UN vote, retaliation, settlements...violence

Coyote

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I came across this article and basically, it seems pretty disheartening for any sort of just peace.

I think it is very clear that the current Israeli government has had no little interest and no real intention of working towards a 2-state solution. It has been buying time creating new settlements, legalizing illegal settlements and quietly (or not so quietly) moving Palestinians out of prime areas.

Now, after the UN vote, it has decided to punish them which goes hand in hand with their tradition of collectively punishing the Palestinians when the world body goes against Israel or, when Palestinian terrorists act.

I think this is not good...polls are increasingly showing the Palestinians no longer have any hope for a 2-state solution, and more are thinking of armed resistance again. And this is the West Bank, not Gaza.

It's easy to blame the Palestinians, and I know what the arguments are: the Israeli's have no negotiating partner, the Palestinians are still committing terrorism, etc. - but what of Israel's role in perpetrating and excacerbating it, as in this? The Palestinians are damned whichever way they go - peace, to the UN or violence.


In doleful West Bank, UN vote brings little cheer to Palestinians


The passage of a UN Security Council Resolution condemning Israeli settlements on Friday has not seen masses of Palestinians taking to the streets in the West Bank to celebrate Israel’s diplomatic failure.Not even handfuls of Palestinians have come out to show their support.


While senior Palestinian leaders have talked up the passage of the UN measure as a historic achievement — an unprecedented Palestinian victory — they know that the resolution is toothless and limited in scope.


In theory, the lack of enthusiasm shown by most Palestinians should bring a sense of relief to the Israeli government: The UN’s bark has no bite and in a few weeks, a president who appears to be cut from the same cloth as the Israeli right will enter the White House, enabling Israel to do whatever it pleases.

The great threat of “two states for two peoples” has essentially disappeared, while the possibility of the annexation of portions of the West Bank has become more and more of a reality.


But the Israeli right should not count its chickens yet, for as Palestinian despair grows, so too does the possibility of a fresh outbreak of violence in the West Bank.



According to opinion polls recently carried out in the West Bank, the majority of Palestinians no longer believe in the two-state solution (65 percent said such a solution is not relevant) and many Palestinians support a return to armed struggle against Israel.


...As if all this were not enough, Army Radio reported Sunday morning that Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman ordered the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories to end all meetings with civilian and political officials from the Palestinian Authority, though security coordination will continue.


Liberman, who until now had sat on the sidelines while the rest of Israel’s ministers fell over themselves calling for the most incendiary form of retaliation to be taken following the Security Council resolution, outdid the rest of them instantly.


In contrast to Friday’s passage of the resolution in New York, Liberman’s order has implications on the day-to-day life of every Palestinian in the West Bank.


While the cessation of political contacts has no relevance to COGAT — since it does not deal with political issues — it will have an effect on civilian matters, including on projects such as electricity, water, sewage, environmental protection, trash collection, currency, work permits and numerous other fields, where coordination with Israel is needed.



 
That aside, Once should never trust the words of Avigdor Lieberman or take him as any indication for anything. The man changes opinions like socks. He's irrelevant.
 
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That aside, Once should never trust the words of Avigdor Lieberman or take him as any indication for anything. The man changes opinions like socks. He's irrelevant.


He's certainly acting harshly and punatively - and provocatively.
 
That aside, Once should never trust the words of Avigdor Lieberman or take him as any indication for anything. The man changes opinions like socks. He's irrelevant.


He's certainly acting harshly and punatively - and provocatively.

If it was only him being harsh it was ok, but he changes opinions based on the reporter interviewing him and the people he talks to at that pricise moment. If he was consistent with his 'harshness', then maybe it would have been undesrtandable, "that's just how the guy operates", but it's more dangerous when you change points of view all the time, and once you've got 8 millions to keep safe, and doing that, it's even more disturbing.
 
Both annexation and two state solution are not realistic, at this point.

What's unrealistic about annexation?

Which parts to annex, and what will be the legal status of the situation.

I agree with what people say, that Netanyahu's government is the most radical due to how he manages the settlements.

Settlemnts were all the time, While he (Netanyahu) was the "first" leader to openly 'support' the idea of settling in Judea and Samaria, he was one of the firsts to also rise up and say "I now freeze settlements".

Settlements' development ceased for 9 months, houses in developing got 'stuck'. There was no peace process during that time. Why didn't the Palestinians reach out during those months? Bibi saw that nothing major happened, so after a period of time of almost a year, he told Abu Mazen, "tough break, dude", and the buildings of certain places began again. So Abu Mazen went international about "Israel's crimes". Now that's not playing nice...

But that's not what I was trying to say in this post. You folks need to understand something. The last big "compromise" of Israel was in 2005. A few thousands were evicted from Gush Kattif. It seemed like a peaceful "there and then" step, but only those who lived in Israel saw closely how that disangagement plan tore apart the Israeli society. Not even a month followed from the expulsion that Hamas began launching rockets on Israel. That was a missed opportunity. The Palestinian could have seen the one sided step as an arm reached for peace. Instead they chose to see it as a sign of defeat, "we overcame the enemy and made it escape Gaza".

Those were few thousands ervicted. Now we have Judea and Samaria. Judea and Samaria has about 300,000 Jews in it. Deciding upon "disangaging" has the potential of causing a civil war in Israel. Think I'm exaggerating? well, I'm not. As much as the media want to say it isn't so, no normal Israeli will agree to the expulsion of 300,000 people from J&S, not unless we're 100% sure it will bring everlasting peace. Which is not the case.

On the other hand, annexing is not possible. Areas A+B are not separatable from area C, you cannot draw a line and clearly say which villages you take and which you leave for future Palestinian state. And the world will bark even if we try doing so. The world is fixated with the two states solution, they don't really give us a choise here, even though they try and fool us about it. So Netanyahu won't evict the residents, out of fear of inside conflict, and no Israeli wants us to face that, and he won't annex, because let's admit it, it's impossible snd the world will skin us alive; So the status quo is the only real remaining solution, which is in many times- easier.

Only problems is that our graveyards get filled during this "no solution" situation.
 
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Both annexation and two state solution are not realistic, at this point.
what do you think should happen?


I heard a friend of mine saying that the most logical solution will be to tell the Palestinians- We take Ma'ale Adumim and areas surrounding Jerusalem under Israeli law and annex them. Any large settlements close to Jerusalem will fall under that.

We tell the Israelis that in that case they have two options, or stay in the settlements or return to Israel's 'borders'. Most of them will choose to return. If that works out we give the Palestinians a month or two to establish a state in West Bank and Gaza, a peacful government, and that is the state they will have. "Palestine" will be a state, and that means that if even a firework is launched from Gaza, it will give Israel a legitimate option to turn it into a Parking lot.

"forsakened" places like Jordan valley will have a temporal internation supervision, per Israel agreement, of course, until we can compromise with the Palestinian what to do.

Jerusalem will be open to all religions and the Jews will have full acess to the Temple Mount, as well as all other holy places.

The Arab Israelis with blue ID will have to swear loyalty to Israel, and will all serve in the IDF, if they don't accept it, they will move to the Palestinian state.
 
of course, it's not even close to an ideal solution, but it sounds like a good start.

It's hardly ideal because we don't know what will be the future of places like Kiryat Arba and Ariel, but.... I don't see how otherwise it can work
 
Coyote, please show me where the PA, and especially Abu Mazen has pushed for peace in public; in BOTH English AND Arabic. He hasn't. And that, IMHO is the problem.

Do I agree wholeheartedly with settlements? Maybe not, but IMHO Israel has only gone forward with them in retaliation for Palestinian violence.

Lipush seems to have some very good ideas, ideas unfortunately that will never come to fruition. Why? Because show me when Abu Mazen has pushed for peace in public; in BOTH English AND Arabic. He hasn't.
 
7LIkXgd.png


Pope to host Palestinian president Abbas on January 14
 
While senior Palestinian leaders have talked up the passage of the UN measure as a historic achievement — an unprecedented Palestinian victory — they know that the resolution is toothless and limited in scope.
Indeed, there are already piles of UN resolutions sitting around collecting dust.

Why get excited about another one.

It will, however, be another item in the BDS toolbox. BDS is the only chance to kick anything loose. The world politicians are just sitting around with their thumb up their ass.
 
While senior Palestinian leaders have talked up the passage of the UN measure as a historic achievement — an unprecedented Palestinian victory — they know that the resolution is toothless and limited in scope.
Indeed, there are already piles of UN resolutions sitting around collecting dust.

Why get excited about another one.

It will, however, be another item in the BDS toolbox. BDS is the only chance to kick anything loose. The world politicians are just sitting around with their thumb up their ass.






BDS is dead in the water because too many extremists have jumped on board and used it as a racist tool
 
I came across this article and basically, it seems pretty disheartening for any sort of just peace.

I think it is very clear that the current Israeli government has had no little interest and no real intention of working towards a 2-state solution. It has been buying time creating new settlements, legalizing illegal settlements and quietly (or not so quietly) moving Palestinians out of prime areas.

Now, after the UN vote, it has decided to punish them which goes hand in hand with their tradition of collectively punishing the Palestinians when the world body goes against Israel or, when Palestinian terrorists act.

I think this is not good...polls are increasingly showing the Palestinians no longer have any hope for a 2-state solution, and more are thinking of armed resistance again. And this is the West Bank, not Gaza.

It's easy to blame the Palestinians, and I know what the arguments are: the Israeli's have no negotiating partner, the Palestinians are still committing terrorism, etc. - but what of Israel's role in perpetrating and excacerbating it, as in this? The Palestinians are damned whichever way they go - peace, to the UN or violence.


In doleful West Bank, UN vote brings little cheer to Palestinians


The passage of a UN Security Council Resolution condemning Israeli settlements on Friday has not seen masses of Palestinians taking to the streets in the West Bank to celebrate Israel’s diplomatic failure.Not even handfuls of Palestinians have come out to show their support.


While senior Palestinian leaders have talked up the passage of the UN measure as a historic achievement — an unprecedented Palestinian victory — they know that the resolution is toothless and limited in scope.


In theory, the lack of enthusiasm shown by most Palestinians should bring a sense of relief to the Israeli government: The UN’s bark has no bite and in a few weeks, a president who appears to be cut from the same cloth as the Israeli right will enter the White House, enabling Israel to do whatever it pleases.

The great threat of “two states for two peoples” has essentially disappeared, while the possibility of the annexation of portions of the West Bank has become more and more of a reality.


But the Israeli right should not count its chickens yet, for as Palestinian despair grows, so too does the possibility of a fresh outbreak of violence in the West Bank.



According to opinion polls recently carried out in the West Bank, the majority of Palestinians no longer believe in the two-state solution (65 percent said such a solution is not relevant) and many Palestinians support a return to armed struggle against Israel.


...As if all this were not enough, Army Radio reported Sunday morning that Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman ordered the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories to end all meetings with civilian and political officials from the Palestinian Authority, though security coordination will continue.


Liberman, who until now had sat on the sidelines while the rest of Israel’s ministers fell over themselves calling for the most incendiary form of retaliation to be taken following the Security Council resolution, outdid the rest of them instantly.


In contrast to Friday’s passage of the resolution in New York, Liberman’s order has implications on the day-to-day life of every Palestinian in the West Bank.


While the cessation of political contacts has no relevance to COGAT — since it does not deal with political issues — it will have an effect on civilian matters, including on projects such as electricity, water, sewage, environmental protection, trash collection, currency, work permits and numerous other fields, where coordination with Israel is needed.


 
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I came across this article and basically, it seems pretty disheartening for any sort of just peace.

I think it is very clear that the current Israeli government has had no little interest and no real intention of working towards a 2-state solution. It has been buying time creating new settlements, legalizing illegal settlements and quietly (or not so quietly) moving Palestinians out of prime areas.

Now, after the UN vote, it has decided to punish them which goes hand in hand with their tradition of collectively punishing the Palestinians when the world body goes against Israel or, when Palestinian terrorists act.

I think this is not good...polls are increasingly showing the Palestinians no longer have any hope for a 2-state solution, and more are thinking of armed resistance again. And this is the West Bank, not Gaza.

It's easy to blame the Palestinians, and I know what the arguments are: the Israeli's have no negotiating partner, the Palestinians are still committing terrorism, etc. - but what of Israel's role in perpetrating and excacerbating it, as in this? The Palestinians are damned whichever way they go - peace, to the UN or violence.


In doleful West Bank, UN vote brings little cheer to Palestinians


The passage of a UN Security Council Resolution condemning Israeli settlements on Friday has not seen masses of Palestinians taking to the streets in the West Bank to celebrate Israel’s diplomatic failure.Not even handfuls of Palestinians have come out to show their support.


While senior Palestinian leaders have talked up the passage of the UN measure as a historic achievement — an unprecedented Palestinian victory — they know that the resolution is toothless and limited in scope.


In theory, the lack of enthusiasm shown by most Palestinians should bring a sense of relief to the Israeli government: The UN’s bark has no bite and in a few weeks, a president who appears to be cut from the same cloth as the Israeli right will enter the White House, enabling Israel to do whatever it pleases.

The great threat of “two states for two peoples” has essentially disappeared, while the possibility of the annexation of portions of the West Bank has become more and more of a reality.


But the Israeli right should not count its chickens yet, for as Palestinian despair grows, so too does the possibility of a fresh outbreak of violence in the West Bank.



According to opinion polls recently carried out in the West Bank, the majority of Palestinians no longer believe in the two-state solution (65 percent said such a solution is not relevant) and many Palestinians support a return to armed struggle against Israel.


...As if all this were not enough, Army Radio reported Sunday morning that Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman ordered the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories to end all meetings with civilian and political officials from the Palestinian Authority, though security coordination will continue.


Liberman, who until now had sat on the sidelines while the rest of Israel’s ministers fell over themselves calling for the most incendiary form of retaliation to be taken following the Security Council resolution, outdid the rest of them instantly.


In contrast to Friday’s passage of the resolution in New York, Liberman’s order has implications on the day-to-day life of every Palestinian in the West Bank.


While the cessation of political contacts has no relevance to COGAT — since it does not deal with political issues — it will have an effect on civilian matters, including on projects such as electricity, water, sewage, environmental protection, trash collection, currency, work permits and numerous other fields, where coordination with Israel is needed.




Welcome back handsome! :banana:
 

While senior Palestinian leaders have talked up the passage of the UN measure as a historic achievement —
an unprecedented Palestinian victory — they know that the resolution is toothless and limited in scope.
Indeed, there are already piles of UN resolutions sitting around collecting dust.
Why get excited about another one. .............

Obama's radical change to over 60 years of American policy toward Israel [not castng veto at UN Sec Council] is a game changer ....
Make international blessing of an invasion of Israel much more likely .... in fact, a UN blessed Russian led invasion of Israel is a certainty.

I believe Obama regime is taking steps to contribute tanks and aircraft to this invasion.

Tanks already given to Egypt and tanks recently shipped to Europe [and from Europe the American public has no way to know where they are headed]
 
While senior Palestinian leaders have talked up the passage of the UN measure as a historic achievement —
an unprecedented Palestinian victory — they know that the resolution is toothless and limited in scope.
Indeed, there are already piles of UN resolutions sitting around collecting dust.
Why get excited about another one. .............

Obama's radical change to over 60 years of American policy toward Israel [not castng veto at UN Sec Council] is a game changer ....
Make international blessing of an invasion of Israel much more likely .... in fact, a UN blessed Russian led invasion of Israel is a certainty.

I believe Obama regime is taking steps to contribute tanks and aircraft to this invasion.

Tanks already given to Egypt and tanks recently shipped to Europe [and from Europe the American public has no way to know where they are headed]

I seriously doubt that Russia will invade Israel. In fact, Bibi and Putin have been friendly with each other.
 

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