weed in the dorm room. I've been there and done that.

When it comes to young engineers being inexperienced you are absolutely correct. But that's were we part ways. Engineering at the university level is hard. You have at least four physics classes, at least three semesters of calculus which is a warm up for differential linear equations. Computer programming, statistics, and all the other engineering classes including your "senior design project". Who has time for partying and sorority girls? That's an outrageous statement. Doesn't even make sense.

Come up here and spend a weekend on WPI's campus. That's Worcester Polytechnic Institute. One of the more prestigious engineering schools in New England. I think you might get your eyes opened more than a little bit.



Interestingly enough it's an arguement that I hear frequently both online and in person when I suggest that college needs to be more like a job and less like the debaucherous orgy that it is in so many places these days.

I think if you had gone yourself, you might have an entirely different viewpoint about the merits of education, because if you stopped and thought about it, common sense would tell you this "fantasy" couldn't possibly exist, because if it did, we wouldn't have a single functioning company anywhere in the US.

Actually I did go to college. As I mentioned earlier, I have an Associates of Science degree from Johnson & Wales University in Providence, RI. I lived both years in on campus housing. I can probably count the number of parties I attended on one hand with fingers to spare. I stopped counting the number of people I knew in the dorm who were expelled for having illegal substances on campus in the middle of my freshman year at 20. I had to call 911 one night for a classmate's SECOND case of alcohol poisoning in 10 days. I stopped one roommate from date-raping his girlfriend in our room one night. I got another expelled for having marijuana in our dorm room. I got the full picture of what many kids thing college is supposed to be about, and it has very little to do with academics, thank you very much.

I'm not saying there aren't "art departments" somewhere that might spend their time "partying" but I don't know. That's not what I went to school for. But I know about engineering. And suggesting that any engineering graduates are less than serious is just wrong. The less serious are weeded out in the first year.

I think you may have a little too high a view of some of the children who are graduating with engineering degrees these days, rdean. At least in the structural, electrical, utility, and architecture fields. I literally had a 25 year old engineer tell me our company was in business to keep the lights on and that the contractor we were dealing with was in business to build houses. I almost slapped him right then and there for sheer stupidity. It took TWO times to get him to understand that EVERY BUSINESS exists for one reason only.... TO MAKE MONEY; and that given the option the contractor would put his grandmother in the hole to replace $50 worth of fill dirt. Engineers who can't draw a simple schematic one-line electrical diagram. An engineer who I had to teach how to read a basic blueprint. These are all WPI or RPI grads I'm talking about here.

It's difficult to believe. I know how hard it is to earn an engineering degree.

But I do have to wonder how you keep ending up in such dire circumstances? Getting people busted. Date rape? Drugs?

"Engineers who can't draw a simple schematic one-line electrical diagram?" I never met an electrical engineer who couldn't do that.

Johnson & Wales University (JWU) in Providence, Rhode Island

I visited the site and was looking over their list of "Degrees". I have to admit, I'm not very impressed. What is an "Associates of Science degree"? Their "engineering" is either "other" or "Technician". What is an "other"?

And I've never seen an institution where so many students were receiving aid.

Students Receiving Aid 91%
Students Receiving Institutional Aid 85%

Perhaps you went to the wrong institution and it left you with a warped point of view. I've never heard of the stuff you write about among engineering students. I know. I was one. Who has time for "alcohol poisoning"? I will have to share your letter with the engineers I know. I wonder what their experience is like compared to yours?

 

[editec]

So don't you think that at least the ruling class would need that liberal arts education? After all, the science of society is no less valid and uselful than the sciences of industrialism. One needs to control the great unwashed masses in your ideal state, no? Engineers and specialist of hard sciences aren't equipped to do that. Errr...not very well at least.

I've never said that liberal arts shouldn't be taught, just that it should not be the basis for most degree programs. Then again I see Government as an extension of the Business environment, not sociology or psychology.

There's much to be said (EVEN IN A FEUDAL SOCIETY) for the ruling classes understanding things like history, psychology, sociology, anthopology, etc...

On the advisory level, yes. On the actual leadership level, HELL NO. With the exception of history (which I don't really consider a liberal art anyway).

And while I'm at it, consider what the world would be like with NO ARTS thrown into the mix.

Again, I've never said that art or the liberal arts shouldn't exist. If someone feels they can make a living at it, go right ahead. Just don't expect the government to pay you unemployment or to sponsor your work in any way to keep you from starving to death or being killed by exposure when you can't pay your rent.

Are we ANTS meant only to produce (reporduce) and die?

To a certain degree, YES.

Let's see if I can explain this better....

Let's look at my college degree (Associate of Science in Computer Aided Drafting). It's a two year program focused almost exclusively on the skills necessary to succeed in that business. It included one business elective and one humanities elective in addition to the four English classes, three Math classes, and Physics class we were required to take.

My first class Freshman year was a hardboard drafting class. 8am M-Th, every week for 11 weeks. If the school operated in the standard model, I wouldn't have seen a class related to my major until at least the second half of my Sophomore year. Instead I would have wasted a year and a half on classes that largely held no relevance to my chosen career path. Therefore it would have ended up being a 4 year program, costing at the very least twice what it did, and getting me no more prepared for my career.

So basically you're not really advocating any real change EXCEPT that you think more students OUGHT TO get degrees in industrial and hard science diciplines.

To the extent that liberal arts education cannot possibly lead most people to meaningful jobs where they get to apply that specialized knowledge in the workplace, I understand that POV.

Colleges respond to changes in what the students WANT to study.

In my last year as an underclassman at BU, one out of every four college freshman indicated they were going PREMED.

BU's response was going to be (this according to a speech by the, then President John Silber, incidently) was going to be to WASH OUT by academic dicipline MOST of those students.

Now in the FEUDAL world you tell me that you'd like to see us return to, there'll be damned little need for many educated people (or ANY non-educated people).

And in a modern feudal world (given the rapid changes in technology that we're experiencing) there'd be damned little need for MOST PEOPLE.

We are ALREADY seeing the elimination of jobs that MOST people can do.

And that trend of making the average worker reducdant is only going to become more rapid.

Your skill sets (Computer Aided Drafting) are going to become worthless fairly soon, Anach.

I remember CLEARLY back in the 1960s when mechanical drawing was a highly worthwhile career to pursue.

Computer aided design eliminated MOST of those jobs.

Your career as a skilled CAD tech probably won't last much longer, either.

Sure SOME people will be doing CAD work, but so much more efficiently that many of those techs currently in demand are going to become redundant.

I hope you've got an exit strategy to prepare for that inevitable progress that is going to make many in your current profession redundant.

A highly technologically advancing society eliminates careers paths much much MUCH faster than most people can adapt to the change.

That is very much PART of the reason that so many people are already no longer economically viable citizens.

 

[Wry Catcher]

"I would enforce the Constitutional right to free speech on equal terms."
Congress shall make no law...; Remember, the Free Speech Movement began at CAL


"Not this constant crap of putting liberal kids at the entrances and conservative ones in the "Free speech zones."" Huh? Evidence please

"I would also sue any college that didn't allow all students the same chance to voice thier views." You don't have standing to do so

"fyi; That's tyranny" You don't seem to have a clue as to what tyranny is

USATODAY.com - On campus: Free speech for you but not for me?

Academic Freedom and Conservative Speech on Campus | Penn News

Conservative Activism On Campus |

Want more?

Tyranny is an unrestrained use of power.

Shutting down conservative speech is tyranny.

Your links are a little odd.

The one from USA Today was the longest. While there was a lot of complaining about "leftist views" and "Conservatives not being allowed to speak", the examples were were few and far between.

But the students were able to achieve their objectives. For instance:

University of Minnesota, Twin Cities. A student group for Christians sued the school over its requirement that student groups sign a statement that they are open to all students regardless of religion, marital status or sexual orientation.

You see, the sued for the right to discriminate and won.

In June, administrators said they would drop some restrictions and pay $93,000 in attorneys' fees to settle a lawsuit by student abortion protesters.

While I'm not sure what Abortion has to do with college, right wingers still protested.

In the "Lesbian Conservative" the only real example is on "Climate Change". I wasn't aware that right wing scientists even had evidence the climate isn't changing.

And in the third link: Academic Freedom and Conservative Speech on Campus - I can't seem to figure out what the outcry is about. It looks like it could be not being able to protest abortion in the "Latin Grammar" class.

When it comes to colleges and universities, it's more than "free speech". You have to prove that you know what you are talking about. That includes "data" and "evidence". You can't just make "wild claims".

A "little odd" wasn't exactly my take on the links, but it suffices. I almost spit out my coffee & lol when I saw those who thanked the author for these links. There is no better evidence for the existence of the echo chamber.

 

[Wry Catcher]

This thead posed an interesting question, what would make higher education less liberal? Thinking about the meaning of the word "liberal" within the context of this question, liberal has been used (once again) as a pejorative by the author of the OP.

If liberal mean more, and conservatives means less, why would anyone want less education? I understnd Anacro's point, but why wouldn't CAD and other technological training be part of secondary educational programming?

The broad issues are these:

Not everyone wants or needs a four year college degree.

The drop-out rates for public schools is outrageous.

Generally, once a child has completed the first two years of HS, can read, write and compute, has taken US History and Civics, much of what follows is geared towards college, not employment.

Allowing kids with tactial learning abilities to walk, touch, manipulate, build, take-apart, inspect and engage in the tech world makes sense. Every school district might consider a comprehensive polythechnical school, or regional occupational centers where the myriad of tech jobs are introduced to those interested, the child can choose to spend his/her final two years in achieving both a HS diploma and a certificate in a chosen field.

Such a program is not for every kid, but what we offer today is not for every kid either.

 

[Samson]

Someone, please reply to Wry so he feels relevent.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Someone, please reply to Wry so he feels relevent.

I wonder sammie boy what motivates you? You rarely offer anything beyond a glib ad hominem (Glib, meaning, "readily fluent, often thoughtlessly, superficially, or insincerely").

I don't need to 'feel' relevent, or to post thoughtless and superficial attacks on others. Those I hold in disdain, and that includes you and seveal others, have earned my disrespect for the arrogant, self righteous, smug and cowardly manner in which they (you) post.

If you disagree with my thoughts on technical education on a secondary level, please post your ideas, if you have any. Over the time I've posted on the message board, your contributions are mostly limited to the blib sort of childish comments made above.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to offer my observations. Have a wonderful day.

 

[Anachronism]

It's difficult to believe. I know how hard it is to earn an engineering degree.

I'm not saying it isn't difficult to get an Engineering Degree. I don't have one. I have a CAD degree. However, in the last 5-6 years I've had the immense displeasure of working with a number of brand-new, wet behind the ears Electrical Engineers who were not even close to ready to join the workforce at the end of their programs so far as I'm concerned.

But I do have to wonder how you keep ending up in such dire circumstances? Getting people busted. Date rape? Drugs?

Mostly because I actually have some morals and values which mean that I can't turn a blind eye to certain things. I also ended up with a crop of the worst roommates that you could imagine over the course of my two years in college. A bunch of total losers. Only one decent one among the whole bunch.

"Engineers who can't draw a simple schematic one-line electrical diagram?" I never met an electrical engineer who couldn't do that.

Inevitably I have ended up teaching every single one of the young engineers I've dealt with in the last half decade how to properly draw a one-line diagram. Their biggest mistake is generally either only drawing the new work portion (not showing what it's connected to); or failing to follow the entire feeder out and determine whether they can do what they want without having to upgrade the entire line. Pretty basic stuff.

I visited the site and was looking over their list of "Degrees". I have to admit, I'm not very impressed. What is an "Associates of Science degree"? Their "engineering" is either "other" or "Technician". What is an "other"?

Try this link.... http://www.jwu.edu/content.aspx?id=10384#fbid=wrIlRH1f5kZ That is the newest version of the program I was involved in. They've totally changed their philosophy in the last two decades. Under the current system I wouldn't even have considered their program. They've become very much like every other school in the country.... lib arts based and they've lost many of the requirements (attendance, etc...) that I felt put them above most other schools.

Perhaps you went to the wrong institution and it left you with a warped point of view. I've never heard of the stuff you write about among engineering students. I know. I was one. Who has time for "alcohol poisoning"? I will have to share your letter with the engineers I know. I wonder what their experience is like compared to yours?

At the time (early 1990's) JWU was the only school east of the Rocky Mountains offering a DEGREE program in CAD. There was one other place in CA, but I wasn't interested in moving all the way across the country for two years. At the time the School of Technology included Engineering Tech, Comp Sci and CAD as its only three offerings. The alcohol poisoning incident happened to another CAD student.

 

[Anachronism]

So basically you're not really advocating any real change EXCEPT that you think more students OUGHT TO get degrees in industrial and hard science diciplines.

To the extent that liberal arts education cannot possibly lead most people to meaningful jobs where they get to apply that specialized knowledge in the workplace, I understand that POV.

Personally, I don't believe those liberal arts degrees should really even be offered. Definitely not the ones that do not have a career path associated with them. They're an absolute and utter waste of time and resources. Remove the programs, you remove the classes, you remove the faculty, and you've cut out most of the Liberal portions of the college industry here in the USA.

Colleges respond to changes in what the students WANT to study.

You've hit upon one of the biggest problems in our society today.... "I WANT...." Not "I NEED...." Not "I DESERVE...." Not "I'VE EARNED....." "I WANT....." There are a whole lot of things in this world that I want or would like to have. I also know that the vast majority of them will never come my way, even if I work for them. So I've learned to live with the "I NEED..." and "I'VE EARNED...." level of things. Similar to the "What SHOULD I do" versus "What CAN I do" commentary I've made any number of times around here.

Now in the FEUDAL world you tell me that you'd like to see us return to, there'll be damned little need for many educated people (or ANY non-educated people). And in a modern feudal world (given the rapid changes in technology that we're experiencing) there'd be damned little need for MOST PEOPLE. We are ALREADY seeing the elimination of jobs that MOST people can do. And that trend of making the average worker reducdant is only going to become more rapid.

You are correct that the Feudal model I prefer requires far fewer skilled and educated laborers. I would probably require more today than it did 500-1000 years ago because of the different level of technology we have today, but even that would not mean a whole lot over the course of the society as a whole. Of course the Nationalistic and Isolationist philosophy that I subscribe to DOES increase that number since the technical people in other countries wouldn't be allowed to influence this society. Most people would be working at the unskilled laborer level; which is where most modern Americans deserve to be working considering their work ethic and skill levels.

Your skill sets (Computer Aided Drafting) are going to become worthless fairly soon, Anach. I remember CLEARLY back in the 1960s when mechanical drawing was a highly worthwhile career to pursue. Computer aided design eliminated MOST of those jobs. Your career as a skilled CAD tech probably won't last much longer, either. Sure SOME people will be doing CAD work, but so much more efficiently that many of those techs currently in demand are going to become redundant.

Very true. Technology is always evolving. In fact much of my job now is based on a GIS system rather than straight CAD. Personally, I'd rather go back to a fully CAD oriented system, but until I can find another job that's not a choice I get to make.

I hope you've got an exit strategy to prepare for that inevitable progress that is going to make many in your current profession redundant.

Yes I do. It involves a 1911 style handgun, 1 round of .45ACP ammunition and the bottom of my chin.

A highly technologically advancing society eliminates careers paths much much MUCH faster than most people can adapt to the change. That is very much PART of the reason that so many people are already no longer economically viable citizens.

Part of that is because our standard of living has become so ridiculously high that one needs to have two incomes to even consider getting there. THAT is the biggest problem so far as I'm concerned. We've become so intent on keeping up with the Jones' that we're forcing ourselves right out of economic viability. My system puts many of those people back to work in the agricultural industry and the localization that would become necessary with the reduction in available oil actually helps recreate skilled labor jobs because people couldn't get things from the other side of the country overnight anymore.

 

[sparky]

This thead posed an interesting question, what would make higher education less liberal? Thinking about the meaning of the word "liberal" within the context of this question, liberal has been used (once again) as a pejorative by the author of the OP.

If liberal mean more, and conservatives means less, why would anyone want less education? I understnd Anacro's point, but why wouldn't CAD and other technological training be part of secondary educational programming?

The broad issues are these:

Not everyone wants or needs a four year college degree.

The drop-out rates for public schools is outrageous.

Generally, once a child has completed the first two years of HS, can read, write and compute, has taken US History and Civics, much of what follows is geared towards college, not employment.

Allowing kids with tactial learning abilities to walk, touch, manipulate, build, take-apart, inspect and engage in the tech world makes sense. Every school district might consider a comprehensive polythechnical school, or regional occupational centers where the myriad of tech jobs are introduced to those interested, the child can choose to spend his/her final two years in achieving both a HS diploma and a certificate in a chosen field.

Such a program is not for every kid, but what we offer today is not for every kid either.

i think perhaps this might fit here>
ThinkProgress » REPORT: Meet The Billionaires Who Are Trying To Privatize Our Schools And Kill Public Education

A tight-knit group of right-wing millionaires and billionaires, bankers, industrialists, lobby shops, and hardcore ideologues has been plotting this war on public education, quietly setting up front group after front group to promote the idea that the only way to save public education is to destroy it — disguising their movement with the innocent-sounding moniker of “school choice.”

 

[sparky]

Quote: Originally Posted by editec
I hope you've got an exit strategy to prepare for that inevitable progress that is going to make many in your current profession redundant.

Yes I do. It involves a 1911 style handgun, 1 round of .45ACP ammunition and the bottom of my chin.

well, the potential there is the up & comming generation, the majority of whom are faced with unemployment, and burdended with student loans

so i would foward either rethinking that notion, or providing for substaintial firepower....

Quote: Originally Posted by editec
A highly technologically advancing society eliminates careers paths much much MUCH faster than most people can adapt to the change. That is very much PART of the reason that so many people are already no longer economically viable citizens.

Part of that is because our standard of living has become so ridiculously high that one needs to have two incomes to even consider getting there. THAT is the biggest problem so far as I'm concerned. We've become so intent on keeping up with the Jones' that we're forcing ourselves right out of economic viability. My system puts many of those people back to work in the agricultural industry and the localization that would become necessary with the reduction in available oil actually helps recreate skilled labor jobs because people couldn't get things from the other side of the country overnight anymore.

out of curiousity, just what expenditure , or expenditure(s) would you consider frivelous , decadent, unnessecary in today's SOL?

 

[Jazmine]

How would the right change the way "science" is taught to make it more "conservative" and still have it be called "science"?

Science is better done when not tainted by politics.

What about history? What would be taught "differently"?

Less revisionism, actually looking at what happened, and not cherry picking based on political bias.

How would the right change colleges and universities to make them more "acceptable"?

Really it boils down to freedom of thought, and freedom to explore evidence and present any ideas. There would be more science departments with the freedom to genuinely exploring things like Intelligent Design and Climate Change, and following evidence without trying to decide where it needs to go based on political motives beforehand. There would be more diversity of ideas. Christian principles would be valid. looking for absolute and objective truth would be valid. Students would be free to challenge their professors and wrestle with ideas (like in seminaries).

And most importantly the Humanities and the Hard Sciences would not be forced to contradict each other so much. It would be possible to form better connections between the two reflecting the reality of the totality of human experience