Undeniable facts of Muslim inferiority

Also these days...
Not only our government persons are red-carpeted in the presidencies of Islam world, but also our generals:

4vpetk.jpg
 
Our generals getting State Protocol from Islam Presidents started with Egypt at the invitation of Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak.

Buyukanit is visiting Cairo at the invitation of President Hosni Mubarak. This is the first invitation for an official visit from a foreign president (Milliyet, April 15). Besides meeting with Mubarak and Tantawi, Buyukanit is also scheduled to hold discussions with Lieutenant General Sami Enan, Chief-of-Staff of the Egyptian Armed Forces. While no agenda for the meetings has been released, it seems likely that discussions will cover not only Iraq, but also the turmoil in Gaza, Israel's policy on the West Bank and the gridlock in the U.S.-sponsored “roadmap to peace” for resolving the Palestinian-Israeli dispute.
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=33555

These days it is "modern" for Turkish generals getting state protocol elsewhere.
In the past, those times are gone, US generals got State protocol in Ankara. Those banana-times never come again.
 
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Turkey PM says Lieberman threatened to nuke Gaza
Report: Turkey PM says Lieberman threatened to nuke Gaza - Haaretz - Israel News


He said it had been nine months over the Israeli operations in Gaza and seven months since the donor conference in Sharm El-Sheikh, adding that infrastructure in Gaza still remained destroyed. "There were pledges for the reconstruction of this place but construction materials are still not allowed to Gaza. Why is that? I am now asking again: Why is the West still deaf to it and standing by with folded arms?" he said.
Pointing out the Goldstone report released last week about Gaza, Erdogan said that the report contained facts and those facts were also accepted by the UN Human Rights Commission. He said there were more than 100 UN resolutions regarding Israel, but these resolutions had never been put in practice, which he said was thought-provoking.
"Over 1,500 people were killed and 5,000 were wounded in Gaza. Some of them were brought to Turkey for treatment. I visited them. It was impossible to see them in that condition and remain silent or insensitive," Erdogan stated.
WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS [ Turkey's PM: Israel threatened Gaza with nuke weapons, slams West ]

From Turkish PM in Davos to Shimon Peres about Israelian war-mongering:
"I remember two former prime ministers in your country who said that they felt very happy when they were able to enter Palestine on tanks. Now, those are former prime ministers who have said that they have been very satisfied with themselves when they entered the Palestinian territories on tanks"
WORLD-JAN29-SWITZERLAND-DAVOS-PERES ERDOGAN | Reuters


Threatening nuclear destruction, being happy to roll with tanks into foreign territory.
This devilish talk puts the statesmen heading those states into the "Axis of Evil".
 
Islam is shit

You say this as a spiteful, Christianized apostate.

I have a question--how are Muslims inferior to Christians?

The last I looked, it was the Christians screaming about radical Islam and hiding in bunkers. If a couple of crazy people can make you pee on yourself and play global hopscotch with our armies, then I doubt the sane ones are inferior to christians.:eusa_whistle:
 
I have a question--how are Muslims inferior to Christians?

I don't think Muslims are inferior to Christians... the same way I don't think Russians or Chinese are inferior to Americans, but still say that communism is shitty.

It's just a bad system and completely antithetical to a free society. Now I can make distinctions, saying that one form of Islam is less radical than another one, etc.

But at the end of the day, all that has been achieved in the middle east since the arrival of the religion has been done so in spite of Islam, not because of it
 
But at the end of the day, all that has been achieved in the middle east since the arrival of the religion has been done so in spite of Islam, not because of it

Dude you really need to read a history book.

While the West was deep into the dark ages.

Islamic scholars were translating the known Greek and Roman works into Arabic.

Centurys later the Christian monks had to learn arabic so that they could translate the works into the european languages.
 
But at the end of the day, all that has been achieved in the middle east since the arrival of the religion has been done so in spite of Islam, not because of it

Dude you really need to read a history book.

While the West was deep into the dark ages.

Islamic scholars were translating the known Greek and Roman works into Arabic.

Centurys later the Christian monks had to learn arabic so that they could translate the works into the european languages.

I'm well aware of the history. But a bit more digging does show that the vast majority of "islamic" scholars were Persians, who were only muslim in name until after the Turks took power and developed a powerful military state.

This is why I say "in spite of Islam" because there is no break in time between when the Sassanian Persians and the Islamic Persians made their contributions. Even the prophet himself acknowledged that the pagan Persians were the center of knowledge and science.

Islam merely took everything that the Persians had achieved, added a few things here and there, and repackaged it as if it were all an Islamic achievement. Look at the facts and history yourself (even I didn't know of this until recently, though I'm clearly interested in Iranian/Persian history).

and as for keeping the ancient knowledge?

"The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts…This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture." -Ibn Khaldun

Hell, the original arabic that was spread outside of the region was so poor that Iranians invented the rules of Arabic grammar.
 
I have a question--how are Muslims inferior to Christians?
(...)

They are not by nature, but by socio-political circumstances. The relevant outcome for world-politics is only economical size. States do function with budgets.
Simply put, the Christian states in the nearer history (relative) did and still do have more money. With this money you finance science, military. This defines how big your stick is, and how the size of your stick elevates you to treat other nations with smaller stick.
This is also independently true (Colonialism Africa).

All bullshit of private feelings of individual persons do not count. It's just about the question how big the stick of your nation is.
Big Stick ideology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Having said that, it does also not count to engage in theoretical debates of who translated Roman or Greek science works back and forth. It does only count today. But if we talk theoretical then i think the Brits did contribute most in the shortest period of time to mankind.

We Turks do not claim to have made contributions in "thinking", "poetry" or "translation".
Like the Seljuk Turks said, our contribution to Islam was
According to the Seljuks, they brought to the Muslims "fighting spirit and fanatical aggression".[21]
Great Seljuq Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were several other Turkic tribes in the theater of relevance in Middle-East, mainly immigrated as warrior mercenaries, to local Islamic Empires.
Like Kipchak Turks, or commonly knows as Mameluks.
Mamluk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mameluk Turks took over Abbassid Caliphate, and ruled it in its ending days. It was Ottoman Turks, who did destroy Mameluks.
We do not consider Mameluk Turks or other Turks in the theater of Middle-East as our ancestors.

Our ancestors in the Middle East are Seljuks and Ottomans.
The rest was either opponent filth or heretic.
Turks, since adopted Islam, were always front-fighters of Islam, the continueing force behind Muslim expansion.

If you ask me, Muslim world before Turks never engaged in real conflict with Christians faceing heavy front-wind. The non-Turkish expansion of Islam happened in times were Europe was insignificant.
Seljuk Turks were the reason for crusades to start, later Ottoman Turks mirroring Holy War into Europe.
Ottomans were in non-stop conflict not only with Christiandom, but also with inner-Islamic heretics like Shiites in times where Europe was exponentially ascendend. Half-European powers like Tsarist Russia we also did have to deal with, most likely the only force matching the cruelty flowing through our bloods.

All other Islamic forces are side-players, and can discuss their poetric achievements.
 
I'm well aware of the history. But a bit more digging does show that the vast majority of "islamic" scholars were Persians, who were only muslim in name until after the Turks took power and developed a powerful military state.


"Persians" ;):

Alhazen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Jahiz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Kindi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Muhammad al-Idrisi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Bajjah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Zuhr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Tufail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Averroes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Imam al-Suyuti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Geber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Abbas Ibn Firnas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Masudi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Muqaddasi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Khazini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Bajjah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Jazari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn al-Nafis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn al-Shatir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Khaldun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring." - Al Jahiz (d. 868 CE), Kitab al-Hayawan.
 
I'm well aware of the history. But a bit more digging does show that the vast majority of "islamic" scholars were Persians, who were only muslim in name until after the Turks took power and developed a powerful military state.


"Persians" ;):

Alhazen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Jahiz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Kindi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Muhammad al-Idrisi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Bajjah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Zuhr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Tufail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Averroes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Imam al-Suyuti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Geber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Abbas Ibn Firnas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Masudi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Muqaddasi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Khazini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Bajjah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Jazari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn al-Nafis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn al-Shatir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ibn Khaldun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring." - Al Jahiz (d. 868 CE), Kitab al-Hayawan.

oh, the arab persian distinction was ibn khaldun's, not mine... what I meant with what I said was that the Islamic golden age was merely an act of taking knowledge from older, more advanced civilizations (Persia mainly because it was the closest, but of course Greece, India, and China)... there were a few Arabs (not all in your list, and I could talk about that later) who contributed... but they too did so against the wishes of mainstream Islam at the time.

I'm sure you're familiar with John O'neil's interpretations:

The Arabs who emerged from Arabia with Caliph Umar were mostly illiterate nomads, whose knowledge of what we call science was non-existent. Like all barbarians, they were of course impressed, to begin with at least, by the advanced and civilized cultures which they overran. Egypt, Babylonia, and Persia were ancient civilizations with unique attributes. Each had long-established universities, libraries and traditions of learning. When the Arabs conquered these regions there is evidence that they permitted these institutions, for a short time at least, to continue. Furthermore, these nations, and Persia in particular, were conduits through which flowed new ideas and techniques from the great civilizations of the Far East, from India and China. Much, indeed most, of the new technologies and methods that medieval Europeans learned from the Arabs, were not Arab or even Near Eastern at all, but Chinese and Indian. Europeans used the Arabic names for these things (such as “zero” from the Arabic zirr), because it was from Arab sources that they learned them. But they were not Arab

and while I was browsing O'neil quotes:

It is of course widely accepted nowadays that Islam had an enormous ideological impact upon Europe. Historians tend to focus on certain scientific and philosophical ideas, especially those of philosophers such as the tenth-century Avicenna (Ibn Sina) and the later Averroes (Ibn Rushd), who made extensive commentaries upon Aristotle, and who are routinely touted as examples of Islam's benevolent impact upon Europe. But there was a darker, a much darker, side to Islamic influence, the side that modern historians, chained by the bonds of political correctness, do not dare mention. The real ideological impression of Islam was not the enlightened thinking of Avicenna and Averroes, who were in any case rejected and expelled from the Muslim canon, but the darker thinking found in the Koran and the Haditha: the doctrines of perpetual war against non-believers; of holy deception (taqiyya); of death for apostates and heretics; of judicial torture; of slave and concubine-taking as a legitimate occupation. These were the teachings, and not those of the philosophers, which left an indelible imprint on medieval Europe.[
 
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and while I was browsing O'neil quotes:

It is of course widely accepted nowadays that Islam had an enormous ideological impact upon Europe. Historians tend to focus on certain scientific and philosophical ideas, especially those of philosophers such as the tenth-century Avicenna (Ibn Sina) and the later Averroes (Ibn Rushd), who made extensive commentaries upon Aristotle, and who are routinely touted as examples of Islam's benevolent impact upon Europe. But there was a darker, a much darker, side to Islamic influence, the side that modern historians, chained by the bonds of political correctness, do not dare mention. The real ideological impression of Islam was not the enlightened thinking of Avicenna and Averroes, who were in any case rejected and expelled from the Muslim canon, but the darker thinking found in the Koran and the Haditha: the doctrines of perpetual war against non-believers; of holy deception (taqiyya); of death for apostates and heretics; of judicial torture; of slave and concubine-taking as a legitimate occupation. These were the teachings, and not those of the philosophers, which left an indelible imprint on medieval Europe.[

Basically, this guy is saying that Medieval Europe was a blank slate with no culture.

That the teachings of Islam somehow changed the pastoral people of Europe into a warlike society.

I guess the writer forgot that the people of Europe had been Christians for almost a thousand years before there was any religion known as Islam.

And that everything he accuses Islam of teaching to Europeans, can easily be found in the Bible.
 
Another side to Hilaire Belloc:

Rebecca
Who Slammed Doors For Fun And Perished Miserably

A trick that everyone abhors
In little girls is slamming doors.
A wealthy banker's little daughter
Who lived in Palace Green, Bayswater
(By name Rebecca Offendort),
Was given to this furious sport.

She would deliberately go
And slam the door like billy-o!
To make her uncle Jacob start.
She was not really bad at heart,
But only rather rude and wild;
She was an aggravating child...

It happened that a marble bust
Of Abraham was standing just
Above the door this little lamb
Had carefully prepared to slam,
And down it came! It knocked her flat!
It laid her out! She looked like that.

Her funeral sermon (which was long
And followed by a sacred song)
Mentioned her virtues, it is true,
But dwelt upon her vices too,
And showed the deadful end of one
Who goes and slams the door for fun.

The children who were brought to hear
The awful tale from far and near
Were much impressed, and inly swore
They never more would slam the door, -- As often they had done before.
 
and while I was browsing O'neil quotes:

It is of course widely accepted nowadays that Islam had an enormous ideological impact upon Europe. Historians tend to focus on certain scientific and philosophical ideas, especially those of philosophers such as the tenth-century Avicenna (Ibn Sina) and the later Averroes (Ibn Rushd), who made extensive commentaries upon Aristotle, and who are routinely touted as examples of Islam's benevolent impact upon Europe. But there was a darker, a much darker, side to Islamic influence, the side that modern historians, chained by the bonds of political correctness, do not dare mention. The real ideological impression of Islam was not the enlightened thinking of Avicenna and Averroes, who were in any case rejected and expelled from the Muslim canon, but the darker thinking found in the Koran and the Haditha: the doctrines of perpetual war against non-believers; of holy deception (taqiyya); of death for apostates and heretics; of judicial torture; of slave and concubine-taking as a legitimate occupation. These were the teachings, and not those of the philosophers, which left an indelible imprint on medieval Europe.[

Basically, this guy is saying that Medieval Europe was a blank slate with no culture.

That the teachings of Islam somehow changed the pastoral people of Europe into a warlike society.

I guess the writer forgot that the people of Europe had been Christians for almost a thousand years before there was any religion known as Islam.

And that everything he accuses Islam of teaching to Europeans, can easily be found in the Bible.

I don't agree with him 100%, but what I got from that was that he's referring to the image of how the Muslim world was seen in the middle ages... revisionists always talk like the Europeans worshipped the advanced muslim world, but very little evidence points to a wide-spread respect (with few notable exceptions from some who had visited Spain in the early midde ages)

Furthermore, there is hardly any genuine evidence of an advanced Islamic culture during the golden age. There is the written record, of course (btw, the bulk of the work in the early centuries was done by Christian and Jewish scholars), and it suggests a tremendous culture... which may have happened, but there is little to no archaeological evidence for this.

all that we can see is that the Islamic empire had the opportunity to become the center of the world (it had conquered all the then-relevant world, with the inmense wealth of Persia and Anatolian Byzantium), but was out-done at every turn by the more free-thinking European Christians (and Christianity is no free-thinking religion, which tells you about the narrow-mindedness of Islam).

Even the most innovative and influencial work in the Islamic world (by an Arab, it is true) on optics was not taught outside of Europe... it was invented by an Arab, but was not permitted in the Muslim world.

And can we forget about comparing the Islamic golden age with the European dark ages? First and foremost, most of Europe was not genuinely Christianized until after the peak of the Carolingian dynasty, which ends at around the end of the 10th century. So it was not Christianity holding Northern Europe down. Indeed, Christianity (which only became official in Europe a couple hundred years before Islam, not nearly a thousand) was not even a factor in the dark ages. How about comparing the Islamic golden age to the Greco-Roman world? to the pre-Islamic Persian, Indian, Mediterranean world? to China? When you make these comparisons, the greatest achievements of Islam are easily overshadowed.
 
“If something goes wrong, as a leading country in the region, we cannot remain silent.”
“If a similar event [to the 2008 Gaza War] takes place in Gaza tomorrow, we will react, wherever it may be, Israel or another country. We will not let civilians die in the region. We will do everything we are capable of doing.”
'Turkey cannot remain silent when something goes wrong in the region' - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

It is a clear message:
We will not allow Guantanamo Gaza.



between 180,000 and 200,000 Palestinians in West Bank rural communities have no access to running water, while taps in other areas often run dry.
In the Gaza Strip, the 22-day military offensive Israel launched on December 27 destroyed water reservoirs, wells, sewage networks and pumping stations.
(...)
UN experts say the underground water supplies upon which Gaza's 1.5 million population depend are in danger of collapse.
Researchers have found levels of nitrates rising as high as 331 milligrams per litre, well above World Health Organisation guidelines for a maximum of 50.
High nitrate concentrations in ground contamination can cause a form of potentially fatal anaemia among newborns known as "blue baby syndrome."
(...)
"Israel allows the Palestinians access to only a fraction of the shared water resources, which lie mostly in the occupied West Bank while the unlawful Israeli settlements there receive virtually unlimited supplies," Amnesty researcher Donatella Rovera said in a report.
WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS [ Israel denies Palestinians water, unlimited to Jewish settlers: Amnesty ]
 
In the 21st century we have freed ourselves from the constraints upon our options that we were inable of persueing due to tight alliance with the USA and NATO, we subdued.
The de-facto Franco-German Veto of Turkish EU accession give us greater ambition to now persue our options in the Ottoman sphere of influence in the interest of our socio-economic development, independently from the US-NATO Axis.
Only this is the reason the USA supports Turkish EU Accession and pressures Berlin and Paris, to make sure Turkey is at least somehow controllable through the EU camp.

The partnership of Turkey with France and Germany is being reevaluated, we will break every finger in Offices in Paris and Berlin drawing strategy plans on papers for this region.
They have put theirselves a foot to fall over. Their influence into this area will be non-existing in the near future. France anyway has torpedoed its only foothold in the Mid-East (Syria) due to the Hariri case, Syria is now our asset. Germany is seen as financer of Israel.

With others we will work together, like Italy, UK and Spain. Both 3 are the non-centrist heavyweights of EU who are supporting Turkey independently from left-right governments taking over in these countries.
With Italy we work heavily on military-industrial sphere, developing satellites and attack helicopters. Besides that Turkey imports 36% of yearly Italian defence industry output.
With UK we have signed strategic partnership in 2007 and co-operate in multiple spheres
Turkey UK Strategic Partnership 2007/08
and with Spain we mainly cooperate in the sphere of culture, like the UN sponsored and Spain/Turkish hosted "Alliance of Civilizations".

France and Germany will be blocked of having any influence right at the eastern landbased door-step of EU and Eastern Mediteranean in general.
If Turkey does not become Eastern part of EU, it will become Ottoman 2.0 boardering the EU and taking Muslim assets of the Balkans back into the direct influence, expansion into Blkan is happening as we speak right now.

Together with Russia we will play good-cop, bad-cop in capping EU political access to the Eurasian continent in general and energy in specific.
qoc5ug.jpg


It also becomes clear, that there is no sense in retaining an so-called "Alliance" within NATO with states clearly establishing anti-Turkish positions. There is no sense in this.
The USA must, will and is already forming alternative mechanisms that tie US-Turkish geo-military interests together in an alternative framework. Only such alternative framework can be sustainable throughout the 21st century, which throughout Turkey will emerge as the Western part of gravity-center for an ascending Asia.

World-politics is stone-cold interests, no-one can expect kicking a foot into Turkish comfort zone expecting the nature of Turks to stay silent and swallow.
Erdogan cheered by 16,000 Turks in Cologne (Germany)
The Turkish prime minister tells crowd to resist assimilation.

The political rally by Germany's biggest ethnic minority upset German politicians, who objected to a major public event on German soil being advertised on posters in Turkish only.
Erdogan cheered by 16,000 Turks in Cologne < German news | Expatica Germany

That's it. A foreign Prime Minister comes into your country and is playing Prime Minister with your own population. It's like the Mexican President coming to Texas and holding congress with Texas-Mexicans saying them not to assimilate and the Texas-Mexikans all are applauding and cheering their president.
Next step is financing and establishing private Turkish-language only schools, lyceums in Germany for German-Turks, so that Germany's biggest ethnic minority retains the greatness of their forefathers. Commissionaries of Turkishness within German Lebensraum.

In the West are anti-Islam sentiments, these days it is very easy to label someone Islamist paralell with negative feelings. Turkey gives a shit about about these anti-Islam sentiments, or lobbies labeling her as Anti-Semitiv, Anti-Western. This is only bitch talking out of frustration in seeing Turkey making her unstoppable moves. What counts is the big stick, the Turkish stick gets bigger and thicker everyday.
Many would love to see us conflict with Iran or Russia, stay alientated from issues of Islam world so that it retains in chaos. No, we will cooperate with all of them economically and the Islam world of Middle-East we will organize under Turkish leading to be competitive throughout the 21st century.
Times of Hillaire Belloc are over.

That off course means not, we will make Holy War. Turkey has at least 4 non-Muslim strategic partners. South-Korea, UK, Italy, Spain. The US currently is adjusting her stance, meaning lowering her Grand-Attitude of Greatness in dealing with Turkey, and adjusting to the reality of a Turkey unashamedly showing her steel balls and sending a Foreign Minister into foreign capitals who speaks of Neo-Ottomanism.


Watching Turkey make its moves, we wonder less about the direction it is going than about the limits of its ambition.
Free Article for Non-Members | STRATFOR
 
btw ekrem, it's difficult keeping up with you because of your very rapid and long replies, but I agree with much of what you say

I think in general Turkey is a very underrated country in terms of its importance. I do believe that conventionally, it has a more powerful military than any country in the middle east including Israel. It is also the only example of a genuinely prosperous Muslim-majority country.

It has a responsibility to the "Ottoman" sphere as you put it, because it really is the only country in that region with the legitimacy and ability to actually be a leader. Whenever I hear my parents or other Iranians discussing Turkey, they always use the term "Adam shodan" which literally means "they've become people." That doesn't sound like a complement, but actually it's a reference to how pathetic Iran has become since Islam took over, and how civilized Turkey has become since it adopted Western liberalism as its political foundation.

Unfortunately, it can never be a proper model for the Muslim world because it has attained much of what it has thanks to the elimination of Islam as a political force (well, the reduction, I do assume political Islam is still very powerful there). And I have no idea how on earth you can eliminate Islam from the vast majority of middle eastern countries.
 

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