Unintended Consequences

[Old Rocks]

Good post...but it just didn't go far enough. If Barry gets his 'Cap & Trade" passed...once again the poor will be hit the hardest. I don't think the poor can afford to have the democrats looking out for them.

Tell that to the millions that are out of work due to the deregulation of financial transactions. A la Phil Gramm and the Republicans.

And Bush pushed food based ethanol as hard as anybody. Many, myself included, thought it stupid from the start. Cellulostic, or algea based, but not food based.

I agree with you on this Old Rocks. That was a lame brain idea with the ethanol. See, I can rip Bush for stuff he did wrong, always have. On the other hand, why can't the liberals do the same with Obama? Obama has made mistakes, but the liberals will never call him out on it. That's just an observation.
Now, having said that...what the hell does that have to do with Cap and Trade hurting the poor? The poor are going to get hit with rising costs, and "fees" because of the current administration. The liberals will not stand up to the administration. This would be known as indoctrination, by the way.

There are many programs that Obama supports that I have doubts about. However, most of his policies are still in the making. And the ones that really matter right now, in the economic sphere, I, and many others, are taking a wait and see attitude. If we pull out of the present debacle without a major depression, President Obama will have a lot of credit coming. If we do not, then he will have to face the consequences, same as the Republicans are now facing the consequences for their actions and inactions over the last eight years.

Rather than ethonal, even cellulostic and algea based, I would rather see us going to bio-diesel with the same base. That would be an excellant use for our municipal sewage treatment plants. The University of Nevada has done some excellant work on this.

First stage of Nevada algae biodiesel completed successfully

 

[editec]

You will notice I tend to avoid political affiliations on such matters, because I don't think it has much weight in it really. The people who pushed it were idiots for the reason that they're .... idiots.

Fair enough.

I'm mostly responding to the asides many are putting into this which imply that Ethanol was a liberal/conservationist plot.

It was mostly something that multibillion dollars agricultural corporations paid whores like Bob Dole to shill for them.

I won't argue that.

The point I was making is that this is an example of how environuts swallow this crap too easily without thinking long term (environuts tend to be more liberals but are not exclussively liberals, not are all liberals environuts).

Some of them did.

OTOH, environmentalists who were paying attention started suggesting that Ethanol was NOT a solution long before it became apparent to most people...particularly those in Congress who were taking money from that agricultural conglomerates who were pressing for it.

They knew what this was from jump street...it was a pork barrel project that served those who converted corn to enthanol, and a pork barrel project for corn producers.

That was known to serious environmentalist a LONG time ago, and they sounded the alarm almost immediately, too.

How did they know, you ask?

Well for one thing the MATH NEVER WORKED!

The USA could not grow enough corn to satisfy our oil consumption, not if it put every acre of aridable land in the USA into corn production.

 

[Tech_Esq]

^^^ That's right... We've known this for ever now. They must've surely known... they just don't care.

When they first put ethanol on the table proponents mentioned that this will impact food prices (cannot remember the year but it was some years back) and were all called defeatists instead of taken seriously ... well ... now what's happening? It's amazing on how short sighted "green" and people who push for this are.

Yes it is.

I have often noted that my fellow conservation advocates don't think past immediate solutions.

However, this particualr GREEN movement (ethanol) was most heavily promoted by the agriculatural corproations and their shill was BOB DOLE.,, a SUPER REPUBLICAN.

Well Edi....I don't know why you have such a hard-on for Bob Dole (keep your groans to yourself) but I'm not sure why you look to someone who hasn't been relevant for over 14 years when you could be focused on the immediate problem people:

NELSON: ETHANOL NOT TO BLAME FOR HIGH FOOD COSTS

May 22, 2008 – Nebraska's Senator Ben Nelson joined several senators at a Capitol Hill news conference today to dispel criticism that corn based ethanol is to blame for rising food prices.

"I'm not sure when it happened or why it happened but it's incredible to me that someone decided to add ethanol to the members of the axis of evil," said Senator Nelson. "They ignore the fact that the cost of oil has far more triggered the cost of products and living in the U.S. than the grinding of corn into ethanol."

Senators Chuck Grassley of Iowa, Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, John Thune of South Dakota, and Kit Bond of Missouri participated in the press conference which was called in response to recent efforts in Washington to blame ethanol for food costs and reverse course on important policies to expand the U.S. biofuels industry.

"As an oil-based economy, we have to move to renewable fuels in order to provide for our own energy security in the future and that means we’re not going to find the solution to the problem at the bottom of the next empty oil well," said Nelson.

And,

As governor, Nelson pressed to expand the ethanol industry in Nebraska. He established the Governors’ Ethanol Coalition as part of the National Governors’ Association. Under Nelson’s leadership, Nebraska moved to the forefront of ethanol production, increasing production from 15 million gallons to more than 300 million gallons in 1997. More than 6000 Nebraskans are now employed directly or indirectly in Nebraska ethanol production. In the Senate, one of the first bills Nelson cosponsored is a bill to boost production of ethanol and other renewable fuels, sponsored by Indiana Senator Richard Lugar and South Dakota’s Tom Daschle. Nelson serves as National Co Chair of Ethanol Across America, a grassroots organization designed to increase ethanol awareness and production.

Don't you think this guy is a more relevant threat given that he's in the majority and not a one-foot in the grave, hasn't been a senator in 14 years, has been?

 

[Otter_Creek]

Yep! Bush's war for corn... that's the ticket.

 

[KittenKoder]

Pretty soon if the environuts are allowed to con people more we will be eating nothing but fish and seaweed (good once in a while, but too much ... blech!) and the "rich" people they seem to hate so much will have all the wealth ... oh well ... Mars is starting to look good right now.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Pretty soon if the environuts are allowed to con people more we will be eating nothing but fish and seaweed (good once in a while, but too much ... blech!) and the "rich" people they seem to hate so much will have all the wealth ... oh well ... Mars is starting to look good right now.

Fish?! Hmmmm.... Don't count on it, kitty

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/science/03fish.html

http://seaaroundus.org/newspapers/2002/WashingtonPost_16Feb02.pdf

<i>Science</i> study predicts collapse of all seafood fisheries by 2050

All species of wild seafood will collapse within 50 years, according to a new study by an international team of ecologists and economists. Writing in the Nov. 3 issue of the journal Science, the researchers conclude that the loss of marine biodiversity worldwide is profoundly reducing the ocean's ability to produce seafood, resist diseases, filter pollutants and rebound from stresses, such as climate change and overfishing.

"Unless we fundamentally change the way we manage all the ocean species together as working ecosystems, then this century is the last century of wild seafood," said study co-author Stephen Palumbi, professor of biological sciences at Stanford's Hopkins Marine Station.

Palumbi and Stanford colleague Fiorenza Micheli, assistant professor of biological sciences at Hopkins, are two of 14 co-authors of the Science study, the first major analysis of all existing datasets—historical, experimental, fisheries and observational—on ocean species and ecosystems.

*gulp*

 

[KittenKoder]

Damn! Protein paste really doesn't taste good people ... let's stop these nuts ASAP ... somehow.

 

[Sinatra]

And yet again we find that government stupidity screws things up
Report: Ethanol raises cost of nutrition programs
Snip,

Food stamps and child nutrition programs are expected to cost up to $900 million more this year because of increased ethanol use.

Higher use of the corn-based fuel additive accounted for about 10 percent to 15 percent of the rise in food prices between April 2007 and April 2008

Just in case you didn't know it, government regulations force fuel suppliers to put ethanol in gasoline.
As is typical of government mandates, the result is another unintended consequence, this time the result is an increase in food costs. And just exactly who is hit hardest by increased food costs?
If you said the poor, step to the front of the class and collect your gold star for the day.
All these law makers in Washington are constantly telling us how they are trying to take care of the poor and the children, yet they exacerbate the problems the poor have by forcing things like ethanol usage in gasoline. Then they turn around and insist they need more tax money to help the poor people that they just fucked over with their stupid mandate.
Never underestimate the collective power of congressional stupidity.

Good post...but it just didn't go far enough. If Barry gets his 'Cap & Trade" passed...once again the poor will be hit the hardest. I don't think the poor can afford to have the democrats looking out for them.

100% correct on that - but then of course there will be newly implimented energy credits for the poor paid for by those who actually pay taxes. Thus ensuring yet another entitlement program as a means of securing future votes...

 

[code1211]

^^^ That's right... We've known this for ever now. They must've surely known... they just don't care.

When they first put ethanol on the table proponents mentioned that this will impact food prices (cannot remember the year but it was some years back) and were all called defeatists instead of taken seriously ... well ... now what's happening? It's amazing on how short sighted "green" and people who push for this are.

Yes it is.

I have often noted that my fellow conservation advocates don't think past immediate solutions.

However, this particualr GREEN movement (ethanol) was most heavily promoted by the agriculatural corproations and their shill was BOB DOLE.,, a SUPER REPUBLICAN.

Less important than his party affilliation is his state of residence, Kansas. Corn grows from border to border. if the price of that corn rises, his constituants become richer. If it drops, there's trouble in Topeka.

Following the money usually leads to a view of motive. That, and "All politics is local" will explain most of our problems.

As long as we send a huge sum of cash to DC to be spent by a small group of power hungry thieves and their cronies, this will continue to get worse.

 

[DiveCon]

Good post...but it just didn't go far enough. If Barry gets his 'Cap & Trade" passed...once again the poor will be hit the hardest. I don't think the poor can afford to have the democrats looking out for them.

Tell that to the millions that are out of work due to the deregulation of financial transactions. A la Phil Gramm and the Republicans.

And Bush pushed food based ethanol as hard as anybody. Many, myself included, thought it stupid from the start. Cellulostic, or algea based, but not food based.

I agree with you on this Old Rocks. That was a lame brain idea with the ethanol. See, I can rip Bush for stuff he did wrong, always have. On the other hand, why can't the liberals do the same with Obama? Obama has made mistakes, but the liberals will never call him out on it. That's just an observation.
Now, having said that...what the hell does that have to do with Cap and Trade hurting the poor? The poor are going to get hit with rising costs, and "fees" because of the current administration. The liberals will not stand up to the administration. This would be known as indoctrination, by the way.

the poor will ALWAYS be the hardest hit

 

[DiveCon]

When they first put ethanol on the table proponents mentioned that this will impact food prices (cannot remember the year but it was some years back) and were all called defeatists instead of taken seriously ... well ... now what's happening? It's amazing on how short sighted "green" and people who push for this are.

Yes it is.

I have often noted that my fellow conservation advocates don't think past immediate solutions.

However, this particualr GREEN movement (ethanol) was most heavily promoted by the agriculatural corproations and their shill was BOB DOLE.,, a SUPER REPUBLICAN.

Less important than his party affilliation is his state of residence, Kansas. Corn grows from border to border. if the price of that corn rises, his constituants become richer. If it drops, there's trouble in Topeka.

Following the money usually leads to a view of motive. That, and "All politics is local" will explain most of our problems.

As long as we send a huge sum of cash to DC to be spent by a small group of power hungry thieves and their cronies, this will continue to get worse.

thats exactly it
Bob Dole was pushing what was good for Bob Dole
the same as Ben Nelson
they know what side of their bread is buttered