Undeniable facts of Muslim inferiority

[Kalam]

I'm sure you're familiar with John O'neil's interpretations:

Nope. After reading some of what he wrote on my own, though, I've concluded that his analysis can be dismissed as the ramblings of an irrational Islamophobe. The suggestion that the Medieval period in Europe had its origins in Islam is an argument of such historical ignorance that I can only wonder how the author calls himself a "historian" with a straight face. If Muslims are to blame for European barbarism, one can only wonder why we tended to be morally superior to them.

 

[Kalam]

all that we can see is that the Islamic empire had the opportunity to become the center of the world (it had conquered all the then-relevant world, with the inmense wealth of Persia and Anatolian Byzantium), but was out-done at every turn by the more free-thinking European Christians

Incorrect. Europe only began gaining an edge over the Islamic world after the political fracture of the Abbasid Caliphate and the fall of Baghdad, its capital and most significant center of learning, to the Mongols. European Christians were among the least free-thinking people in history; any departure from the official interpretation of Biblical rubbish resulted in being burned at the stake for heresy. European Christian free-thought:

Medieval Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the most innovative and influencial work in the Islamic world (by an Arab, it is true) on optics was not taught outside of Europe... it was invented by an Arab, but was not permitted in the Muslim world.

Source?

And can we forget about comparing the Islamic golden age with the European dark ages? First and foremost, most of Europe was not genuinely Christianized

According to whose standard?

until after the peak of the Carolingian dynasty, which ends at around the end of the 10th century. So it was not Christianity holding Northern Europe down. Indeed, Christianity (which only became official in Europe a couple hundred years before Islam, not nearly a thousand) was not even a factor in the dark ages. How about comparing the Islamic golden age to the Greco-Roman world? to the pre-Islamic Persian, Indian, Mediterranean world? to China? When you make these comparisons, the greatest achievements of Islam are easily overshadowed.

Greeks, Chinese, etc. did not produce degree-granting universities, the scientific method of experimentation, the foundations of modern chemistry and algebra, works on optics that revolutionized the study of physics, the discovery of the contagious nature of diseases, or many of the other innovations attributable to Muslims. Modern science is, to some extent, rooted in the empiricism encouraged by the Qur'an and the methods of research used to confirm isnad and validate ahadith.

 

[ekrem]

I admire any person who take his nation and put it on course towards much larger goals, matching the history of that nation. Therefore e.g. Vladimir Putin is one of the greatest leaders of our times. No matter of how his practizes are matching the practizes of a Dictator and how he is portrayed in Western world, by simply being incompatble to "Western values". He puts Russia back into its natural relevance. As such he is to be admired, and the Russians off course admire him and he has a cult-status extra-terrestrial of the Russian boarders.

In Turkish exists a phrase: "devlet genelegi".
This just simply means "continuity of state history". There are only several nations that in history by falling and re-rising had an enduring impact to the world. The Mongols were one of them for example, but will never re-rise again. The Arabs will also not. Their time is gone.

Turkey will not advance by limiting itself to being just another member of a country in Transatlantic community just like the last 50 years. The last 50 years was a game of milking the Turkish Cow and keep it in check not to rise to former glory. There were only promises "one day EU" blabla-shit to ensure Turkey plays by "Transatlantic" rules.

This game pictured in the above picture does neither serve Turkish interests, nor regional and world peace of inter-faith interaction. What the world today is, we can see in Western sponsored creation of synonyms for chaos and reactionary antonyms for it. (Put Israel and Iran yourself in the order as synonym and antonym).

Now we play by other Rules.

That this does not taste good for some strategy planners, maximizing their interests by milking the Turkish Cow is off course understandable.

"Turkey does not takes order from anybody."
Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey was a strong independent country that didn't take orders from the outside world.

Erdogan: Turkey takes order from nobody----ÄÂÃñÏÈòŒ

Our ascend is not sponsored by anyone, it is based on the output of manufacturing industry and consumption of it through own population and export of it.
The debt of Turkish households is unmatched.
The Central Bank of Turkey says that the Private Households in Turkey are only in debt to 9% relative of the GDP of Turkey.
The Private debt of European households is 63% of the relative GDP of Europe:
Also only 1,58 % of total credits within Turkey are classified as "bad-credits", non-recoverable for banks.
http://www.tcmb.gov.tr/yeni/duyuru/2008/Baskan_BakanlarKurulu_Mayis2008.pdf

Turks will continue to consume Turkish manufacturing by their monthly salaries and by taking credits. Turkish economy is growing through inner-market dynamics and export.
We stand on our own foot.
And the economic future of Turkey is very bright. Turkey will produce and consume itself.

Turkish foreign trade:
2004: 127 Billion €
2008: 224 Billion €
europa.eu Turkey - Trade Statistics

State Minister for Foreign trade says, that Foreign trade will break 400 Billion $ barrier by 2013:
CNNTurk.com

Report: Islamic Calvinists. Change and Conservatism in Central Anatolia
"Muslim Calvinists" in Anatolia Show How Piety Can Blend with Modernity
The rise of the Anatolian Tigers - The German Times Online -

Anatolian Tigers (Turkish: Anadolu Kaplanlar&#305 is a term internationally used in the context of the Turkish economy to refer to and to explain the phenomenon of a number of cities in Turkey which have displayed impressive growth records since the 1980s, as well as to a defined new breed of entrepreneurs rising in prominence and who can often be traced back to the cities in question and who generally rose from the status of SMEs.[1]
Anatolian Tigers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Coupled with the population growth and military industry growth we will make Anti-Turks shiver, as the tax-free foundations of the Turkish Army are 3rd biggest conglomerate within Turkish Economy and they will also grow. Turkish Army is for example Steel monopolist in Turkey through Erdemir Steel Plants. This commercial activities of Army are all reserves in case of war.

State research budget of Turkey:
2002: 0,67%
2005: 0,79%
2008: 0,93%
http://www.tubitak.gov.tr/tubitak_co...kler/BTY01.pdf
2013 goal: 2%

Research Personal of Turkish state:
2002: 28.000
2005: 40.000
2008: 63.000
http://www.tubitak.gov.tr/tubitak_co...kler/BTY35.pdf
2013 goal: 150.000


Israel better listen to Turkish FM
“If a similar event [to the 2008 Gaza War] takes place in Gaza tomorrow, we will react, wherever it may be, Israel or another country. We will not let civilians die in the region. We will do everything we are capable of doing.”
'Turkey cannot remain silent when something goes wrong in the region' - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

We do not need to engage in TV propaganda firing Missiles and Rokets through air to demonstrate our capabilities.

 

[The_Halfmoon]

Incorrect. Europe only began gaining an edge over the Islamic world after the political fracture of the Abbasid Caliphate and the fall of Baghdad, its capital and most significant center of learning, to the Mongols. European Christians were among the least free-thinking people in history; any departure from the official interpretation of Biblical rubbish resulted in being burned at the stake for heresy. European Christian free-thought:

That's absolutely true of the Christian world during the early period of Islam, because in that sense Christianity was very much a restrictive religion. But Christianity was reformed, and oncde that reformation took place a genuine golden age occured in Europe. The rapid spread of ideas in the reformed christian world (granted, it took place only after Islam's prime) put anything done in the Islamic world to shame. I absolutely agree that 9th century Europe north of Spain was worse off than the muslim world... but it shouldn't even have been close. The centers of power in Eurasia during the 7th century were undoubtedly Byzantium/Rome and Persia. The bulk of these, including their already built universities and apothecaries, went to the Muslim world. Western Europe inheritted the decay of Western Rome, which although a very powerful state, was always intellectually inferior to the Eastern Byzantine provinces. Islam was given the entire world, and ended up with a C+ grade at best for that golden age.

Source?

"Alhazen personally should be credited with being one of the greatest scientists of his age in any discipline, Eastern or Western, yet his inquisitive attitude and scientific mindset wasn't always appreciated by his contemporaries. Here is how his writings were received by fellow Muslims, as quoted in Ibn Warraq's book Why I Am Not a Muslim: "A disciple of Maimonides, the Jewish philosopher, relates that he was in Baghdad on business, when the library of a certain philosopher (who died in 1214) was burned there. The preacher, who conducted the execution of the sentence, threw into the flames, with his own hands, an astronomical work of Ibn al-Haitham [Alhazen], after he had pointed to a delineation therein given of the sphere of the earth, as an unhappy symbol of impious Atheism.""


According to whose standard?

Christianization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Between the sixth and the tenth century, the mission of the Catholic Church and the Hiberno-Scottish mission Christianized England, working largely independently."

"The Germanic peoples underwent gradual Christianization in the course of the Early Middle Ages, resulting in a unique form of Christianity known as Germanic Christianity in some cases. The Eastern and Western tribes were the first to convert through various means. However, it wouldn't be until the 12th century until the North Germanic Tribes had Christianized."

"Mieszko saw baptism as a way of strengthening his hold on power, with the active support he could expect from the bishops, as well as a unifying force for the Polish people. Mieszko's action proved highly successful; by the 13th century, Roman Catholicism had become the dominant religion in Poland."

"In the Middle Ages, the Kingdom of Hungary (which was larger than modern day Hungary) was Christianized between 970 and 1038."

and so on and so on... Christianization in Europe was a very gradual process. It wasn't until the 10th century that the bulk of the European people even started the process of conversion.

Greeks, Chinese, etc. did not produce degree-granting universities, the scientific method of experimentation, the foundations of modern chemistry and algebra, works on optics that revolutionized the study of physics, the discovery of the contagious nature of diseases, or many of the other innovations attributable to Muslims. Modern science is, to some extent, rooted in the empiricism encouraged by the Qur'an and the methods of research used to confirm isnad and validate ahadith.


a) Islamic universities were second rate. It's true that they were the first to grant degrees.. but Asian, Indian, and Persian universities existed long before. The university of Nanjing was established ca 250 AD. Again, look at what Islam inheritted... what it did with this inheritance was the VERY LEAST possible. Compare Oxford's legacy to those of ANY Islamic university... Oxford was founded in the late 11th century by a bunch of half-civilized Europeans while the Muslim world sat at the center of world trade.

b) foundations of algebra? no. Even though Kharazmi is one of my idols, and an Iranian folk hero, his theories were minor adjustments to those of Diophantus of Alexandria. This is a relatively new fact that's come to light, and I don't like it. But it's true.

c) every other thing Muslims discovered, with the exception of optics, could have and would have been easily discovered by Europe during their golden age, which puts to shame the Islamic golden age. One decade of the European renaissance could humble the entire history of the Muslim world.

Greeks, Chinese, Indians, and pre-Islamic Persians contributed FAR more to Europe than Islam ever did. Disputing this is ridiculous. Heck, classical Athens alone overshadows the entire Muslim civilization.

 

[The_Halfmoon]

and let's add a couple of things here and there:

Razi, who is referred to as "probably the greatest and most original of all the Muslim physicians, and one of the most prolific as an author" (Browne, 2001), had this to say about Islam:

"These billy goats (Prophets) pretend to come with a message from God, all the while exhausting themselves in spouting their lies, and imposing on the masses blind obedience to the "words of the master."

That's what was allowed through in his books... most of the rest were burned anyway.

Avicenna is one of the most influential people, let alone Muslims, in history. He was also considered a heretic, perhaps for saying things like:

"The after life is a notion received from religious teaching; there is no way of establishing it's truth save by way of religious dogma and acceptance of the prophet's report as true; there refers to what will befall the body at the resurrection and those corporal delights or torments which are too well-known to require restating here."

Averroes is, in my mind, the second greatest Arab scholar of all time next to Alhazen. Both had their work burned by Muslims. Averroes was cast as as heretic/Kafir (both by Muslims and Christians to be fair). Most of what we know of Averroes comes from jews and christians that kept his books... not the Muslims that BURNT them.

the list goes on... THE ISLAMIC GOLDEN AGE IS A MYTH

and finally, most importantly:

Even if all that Muslims hype up about the golden age were true (it's not... archaeology and modern scholarship consistently fails to prove its existence), so what? Do Christians say Newton, Darwin, etc. were influenced by Christianity? of course not, that's nonsense. Do the last two centuries represent an "Ashkenazi golden age?" No. Einstein, Freud, Marx (any one of whom contributed tremendously more to modern science/sociology than any Muslim scholar) were great thinkers not because they were Jewish, but IN SPITE of their religion.

 

[The_Halfmoon]

and now for something a bit more tangible... even if this golden age existed, what is wrong with Islam today? here's John Eidsmoe:

"Consider Muslim contributions to civilization in recent years. Of the top 50 scientific breakthroughs of 2007 listed in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, not one comes from any of the world’s 56 Muslim nations. These Muslim nations have contributed less than 2% of the world’s scientific literature. Of the three million foreign inventions patented in the United States between 1977 and 2004, only 1,500 came from Muslim nations. Saudi Arabia established a patent office in 1990, but did not grant its first patent until 1996. In 2001 Iran registered only 1 patent, Indonesia a total of 30 over the past 5 years; the United States averages over 100,000 per year. South Korea issues more patents in any single year than the entire Muslim world in the last 30 years. Jews worldwide have received 169 Nobel Prizes; the world’s 1.4 billion Muslims have received a total of 7, one of which went to Yasser Arafat."

 

[Sunni Man]

Big deal

Patents are a western invention

and the Nobel is a basically a european jew club

 

[The_Halfmoon]

Big deal

Patents are a western invention

and the Nobel is a basically a european jew club

I can actually sort of dismiss what I said about the Nobel because, you are right, they are a club. I don't think it's a Jew club, but I know about the vast influence Jewish money and power has on European culture. Doesn't mean I agree with it, but I can see why you'd say that.

But there's really absolutely no way anyone can take the "patents are a western invention" comment as a serious argument. Patents protect the inventor's investment... whether they're western or not, no serious inventor would skip patenting their invention because it's a western thing to do.

 

[The_Halfmoon]

But there's really absolutely no way anyone can take the "patents are a western invention" comment as a serious argument. Patents protect the inventor's investment... whether they're western or not, no serious inventor would skip patenting their invention because it's a western thing to do.

China, India, South America, and much of Asia, in essence about half of the worlds population, could care less about patents

 

[The_Halfmoon]

when will muslims stop blaming everyone other than muslims? They were given everything in history

they were given the entire ancient world to do with as they pleased, and they turned it into a bunch of footnotes in history books

they were given the vast wealth of oil, and they are continuously squandering it

what would have happened to Muslims if they hadn't raped more ancient and advanced civilizations? If they hadn't been granted wealth through sheer luck?

My idea is that Saudi Arabia would make Afghanistan look like Luxembourg

 

[ekrem]

A very good article from "The Economist" explaining the economical and political invasion of Turkey in the Middle Easter countries.



Looking east and south
IT IS a thousand years since the Turks arrived in the Middle East, migrating from Central Asia to Anatolia. For half of that millennium they ruled much of the region. But when the Ottoman Empire fizzled out and the Turkish Republic was born in 1923, they all but sealed themselves off from their former dominions, turning instead to Europe and tightly embracing America in its cold war with the Soviet Union.

The Turks are now back in the Middle East, in the benign guise of traders and diplomats. The move is natural, considering proximity, the strength of the Turkish economy, the revival of Islamic feeling in Turkey after decades of enforced secularism, and frustration with the sluggishness of talks to join the European Union. Indeed, Turkey’s Middle East offensive has taken on something of the scale and momentum of an invasion, albeit a peaceful one.

In the past seven years the value of Turkey’s exports to the Middle East and north Africa has swollen nearly sevenfold to $31 billion in 2008. From cars to tableware, dried figs to television serials, Turkish products, unknown a decade ago, are now ubiquitous in markets from Algiers to Tehran. Already a vital conduit for sending energy from east to west, Turkey is set to grow in importance as more pipelines come on stream. The most notable is Nabucco, a proposed €7.9 billion ($11.7 billion) scheme to carry gas across Turkey from Azerbaijan and possibly Turkmenistan, Iran, Iraq and Egypt. A single Turkish construction firm, TAV, has just finished an airport terminal for Egypt’s capital, Cairo, and is building others in Libya, Qatar, Tunisia and the United Arab Emirates. Turks have scooped up hundreds of infrastructure contracts in Iraqi Kurdistan, and invested in shopping malls, hotels and even schools.

These achievements are partly due to an energetic pursuit of trading privileges, such as Turkey’s free-trade pacts with Egypt, Israel, Morocco and Tunisia. It is seeking a similar deal with the six-member Gulf Co-operation Council, which includes Saudi Arabia. Earlier this month, teams of Turkish ministers travelled to Baghdad and Damascus to sign a package of 48 co-operation deals with Iraq and 40 with Syria. Covering everything from tourism to counter-terrorism and joint military exercises, the deals could end decades of tension between Turkey and its former Ottoman provinces.

Turkey’s prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has just been warmly received in the Iranian capital, Tehran, a reflection of the realpolitik that has kept links open despite the Islamic Republic’s international isolation. Turkey requires no visas for Iranians, and Mr Erdogan, who has stressed Iran’s right to nuclear power for civil purposes, pointedly congratulated Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, after his disputed election win in June. Turkey only recently made an historic breakthrough in relations with another eastern neighbour, Armenia. If the parliaments of both countries endorse the move, diplomatic ties may be restored after a 16-year freeze.

This dogged diplomatic pragmatism has been ardently pursued by the foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, an ebullient professor of international relations who had long advised Mr Erdogan before his appointment in May. Mr Davutoglu, who in a book described the Middle East as “Turkey’s strategic depth”, has called for a policy of “zero problems with neighbours”. Reflecting the mild, modernist Islamism of the Justice and Development party, known by its Turkish initials AK, which has ruled Turkey since 2002, the new policy seeks to use the soft power of trade, along with historical links, to project stability beyond Turkey’s frontiers. This marks a distinct shift in worldview. In the past Turkey tended to see itself as an eastern bulwark of the NATO alliance, whereas its Middle Eastern neighbours were viewed as threats to be contained.

Whatever Mr Davutoglu’s persuasive powers, this reorientation could not have happened without dramatic changes in Turkey. Reforms undertaken partly to meet demands for EU membership have shifted power from threat-obsessed generals to civilian institutions, and to a new, more self-consciously Muslim elite rooted in Anatolia rather than Istanbul, Turkey’s Western-looking commercial and intellectual capital. The AK party has also reversed decades of official policy by trying to meet the demands of Turkey’s large Kurdish minority (some 14m in a total population of 72m). The granting of more cultural and political rights, and the admission of past discrimination, have soothed tempers not only among Turkish Kurds, but among their ethnic kin in Iraq, Iran and Syria.

Yet a reason for the success of Turkey’s kinder, gentler approach is that it takes place in the context of a regional power vacuum. Such relative Arab heavyweights as Egypt and Iraq no longer wield much clout. American influence has also dipped in the wake of its troubles in Iraq. Indeed, Turkey’s biggest breakthrough in Arab public opinion came in 2003, when its parliament rejected an American request to open Turkish territory as a second front for the invasion of Iraq. Turkey did allow the use of an airbase to supply the war, but escaped the opprobrium heaped on America’s Arab allies who grudgingly lent support to the toppling of Saddam Hussein.

Turkey has also been welcomed back because many Arabs see it as both a moderate counterweight to Iran and as a window to the West. Iraqi Shias, for instance, are still wary of Iranian meddling in Iraq, even though Iraq’s main Shia parties have close relations with Iran. Iraq’s Kurds, despite age-old tensions with Turkey, have also warmed their relations as trade has boomed and the looming departure of the Kurds’ American protectors raises the spectre of isolation. The secular government of Syria, an ostensible ally of Iran, in fact shares little cultural affinity with its stridently Islamist rulers, compared with the AK party’s businesslike, tie-wearing officials. Improved relations with Turkey, which now include visa-free travel, bring much-needed relief to Syria, isolated diplomatically and economically backward. In fact, so eager has Syria been to woo Turkey that in 2005 it scrapped a longstanding territorial claim to Hatay, a province granted to Turkey in 1939 by France, Syria’s colonial master at the time.

Turkish officials, however, have been careful to explain that their renewed interest in the Muslim east does not mean a chill towards the West. Instead, they present Turkey as a useful bridge, a regional force for peace, and the model of a democracy that is compatible with Islam. Its Western allies have generally shared that view and have not opposed Turkey’s eastward shift. Yet such benign indifference could change, if Turkey’s prospects for joining the EU die, or if Turkey is seen as undermining attempts to pressure Iran.

Already, Turkey’s gentle realignment has carried some costs, most obviously to its relations with Israel. These flourished into a full-blown strategic partnership in the 1990s, before the AK party’s rise, when peace between Palestinians and Israelis seemed possible. Joint military exercises and Israeli arms sales brought the two countries’ military establishments close, while trade and tourism expanded fast. Israel even offered to shield Turkey from lobbies in the American Congress that sought to punish Turkey for disputing the genocide of Armenians in Ottoman territory during the first world war.
The end of an affair?

But ties have frayed as Turkish public opinion, which now counts for more, has turned increasingly hostile to Israel. Mr Erdogan, a tough, streetwise politician, felt slighted last year when Israel attacked Gaza only days after he had met Israel’s then prime minister, Ehud Olmert, who assured him that Turkish-brokered peace talks between Israel and Syria would resume. The bloodshed in Gaza outraged many Turks, who heartily praised Mr Erdogan when he stormed out of a debate with Israel’s president, Shimon Peres, at Davos in Switzerland earlier this year.

The Turks were again angered in September when Israel denied Mr Davutoglu permission to cross into Gaza during a visit to Israel. Earlier this month Turkey, citing Israel’s failure to deliver an order of military drone aircraft, abruptly cancelled joint air exercises. Israel, for its part, lodged a formal protest at the airing, on Turkish state television, of a serial depicting Israeli soldiers as brutal killers. Some Israeli officials say they detect signs of anti-Semitism that disqualify Turkey from mediating any longer between Syria and Israel.

Turkish officials respond that they have no intention of breaking off relations with Israel, and think they can still be a useful interlocutor with the Jewish state. But they remain indignant. “We might have lost leverage with Israel,” says an AK party man. “But I’d rather be on the side of history, of what is right, of justice.” One of Mr Erdogan’s advisers puts Turkey’s case more boldly, in a sign of its growing confidence as a regional leader. “We are conditioning relations with Israel on the progress of the conflict,” he says. “This is what the West should do.”


Turkey and the Middle East: Looking east and south | The Economist

 

[ekrem]

A very good article from "The Economist" explaining the economical and political invasion of Turkey in the Middle Easter countries.



Looking east and south
IT IS a thousand years since the Turks arrived in the Middle East, migrating from Central Asia to Anatolia. For half of that millennium they ruled much of the region. But when the Ottoman Empire fizzled out and the Turkish Republic was born in 1923, they all but sealed themselves off from their former dominions, turning instead to Europe and tightly embracing America in its cold war with the Soviet Union.

The Turks are now back in the Middle East, in the benign guise of traders and diplomats. The move is natural, considering proximity, the strength of the Turkish economy, the revival of Islamic feeling in Turkey after decades of enforced secularism, and frustration with the sluggishness of talks to join the European Union. Indeed, Turkey’s Middle East offensive has taken on something of the scale and momentum of an invasion, albeit a peaceful one.

In the past seven years the value of Turkey’s exports to the Middle East and north Africa has swollen nearly sevenfold to $31 billion in 2008. From cars to tableware, dried figs to television serials, Turkish products, unknown a decade ago, are now ubiquitous in markets from Algiers to Tehran. Already a vital conduit for sending energy from east to west, Turkey is set to grow in importance as more pipelines come on stream. The most notable is Nabucco, a proposed €7.9 billion ($11.7 billion) scheme to carry gas across Turkey from Azerbaijan and possibly Turkmenistan, Iran, Iraq and Egypt. A single Turkish construction firm, TAV, has just finished an airport terminal for Egypt’s capital, Cairo, and is building others in Libya, Qatar, Tunisia and the United Arab Emirates. Turks have scooped up hundreds of infrastructure contracts in Iraqi Kurdistan, and invested in shopping malls, hotels and even schools.

These achievements are partly due to an energetic pursuit of trading privileges, such as Turkey’s free-trade pacts with Egypt, Israel, Morocco and Tunisia. It is seeking a similar deal with the six-member Gulf Co-operation Council, which includes Saudi Arabia. Earlier this month, teams of Turkish ministers travelled to Baghdad and Damascus to sign a package of 48 co-operation deals with Iraq and 40 with Syria. Covering everything from tourism to counter-terrorism and joint military exercises, the deals could end decades of tension between Turkey and its former Ottoman provinces.

Turkey’s prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has just been warmly received in the Iranian capital, Tehran, a reflection of the realpolitik that has kept links open despite the Islamic Republic’s international isolation. Turkey requires no visas for Iranians, and Mr Erdogan, who has stressed Iran’s right to nuclear power for civil purposes, pointedly congratulated Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, after his disputed election win in June. Turkey only recently made an historic breakthrough in relations with another eastern neighbour, Armenia. If the parliaments of both countries endorse the move, diplomatic ties may be restored after a 16-year freeze.

This dogged diplomatic pragmatism has been ardently pursued by the foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, an ebullient professor of international relations who had long advised Mr Erdogan before his appointment in May. Mr Davutoglu, who in a book described the Middle East as “Turkey’s strategic depth”, has called for a policy of “zero problems with neighbours”. Reflecting the mild, modernist Islamism of the Justice and Development party, known by its Turkish initials AK, which has ruled Turkey since 2002, the new policy seeks to use the soft power of trade, along with historical links, to project stability beyond Turkey’s frontiers. This marks a distinct shift in worldview. In the past Turkey tended to see itself as an eastern bulwark of the NATO alliance, whereas its Middle Eastern neighbours were viewed as threats to be contained.

Whatever Mr Davutoglu’s persuasive powers, this reorientation could not have happened without dramatic changes in Turkey. Reforms undertaken partly to meet demands for EU membership have shifted power from threat-obsessed generals to civilian institutions, and to a new, more self-consciously Muslim elite rooted in Anatolia rather than Istanbul, Turkey’s Western-looking commercial and intellectual capital. The AK party has also reversed decades of official policy by trying to meet the demands of Turkey’s large Kurdish minority (some 14m in a total population of 72m). The granting of more cultural and political rights, and the admission of past discrimination, have soothed tempers not only among Turkish Kurds, but among their ethnic kin in Iraq, Iran and Syria.

Yet a reason for the success of Turkey’s kinder, gentler approach is that it takes place in the context of a regional power vacuum. Such relative Arab heavyweights as Egypt and Iraq no longer wield much clout. American influence has also dipped in the wake of its troubles in Iraq. Indeed, Turkey’s biggest breakthrough in Arab public opinion came in 2003, when its parliament rejected an American request to open Turkish territory as a second front for the invasion of Iraq. Turkey did allow the use of an airbase to supply the war, but escaped the opprobrium heaped on America’s Arab allies who grudgingly lent support to the toppling of Saddam Hussein.

Turkey has also been welcomed back because many Arabs see it as both a moderate counterweight to Iran and as a window to the West. Iraqi Shias, for instance, are still wary of Iranian meddling in Iraq, even though Iraq’s main Shia parties have close relations with Iran. Iraq’s Kurds, despite age-old tensions with Turkey, have also warmed their relations as trade has boomed and the looming departure of the Kurds’ American protectors raises the spectre of isolation. The secular government of Syria, an ostensible ally of Iran, in fact shares little cultural affinity with its stridently Islamist rulers, compared with the AK party’s businesslike, tie-wearing officials. Improved relations with Turkey, which now include visa-free travel, bring much-needed relief to Syria, isolated diplomatically and economically backward. In fact, so eager has Syria been to woo Turkey that in 2005 it scrapped a longstanding territorial claim to Hatay, a province granted to Turkey in 1939 by France, Syria’s colonial master at the time.

Turkish officials, however, have been careful to explain that their renewed interest in the Muslim east does not mean a chill towards the West. Instead, they present Turkey as a useful bridge, a regional force for peace, and the model of a democracy that is compatible with Islam. Its Western allies have generally shared that view and have not opposed Turkey’s eastward shift. Yet such benign indifference could change, if Turkey’s prospects for joining the EU die, or if Turkey is seen as undermining attempts to pressure Iran.

Already, Turkey’s gentle realignment has carried some costs, most obviously to its relations with Israel. These flourished into a full-blown strategic partnership in the 1990s, before the AK party’s rise, when peace between Palestinians and Israelis seemed possible. Joint military exercises and Israeli arms sales brought the two countries’ military establishments close, while trade and tourism expanded fast. Israel even offered to shield Turkey from lobbies in the American Congress that sought to punish Turkey for disputing the genocide of Armenians in Ottoman territory during the first world war.
The end of an affair?

But ties have frayed as Turkish public opinion, which now counts for more, has turned increasingly hostile to Israel. Mr Erdogan, a tough, streetwise politician, felt slighted last year when Israel attacked Gaza only days after he had met Israel’s then prime minister, Ehud Olmert, who assured him that Turkish-brokered peace talks between Israel and Syria would resume. The bloodshed in Gaza outraged many Turks, who heartily praised Mr Erdogan when he stormed out of a debate with Israel’s president, Shimon Peres, at Davos in Switzerland earlier this year.

The Turks were again angered in September when Israel denied Mr Davutoglu permission to cross into Gaza during a visit to Israel. Earlier this month Turkey, citing Israel’s failure to deliver an order of military drone aircraft, abruptly cancelled joint air exercises. Israel, for its part, lodged a formal protest at the airing, on Turkish state television, of a serial depicting Israeli soldiers as brutal killers. Some Israeli officials say they detect signs of anti-Semitism that disqualify Turkey from mediating any longer between Syria and Israel.

Turkish officials respond that they have no intention of breaking off relations with Israel, and think they can still be a useful interlocutor with the Jewish state. But they remain indignant. “We might have lost leverage with Israel,” says an AK party man. “But I’d rather be on the side of history, of what is right, of justice.” One of Mr Erdogan’s advisers puts Turkey’s case more boldly, in a sign of its growing confidence as a regional leader. “We are conditioning relations with Israel on the progress of the conflict,” he says. “This is what the West should do.”


Turkey and the Middle East: Looking east and south | The Economist

Tukrey dumps US Dollar + € Euro in trade with China, Russia and Iran:
Turkey to use national currencies in trade with Iran, China | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

From now on in Turkish currency.

 

[ekrem]

Tukrey dumps US Dollar + € Euro in trade with China, Russia and Iran:
Turkey to use national currencies in trade with Iran, China | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

From now on in Turkish currency.

As you know the USA is internationally sanctioning Iran, part of these sanctions are in the banking sector. For Iran there is not much room for international transactions in money and currency.


Turkey and Iran have agreed to set up banks mutually in one another
WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS [ Turkey, Iran to open mutual banks for local currency trade ]

Now the Iranians can make part of their International transactions through Turkey.
That will neutralize in parts the sanctions of the US upon Iran.

 

[ekrem]

One other sanctions of the USA is energy sanctions on Iran.


On Octer 27th we have signed agreement with Iran for Turkish State Petroleums to invest 4 Billion $ in South Pars natural-gas field in Iran.
Iran moves closer to export of natural gas to Europe via Turkey | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire
WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS [ Turkey, Iran ink energy deals on South Pars gas fields ]
Turkey eyes Iran's South Pars gas field - UPI.com

We will start with Gas Exploration in Iran in November
The Peninsula On-line: Qatar's leading English Daily

South Pars gas field is estimated to hold about 14 trillion cubic meters of gas, or about eight percent of total world reserves.

Turkey invests $4b in South Pars gas field

Our economy needs ressources. As Iran is the 2nd largest natural gas ressource in the world, and in geographical proximity, we will off course invest in South Pars holding 8% of world total reserves.

 

[ekrem]

Also the Turkish Prime Minister has postponed Obama's invitation to Washington to 7th December.
The visit was scheduled for today, 29th October.
But today is 86th Anniversary of Turkish Republic.

Erdogan suspends visit to US by December 7 - Politics - Panorama | Armenian news
SNS.sy | ترجمة | Erdogan delays his visit to Washington
AFP: Turkish PM to meet Obama at White House in December

 

[ekrem]

Islamic intensity is growing in Turkey, along with an alarming increase in anti-Semitism.

Turkey's worrisome approach to Iran, Israel | csmonitor.com

Turkey: An ally no more

Column: Turkey: An ally no more | Columnists | Jerusalem Post

Shut the fuck-up. Same old-story about the Islamists. That you can play with Qatar, we will coil-up your Lobby-papers and push it right inside your ass.

Ankara must demonstrate that it can rise to the occasion and stretch its hand to the Israelis in friendship and show publicly that it values and reciprocates its partnership with the Jewish state.

Op-Ed Contributors | Jerusalem Post

First, Ankara must nothing. Second, Israel must stop phosphorizing Palestinans, raise down Guantanoma Gaza mentality and sit on table
Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kalam]

That's absolutely true of the Christian world during the early period of Islam, because in that sense Christianity was very much a restrictive religion. But Christianity was reformed, and oncde that reformation took place a genuine golden age occured in Europe. The rapid spread of ideas in the reformed christian world (granted, it took place only after Islam's prime) put anything done in the Islamic world to shame.

Without Gutenberg's printing press, which was based almost entirely on Chinese and Korean movable type technology that was developed centuries earlier, the European Renaissance wouldn't have been a renaissance at all. In many cases, accomplishments of the Christian world during and even after its Scientific Revolution came after similar accomplishments in the Islamic world. Heliocentrism had been discussed by Qutb ad-Din, Al-Biruni, and Ibn al-Haytham before Copernicus established it definitively. The Scientific Method of Experimentation was developed by Ibn al-Haytham centuries before Descartes. Leibniz and Newton would not have been able to develop calculus without al-Khwarizmi's algebra. And, as we've seen, evolutionary theory did not originate with Darwin; it was described nearly 1,000 years earlier by the East African Muslim Al-Jahiz (who also first described food chains) and the Persian convert to Islam, Ibn Miskawayh.

Al-Jahiz:

"Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring." - Kitab al-Hayawan​

Muhammad Hamidullah's summary of Ibn Miskawayh's thought:

"...God first created matter and invested it with energy for development. Matter, therefore, adopted the form of vapour which assumed the shape of water in due time. The next stage of development was mineral life. Different kinds of stones developed in course of time. Their highest form being mirjan (coral). It is a stone which has in it branches like those of a tree. After mineral life evolves vegetation. The evolution of vegetation culminates with a tree which bears the qualities of an animal. This is the date-palm. It has male and female genders. It does not wither if all its branches are chopped but it dies when the head is cut off. The date-palm is therefore considered the highest among the trees and resembles the lowest among animals. Then is born the lowest of animals. It evolves into an ape. This is not the statement of Darwin. This is what Ibn Maskawayh states and this is precisely what is written in the Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa. The Muslim thinkers state that ape then evolved into a lower kind of a barbarian man. He then became a superior human being. Man becomes a saint, a prophet. He evolves into a higher stage and becomes an angel. The one higher to angels is indeed none but God. Everything begins from Him and everything returns to Him."​

Darwin did not formulate his famous theory without assistance.

Alhazen personally should be credited with being one of the greatest scientists of his age in any discipline, Eastern or Western, yet his inquisitive attitude and scientific mindset wasn't always appreciated by his contemporaries. Here is how his writings were received by fellow Muslims, as quoted in Ibn Warraq's book Why I Am Not a Muslim: "A disciple of Maimonides, the Jewish philosopher, relates that he was in Baghdad on business, when the library of a certain philosopher (who died in 1214) was burned there. The preacher, who conducted the execution of the sentence, threw into the flames, with his own hands, an astronomical work of Ibn al-Haitham [Alhazen], after he had pointed to a delineation therein given of the sphere of the earth, as an unhappy symbol of impious Atheism.

Ibn Warraq? Not a reliable source of information. Ibn al-Haytham was, by all accounts, a devoted Muslim, though debate exists over the specific school of thought to which he adhered.

Alhazen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christianization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK.

a) Islamic universities were second rate.

جامعة الأزهر

b) foundations of algebra? no. Even though Kharazmi is one of my idols, and an Iranian folk hero, his theories were minor adjustments to those of Diophantus of Alexandria. This is a relatively new fact that's come to light, and I don't like it. But it's true.

You apparently don't realize what your idol accomplished. The accomplishments of Diophantus have been known about all along.

Al-Khwarizmi's algebra is regarded as the foundation and cornerstone of the sciences. In a sense, al-Khwarizmi is more entitled to be called "the father of algebra" than Diophantus because al-Khwarizmi is the first to teach algebra in an elementary form and for its own sake, Diophantus is primarily concerned with the theory of numbers. - Gandz, 1936.​

Al-Khwarizmi biography

every other thing Muslims discovered, with the exception of optics, could have and would have been easily discovered by Europe during their golden age, which puts to shame the Islamic golden age. One decade of the European renaissance could humble the entire history of the Muslim world.

These are two fundamentally unprovable statements. As we've seen, many of Europe's discoveries can be traced to Islamic innovations just as you attempt to trace ours to earlier innovations still.

Greeks, Chinese, Indians, and pre-Islamic Persians contributed FAR more to Europe than Islam ever did. Disputing this is ridiculous. Heck, classical Athens alone overshadows the entire Muslim civilization.

Your apostasy has engendered a bias in you against the religion you left, as apostasy is apt to do. This is understandable.

 

[Si modo]

That's absolutely true of the Christian world during the early period of Islam, because in that sense Christianity was very much a restrictive religion. But Christianity was reformed, and oncde that reformation took place a genuine golden age occured in Europe. The rapid spread of ideas in the reformed christian world (granted, it took place only after Islam's prime) put anything done in the Islamic world to shame.

Without Gutenberg's printing press, which was based almost entirely on Chinese and Korean movable type technology that was developed centuries earlier, the European Renaissance wouldn't have been a renaissance at all. In many cases, accomplishments of the Christian world during and even after its Scientific Revolution came after similar accomplishments in the Islamic world. Heliocentrism had been discussed by Qutb ad-Din, Al-Biruni, and Ibn al-Haytham before Copernicus established it definitively. The Scientific Method of Experimentation was developed by Ibn al-Haytham centuries before Descartes. Leibniz and Newton would not have been able to develop calculus without al-Khwarizmi's algebra. And, as we've seen, evolutionary theory did not originate with Darwin; it was described nearly 1,000 years earlier by the East African Muslim Al-Jahiz (who also first described food chains) and the Persian convert to Islam, Ibn Miskawayh.

Al-Jahiz:

"Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring." - Kitab al-Hayawan​

Muhammad Hamidullah's summary of Ibn Miskawayh's thought:

"...God first created matter and invested it with energy for development. Matter, therefore, adopted the form of vapour which assumed the shape of water in due time. The next stage of development was mineral life. Different kinds of stones developed in course of time. Their highest form being mirjan (coral). It is a stone which has in it branches like those of a tree. After mineral life evolves vegetation. The evolution of vegetation culminates with a tree which bears the qualities of an animal. This is the date-palm. It has male and female genders. It does not wither if all its branches are chopped but it dies when the head is cut off. The date-palm is therefore considered the highest among the trees and resembles the lowest among animals. Then is born the lowest of animals. It evolves into an ape. This is not the statement of Darwin. This is what Ibn Maskawayh states and this is precisely what is written in the Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa. The Muslim thinkers state that ape then evolved into a lower kind of a barbarian man. He then became a superior human being. Man becomes a saint, a prophet. He evolves into a higher stage and becomes an angel. The one higher to angels is indeed none but God. Everything begins from Him and everything returns to Him."​

Darwin did not formulate his famous theory without assistance.

Alhazen personally should be credited with being one of the greatest scientists of his age in any discipline, Eastern or Western, yet his inquisitive attitude and scientific mindset wasn't always appreciated by his contemporaries. Here is how his writings were received by fellow Muslims, as quoted in Ibn Warraq's book Why I Am Not a Muslim: "A disciple of Maimonides, the Jewish philosopher, relates that he was in Baghdad on business, when the library of a certain philosopher (who died in 1214) was burned there. The preacher, who conducted the execution of the sentence, threw into the flames, with his own hands, an astronomical work of Ibn al-Haitham [Alhazen], after he had pointed to a delineation therein given of the sphere of the earth, as an unhappy symbol of impious Atheism.

Ibn Warraq? Not a reliable source of information. Ibn al-Haytham was, by all accounts, a devoted Muslim, though debate exists over the specific school of thought to which he adhered.

Alhazen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


OK.




جامعة الأزهر



You apparently don't realize what your idol accomplished. The accomplishments of Diophantus have been known about all along.

Al-Khwarizmi's algebra is regarded as the foundation and cornerstone of the sciences. In a sense, al-Khwarizmi is more entitled to be called "the father of algebra" than Diophantus because al-Khwarizmi is the first to teach algebra in an elementary form and for its own sake, Diophantus is primarily concerned with the theory of numbers. - Gandz, 1936.​

Al-Khwarizmi biography

every other thing Muslims discovered, with the exception of optics, could have and would have been easily discovered by Europe during their golden age, which puts to shame the Islamic golden age. One decade of the European renaissance could humble the entire history of the Muslim world.

These are two fundamentally unprovable statements. As we've seen, many of Europe's discoveries can be traced to Islamic innovations just as you attempt to trace ours to earlier innovations still.

Greeks, Chinese, Indians, and pre-Islamic Persians contributed FAR more to Europe than Islam ever did. Disputing this is ridiculous. Heck, classical Athens alone overshadows the entire Muslim civilization.

Your apostasy has engendered a bias in you against the religion you left, as apostasy is apt to do. This is understandable.

And it looks like your bias missed Halfmoon's point altogether. He does not discount intellectual contribution from Muslims.

When Europe was in its Dark Ages, when the laws were based on religion (Christianity), not much intellectual advancement occurred. During an overlapping time, a time when there was freedom of speech and religious freedom in the Muslim world, intellectualism prospered.

Then the two regions flip-flopped. In Europe, there was less emphasis on the Church being the supreme law - intellectualism prospered. Then the Middle East becomes more ruled by religious law, and close to nothing in comparison comes from them.

Perhaps having secular governments protecting individual freedoms seems like a good idea for all concerned.

 

[Kalam]

When Europe was in its Dark Ages, when the laws were based on religion (Christianity), not much intellectual advancement occurred. During an overlapping time, a time when there was freedom of speech and religious freedom in the Muslim world, intellectualism prospered.

Then the two regions flip-flopped. In Europe, there was less emphasis on the Church being the supreme law - intellectualism prospered. Then the Middle East becomes more ruled by religious law, and close to nothing in comparison comes from them.

Perhaps having secular governments protecting individual freedoms seems like a good idea for all concerned.

The advancements of the Islamic Golden Age took place (mostly) within the framework of the Abbasid Caliphate, a Sunni Islamic government. The Golden Age came to an end because the Mongols destroyed Baghdad, including its libraries and many of the innumerable tomes of scientific knowledge contained therein. Islamic science did not rise again, IMO, because Mu'tazili theology was ousted from its position of influence by Ash'ari theology. Since then, most dominant schools of theology in Islam have taken positions of anti-scientism and have based their theological claims on flawed logic. This decline had only a limited connection with religious freedom and freedom of speech; certain Mu'tazilite rulers persecuted those with divergent opinions just as the Ash'arites and their successors did.

 

[ekrem]

Gallons of gas for the sanctioned Iranian car driver

Turkey eyes oil refinery in northern Iran
(...)$2 billion joint venture to establish a crude oil refinery in northern Iran(...)
Turkey eyes oil refinery in northern Iran - UPI.com