Uncovered Women

[CitizenPained]

That's not Pentecostal.

 

[Foxfyre]

My family are Pentecostal.
There is a time and place for everything.
My wife won't wear pants to Church and all the women's dresses are ankle length.
I don't see it as controlling, but then again I have never heard a direct sermon on the subject as to the whys.
(I married into it )
It is merely humbling one's self before God......no gaudy jewelry or make up, etc...


(house full....distracted to keep a strong point.....reply if unclear)

Here's a question for you. I had several classmates who were pentecostal. They did not stand or pledge to the flag, and the girls didn't cut their hair or nails. Their clothes looked more like garbs than dresses as most looked homemade and not well suited to their body types. I still see these families out. I also see menonite families whose women go only slightly more extreme than the pentecostal women.

BUT the thing I notice with the menonites ANd the pentecostals is that the men dress conventionally in purchased shirts and taylored pants. So what gives. Why do you make your women look like old plough horses while you, yourself dress like the stud muffin?

Not to go off topic on this thread........(Like that's ever happened)

But, when I see a group of Petecostal's out I see all of them with iphones and such, texting, etc. I thought this was forbidden? Or is that the Amish?

The Amish do not own modern appliances, electronics etc. It is not forbidden to them to use such things, however, if such are available to them. They can use public phones for instance.

I am unaware of any Pentecostal groups that forbid modern conveniences. Though there are some sects as modern as anybody, most probably do teach modesty and decency in dress, speech, and behavior.

 

[Sunshine]

My family are Pentecostal.
There is a time and place for everything.
My wife won't wear pants to Church and all the women's dresses are ankle length.
I don't see it as controlling, but then again I have never heard a direct sermon on the subject as to the whys.
(I married into it )
It is merely humbling one's self before God......no gaudy jewelry or make up, etc...


(house full....distracted to keep a strong point.....reply if unclear)

Here's a question for you. I had several classmates who were pentecostal. They did not stand or pledge to the flag, and the girls didn't cut their hair or nails. Their clothes looked more like garbs than dresses as most looked homemade and not well suited to their body types. I still see these families out. I also see menonite families whose women go only slightly more extreme than the pentecostal women.

BUT the thing I notice with the menonites ANd the pentecostals is that the men dress conventionally in purchased shirts and taylored pants. So what gives. Why do you make your women look like old plough horses while you, yourself dress like the stud muffin?

Not to go off topic on this thread........(Like that's ever happened)

But, when I see a group of Petecostal's out I see all of them with iphones and such, texting, etc. I thought this was forbidden? Or is that the Amish?

Amish are the most restrictive. They don't use modern appliances in their homes, but if they have a business they do. Holmes County Ohio is a good example. They have large dairies, restaurants, and other businesses they could not run without modern inventions. The Amish sequester themselves from society, don't pay taxes, etc. http://www.visitamishcountry.com/

The Mennonites are kind of in between. They are a tad bit more modern, but they to isolate themselves.

The Pentecostals are mainstream, go to public schools, etc. But they dress their women and girls in those frumpy garbs. They use all the modern conveniences.

 

[random3434]

Thanks Foxy and Sunshine.

I'm Methodist. We wear what we want, because it doesn't matter how we are dressed to worship God.


The 11 o'clock service is even casual, some come in shorts or such. I don't think God minds, he's just glad you're there I'm thinking.

 

[Avatar4321]

I'm not entirely sure why a belief in modesty and respect for our bodies and the bodies of those we care about is a barbaric or abusive. Perhaps someone could explain that to me.

Perhaps, however, it's more an issue of submission. Does God expect us to submit to Him? Does He ask us to submit to others? If He does, why would those practices be abusive or barbaric?

You don't get to rephrase the question with more questions. Answer the questions straight up. You sound like Dan Peterson, for heaven's sake, and that is a bad thing.

But I will tell you that God expects us to use our heads. There is no reason for you to go all pharisee on this issue. Women are the equal of men, and the day will come in the LDS Church, my friend, when women will have the priesthood.

When an adult has to submit him or herself in a private association to another person, then it is time to leave that association.

I'm honored that you'd associate me with the good Dr. Peterson. It's not everyday I get compared to a respectable scholar.

As to the rest of your post. Has anyone claimed that God doesn't want us to use our heads?

You think we should leave our association with God because we are asked to submit? You think we should leave our marriages because we are asked to submit? Our Churches?

And why should we not submit in only a private association? If submitting is so bad, why should we submit to public associations? What reason is there to submit to the government?

I understand that submission is a difficult concept for many. Especially in our individualistic self centered culture. But there is power in submitting to God and to others we should be submitting to.

 

[CitizenPained]

I don't believe in dressing suggestively for services, though. Why be a distraction? I dress nicely (I would never wear shorts in a synagogue, but that's a matter of culture ) but I still like to be fashionable.

Im on the fence about God, but I think He would appreciate shorts or a pantsuit, as long as you're showing respect. For me, its about being mindful of what I'm doing.

 

[Sunshine]

OK, guys. Don'tchall get all hot and bothered now!

Seems it's the ones that SHOULD cover up who just don't.

 

[Foxfyre]

Thanks Foxy and Sunshine.

I'm Methodist. We wear what we want, because it doesn't matter how we are dressed to worship God.


The 11 o'clock service is even casual, some come in shorts or such. I don't think God minds, he's just glad you're there I'm thinking.

I attend a non-denominational church now, have worked for and attended many other denominations over my adult life, but I was born and raised a Methodist. Nowadays church is usually pretty casual as you describe. But as a kid, you dressed up to go to church--wore your Sunday best. That meant clean clothes, pressed, boys with shirttails tucked in and shoes shined; girls in skirts and blouses or dresses--the little ones in white socks and shiney patten leather shoes; the older girls (12 or so and up) wearing stockings with straight seams in back and without any runs.

The rationale is that we present the best of ourselves to God and don't give him second best. For the same reason the church should be as beautiful as possible, clean, polished, and in good repair. As a child that made sense to me.

And now I just hope God doesn't really care how we dress when we go to church.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't believe in dressing suggestively for services, though. Why be a distraction? I dress nicely (I would never wear shorts in a synagogue, but that's a matter of culture ) but I still like to be fashionable.

Im on the fence about God, but I think He would appreciate shorts or a pantsuit, as long as you're showing respect. For me, its about being mindful of what I'm doing.

As long as you are giving God your best, I think He is pretty flexible.

 

[Montrovant]

Thanks Foxy and Sunshine.

I'm Methodist. We wear what we want, because it doesn't matter how we are dressed to worship God.


The 11 o'clock service is even casual, some come in shorts or such. I don't think God minds, he's just glad you're there I'm thinking.

I attend a non-denominational church now, have worked for and attended many other denominations over my adult life, but I was born and raised a Methodist. Nowadays church is usually pretty casual as you describe. But as a kid, you dressed up to go to church--wore your Sunday best. That meant clean clothes, pressed, boys with shirttails tucked in and shoes shined; girls in skirts and blouses or dresses--the little ones in white socks and shiney patten leather shoes; the older girls (12 or so and up) wearing stockings with straight seams in back and without any runs.

The rationale is that we present the best of ourselves to God and don't give him second best. For the same reason the church should be as beautiful as possible, clean, polished, and in good repair. As a child that made sense to me.

And now I just hope God doesn't really care how we dress when we go to church.

I'm fairly certain if a Christian god exists, he can see you even when you aren't in church. That being the case, he probably wouldn't be impressed by someone's 'church dress' if it's different from the way they dress the rest of the time.

 

[Sunni Man]

All of this wearing casual clothes to go worship God in his house is absolutely ridiculous.

If you had an invitation to go to the White House to meet the President (Bush/Obama) to have dinner with a CEO of a major company; maybe even the Pope.

I bet what you would wear your finest clothes and be groomed to the max.

Yet people go to worship the Master and Creator of the Universe.

And dress as though they're going to a flea market or swap meet.

 

[hortysir]

The way I see it is the Lord gave men a role and women a role. The role of men would be to 'lead' and to 'provide', as Jesus leads and provides. The role of women are to be 'lead' as the church is lead by Jesus, and to be the 'help meet'(or caretaker) for her husband.

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

This does not mean a woman is any less than a man, only that the woman has a role that the Lord gave her. Most of the time when a woman does not like the role she was given and chooses not to follow that role, things start to go down hill.

This also don't mean that men are to be a leader that has no passion for the one he is leading. When a man does not keep his role by providing for his wife and refuses to lead her though life, what happens to her would also be a mark on him. If things go down hill he can not blame her if he refuses to uphold the role he was given.

Also, the man is told to 'love' his wife and treat her with respect. Even if he is in the position of ruling over her he is still to cherish her.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

And what happens when the man abdicates his role and dies leaving the woman alone with little children to raise?

She just finds another man is that it? How many child sex abuse cases have you read about. You know, it's ALWAYS the step father!

Geze, you and that flamer the apostle Paul! Too bad you weren't there to get as room with him. You would have made beautiful grunts together.

I returned to this thread to sincerely answer, to the best of my humble ability, what I thought was a serious question rooted in curiosity.

That not being the case, since it's apparently a thinly veiled attempt at ridicule, I make my exit via *unsubscribe*

buh-bye


PS
Anyone genuinely interested in what I learned from Bishop Brooks, today, is more than welcome to PM me.

 

[CitizenPained]

I don't believe in dressing suggestively for services, though. Why be a distraction? I dress nicely (I would never wear shorts in a synagogue, but that's a matter of culture ) but I still like to be fashionable.

Im on the fence about God, but I think He would appreciate shorts or a pantsuit, as long as you're showing respect. For me, its about being mindful of what I'm doing.

As long as you are giving God your best, I think He is pretty flexible.

I think that's the point: putting forth our best to show respect for what we're learning.

Thanks Foxy and Sunshine.

I'm Methodist. We wear what we want, because it doesn't matter how we are dressed to worship God.


The 11 o'clock service is even casual, some come in shorts or such. I don't think God minds, he's just glad you're there I'm thinking.

I attend a non-denominational church now, have worked for and attended many other denominations over my adult life, but I was born and raised a Methodist. Nowadays church is usually pretty casual as you describe. But as a kid, you dressed up to go to church--wore your Sunday best. That meant clean clothes, pressed, boys with shirttails tucked in and shoes shined; girls in skirts and blouses or dresses--the little ones in white socks and shiney patten leather shoes; the older girls (12 or so and up) wearing stockings with straight seams in back and without any runs.

The rationale is that we present the best of ourselves to God and don't give him second best. For the same reason the church should be as beautiful as possible, clean, polished, and in good repair. As a child that made sense to me.

And now I just hope God doesn't really care how we dress when we go to church.

I'm fairly certain if a Christian god exists, he can see you even when you aren't in church. That being the case, he probably wouldn't be impressed by someone's 'church dress' if it's different from the way they dress the rest of the time.

I disagree. I think God cares about the intentions and the purpose. If Methodists want to wear shorts to church, that's their business, but fuck if I'd let my son show up to shul in shorts. He can wear sneakers with his khakis and I'm happy to sew him a Toy Story kippah, but that's as casual as we get.

 

[catzmeow]

I disagree. I think God cares about the intentions and the purpose. If Methodists want to wear shorts to church, that's their business, but fuck if I'd let my son show up to shul in shorts. He can wear sneakers with his khakis and I'm happy to sew him a Toy Story kippah, but that's as casual as we get.

If God cares whether you wear shorts or not, does he also care if you use vulgarities?

 

[CitizenPained]

Why would He? It's a matter of language. No other word can take the place of 'fuck' as it can be used as any part of speech. It isn't like I said 'BARUCH ATAH ADO-*******---I!" before Friday night prayers.

At any rate, dressing nicely or paying attention to what you eat is just part of the mindfullness that goes along with Jewish tradition.

 

[CitizenPained]

Also, from what I can tell...Christians tend to...sing....in church...and Methodists are very relaxed in practice.

Jews...well, we study. Even black churches put on their Sunday best, and you know there's no lack of soul there. So again, I think it depends on your intents and purposes. If I showed up to shul in shorts, I'd be telling the 300 other people that dressed appropriately that I don't care about what they are doing.

I wouldn't show up to a teaching job in shorts. Why would I do that when I'm setting aside time for God?

 

[catzmeow]

I guess I figure that if God cares about the little stuff, he cares about ALL the little stuff, not just the parts that other people might see and talk about.

 

[CitizenPained]

I guess I figure that if God cares about the little stuff, he cares about ALL the little stuff, not just the parts that other people might see and talk about.

Nowhere in the Torah does it say not to use the word fuck or any other vulgarity. Not that I recall.

 

[Wingsofwind]

Also, when a woman's husband dies she would be directly under the Lord only. Unless of course her father is still alive. Then she would be under her father again. This also don't mean her father can abuse this role. He is to treat her with respect also.

Can you explain a little more specifically what this means? Can a father forbid a daughter to behave in certain ways?

I can't help but wonder if you are only asking this to be spiteful. In any case, I will try to answer.

As long as the father is asking her to act Godly. If he is asking her to act more modest and decent then yes. However, if he is asking her to act whorish and slutty then no. The daughter would know if the father is asking her to act Godly or not.

Is she required to move home to her father's house?

I have not read anything that says she has to move back into her father's house. However, is one verse where the daughter was told to go live with her father and another one where it states 'if' the daughter was to go back to live with her father. Neither one is saying that if the daughter is a widow she 'has' to.

Gen 38:11 Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father's house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house.
Lev 22:13 But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father's house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father's meat: but there shall no stranger eat thereof.

Can the father tell the daughter not to date, work, wear certain clothes, etc?

Again, if the father is asking her these things due to the fact he wants her to be more Godly then yes. However, we are told that if a woman is widowed under a certain age she should remarry. So if she is under that age then the father can not tell her she can not date.

Also if she is not living in her father's house, then it would be hard for her not to work to pay her own bills.

And as to her clothes, if she is a Godly woman her father should not have to tell her what to wear.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I'm not entirely sure why a belief in modesty and respect for our bodies and the bodies of those we care about is a barbaric or abusive. Perhaps someone could explain that to me.

Perhaps, however, it's more an issue of submission. Does God expect us to submit to Him? Does He ask us to submit to others? If He does, why would those practices be abusive or barbaric?

You don't get to rephrase the question with more questions. Answer the questions straight up. You sound like Dan Peterson, for heaven's sake, and that is a bad thing.

But I will tell you that God expects us to use our heads. There is no reason for you to go all pharisee on this issue. Women are the equal of men, and the day will come in the LDS Church, my friend, when women will have the priesthood.

When an adult has to submit him or herself in a private association to another person, then it is time to leave that association.

I'm honored that you'd associate me with the good Dr. Peterson. It's not everyday I get compared to a respectable scholar.

As to the rest of your post. Has anyone claimed that God doesn't want us to use our heads?

You think we should leave our association with God because we are asked to submit? You think we should leave our marriages because we are asked to submit? Our Churches?

And why should we not submit in only a private association? If submitting is so bad, why should we submit to public associations? What reason is there to submit to the government?

I understand that submission is a difficult concept for many. Especially in our individualistic self centered culture. But there is power in submitting to God and to others we should be submitting to.

Dan is an apologeticsporn professor who twists sources and footnotes almost as badly as Lewis Midgley did. The two truly perverted their defense of LDS'ism, and are considered laughing stocks, but . . . I digress.

You are no authority on submission, because you refuse to submit to the counsel of King Benjamin in Mosiah 4 and go to all sorts of conniption fits to apolgeticsporn your perversion of it.

We submit in public association because folks have the vote, Avatar. In private association and submission, people are taught to submit without vote. A devilish doctrine.