Undeniable facts of Muslim inferiority

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by ekrem, Oct 7, 2009.

  1. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Hilaire Belloc
    He was one of the most prolific writers in England during the early twentieth century. He is most notable for his Roman Catholic faith, which had an impact on most of his writing.
    Hilaire Belloc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In "The Old and New Enemies of the Catholic Church" he writes:
    LINK: Hilaire Belloc
    First, the observation that not much has changed since the times where this man lived.
    But population boom in Islam makes "material superiority" of Christians less effective in controlling Islam.
    On the other hand, Christianity is a disntegrated block no matter of the Vatican. By the way Islam is also a disintegrated block.

    Despite media-hype and constant push in trying to mix religion with politics, the world has overcome religious fault-lines in modern times. How shitty todays situation might look, it is in comparison to past times not shitty. Who does not believe should read history and compare situation of today to the situation in past. Read about Christian and Muslim pirates on world-seas, taxes for secure travel to worship-places and off course the obvious, constant direct war in the name of monotheistic cult sometimes in east direction sometimes in west-direction.

    Today there is no conflict-orientated block-building on grounds of religion. Israel-Arab issue is also no block-buolding on grounds of religion, it is the issue of some Arabic states and Israel.
    Here we can recall on Hilaire Belloc in this way, that Israel (if through own capabilities or sponsored does not matter) had the "material/technological" advantage over these states.
    Military genius on the battlefield, bravery and maybe luck do alöso count, but decisive is technological superiority.

    As Israel is in no way capable of upkeeping its technological level with own capabilities, it will continue to be a drain on the budgets of its sponsors and a financial liability.
    Israel is an economy of the size 205 Billion $.
    Economy of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In no fucking way it is able to operate 299 F-16 through own capabilities:
    Israeli Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I do not want to question Israelian achievements on different aspects of science or whatever, but this own achievements happen under the conditions that its Military aparatus is no barrier for economical development/sustainability.
    Without various sponsors of Israel its upkeeping of its Military aparatus would make it bankrupt. It would have to make a decision either to let 299 F-16 fly through the skies or build Universities/Highways. Both are not possible.
    The world functions to specific data, this data for Israel is 70 Billion $ in yearly state budget.
    Economy of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The specific data of Israel puts it in th same league as Romania for example.

    As the world is dynamic and various Middle-Eastern countries are growth-regions it is not possible for Israel to upkeep its technological superiority, despite its financial backing of sponsors. Would the world be Disneyland the Gulf capital would be potent to buy into Israelian assets on a controlling stakehold.

    This topic is in the "Religion" forum so I speak of the jewish state. The jewish state by simple facts is actual of no relevance. It is of relevance as long some Christian states want it to be of relevance. To this day no Muslim country was able to break this cycle of putting something irrelevant into relevance. This you can also answer with Hilaire Belloc, as no Muslim country has the "technological advantage" over these countries which put Israel into relevance, even pittier most of the Arab regimes are the dogs of "you-know-whom-i-talking-about".

    Jews and Muslims can co-exist, this co-existing was practized when Muslim "able-to-control-its-territory-and-the-peripherie" Empires existed. Maybe you now realize where I am pointing at, and here you can also recall Hilaire Belloc, the Muslims do not really controll the Muslim geography. This control ceased to exist with the Ottoman Empire.
    Since then either the Brits, French or USA with Israel made the agenda of the classical Muslim geography.
    With the coming redeployment of USA from this area the Muslims once again will be in the position to controll this area. USA succeeded the Brits, and noone will succeed the USA.
    Since the creation of Islam the period starting with the Brits and French was an annomaly, meaning foreign-domination of the Muslim controlled area and its periphery.
    There is no reason to assume this annomaly will, like an unbreakable law exist forever.

    With the Iraq-Invasion, USA triggered regional dynamics which not solely but contributed to the actual situation that the USA will redeploy out of the Middle East to a non-relevant Power besides an oil-flow controlling power. USA will redeploy into the spehere of China, and Good-Luck with your new adventures.

    Maybe these sentences will not prove themself right within the next 2-3 years, but it will become reality within the next 10 years. I am no Nostradamus, just putting geo-political inescapabilities into setences. That's it, the Asian continent, particularly the Pacific Region will rival the "Western World". This is also back-to-the-roots as in history the Asian continent before European ascendance in the middle ages was always the dominat continent, maybe with exception of the Roman Empire.
    So the Western Superpower as the Fire-Man walks to where it burns. And in the east is a big dragon with a big pocket lighter to burn different strategy papers for domination lying on Washington wrting desks projected for this century.
    Every $ spent in the Middle East is one $ less for power projection in the Pacific, whilst the rivaling force from year to year spents more on its designs in the Pacific.
    I hope, i could logically explain you my thoughts on this issue.

    Sometimes in the past i also tried to explain why Israel's countdown for US support has been started. With rising focus on East Asia Israel becomes of decreasing importance. Israel has no capabilities to assist the USA in its adventures in the Pacific. A non-existant navy, a 205 Billion $ economy totally dependent on outside sponsors.
    The USA will be assisted by "blue-navy" capabilty NATO-Allies and US Allies in the Pacific like South-Korea and Japan. The US tax-payers money will be pumped into South-Korea and other allies rather then Israel. Lobbies and other bitches in your country wil not hinder this restructuring of money transfer.
    Strategy thinkers like George Friedmann from Stratfor even puts other countries of $-recipients onto the table, like Poland as an US-sponsored containing force against Russia.
    So the outlook for Israel is not really bright, in the end everything in money distribution is obliged to controlling supervision by simple comparison of effectiveness to costs.
    You won't tell me USA is going to finance an Israelian Navy so that Israel will keep its importance for the USA through the evolving century. :cool:

    Also i think the hyped religious confrontation or "clash of civilizations", what you want to call it, may be short-lived in this media-world with the Communists rising giving a new exploitable issue for media, distracting focus from current non-threat full-beards flickering over TV's to other issues of focus.
    No matter how Terrorism is a shitty thing and needs to be fought, preferentially in coordination without state boundaries, Terrorism is only an existential threat to flyweight countries.

    Talked too much again, just let me focus on geo-politics again.
    You would surely agree with me that e.g. Germany is a major power.
    In theoretical thinking you just compare specific datas of different countries like GDP, budget, Army-Size and so on.
    But i believe country-specific datas can only be of significance when connected to the geographical factor.
    Let me explain: Germany withou doubt is far superior then Iran in any data. But who has more influence and power in Middle-East, Germany or Iran?
    Iran might be inferior to Germany, but Iran with its whole capabilities is on-ground in the Middle-East. It would need germany to switch to war-economy to build-up a presence far distant from home anywhere equaling the Iranian capabilities on-ground in the Middle East.

    Why do i mention this geographical example? Because the continents are not of equal importance to the World dynamics. Someone dominateing the Middle-East is more important for the World dynamics then someone who controlls Europe. Europe is somehow, maybe preferentially, a self-contained continent not really of importance to the world besides economical factor. No matter how potent the heavyweights of Europe might be they always will have limited hardcore power-projection into other areas, if they not switch to war-economy. That's the simple law of A to B distance. This A to B distance law off course applies also to Iran, but its distance to regions of Importance for World Dynamics is short.
    Germany can dominate Austria or Luxemburg, that will never have an impact like Iran controlling Iraq.
    I hope you agree with me, that the importance of geography is important, very important in conjunction with other power-specifying datas like economy and army.

    will continue, just saving not that a browser-crash will ruin my blablah.
     
  2. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    The US is the only superpower so it is normal that the public developments within the USA be it media or lobbies etc. is influencing the approach of the USA in its stance to different foreign politic issues.
    To influence the US you either develop a presence within this public to influence the US from within, as it is the approach of Israel (lobbies) or by sheer weight you directly force the US government to take you into consideration.
    I have yet not figured out if Israel is an equal partner to the US or the US government just tributes to the public developments within the US. By mentioning equal partners there can not be off course equal partners for the US in any kind as the US is the only superpower.
    It is for the US public to decide which meaning underlies the phrase of "Israelian ally". From outside view i have neither seen Israeli contribution to Afghanistan nor Desert Storm or any kind of initiative by the US through umbrellas like UN missions in different parts of the world.
    Maybe for some Americans this meaning of "Israelian Ally" just means an outpost within the Muslim world for keeping the Muslims busy.

    As you should know, Turkey mediated peace talks between Israel and Syria. These peace talks halted when Israel started operation "Cast Lead" in Gaza.
    Besides Israel's little arrangement with the American taxpayer, Israel is isolateing itself.
    The Turkish side is not convinced of Israel wanting peace with Syria. That is also the reason, why Syria for its sincereness and goodwill in these peace talks is now offered preferential cooperation with Turkey, and Israel based on its actions and stance in the peace talks and the Gaza operation is - off the record - blackmailed as a moral embarassment for Middle East peace.

    Blackmailing Syria into the "Axis of evil" is surely also contributed to the public developments within the US and the actors (lobbies etc.) influencing the public. By simple explanation "Syrian devil" means upkeeping status-quo between Israel-Syria and Israelian control of strategic assets like the Golan heights and its water. Israelian-Syrian peace in a sincere and lasting way means territorial changes pro-Syria. Good morning.
    I think Israel just lives good in the whole current situation. A constant situation of crisis gives Israel a little more cover to build more settlements, avoid peace-talks underlying territorial changes.

    In September 2009 the Turkish FM sent inquiry to Israelian side to visit Israel and Gaza. The Israelian side answered that it will not allow the Turkish FM to cross into Gaza via Israelian territory. The Turkish FM then completely cancelled the visit to Israel.
    I don't know what you think of, but by such acts it is not possible to block Turkey from developing a political approach and implementing that approach into the Palestine issue. It just leads to modification of that approach to the reality that there is an obstacle in form of Israel that tries to block that approach. There is no competition between Israel and Turkey, and Turkey is not subdued to the principles of the US public mentioned in the first sentence in the first paragraph. No matter how many elements there are witthin the USA trying to influence US stance on Turkey, the US government will develop its stance to Turkey on US near-term, mid-term and long-time interests. All 3, do not get me wrong it also applies to Turkey, dictate to work together then against each other. There is also no bullying capacity by US over Turkey to force Turkey into cooperation with Israel, when Turkey decides it is not in its interest to cooperate with Israel. By saying so it also means Israel can not run to USA expecting the US to overlook its multi-facetted interests with Turkey and limiting the US-Turkish relations on Israelian interests, the US would also not try as this would mean huge credibility damage for it in US-Turkish relations trying to play hard-ball in the interests of another nation.
    This means in short that Turkey is the only regional country to develop a stance to Middle Eastern issues independent from the US-Israelian axis. By saying so, it is logical that Turkey is the only force to develop into a pain in the ass for Israel. There will be no US-sponsored negative UN security decisions upon Turkey, no other negative developments initiated by USA over Turkey upon any kind of Israelian-Turkish issue. And let me say, that Turkey does off course also have influencing capabilities of the US public, we are in the end major customer of US defence-industry and as such a precious $-income machine not of relevance when the dates approach for US congress to decide over US foreign military assistance like in the case of Israel. We finance it ourself and keep the status of an $-income machine independent from the US congress aid.
    Next orders have possible amount of
    - 7,8 Billion $ for Patriot PAC-3
    - 13 Billion $ for F-35
    - 3 Billion $ for new F-16
    - 1,1 Billion $ for CCIP upgrade

    Not mentioning civil aviation.
    Non-governmental actors in USA having commercial interests with Turkey. It is an operational preference and choice of the options available on the market by Turkey, not a necessity. In the end Turkey is happy with the products and the US industry is happy with Turkey. Right? I think so:
    - Lockheed Martin
    - Boeing
    - Raytheon
    - Northrop-Gunman
    - Sikorsky (Blackhawk Helicopters)
    - General Electric
    ...
    ...
    ATC - Corporate Members


    The Israelian Airforce was since 1996 granted possibilities to train within Turkish Airspace with Turkish and other nation's airforces. Turkey has canceled Israelian activity within Turkish Airspace.
    كونا : Turkey opts out of military maneuvers with Israel - الدفاع والأمن - 09/10/2009
    This years "Anatolian Eagle" exercise will be without Israel. "Anatolian Eagle" is one of the 3 and most complex and major Airforce exercises in the world with several participating nations. In the end there is moral guiltiness of Turkey by letting Israel train in Turkey to bomb the shit out of Palestinians. I therefore applaud this decision.
    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2349


    We can expect futher detoriation of Israelian-Turkish cooperation off the record. The Israelian side is a moral embarrassment for Middle East and a political liability. Turkey has to position herself away from Israel to proceed with its policy for the region. For this policy Israel has a negative impact on how Turkey is being viewed in the region it aspires to organize. We are the only regional force without a regional enemy, and will not participate in any as it is, meaning non-Turkish made block-building, within a region that is heading to rising block-building. We offer a different approach to regional countries to follow having the same philosophy of "no conflicts in my hinterland hindering the flow of goods".
    Besides Israel having nuclear weapons it does not form a conventional threat to Turkey, if Turkey thinks the NATO nuclear umbrella in Konya and Incirlik does not stimulate its interests, it will seek for indigenious solutions. Be it Iran or Israel. I don't think the outcome will be good if the mobilization of inland capabilities must be assesed by the feeling of being threatened nuclearily. In such case the military budget must be restructured to take back the initiative. Turkey is neither in state of economy-war nor taking other initiatives intentionally distracting capabilities away from sustainable civilian and economical development. In economy-war it means we produce for invasion and holding the initiative through unpredictable follow-on effects. Any regional country can not scope with the rate the Turkish industry will put hardware on the battlefield and into the seas. But that is only war-mongering not going to happen. I also do not see any kind of conflict in the region other then post-US Iraq. In this battle, not unavoidably meaning military conflict, over Iraq Israel will anyway have no participation. Iraqis will witness chaos brought upon them by regional countries fighting for influence. Iran, Saudi-Arabia and Turkey. The real conflict will be between Iran and Saudi-Arabia, both throwing no shit in the direction of Turkey to avoid Turkey takeing a position pro-/contra Saudi / Iran.

    Turkey is currently rebuilding the water infrastructure of Gaza which was bombed by Israel.
    WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS [ Turkey to restore Gaza water infrastructure system damaged by Israel ]
    Hopefully this should be a barrier from being bombed again. Israel is such unpredicatble that you really don't know what they are going to do, but i don't think they will bomb it again as this would portray the Turkish government infront off the Turkish public as a clown, a role that is not congruent with our self-perception at home and and the perception of Turkey abroad.

    Free Article for Non-Members | STRATFOR

    This historical "not always to the delight of others" will translate itself in the present firstly to Israel. The only contribution of Israel to the region has been chaos, by that aiming to maximize non-regional outside support through this chaos.

    Turkey promised to the world that it will go after "The Goldstein report" during the UN meeting in New York.
    Gaza report not politically motivated: Goldstein- Hindustan Times


    There were only two leaders who did discuss Goldstone report during UN meeting, Netanyahu and Erdogan. The Goldstone Report leaves Israelian and Gaza authorities 6 months time to bring the persons guilty for the war crimes to justice. If this does not happen, the report recommends taking the issue to the Security Council and the International Court for Criminals.
    As the Turkish Prime Minister said, he will bring the Goldstein Report to Security Council after the 6 months passes of inactive actions:
    International Views | Turkey’s new role in the UN Security Council
     
  3. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    “The mission concluded that actions amounting to war crimes and possibly, in some respects, crimes against humanity, were committed by the Israel Defense Force (IDF).”
    (..)
    “The mission finds that the conduct of the Israeli armed forces constitute grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in respect of wilful killings and wilfully causing great suffering to protected persons and as such give rise to individual criminal responsibility,” the report’s executive summary said. “It also finds that the direct targeting and arbitrary killing of Palestinian civilians is a violation of the right to life.”
    From UN homepage
    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=32057&Cr=palestin&Cr1
     
  4. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Although Iran prefers to view Turkey as a fellow rising, non-Arab leader of the Middle East, the Turks have the Iranians beat in a geopolitical contest.
    In the economic sphere, Iran is grossly dependent on oil revenues for its income.
    (...)
    The Turks, on the other hand, have the largest economy out of any other Muslim nation (including energy powerhouse Saudi Arabia), and while its manufacturing industry is now taking a hit from declining exports to Europe (...) Turkey has already increased exports to Iraq by 75 percent in the first two months of 2009.
    (...)
    The Iranians may have designs to divert much of Iraq’s oil wealth in the predominantly Shiite south toward Tehran’s direction, but the Turks have the technological skill to ramp up oil production in Iraq to feed the Western market, and have already put these plans into motion (not to mention there is a Saddam-era pipeline that the Turks have maintained in tip-top shape just waiting to be used). With more cash to spare, the Turks also have more resources than the Iranians to contribute to Iraq’s reconstruction efforts, thereby enabling Ankara to purchase political allies with greater frequency than many of its competitors.
    (...)
    Militarily, Turkey is also a pre-eminent power with one of the largest standing armies in the world (...) and a long-standing tradition of military professionalism. The Iranians also boast a large standing army, but its military is primarily an infantry force designed for maintaining internal control within Iran’s mountainous terrain. While the Turkish military owns some of the most advanced military systems and is extremely capable of launching mechanized division-sized operations, the Iranians depend on outdated equipment leftover from the U.S. military patronage days of the Shah. Consequently, Iran has to depend heavily on the asymmetrical warfare capabilities of its militant proxies, such as Hezbollah.
    (...)
    The Arab/Sunni-Persian/Shiite rivalry runs deep, and no amount of diplomatic niceties in royal palaces will dilute this distrust. Turkey, on the other hand, is a Sunni power now run by a powerful Islamist party, the Justice and Development Party (AKP). (...)
    Turkey is viewed by the Sunni Arab powerhouses, particularly Egypt and Saudi Arabia, as a welcome protector against the Persians. As Turkey becomes more active in its Muslim neighborhood, it can count on the support of the Sunni Arabs to promote its agenda.
    (...)
    In Iraq, the Turks’ topmost priority is to keep Kurdish autonomy in check through a combination of diplomatic maneuvering, military pressure and economic incentives. This is a game that the Turks know well, and Ankara is eager to reclaim its authority over the Kurdish portfolio now that the United States is drawing down in Iraq and leaving such matters in Ankara’s hands. The Turks will also find a number of key political allies in the Iraqi Sunni and Shiite camps in Baghdad who share their intense aversion to the Kurds. Major political figures like Shiite Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki and Sunni Vice President Tareq al Hashemi of the Iraqi Islamic Party already have a tight relationship with the Turks, and have gotten a great deal of political mileage out of making bold anti-Kurdish moves to keep the oil rich city of Kirkuk out of Kurdish hands. There are also a number of Sunni and autonomous Shiite players who are far more willing to work with the Turks than be pulled into Iran’s orbit of influence.
    (...)
    In the Levant, Turkey’s agenda is a bit more complex. (...) it wants to stabilize its southwestern frontier by subduing Syria by restricting Hezbollah (thereby stripping Iran of its key allies) (...)
    Additionally, by assuming greater responsibility for problems stemming from Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas, the Turks are looking further down the road at a scenario where they can make Israel — its powerful regional ally — more dependent on the Turks by back-stopping the U.S. role as Israel’s external security guarantor.
    Free Article for Non-Members | STRATFOR

    Hope it was a good read for you, maybe one last thing:
    The Ottoman Revival: - Turkish nationalism goes back to the future - opinion - Yemen Times

    Good for me to have had the privilege of being born into Turkish citizenship and let other people take part in cheering in cheering this luck. I could also have been born somewhere in the Afghanistan Mountains. My country provides order for me and it will provide for non-Turkish citizens also.
     
  5. betchamad
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    Lauch ICBM to nuke those satanic islamic!!
     
  6. eagleseven
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    eagleseven Quod Erat Demonstrandum

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    Where's Sunni Man when you need him?
     
  7. Modbert
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    Oh this would be an epic troll battle.
     
  8. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Dude, wake-up. Any kind of nuclear action in this world will irreversibly destroy if not the earth then the trust between people on earth. Mankind will NOT recover from such stand-off.

    THE total number of Muslims in the world is 1.57 billion, nearly a quarter of the global total, according to a new survey of the world's Muslim population by the Pew Research Center
    Islam: Faith in data | The Economist
     
  9. ekrem
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    Defense Minister Ehud Barak warned on Monday against further harming Israel's relations with Turkey (...) the defense minister said, "The relations between Israel and Turkey are strategic and have been maintained for dozens of years. Despite all the ups and downs, Turkey continues to be a central player in our region; it is unsuitable to be drawn into criticizing it."
    Barak: Don't Get Harsh on Turkey - News Briefs - Israel National News
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  10. ekrem
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    Foreign Ministry calls emergency meeting to discuss crisis

    Officials at the Foreign Ministry called an emergency meeting Sunday to discuss the crisis between Israel and Turkey, marked by the cancellation.
    Barak warns against further harming Israel-Turkey relations - Haaretz - Israel News

    Canceling the participation of Israel in the exercise cancels for the first time the "division of roles" between the civilians and the military in Turkey and makes it clear to Israel that Turkey will now speak with a single voice.
    Erdogan's support for a UN deliberation of the Goldstone Report and his declaration that "those responsible for war crimes must be identified and held accountable," is not based on any wish to please Iran or Syria. Turkey has a steady and clear policy on this issue and it is not a proxy for any country.
    Turkey's attitude toward Israel is changing - Haaretz - Israel News

    Elbit Systems, Israel’s biggest non-government defense contractor, declined (...) as much as 2.7 percent to nearly 218 shekels (...)
    “Deterioration in relations between Turkey and Israel could negatively impact sales to the Turkish army by the Israeli defense industry,” Gilad Alper and Gil Dattner, analysts at Excellence Nessuah Investment House Ltd. in Ramat Gan, Israel, wrote in an e-mailed report on Monday.
    Elbit falls most in a month after drill delay - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review


    Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu's cancelled his visits to Israel recently after Israel denied his request to visit the Gaza Strip from Israeli territory.
    Israel hits back at Turkey over scuppered air force drill - Haaretz - Israel News
     

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