Unbelieveable

[Toro]

wait.. now the righties are supporting retirement packages and wealth redistribution?

Retirement packages are NOT wealth redistribution. They are contractual agreements between an employee and their Employer. They are based on a set period of work time, almost always in decades. The employee WORKS for the benefits and usually pays into a program for it. Even Government employees like the military pay, you see, they pay taxes. Further in order for the spouse of the military retiree to get the retirement package on his death the retiree must pay a hefty sum from his retirement package.

The question is whether or not the benefits offered are justified.

There is a big problem coming with government employees retirement benefits. Simply put, what has been promised to government employees could bankrupt states, cities, counties, etc. in a decade or so.

Some of the practices are egregious. In some states, your pension is determined based on your pay in the last 1-3 years, so employees will work as much overtime in the last year as possible to generate as high of a pension payment, which often leads to tremendous abuse.

 

[shintao]

The question is whether or not the benefits offered are justified.

There is a big problem coming with government employees retirement benefits. Simply put, what has been promised to government employees could bankrupt states, cities, counties, etc. in a decade or so.

Some of the practices are egregious. In some states, your pension is determined based on your pay in the last 1-3 years, so employees will work as much overtime in the last year as possible to generate as high of a pension payment, which often leads to tremendous abuse.

Some people want something for nothing, but enjoyed the benefits, it is just paying for what you receive. It is like going out to dinner, being wined & dined to the hilt, then wanting to refuse paying after the glow wears off. Americans don't know how cheap they have it. In Germany they have full wage retirements.

 

[JBeukema]

So the total payout is never greater than the amount of surplus value generated by your labour power?

I dunno if it is or not.

What matters is that the company thought it would be during the full term of your employment.

If you're being given more than you generated, where'd it come from?

Wealth redistribution and the very same too-big promises they keep ranting about whenever they scream about the unions ruining everything

 

[RadiomanATL]

So the total payout is never greater than the amount of surplus value generated by your labour power?

I dunno if it is or not.

What matters is that the company thought it would be during the full term of your employment.

If you're being given more than you generated, where'd it come from?

Wealth redistribution and the very same too-big promises they keep ranting about whenever they scream about the unions ruining everything

But what if it is not more?

 

[AmericanFirst]

The lengths that the desperate Liberals will go to to try and tarnish their opponents. The latest disgrace, you ask? Attacking a candidate because their husband EARNED a retirement package for working for the Government.

The claim? That some how this EARNED retirement package is exactly like supporting Obamacare. What next? Going to claim that every Government retiree and every military retiree are using Obamacare? And thus should support it?

The further implication is that somehow this man, who EARNED a retirement package by WORKING for the Government long enough to RETIRE, is sucking off the Government tit. And that by being married to him and also being covered by his RETIREMENT package, he EARNED, the candidate is also sucking off the Government tit.

How much lower can they go in their desperate attempts to save themselves from rightfully PISSED off voters?

I retired after working over 26 years of my life for the gov't. and I am outraged with obamacare and everything else they are doing to my country. If they think I owe them something they another thing coming. My vote is mine not theirs. Liberals are idiots.

 

[JBeukema]

I dunno if it is or not.

What matters is that the company thought it would be during the full term of your employment.

If you're being given more than you generated, where'd it come from?

Wealth redistribution and the very same too-big promises they keep ranting about whenever they scream about the unions ruining everything

But what if it is not more?

Then the righties have internal consistency in that particular case

So... do government workers ever receive more in wages/retirement than the total the surplus capital/value generated by their labour power during the course of their employment?

 

[AmericanFirst]

The lengths that the desperate Liberals will go to to try and tarnish their opponents. The latest disgrace, you ask? Attacking a candidate because their husband EARNED a retirement package for working for the Government.

I think you miss the point. Noting that she and her husband choose their health benefits through an insurance exchange (when she's running explicitly on denying others the opportunity to buy plans through exchanges) is not an "attack." Quite the opposite: that's a wonderful thing. I'm glad for them that they have an entity (in this case, the federal Office of Personnel Management) setting minimum standards and negotiating benefits and premiums for participating plans so that they can rest easy knowing high-quality options are available to them. I'm thrilled that they enjoy protections that many other consumers in their (pre-Medicare) age range and younger don't have available to them when they're buying individual coverage (e.g. coverage is provided without a medical examination or restrictions because of age, current health, or pre-existing conditions).

That's wonderful! I don't know how you could "tarnish" someone with that. Quite the contrary, some of us want to make this more widely available. In a sane world, the notion that state-based exchanges are something worth including in health reform wouldn't be particularly controversial. Even the health care bill introduced by Paul Ryan last year (H.R. 2520) is based around state-based exchanges with a guaranteed issue provision and a mandate that all participating plans achieve benefit parity with the plans offered to members of Congress. There's nothing wrong with Angle buying insurance through an exchange but it's fair to point out that she's running to ensure that others don't get that same option.

Similarly, there's nothing wrong with Joe Miller having drawn upon Medicaid benefits in his past. However, the fact that he's more than happy to deny others the opportunities that were available to his family is distressing.

The Gov't. does not have the right to take money from me and give it to some guy that can not afford it because he is too lazy to get a job. If I want to give to charity for that purpose it is my choice. The liberal brain is screwed up. The constitution does not give the gov't the right to do what the liberals think it does. Idiots.

 

[RadiomanATL]

If you're being given more than you generated, where'd it come from?

Wealth redistribution and the very same too-big promises they keep ranting about whenever they scream about the unions ruining everything

But what if it is not more?

Then the righties have internal consistency in that particular case

So... do government workers ever receive more in wages/retirement than the total the surplus capital/value generated by their labour power during the course of their employment?

Ever?

I'm sure it happens.

On balance though, I bet it evens out pretty well.

For example, my father retired civil service (he was a bit higher than examples given on this board). When he "joined" the law was that he receives about 1/3 the amount of social security as a non-federal employee upon reaching the age of whatever-it-is for SS benefits. But he had to pay in the full amount, the same as a non-federal employee. The law did change, but unless he wanted his whole benefits package to "reset" and him lose his time in position, he had to elect to still receive only ~1/3 the amount upon reaching SS age. It was for new hires only, or for people who didn't mind a benefits "reset".

But he gets BC/BS for federal workers until he passes away.

So in my view, it kinda evens out. Although the ~1/3 payout chaps his ass a bit.

 

[AmericanFirst]

This is confusing. So now conservatives are supporting the multitude of benefits that government workers get?

Good, at least gov't workers work for those benefits, unlike those that do not and the obama admin. wants to give them health care anyway, idiots.

 

[JBeukema]

I wonder whether anyone's done the math on all such programs.

 

[RadiomanATL]

I wonder whether anyone's done the math on all such programs.

I think that it would be near impossible. Too many intangible variables.

 

[AmericanFirst]

The latest disgrace, you ask? Attacking a candidate because their husband EARNED a retirement package for working for the Government.

The claim? That some how this EARNED retirement package is exactly like supporting Obamacare. What next? Going to claim that every Government retiree and every military retiree are using Obamacare? And thus should support it?

The hypocricy is with a candidate who openly attacks the Governments ability to provide these services while she herself, benefits from them. The Government Healthcare plan she benefits from is the exact same plan that was offered as a public option.
What she wants for other Americans is completely opposite from what she benefits from. I got mine.....the hell with you

Exactly what liberals do.

 

[JBeukema]

I wonder whether anyone's done the math on all such programs.

I think that it would be near impossible. Too many intangible variables.

How so?

Can't prove they're of any value or can't keep track of the payments?


Take the amount of money the post office makes and subtract sales of boxes and such. Use Compare that to payout for all the delivery folk, drivers, and other such employees and see if it's in the black or the red.

Should work for everything save LEO, emergency services, and the military/intelligence- all of which we can surely agree deserve damned good treatment upon retirement.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Why do leftys have such a hard time understanding that the medical coverage that government workers (except politicians)receive are part of the wage package they EARN. It comes as part of the JOB. They rave a real problem understanding you have to WORK for the benefits you receive.

Because they are socialists, they want you under their control and that means not working for your own living, it is as simple as that.

 

[JBeukema]

AF doesn't seem to understand socialism.

Don't want you working for your own living? The how can you give according to your ability?

Over @ Acorn and Twin Oaks, people who refuse to contribute or told they must leave.

 

[RadiomanATL]

I wonder whether anyone's done the math on all such programs.

I think that it would be near impossible. Too many intangible variables.

How so?

Can't prove they're of any value or can't keep track of the payments?


Take the amount of money the post office makes and subtract sales of boxes and such. Use Compare that to payout for all the delivery folk, drivers, and other such employees and see if it's in the black or the red.

Should work for everything save LEO, emergency services, and the military/intelligence- all of which we can surely agree deserve damned good treatment upon retirement.

It would work for the post office, sure. Most of that is pretty cut and dried.

I was thinking of more along the lines of the military and military R&D, since that is the realm my father worked in. Thats my own prejudicial experiences coming through.

So it would work in certain realms, but not others.

 

[RadiomanATL]

I think that it would be near impossible. Too many intangible variables.

How so?

Can't prove they're of any value or can't keep track of the payments?


Take the amount of money the post office makes and subtract sales of boxes and such. Use Compare that to payout for all the delivery folk, drivers, and other such employees and see if it's in the black or the red.

Should work for everything save LEO, emergency services, and the military/intelligence- all of which we can surely agree deserve damned good treatment upon retirement.

It would work for the post office, sure. Most of that is pretty cut and dried.

I was thinking of more along the lines of the military and military R&D, since that is the realm my father worked in. Thats my own prejudicial experiences coming through.

So it would work in certain realms, but not others.

Also, while I have no numbers or anything to back it up, I think most federal civil service employees work for the DoD in some form or another. There's enough of them to throw all the data for civil service employees into a cocked hat.

 

[AmericanFirst]

The hypocricy is with a candidate who openly attacks the Governments ability to provide these services while she herself, benefits from them. The Government Healthcare plan she benefits from is the exact same plan that was offered as a public option.
What she wants for other Americans is completely opposite from what she benefits from. I got mine.....the hell with you

Once again for the slow and stupid, her Husband EARNED his retirement, it was not GIVEN to him. He worked for and EARNED it. Something you leftoids seem to have a problem grasping, as usual.

why, does the gvt give full medical as a retirement benefit for working 20 years in the gvt out of the 45 years one works, when no private employer offers such to their employees putting in 20 years and retiring at 40 years old? most in the private sector would NEVER EVER get their health care paid, for the rest of their and their wife's life, by a company they left at 40 years old....

my father retired USAF at 39, he's going to be 79 soon enough....that's 60 years of his and my mom's health care PAID by the gvt for 22 years of him working?

not that i want it taken from my parents...

but...
something's amiss....

First off as a retired gov't employee, I did not have, nor still do not have, full medical. I pay a good percentage of my premiums, which go up every year. So before you fart and say something stupid again, get the facts.

 

[AmericanFirst]

The lengths that the desperate Liberals will go to to try and tarnish their opponents. The latest disgrace, you ask? Attacking a candidate because their husband EARNED a retirement package for working for the Government.

The claim? That some how this EARNED retirement package is exactly like supporting Obamacare. What next? Going to claim that every Government retiree and every military retiree are using Obamacare? And thus should support it?

The further implication is that somehow this man, who EARNED a retirement package by WORKING for the Government long enough to RETIRE, is sucking off the Government tit. And that by being married to him and also being covered by his RETIREMENT package, he EARNED, the candidate is also sucking off the Government tit.

How much lower can they go in their desperate attempts to save themselves from rightfully PISSED off voters?

Who are you talking about?

Liberal idiot dimwits, who else.

 

[AmericanFirst]

why, does the gvt give full medical as a retirement benefit for working 20 years in the gvt out of the 45 years one works, when no private employer offers such to their employees putting in 20 years

I'm pretty sure the auto workers do.

after just 20 years with them?

i accept ret sgt's explanation of military personnel....it is valid and sound.

but what about civil service, the clerk in the unemployment office getting the same benefit as the military guy, after just 20 years.

She doesn't, she has to pay part of the premium out of her check.