Unions, Strikes, and My Entry Into Local Politics

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Dear, that's Ayn Ran's argument for firing someone after interviewing them for 20 hours and they turned down every other offer and eventually lost everything they had.

do you want to try that again in understandable English??

 

[Indeependent]

Dear, that's Ayn Ran's argument for firing someone after interviewing them for 20 hours and they turned down every other offer and eventually lost everything they had.

do you want to try that again in understandable English??

Sure...
I interview at 3 corporations.
The minimum interview time for each corporation is 10 hours, usually spread over 2 days, with one being close to 20 hours, spread over a week.
All 3 make comparable offers and the candidate accepts 1 and is hired.
6 months later the CEO of the selected corporation goes to a banquet and gets into a discussion with CEOs from the same industry.
They come to the conclusion that's it's okay to fire a significant number of American employees and replace them with business visas.
After all, their wives need bigger breasts and they all want a bigger bonus than they received the prior year.

Conclusion...thousands are laid off because Mr. CEO Pig had a de facto Union meeting with his fellow CEOs and, as a result, ruined a lot of lives.
This is a TEXTBOOK example of Ayn Rand's FEEL GOOD Objective Realism.
The ONLY logic involved is self-interest, not even the good of the company or the stockholders.
NO LOGIC, pure FEEL GOOD.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The ONLY logic involved is self-interest, not even the good of the company or the stockholders.

Dear, you are independent of brains. Business is competitive thanks to capitalism. If a CEO does not beat the competition and reward shareholders he gets fired or the corporation goes bankrupt. Under socialism there is little or no competition so then games like you describe are possible.

Now do you understand??

 

[Indeependent]

The ONLY logic involved is self-interest, not even the good of the company or the stockholders.

Dear, you are independent of brains. Business is competitive thanks to capitalism. If a CEO does not beat the competition and reward shareholders he gets fired or the corporation goes bankrupt. Under socialism there is little or no competition so then games like you describe are possible.

Now do you understand??

Dear, your brain probably died when you read Page 1 of Atlas Shrugged.
I presume you are either a scumbag CEO or an old phart living off of your Slave Labor Intensive Investments.
It's obvious to me you never worked on Wall Street for a Fortune 500 Firm.
And yes, I have worked on Wall Street for a few Fortune 500 Firms.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The ONLY logic involved is self-interest, not even the good of the company or the stockholders.

Dear, you are independent of brains. Business is competitive thanks to capitalism. If a CEO does not beat the competition and reward shareholders he gets fired or the corporation goes bankrupt. Under socialism there is little or no competition so then games like you describe are possible.

Now do you understand??

Dear, your brain probably died when you read Page 1 of Atlas Shrugged.
I presume you are either a scumbag CEO or an old phart living off of your Slave Labor Intensive Investments.
It's obvious to me you never worked on Wall Street for a Fortune 500 Firm.
And yes, I have worked on Wall Street for a few Fortune 500 Firms.

translation: I'm independent of brains thus cant respond substantively

 

[Indeependent]

The ONLY logic involved is self-interest, not even the good of the company or the stockholders.

Dear, you are independent of brains. Business is competitive thanks to capitalism. If a CEO does not beat the competition and reward shareholders he gets fired or the corporation goes bankrupt. Under socialism there is little or no competition so then games like you describe are possible.

Now do you understand??

Dear, your brain probably died when you read Page 1 of Atlas Shrugged.
I presume you are either a scumbag CEO or an old phart living off of your Slave Labor Intensive Investments.
It's obvious to me you never worked on Wall Street for a Fortune 500 Firm.
And yes, I have worked on Wall Street for a few Fortune 500 Firms.

translation: I'm independent of brains thus cant respond substantively

Minus ad hominems...
[Yes/No] Have you ever worked for a Fortune 500 Entity?
[Yes/No] Are you an old phart living off of your Slave Labor Intensive Investments?
Simply answer each question yes or no.
If you don't, I'll know you're just another brain dead Nazi Neo-Conservative fan of Ayn Rand's "FEEL GOOD" Objective Realism.

 

[Anathema]

Unions are entirely appropriate in the private sector, in competitive industries. If a majority of the similarly-situated workers agree, a CBA is worthwhile. OTOH, in public utilities, government (particularly in education), health care and for delivery of essential public services (e.g., mass transit), the "right to strike" has no legitimate place.

I have to correct you on one thing...... Public Utilities are called that because they are available to the public. In almost all cases they are employees of PRIVATE companies who own the facilities in that area or who are contracted by local communities or states to provide their services. Thise utilities are REGULATED by the Government but o ly rarely owned by it.

A college professor recently asked his "socialist" students if they would like to implement their chose philosophy in the classroom: He would give every student the same grade as the worst student in the class; they declined. This is what unionism is: every worker gets the same pay as the worst employee in the CBU. It doesn't have to be that way. Professional unions in Europe work hand-in-hand with management to make the companies more competitive and successful. Here the Unions' attitude is, "Fuck everybody else; we want everything we can get!"

No. Every employee gets paid the same as the other individuals doing the same job as them. An Apprentice Lineman doesn't get paid the same as an Underground Crew Leader or a Call Center Representative A. Nor should they. HOWEVER, that same Apprentice Lineman shouldn't be paid any more than his fellow apprentices in a different office just because his mom knows the hiring manager or because his dad works in the Field Engineering Department of the company.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The ONLY logic involved is self-interest, not even the good of the company or the stockholders.

Dear, you are independent of brains. Business is competitive thanks to capitalism. If a CEO does not beat the competition and reward shareholders he gets fired or the corporation goes bankrupt. Under socialism there is little or no competition so then games like you describe are possible.

Now do you understand??

Dear, your brain probably died when you read Page 1 of Atlas Shrugged.
I presume you are either a scumbag CEO or an old phart living off of your Slave Labor Intensive Investments.
It's obvious to me you never worked on Wall Street for a Fortune 500 Firm.
And yes, I have worked on Wall Street for a few Fortune 500 Firms.

translation: I'm independent of brains thus cant respond substantively

Minus ad hominems...
[Yes/No] Have you ever worked for a Fortune 500 Entity?
[Yes/No] Are you an old phart living off of your Slave Labor Intensive Investments?
Simply answer each question yes or no.
If you don't, I'll know you're just another brain dead Nazi Neo-Conservative fan of Ayn Rand's "FEEL GOOD" Objective Realism.

dear, cut the BS. if you have an argument against the conservative arguments of Aristotle Cicero Locke Jefferson and Friedman please present it or admit you are independent of the brains needed to do so. Thanks

 

[Indeependent]

The ONLY logic involved is self-interest, not even the good of the company or the stockholders.

Dear, you are independent of brains. Business is competitive thanks to capitalism. If a CEO does not beat the competition and reward shareholders he gets fired or the corporation goes bankrupt. Under socialism there is little or no competition so then games like you describe are possible.

Now do you understand??

Dear, your brain probably died when you read Page 1 of Atlas Shrugged.
I presume you are either a scumbag CEO or an old phart living off of your Slave Labor Intensive Investments.
It's obvious to me you never worked on Wall Street for a Fortune 500 Firm.
And yes, I have worked on Wall Street for a few Fortune 500 Firms.

translation: I'm independent of brains thus cant respond substantively

Minus ad hominems...
[Yes/No] Have you ever worked for a Fortune 500 Entity?
[Yes/No] Are you an old phart living off of your Slave Labor Intensive Investments?
Simply answer each question yes or no.
If you don't, I'll know you're just another brain dead Nazi Neo-Conservative fan of Ayn Rand's "FEEL GOOD" Objective Realism.

dear, cut the BS. if you have an argument against the conservative arguments of Aristotle Cicero Locke Jefferson and Friedman please present it or admit you are independent of the brains needed to do so. Thanks

Dear, I deal with reality, not with theory that MAY or may NOT work in various times and locales.
So you're just an old Nazi phart; thanks for not answering honestly.

Check out Friedman's speech on why the Great Depression lasted so long...Too much Foreign Investment and not enough Domestic Quantitative Easing. Sound familiar?
I guess you and Friedman are suffering from the same type of Dementia.

Anyway, Good Shabbos!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

So you're just an old Nazi

why be stupid?? Conservatives believe in limited govt while Nazis believed in unlimited govt?? Do you understand?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I guess you and Friedman are suffering from the same type of Dementia.

dear, if you feel Friedman was wrong about something please say exactly what or admit you lack the IQ for it!!

 

[Jarlaxle]

You are a fucking idiot.

the simple truth is that private employees should not allowed to unionize either. Either prices are set by the free market or by union violence. Which makes more sense?

You are (still) a fucking idiot.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

You are a fucking idiot.

the simple truth is that private employees should not allowed to unionize either. Either prices are set by the free market or by union violence. Which makes more sense?

You are (still) a fucking idiot.

the simple truth is that private employees should not allowed to unionize either. Either prices are set by the free market or by union violence. Which makes more sense?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Are you stuck on stupid or do you just hate liberty?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Are you stuck on stupid or do you just hate liberty?

the simple truth is that private employees should not allowed to unionize either. Either prices are set by the free market or by union violence. Which makes more sense and why?

 

[Indeependent]

I guess you and Friedman are suffering from the same type of Dementia.

dear, if you feel Friedman was wrong about something please say exactly what or admit you lack the IQ for it!!

I have heard Friedman's theories straight out of his mouth.
His theories require non-greedy human intervention AND...Comparative Advantage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FAIL!!!
Guess what...his theories are just that...theories...They are a total failure in reality.
Are you too stupid to see that?
You're blinded by your self-serving greed.

You never had to deal with business visas taking away from you one job after another.
And now your investments are way over-valued because of cheap labor and you don't give a damn about anyone else.

 

[Cecilie1200]

great, planning for liberal violence to get ahead in life !!! Why not go find a job where you have a peaceful voluntary relationship with your employer based on what you both think you're worth??

No. Planning for the potential of a work stoppage due to my employer's well-documented unwillingness to sit down until the last minute and negotiate in good faith. There hasn't been a work stoppage here for more than 25 years, but the company has repeatedly put off bargaining new contracts until the very last moment and relying on extensions to get through negotiations.

As the Steward for my Department I've already been looking at what we need to discuss when we do finally enter into negotiations with the company. On the other hand, I'm sure my boss and his boss (the ones sitting on the other side of the table), probably won't even start considering these things until mere hours or days before we sit down to talk. Then they wonder why nothing gets done in a timely manner when we do sit down.

I've worked as a contractor, a non-union employee and as a union member. I have zero interest in going back to being an employee-at-will. I just want to know what my job is, what the expectations are, and what my compensation will be. IN WRITING. With no questions about what certain language or expectations mean. That's why I have no more interest in at-will employment.

Who said anything about "going back to at-will"? Are you even reading this thread, or just debating the voices in your head?

Postal workers are barred by federal law from striking, because they are considered essential to public good. They nevertheless have a very strong union, the APWU, which is affiliated with the AFL-CIO, and they get excellent terms in all their contract negotiations, with a whole lot less hemming and hawing about it.

Police officers are barred from striking just about everywhere, but they always have the PBA or local equivalent that bargains hard on their behalf.

There is nothing about saying, "You cannot shut down the city and hold people's lives hostage to your demands" that requires dissolution of union representation.

Actually, the simple truth is that public employees should not be permitted to unionize. Even Franklin Roosevelt realized that.

I can't really argue with that, nor do I care to. None of the government employees in my state are being screwed over, in wages or in benefits, nor do the governments they work for want to do so. They like to babble on about how comparable employees of other states make more money, but they always compare themselves to states with much higher costs of living. Fact of the matter is, you make $20 an hour and 100% benefits for nothing more than a high school diploma, a CDL (which the company will help you get), and a clean driving record, you are doing fantastic and living well. And the city doesn't want to cut that in half, no matter what the Teamsters say, because the city knows perfectly well that it has to compete with private trucking companies for those people. Plus, they're elected officials; they start mistreating employees, the voters will have them in the unemployment line in a heartbeat.

Government employee unions are nothing more than thugs, disrupting the peaceful, day-to-day order of society in order to line their own pockets.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's funny how leftists are ALL about how others should sacrifice for "the greater good", but when it's THEIR turn to do so, suddenly they're bewildered by the idea that they should think of anyone but themselves.

Like me, these employees are employed by a PRIVATE company that provides a PUBLIC service that the Government should not actually have any involvement with (public transportation and utilities).

Since these are PRIVATE companies "the greater good" is not a consideration.

10 years ago I'd have told you that I would never join a Union. Then I started working for the company I work for now. Within 2 years I was asked to consider helping with a movement to Unionize the Engineering and Design Departments. Initially I declined; until I sat down and really looked at it as logically as I could. At that moment it became clear that I had two choices...... Fight for Unionization or start lookibg for a new job.

I'm very glad I made the choice I did. It's not a perfect situation but it's far better than ehat the other option would have been.

Oh, and I'm a customer of the company I work for, as are most of my co-workers, so there's no point in us "screwing the company or customers". In fact our Union(s) is/are one of the strongest defenders of our customers.

Not quite, Chuckles. The bus drivers are employed by a private company employed by the government. They aren't civil servants directly, but they work for people who are, basically.

You are quite incorrect that the local government shouldn't be involved in providing public transportation. It is vitally necessary in a city like Tucson, and it is very much the job of local government to empower the poor, the elderly, the handicapped, etc. to be productive members of the community and better their lives. That is what we have local governments for. Notice that I said "empower them", not "give them handouts". Tucson originally had three public bus systems, and it was a disjointed mess. That's why the city purchased them and consolidated them into one mass transit system.

The fact that this IS about the public good is the exact reason why the city operates a government-owned and funded transit system. There's certainly privately-owned public transportation in the city, but the sheer size of the Tucson metropolitan area makes it inaccessibly financially to large segments of the community. We (the people of Tucson) want those segments to work, attend medical appointments, go to school, etc. and so we agreed to pay for it.

Now we have the Teamsters and a bunch of self-absorbed, entitled assholes deciding it's all about them and pretending that we employ them for THEIR benefit, shutting down the system, and bragging about it like we're all supposed to applaud and admire.

And by the way: none of the bus drivers actually ride the buses themselves. In fact, one of their sob stories to try to garner sympathy for how much they needed more money was the cost of owning and maintaining a car in order to drive to work. Needless to say, this argument impressed no one.

When I worked for the Post Office, the APWU was one of the biggest supporters of the postal service, lobbying Congress on its behalf, since the USPS is legally barred from doing so itself. The Teamsters, on the other hand, really doesn't give a damn how much damage it causes to the city or to the bus system. Or even to their own drivers, apparently, because right now they are the most hated people in the city, and the level of hostility and driver harassment has increased since the strike ended. I know some drivers who remove their uniforms as soon as they get off work, because they don't want to go out in public identified as Sun Tran drivers right now.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have worked in labor and management, public and private sectors, and I was briefly a member of Teamsters Local 249.

Unions are entirely appropriate in the private sector, in competitive industries. If a majority of the similarly-situated workers agree, a CBA is worthwhile. OTOH, in public utilities, government (particularly in education), health care and for delivery of essential public services (e.g., mass transit), the "right to strike" has no legitimate place.

It has long been known that in the public sector, the vital interests of the workers, on the one hand, go up against the convenience and comfort of "management," which might even benefit with a too-generous CBA. In the private sector a too-generous CBA might result in the company going bankrupt. The results of public-sector unionism are manifest around the country. Wages and benefits continue to ratchet up regardless of the state of the economy or the revenues coming into government, and Democrat administrations "give away the store," in order to ensure union support in coming elections. The result is public employees who have pay and benefits that exceed all but the most generous employers in the locality, and they have early and generous retirement plans that, in past years, bankrupted every private sector company that had comparable plans. And a compliant Press always downplays the poor retired government workers whose benefits are threatened, never mentioning that that poor worker retired at age 52.

Here in Pennsylvania, 5,000 State Liquor store workers are holding the entire state population hostage, as our intransigent Democrat governor refuses to privatize a perverse, inefficient, failing liquor sales system that dates back to the Prohibition. And the Media REFUSE to acknowledge the fact that the Governor is kissing the government workers' union's ass.

A college professor recently asked his "socialist" students if they would like to implement their chose philosophy in the classroom: He would give every student the same grade as the worst student in the class; they declined. This is what unionism is: every worker gets the same pay as the worst employee in the CBU. It doesn't have to be that way. Professional unions in Europe work hand-in-hand with management to make the companies more competitive and successful. Here the Unions' attitude is, "Fuck everybody else; we want everything we can get!"

Quite true. Sun Tran doesn't make enough money off of fares to break even, not by a long shot. There is actually talk of them cutting some of the outlying bus routes that don't get a lot of passengers, because they can't afford to run them. This is not the first time they've done this. They receive funding subsidies from various government entities to continue functioning. Nevertheless, we have now increased the operating costs by basically making driver and mechanic salaries comparable with those paid to police officers and firefighters.

 

[Anathema]

Not quite, Chuckles. The bus drivers are employed by a private company employed by the government. They aren't civil servants directly, but they work for people who are, basically.

No. They are employed by a company that CONTRACTS with the City to provide a service. They are NOT Government employees, nor are the management enployees at Sun Tran.

You are quite incorrect that the local government shouldn't be involved in providing public transportation. It is vitally necessary in a city like Tucson, and it is very much the job of local government to empower the poor, the elderly, the handicapped, etc. to be productive members of the community and better their lives. That is what we have local governments for. Notice that I said "empower them", not "give them handouts". Tucson originally had three public bus systems, and it was a disjointed mess. That's why the city purchased them and consolidated them into one mass transit system.

I've got a place for you, if that's truly what you believe..... Europe. They think that way over there. Please go there. The Government never gas and hopefully never will have a legitimate mandate to provide transportation for the citizenry or do a damn thing fir the poor. That's Liberal BS and nithing more.

The fact that this IS about the public good is the exact reason why the city operates a government-owned and funded transit system. There's certainly privately-owned public transportation in the city, but the sheer size of the Tucson metropolitan area makes it inaccessibly financially to large segments of the community. We (the people of Tucson) want those segments to work, attend medical appointments, go to school, etc. and so we agreed to pay for it.

"The Public Good" doesnt exist. Never has and never will. I don't want anythibg from the Government and I sure as fuck don't want them taking my money in taxes to help other people.

Now we have the Teamsters and a bunch of self-absorbed, entitled assholes deciding it's all about them and pretending that we employ them for THEIR benefit, shutting down the system, and bragging about it like we're all supposed to applaud and admire.

Many of these quasi-government-controlled companies need to realize that they are NOT all that special and,that treating their employees like trash based on the idea that the Government will force the workers to continue eatibg shit pie doesn't work.

The Teamsters, on the other hand, really don't give a damn how much damage it causes to the city or to the bus system. Or even to their own drivers, apparently, because right now they are the most hated people in the city, and the level of hostility and driver harassment has increased since the strike ended. I know some drivers who remove their uniforms as soon as they get off work, because they don't want to go out in public identified as Sun Tran drivers right now.

You know, on the rare occasions that the UWUA/BUW that I belong to has walked out they have gotten the stink eye from the general public.... right up until their power goes off on a December night when it's 5 degrees outside and they gave electric heat. Then suddenly we're their best friends and they LOVE us.