U.S. Marines To Investigate Video of Soldiers Urinating on Corpses

[High_Gravity]

Several things here.........

Yes. Our military is highly trained and very efficient. Yes. Our military is trained to follow the Geneva conventions and other rules when it comes to war.

These Marines pissing on the corpses of people they've just killed goes against good order and discipline, as well as shows them to be lacking in a certain amount of discipline.

Combine that with the fact that what they did is now posted on YouTube and is visible to the world, it reflects BADLY on the rest of the Marines and the US Military as a result, because it tells the world that our military is just a bunch of undisciplined thugs.

Me personally? As a 20 year U.S. Navy veteran who has been in 4 combat zones, what these Marines did was not right and they should be prosecuted, not only for what they did, but for the unwanted attention that it has generated.

According to the news this morning, they've figured out the unit and are fast closing in on who these Marines were. I hope they are given a courts martial and are immediately discharged with a BCD or lower.

That's probably what's going to happen, this is all over the web now and heads have to roll. Me personally I am more curious about these Marines, how many deployments have they been on? alot of these guys have been on multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and are stressed the fuck out from all the combat they are seeing.

That is why I said courts martial, so that kind of evidence can also be taken into consideration.

But after the black eye that they've given my military, I don't want 'em to be a part of it anymore.

I don't know man, after 10 years of this war I think its starting to change us. If I read a story like this before 9/11 I would have found it absolutely horrible, now 10 years into this war I see this video and can hardly blink, and I can even understand why the Marines would do this, although I do agree it is wrong. Things like and the stories about the Air Force hacking off body parts to make bodies fit into caskets, dropping off cremated Soldiers remains into garbage dumps etc, it just tells me we are losing our humanity with this war, these are all things that would absolutely horrify us befor 9/11, now we can read this, maybe condemn it, and than go about our day like nothing. It's fucked up.

 

[007]

The only thing they did wrong was film it.

War is hell.

 

[MikeK]

Several things here.........

Yes. Our military is highly trained and very efficient. Yes. Our military is trained to follow the Geneva conventions and other rules when it comes to war.

These Marines pissing on the corpses of people they've just killed goes against good order and discipline, as well as shows them to be lacking in a certain amount of discipline.

Combine that with the fact that what they did is now posted on YouTube and is visible to the world, it reflects BADLY on the rest of the Marines and the US Military as a result, because it tells the world that our military is just a bunch of undisciplined thugs.

Me personally? As a 20 year U.S. Navy veteran who has been in 4 combat zones, what these Marines did was not right and they should be prosecuted, not only for what they did, but for the unwanted attention that it has generated.

According to the news this morning, they've figured out the unit and are fast closing in on who these Marines were. I hope they are given a courts martial and are immediately discharged with a BCD or lower.

I'm not proud of what these guys did, either. But some consideration must be given to the circumstances our government has exposed our troops to in the Middle East for longer than World War Two. The best term to apply to what is and has been going on over there is organized madness.

It's not as if these troops were flown directly from their home towns and normal lifestyles into that environment within a 24 hour time frame. Some of them have been there for years, living and breathing it. I don't know about you, but because of my relatively sane daily experience I am incapable of understanding the kind of emotional pressures these snipers have had to deal with for weeks, months, some of them years.

I was in the Marine Corps. Fortunately during peacetime. But I know what Parris Island does to the mind and I am quite familiar with the primary objective of Marine Corps training after boot camp and ITR, which is to transform the normal personality into one which is perfectly comfortable with the motivation to kill. As I've later learned, and as any behaviorist will attest, that is a rather basic definition of insanity.

These men have been killing other humans, presumably their designated enemies on a daily basis, possibly for months. Imagine doing that. Now try to imagine what thinking of other humans only as targets would do to your personality.

Pissing on corpses is no big deal to men whose daily experience is producing corpses. And those officers who will prosecute these Marines need to be mindful of that. What those Marines did is crazy. Because they are crazy. But they didn't start out that way.

 

[whitehall]

I guess we are lucky that it was almost impossible for a member of the Military to make a movie much less take a photograph of combat situations during WW2 but then again it wouldn't be any big deal to piss on the bodies of Nazis or Japs back then.

 

[High_Gravity]

I guess we are lucky that it was almost impossible for a member of the Military to make a movie much less take a photograph of combat situations during WW2 but then again it wouldn't be any big deal to piss on the bodies of Nazis or Japs back then.

I am sure the troops back in WW2 did their share of "pissing" and god knows what else, its just that none of it was recorded plus we are much more PC now than we were back than, now we are trying to "win the hearts and minds" of the people we are fighting against.

 

[MikeK]

I guess we are lucky that it was almost impossible for a member of the Military to make a movie much less take a photograph of combat situations during WW2 but then again it wouldn't be any big deal to piss on the bodies of Nazis or Japs back then.

The situational difference being our Nation was at war with the Japanese and Germans and we all had cause to fear those enemies. And because fear is the essential precursor of hatred all of us hated the Japs and the Germans as much as our troops did. Whereas the enemies of today's troops in the Middle East, much like the enemies of our troops in Vietnam, are mere abstractions to us here at home. We have no cause to fear them. To us these pajama-clad abstractions are equivalent to characters in an adventure novel or a movie. And the public indignation which will flow from this pissing incident will derive from equally casual piety.

Of course, what these Marines did was done in our names. And that is true because we allowed the likes of George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Colin Powell to get over on us and bring it about. There is just as much justification for pissing on the corpses of those persons, whoever and whatever they were, as there is for our being in that country in the first place. And whose fault is it that we are there?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Several things here.........

Yes. Our military is highly trained and very efficient. Yes. Our military is trained to follow the Geneva conventions and other rules when it comes to war.

These Marines pissing on the corpses of people they've just killed goes against good order and discipline, as well as shows them to be lacking in a certain amount of discipline.

Combine that with the fact that what they did is now posted on YouTube and is visible to the world, it reflects BADLY on the rest of the Marines and the US Military as a result, because it tells the world that our military is just a bunch of undisciplined thugs.

Me personally? As a 20 year U.S. Navy veteran who has been in 4 combat zones, what these Marines did was not right and they should be prosecuted, not only for what they did, but for the unwanted attention that it has generated.

According to the news this morning, they've figured out the unit and are fast closing in on who these Marines were. I hope they are given a courts martial and are immediately discharged with a BCD or lower.

I'm not proud of what these guys did, either. But some consideration must be given to the circumstances our government has exposed our troops to in the Middle East for longer than World War Two. The best term to apply to what is and has been going on over there is organized madness.

It's not as if these troops were flown directly from their home towns and normal lifestyles into that environment within a 24 hour time frame. Some of them have been there for years, living and breathing it. I don't know about you, but because of my relatively sane daily experience I am incapable of understanding the kind of emotional pressures these snipers have had to deal with for weeks, months, some of them years.

I was in the Marine Corps. Fortunately during peacetime. But I know what Parris Island does to the mind and I am quite familiar with the primary objective of Marine Corps training after boot camp and ITR, which is to transform the normal personality into one which is perfectly comfortable with the motivation to kill. As I've later learned, and as any behaviorist will attest, that is a rather basic definition of insanity.

These men have been killing other humans, presumably their designated enemies on a daily basis, possibly for months. Imagine doing that. Now try to imagine what thinking of other humans only as targets would do to your personality.

Pissing on corpses is no big deal to men whose daily experience is producing corpses. And those officers who will prosecute these Marines need to be mindful of that. What those Marines did is crazy. Because they are crazy. But they didn't start out that way.

Sorry, but to my way of thinking it shows a SEVERE lack of discipline and order. I don't care what kind of situations they are thrown into, they should keep their military bearing.

Yes, their deployment schedule should be taken into account, yes, those Marines should also be given psych evaluations which should also be taken into account.

But even with those excuses, it still doesn't wash.

And, I consider this to be a WORSE fuckup than Abu Grahib, because at Abu Grahib, the people there were just a bunch of reservists who probably didn't know any better, but these Marines? No. They are active duty AND probably get the same Code of Conduct briefing that everyone else in the military gets annually.

Like I said, give 'em a courts martial (Leon Panetta even stated he wanted to be part of the investigation so it will probably be a General Courts Martial), take the evidence into account (hey.........if part of it was stress induced, it could give the military a better way to deal with the troops) and then kick 'em the fuck out of my military.

 

[Dr Grump]

Anybody who doesn't think that these guys are douches, are douches. The American military is something that others should look up to, not down at..

 

[ABikerSailor]

Anybody who doesn't think that these guys are douches are douches. The American military is something that others should look up to, not down at..

I don't think these guys are douches, I FUCKING KNOW IT!!!!

Which is why I want them to face a courts martial and get the fuck out of my military.

 

[old navy]

These Marines are fucking idiots.

 

[Ringel05]

Another in the win column for the Taliban and their allies in the propaganda war.

 

[The Gadfly]

Several things here.........

Yes. Our military is highly trained and very efficient. Yes. Our military is trained to follow the Geneva conventions and other rules when it comes to war.

These Marines pissing on the corpses of people they've just killed goes against good order and discipline, as well as shows them to be lacking in a certain amount of discipline.

Combine that with the fact that what they did is now posted on YouTube and is visible to the world, it reflects BADLY on the rest of the Marines and the US Military as a result, because it tells the world that our military is just a bunch of undisciplined thugs.

Me personally? As a 20 year U.S. Navy veteran who has been in 4 combat zones, what these Marines did was not right and they should be prosecuted, not only for what they did, but for the unwanted attention that it has generated.

According to the news this morning, they've figured out the unit and are fast closing in on who these Marines were. I hope they are given a courts martial and are immediately discharged with a BCD or lower.

I'm not proud of what these guys did, either. But some consideration must be given to the circumstances our government has exposed our troops to in the Middle East for longer than World War Two. The best term to apply to what is and has been going on over there is organized madness.

It's not as if these troops were flown directly from their home towns and normal lifestyles into that environment within a 24 hour time frame. Some of them have been there for years, living and breathing it. I don't know about you, but because of my relatively sane daily experience I am incapable of understanding the kind of emotional pressures these snipers have had to deal with for weeks, months, some of them years.

I was in the Marine Corps. Fortunately during peacetime. But I know what Parris Island does to the mind and I am quite familiar with the primary objective of Marine Corps training after boot camp and ITR, which is to transform the normal personality into one which is perfectly comfortable with the motivation to kill. As I've later learned, and as any behaviorist will attest, that is a rather basic definition of insanity.

These men have been killing other humans, presumably their designated enemies on a daily basis, possibly for months. Imagine doing that. Now try to imagine what thinking of other humans only as targets would do to your personality.

Pissing on corpses is no big deal to men whose daily experience is producing corpses. And those officers who will prosecute these Marines need to be mindful of that. What those Marines did is crazy. Because they are crazy. But they didn't start out that way.

Sorry, but to my way of thinking it shows a SEVERE lack of discipline and order. I don't care what kind of situations they are thrown into, they should keep their military bearing.

Yes, their deployment schedule should be taken into account, yes, those Marines should also be given psych evaluations which should also be taken into account.

But even with those excuses, it still doesn't wash.

And, I consider this to be a WORSE fuckup than Abu Grahib, because at Abu Grahib, the people there were just a bunch of reservists who probably didn't know any better, but these Marines? No. They are active duty AND probably get the same Code of Conduct briefing that everyone else in the military gets annually.

Like I said, give 'em a courts martial (Leon Panetta even stated he wanted to be part of the investigation so it will probably be a General Courts Martial), take the evidence into account (hey.........if part of it was stress induced, it could give the military a better way to deal with the troops) and then kick 'em the fuck out of my military.

Can I ask you just one question? Have YOU ever been in infantry combat? I ask, because it seems to me that you are passing judgement from the point of view of someone who has never had to kill an enemy, on a daily basis, up close and personal, where you can see their faces. Ever slit a man's throat? Ever stick a bayonet in someone? Ever looked at someone through a scope, put the crosshairs right in the middle of that face, and pulled the trigger? I have; and that is what these men are doing, every day. When you do that, you hate the enemy; you fear him, you despise him, and in your eyes, he is not a human being, just a target. I don't recall, when I was in Vietnam, getting any orders about pissing on dead Cong or NVA, and I don't recall any mention of or lectures on "human rights violations". About the most I remember is being told to "watch it" if and when there were any reporters around. I do remember "death cards" being placed on enemy bodies for them to find, among other things; we wanted to let them know who did it. I apologize for absolutely NONE of that. I hated the nasty little sonsofbitches, killed as many as I could and would have gladly killed more. My men felt the same way, and whatever they did, they were smart enough not to document it, and I was smart enough to not "see" it.

I suppose the standards are different now, and I doubt I'd fit in with the new, PC, sensitive to civilian and non-combatant military sensibilities military. I understand they are proud to have gotten rid of us old "throat slitters" and maybe it's for the best. All I know, is that expecting a grunt to turn his feelings about his enemy on and off like flipping a switch, does not square with the human emotional factors inherent in ground combat, in my humble opinion. It's OK though; I'm sure the permanent civilians and staff officers and others who have never been shot at, know a lot more about infantry combat than I ever will.

For what it's worth, I think I'd confiscate those video cameras for the duration, and give those guys a reprimand and a week's worth of extra duty, for poor judgment in taping something which should have remained private. Of course, in this environment, they will probably get canned anyway, just to placate public opinion. One more thing; what article of the UCMJ prescribes the punishment for pissing on an enemy corpse? I'm not sure I've ever seen that one, but I'm sure some creative JAG officer can find something.

 

[Sunshine]

"Islam gives values and respect to every human being," regardless of which religion the individual follows, said Islamic scholar Mawlawi Enayatullah Baligh. "The value and respect is the same for an alive person and a dead body. Even the body of your enemy in the battleground is respectable in Islam."

Marines ID two of the men in urination video - CNN.com

They might try telling that to Nick Berg's family:

Nicholas Evan Berg
Born April 2, 1978(1978-04-02)
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
Died May 7, 2004(2004-05-07) (aged 26)

Nicholas Evan "Nick" Berg (April 2, 1978 – May 7, 2004) was an American businessman who went to Iraq after the US invasion of Iraq. He was abducted and later beheaded according to a video released in May 2004 by Islamist militants. The CIA claimed that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi personally beheaded Berg.[1]

Nick Berg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Firehorse]

They may have been OWS people, saw that pissing on things other then toilets gets one called a 'hero' and looked up to and thought 'WTF, maybe I can be a hero pissing here'

 

[The Gadfly]

"Islam gives values and respect to every human being," regardless of which religion the individual follows, said Islamic scholar Mawlawi Enayatullah Baligh. "The value and respect is the same for an alive person and a dead body. Even the body of your enemy in the battleground is respectable in Islam."

Marines ID two of the men in urination video - CNN.com

They might try telling that to Nick Berg's family:

Nicholas Evan Berg
Born April 2, 1978(1978-04-02)
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
Died May 7, 2004(2004-05-07) (aged 26)

Nicholas Evan "Nick" Berg (April 2, 1978 – May 7, 2004) was an American businessman who went to Iraq after the US invasion of Iraq. He was abducted and later beheaded according to a video released in May 2004 by Islamist militants. The CIA claimed that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi personally beheaded Berg.[1]

Nick Berg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So do Buddhists, which most Vietnamese are. Didn't seem to have much effect on how they treated OUR dead, or anyone they captured. And people wonder why we were inclined to reciprocate..... Once upon a time, we replied to savages in the language they seemed to understand. How terribly insensitive of us! /sarcasm

 

[Sunshine]

A stern talking to is definitely in order.

And nothing more!

I say



WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK??

If thats all they did... good for them

Agree

I see this two ways. We send people off to kill other people, but we can't urinate on their corpse, which most likely was done by these Marines to "psych out" some nearby enemy supporters watching them.

We can also look at this just as the Marine Corps spokesman stated, that it does not reflect the core values that are held. In other words, discipline, and the perception that we are better than the enemy, must be maintained.

I would give them a good talking to for being dumb by getting filmed, then order them to do better in the future. No extra duty assigned as a consequence.

Cameras should not be allowed and reporters should not be embedded. I know they must have felt like this was a real victory for them, but do our fighting forces really know how little support they can have on the home front? I recall Vietnam. Vividly.

So?

So mote it be.

I see this two ways. We send people off to kill other people, but we can't urinate on their corpse, which most likely was done by these Marines to "psych out" some nearby enemy supporters watching them.

[...]

"Psych out" What exactly does that mean?

Make em want to kill more Americans I would think to be the outcome.

Projection. It makes YOU want it to make them want to kill more Americans.

Several things here.........

Yes. Our military is highly trained and very efficient. Yes. Our military is trained to follow the Geneva conventions and other rules when it comes to war.

These Marines pissing on the corpses of people they've just killed goes against good order and discipline, as well as shows them to be lacking in a certain amount of discipline.

Combine that with the fact that what they did is now posted on YouTube and is visible to the world, it reflects BADLY on the rest of the Marines and the US Military as a result, because it tells the world that our military is just a bunch of undisciplined thugs.

Me personally? As a 20 year U.S. Navy veteran who has been in 4 combat zones, what these Marines did was not right and they should be prosecuted, not only for what they did, but for the unwanted attention that it has generated.

According to the news this morning, they've figured out the unit and are fast closing in on who these Marines were. I hope they are given a courts martial and are immediately discharged with a BCD or lower.

That's probably what's going to happen, this is all over the web now and heads have to roll. Me personally I am more curious about these Marines, how many deployments have they been on? alot of these guys have been on multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and are stressed the fuck out from all the combat they are seeing.

So you would decapitate someone for pissing on a corpse?

.

 

[Sunshine]

"Islam gives values and respect to every human being," regardless of which religion the individual follows, said Islamic scholar Mawlawi Enayatullah Baligh. "The value and respect is the same for an alive person and a dead body. Even the body of your enemy in the battleground is respectable in Islam."

Marines ID two of the men in urination video - CNN.com

They might try telling that to Nick Berg's family:

Nicholas Evan Berg
Born April 2, 1978(1978-04-02)
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
Died May 7, 2004(2004-05-07) (aged 26)

Nicholas Evan "Nick" Berg (April 2, 1978 – May 7, 2004) was an American businessman who went to Iraq after the US invasion of Iraq. He was abducted and later beheaded according to a video released in May 2004 by Islamist militants. The CIA claimed that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi personally beheaded Berg.[1]

Nick Berg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So do Buddhists, which most Vietnamese are. Didn't seem to have much effect on how they treated OUR dead, or anyone they captured. And people wonder why we were inclined to reciprocate..... Once upon a time, we replied to savages in the language they seemed to understand. How terribly insensitive of us! /sarcasm

I am Vietnam era. Believe me, I know!

 

[old navy]

One more thing; what article of the UCMJ prescribes the punishment for pissing on an enemy corpse? I'm not sure I've ever seen that one, but I'm sure some creative JAG officer can find something.

They will probably be charged under Article 134 of the UCMJ.

 

[Sunshine]

I only see one problem with this whole situation...if your going to do something stupid don't record it, and if you do record it, definitely don't let it make its way to youtube.

Young soldiers have trouble separating killing from emotion. To bring themselves to a point where they are able to take the life of another human being, they have to dehumanize the individual. This is done in a variety of ways, starting in basic training, and continuing after they get to their unit. Right or wrong, it helps these young men cope with what they are doing.

Those who have been in combat know that the humor which emerges from it is dark and twisted. This is done out of necessity, because the norms and standards of civilized society don't hold up to the horrors of war. So things like this happen. I hate to break it to the armchair generals out there, but when you send 19 year old kids to a place like this, and train them to kill efficiently and without remorse, you cant expect them to turn around and treat their "targets" as human.

I'm not excusing it by any means, what I'm saying is that the civilian world (and the non-combat arms side of the military for that matter) is simply getting a glimpse into the dark mind of a young Infantryman. I'm not saying that all of us are like that, or that we have all done this. What I am saying is that your standards of civilization and humanity would be a serious impediment to the goal of "locating, closing with, and neutralizing the enemy".

So, speaking as a former young Infantryman myself, the American public should take this as a chance to see the kind of emotional angst that these young men go through. These are your sons, and friends. Instead of condemning the act, consider what they have been through that would bring them to do it. Just imagine the frustration of losing a friend to an IED, and knowing that you possess the ability to unleash the fury of God himself upon the attacker, but he is nowhere to be found. Then, when you finally catch up to the bad guy, the bomb maker who has killed your friends and plagued your nightmares for months, do you really believe you would treat his corpse with all the respect of a saint?

I've never been in combat. But I've worked 23 years in a field that is filled with death and violence, and the worst of humankind. Gallow humor is how we deal with thing. Remember M*A*S*H? Everyone thought it OH so cool. But the reality is it is OH so much worse. I would never talk the talk with a non nurse, or even a student nurse before a certain point.

 

[Sunshine]

That's probably what's going to happen, this is all over the web now and heads have to roll. Me personally I am more curious about these Marines, how many deployments have they been on? alot of these guys have been on multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and are stressed the fuck out from all the combat they are seeing.

That is why I said courts martial, so that kind of evidence can also be taken into consideration.

But after the black eye that they've given my military, I don't want 'em to be a part of it anymore.

I don't know man, after 10 years of this war I think its starting to change us. If I read a story like this before 9/11 I would have found it absolutely horrible, now 10 years into this war I see this video and can hardly blink, and I can even understand why the Marines would do this, although I do agree it is wrong. Things like and the stories about the Air Force hacking off body parts to make bodies fit into caskets, dropping off cremated Soldiers remains into garbage dumps etc, it just tells me we are losing our humanity with this war, these are all things that would absolutely horrify us befor 9/11, now we can read this, maybe condemn it, and than go about our day like nothing. It's fucked up.

I don't agree. Nurses and doctors see horrible things every day. We deal by using black humor, but we don't lose our humanity. And I think if you follow me, I stand up for what I believe to be the right thing. I've taken plenty of hits on here for it too and not posted one single whine thread!

We are at war. It would seem the enemy doesn't have the technology to do to our fighting men what they do to themselves unknowing, of course, that there are so many Americans who are agaisnt them.

Cameras shouldn't have been in Abu Graibe and they shouldn't be where these guys are!