U.S. attorney general opens criminal probe of Gulf oil spill

[sangha]

I will repeat

Do you start an after action report while an incident is still happening? Do you conduct an autopsy while the patient is still dying? Do you start having police and investigators grill the doctor about possible mistakes and criminality while they are still in the process of trying to save the life of and comfort the patient?? Do you start the arson investigation before the fire is out and all information can be gathered? Does the presence of investigators, interviewing, digging into information, etc help the finding of a solution?.... No.... all that you suggest does is changes focus away from the problem at hand...

I will repeat - In each of those situations, the concerned parties do NOT wait until the problem is solved before taking action.

And once again you fail to provide any support for your claim that investigating will somehow "change the focus away from the problem at hand". You can't even stand up and support your own ideas. All you can do is mindlessly repeat them

Please show where there is evidence of a 'perp'

Asked an answered several times.

Violations of cease fire happened continually before the continuation of Iraq hostilities.... the violations of cease-fire were thoroughly noted and agreed upon by multiple sources including the intel community and all levels of numerous government agencies and government representatives

Please read the resolution, before you make yourself look more like an ignorant winger than you have already shown

And again I'll ask - Do you have the cojones to clearly state that we didnt invade Iraq because of his non-existent links to Al Queda and his non-existent WMD's or will you continue to cowardly hide behind "violations of a cease fire agreement"?

Oh wait, you already answered that one!!

I've never seem someone so afraid to defend his own words. You claim that investigating will "change the focus" but you're afraid to explain how that works. You claim that we invaded Iraq because of cease fire violations and deny it was because of WMD's or Al Queda but you shiver in fear at the idea of explaining what those violations were.

Your fear of defending your own words has put you in the ridiculous position of arguing that the police and firefighters will delay a criminal investigation until the victim recovers or the fire is put out.

I solve problems for a living and have probably been doing it since you were in diapers

I don't consider asking "Do you want fries with that?" a very impressive example of problem solving.

 

[boedicca]

Who would you prefer conduct criminal investigations in this case? Vigilante mobs of ordinary citizens? Because we down here in Louisiana would be fine with that, too.

I think either would be better than the current government. I also think it is a great idea to boycott BP so they run out of money and resources in trying to clean up this mess. That makes a lot of sense to me.

They have $100,000,000,000 in assets. I think that should cover it.

And there we have hard left ideology in a nutshell: wealth equals guilt and must be taken from the owner under whatever pretext is available.

 

[DiamondDave]

What is your plan exactly? So far all I've gathered is for some odd reason you think we should wait as long as possible before investigating. That seems kind of stupid.

Do you start an after action report while an incident is still happening?

They aren't writing "after action" reports, whatever the fuck that even means in a legal context. They are investigating criminal and civil wrongdoing that has already happened.

Do you start the arson investigation before the fire is out and all information can be gathered?

This happens with forest fires all the time you moron. But I guess you'd prefer to give the arsonist time to get away in these cases - either because you are stupid - or because you're willing to twist logic in any way you need to be against every single action by the Obama administration.

Oh... and nice try to make it seem like I am saying to wait 'as long as possible'... in some feeble attempt to add power to your stance... the problem is that I never suggested such a thing

How long should we wait, genius? Until the evidence is destroyed? Until BP has had sufficient time to construct believable lies? Until statutes of limitations and prescriptions run out and its too late to file? Please, oh legal genius, enlighten us!

Oh... you wingnut... please seek professional help... you have some serious issues

An after action report is along the same lines as an investigation... reconstructing the sequence of events, lessons learned, etc to ascertain responsibility, wrongdoing, corrective action improvements, process and procedural improvements, and recommendations of disciplinary action.... but since you do nothing in the real world, of course you have no knowledge of such a thing

No... if there is evidence of a perpetrator or arsonist, what you suggest happens.... there is no such evidence anywhere apparent of any criminal action or intent.. there is much evidence that a catastrophe is still happening.... if there is indeed criminal wrongdoing or negligence, that will only be determined with an investigation that can only be properly done after he issue is resolved... with all access, all information, and direct focus off the situation at hand

How long we wait??... until the solution is implemented... and access to all necessary information is available... when interviewing or disturbing those who are attempting to help in the solution does not hinder their efforts

 

[sangha]

I think either would be better than the current government. I also think it is a great idea to boycott BP so they run out of money and resources in trying to clean up this mess. That makes a lot of sense to me.

They have $100,000,000,000 in assets. I think that should cover it.

And there we have hard left ideology in a nutshell: wealth equals guilt and must be taken from the owner under whatever pretext is available.

And there we have a stunning example of hard right illiteracy.

BP shouldnt have to pay for the cleanup because it will bankrupt them, even though they have enough money to pay.

BP caused the oil to spill, and the hard right wants to do nothing but provide BP with welfare by having taxpayers pay for BP's (possibly criminal) mistake.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Do you start an after action report while an incident is still happening?

They aren't writing "after action" reports, whatever the fuck that even means in a legal context. They are investigating criminal and civil wrongdoing that has already happened.


This happens with forest fires all the time you moron. But I guess you'd prefer to give the arsonist time to get away in these cases - either because you are stupid - or because you're willing to twist logic in any way you need to be against every single action by the Obama administration.

Oh... and nice try to make it seem like I am saying to wait 'as long as possible'... in some feeble attempt to add power to your stance... the problem is that I never suggested such a thing

How long should we wait, genius? Until the evidence is destroyed? Until BP has had sufficient time to construct believable lies? Until statutes of limitations and prescriptions run out and its too late to file? Please, oh legal genius, enlighten us!

Oh... you wingnut... please seek professional help... you have some serious issues

An after action report is along the same lines as an investigation... reconstructing the sequence of events, lessons learned, etc to ascertain responsibility, wrongdoing, corrective action improvements, process and procedural improvements, and recommendations of disciplinary action.... but since you do nothing in the real world, of course you have no knowledge of such a thing

No... if there is evidence of a perpetrator or arsonist, what you suggest happens.... there is no such evidence anywhere apparent of any criminal action or intent.. there is much evidence that a catastrophe is still happening.... if there is indeed criminal wrongdoing or negligence, that will only be determined with an investigation that can only be properly done after he issue is resolved... with all access, all information, and direct focus off the situation at hand

I just wanna make sure I get this straight.

You don't think the causes of a forest fire should be investigated while the fire is still burning - unless the investigation has already revealed evidence of arson? Is that what you're saying?

How long we wait??... until the solution is implemented...

The solution to what? The leak? Why do we have to wait until then? Does something magical happen legally at that point, other than the deadlines for filing legal action being closer?


Hey should we have waited for ground zero to stop smoldering before we starting trying to figure out who was responsible for 9/11?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

I think either would be better than the current government. I also think it is a great idea to boycott BP so they run out of money and resources in trying to clean up this mess. That makes a lot of sense to me.

They have $100,000,000,000 in assets. I think that should cover it.

And there we have hard left ideology in a nutshell: wealth equals guilt and must be taken from the owner under whatever pretext is available.

I don't think you've been following the news.

 

[DiamondDave]

What is your plan exactly? So far all I've gathered is for some odd reason you think we should wait as long as possible before investigating. That seems kind of stupid.

Do you start an after action report while an incident is still happening? Do you conduct an autopsy while the patient is still dying? Do you start having police and investigators grill the doctor about possible mistakes and criminality while they are still in the process of trying to save the life of and comfort the patient?? Do you start the arson investigation before the fire is out and all information can be gathered? Does the presence of investigators, interviewing, digging into information, etc help the finding of a solution?.... No.... all that you suggest does is changes focus away from the problem at hand...

Thank God you don't run anything in the real world...

Oh... and nice try to make it seem like I am saying to wait 'as long as possible'... in some feeble attempt to add power to your stance... the problem is that I never suggested such a thing

As it should be obvious by now, YOU HAVE NO PLAN. All you can do is repeat your slogans. Too bad you can't back them up with facts and logic.


If an incident is ongoing, the police file an incident report


If a patient is dying because of a criminal act, the police don't wait for the victim to die before going after the perp



If the patients doctors are suspected of malpractice or criminal behavior, then they are taken off the patients case and they are questioned while the patients new doctors care for the patient.



Yes. When firefighters see signs of arson, they don't wait for the fire to burn the evidence before they collect it. Boy, you sure are dumb

Does the presence of investigators, interviewing, digging into information, etc help the finding of a solution?....

Yes, it does. Most people realize that solutions come easier when you know what the problem is. Too bad conservatives dont know what even little children understand

all that you suggest does is changes focus away from the problem at hand...

And again, you demonstrate a lack in character by not explaining how having DOJ lawyers investigating BP will affect the stopping of the leaking oil.

Like I said, you can't explain yourself. All you can do is repeat your silly delusions

Again, you winger.. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY 'PERP'

If there were evidence of a PERP this would indeed be different.... this is not the case

What the US government is doing at this point is interrupting the doctor who is still working on saving the patient..... and even if the doctor can be later charged with malpractice, the doctor is not going anywhere... and I don't see the US taking over the situation to free up BP personnel from their attempts at solution, now do we?

Interruption, drawing ones involved away from the solution, taking time out of their involvement in the solution process does BY NATURE impede the bringing about of the solution....

The information is going nowhere... it will still all be there... and a complete investigation will and should be done.... AFTER THE SOLUTION.... if they wish to ask questions of those not involved from BP, knock themselves out... but they are not going to obtain ANY information from those not involved, that is going to be of ANY use until after the information is gathered when full access is available to everything after the gusher is stopped... when detailed research can be conducted at the site, when engineers from the site and involved in the solution can be debriefed and interviewed, when all data from beginning to end can be gone over with a fine tooth comb....

We did not invade Iraq solely because of evidence pointing to WoMD capabilities.. please read the resolution before you look even more ignorant than you do now

And I don't think I have asked 'you want fries with that' ever in my career... but handle equipment and systems that are worth thousands of times more than you will ever earn in your lifetime.... and was responsible for problem solving in the most life threatening of situations in my military career... I don't need to have any belief of some snot-nosed winger... my life, skills, career, and reputation mean something... a message board winger's belief is worth less than an expired coupon from last year's paper

 

[sangha]

Do you start an after action report while an incident is still happening?

They aren't writing "after action" reports, whatever the fuck that even means in a legal context. They are investigating criminal and civil wrongdoing that has already happened.


This happens with forest fires all the time you moron. But I guess you'd prefer to give the arsonist time to get away in these cases - either because you are stupid - or because you're willing to twist logic in any way you need to be against every single action by the Obama administration.

Oh... and nice try to make it seem like I am saying to wait 'as long as possible'... in some feeble attempt to add power to your stance... the problem is that I never suggested such a thing

How long should we wait, genius? Until the evidence is destroyed? Until BP has had sufficient time to construct believable lies? Until statutes of limitations and prescriptions run out and its too late to file? Please, oh legal genius, enlighten us!

Oh... you wingnut... please seek professional help... you have some serious issues

ANd once again, DD demonstrates his pervasive fear of having to explain himself. He's now delving into the childish and transparent ploy of "serious issues" because he is too afraid to stand up for his own ideas.

An after action report is along the same lines as an investigation... reconstructing the sequence of events, lessons learned, etc to ascertain responsibility, wrongdoing, corrective action improvements, process and procedural improvements, and recommendations of disciplinary action.... but since you do nothing in the real world, of course you have no knowledge of such a thing

Umm, an after action report is NOT an investigation. That's why they use different words to describe them.

After action REPORTS merely record the observations of the agent writing the report. No further action is required. Investigations are always ongoing. If the investigation is not open, then it's closed. AA reports are neither open or closed; they are merely reports.

I'm beginning to understand why you are so afraid of explaining yourself. It's because you can't defend your ideas without making up transparent lies. You lied and said fire inspectors don't investigate arson until the fire is out. You lied and said that do not help with criminal investigations while treating a patient (someone's never heard of rape kits) and now you lie and claim that After Action reports are the same as investigations.

No... if there is evidence of a perpetrator or arsonist, what you suggest happens.... there is no such evidence anywhere apparent of any criminal action or intent.. there is much evidence that a catastrophe is still happening.... if there is indeed criminal wrongdoing or negligence, that will only be determined with an investigation that can only be properly done after he issue is resolved... with all access, all information, and direct focus off the situation at hand

Another lie. There is already evidence, in the form of memos released by BP, that indicate criminal activity.

How long we wait??... until the solution is implemented... and access to all necessary information is available... when interviewing or disturbing those who are attempting to help in the solution does not hinder their efforts

And again, DD is too afraid to explain how the DOJ lawyers will be interfering with the solution. Instead you lie and say the DOJ will be going underwater and disturbing the engineers who are trying to fix the lead.

 

[Nonelitist]

Did some idiot on here actually suggest that firefighters collect evidence in an arson fire?

That is maybe the most ignorant thing on here I have ever read.

 

[DiamondDave]

They have $100,000,000,000 in assets. I think that should cover it.

And there we have hard left ideology in a nutshell: wealth equals guilt and must be taken from the owner under whatever pretext is available.

And there we have a stunning example of hard right illiteracy.

BP shouldnt have to pay for the cleanup because it will bankrupt them, even though they have enough money to pay.

BP caused the oil to spill, and the hard right wants to do nothing but provide BP with welfare by having taxpayers pay for BP's (possibly criminal) mistake.

Please cite your evidence that BP 'caused' the oil to spill... it has yet to be determined at all... because that type of investigation can only properly be conducted with access to everything including the site, failed equipment, systems controlling the equipment, persons involved with the equipment at the time of failure and during the fix action, etc

If BP is found negligent or criminal in it's actions... go after 'em.... knock yourself out... should BP be involved in the cleanup and responsible for it?? Yep, and have already stated they will be doing so

There is no root cause or reason for the incident... as all necessary evidence to determine that is not yet available....

The winger's contention of a BP 'perp' or definite cause of the incident is utterly laughable

 

[MalibuMan]

Where is the criminal investigation on the mining accident? Is it just me but didn't the 29 miners get more nation wide attention than the 11 workers on the oil rig? Hell I feel for the 11 people killed on the oil rig. Hardly no mention what so ever.

 

[DiamondDave]

They aren't writing "after action" reports, whatever the fuck that even means in a legal context. They are investigating criminal and civil wrongdoing that has already happened.


This happens with forest fires all the time you moron. But I guess you'd prefer to give the arsonist time to get away in these cases - either because you are stupid - or because you're willing to twist logic in any way you need to be against every single action by the Obama administration.


How long should we wait, genius? Until the evidence is destroyed? Until BP has had sufficient time to construct believable lies? Until statutes of limitations and prescriptions run out and its too late to file? Please, oh legal genius, enlighten us!

Oh... you wingnut... please seek professional help... you have some serious issues

ANd once again, DD demonstrates his pervasive fear of having to explain himself. He's now delving into the childish and transparent ploy of "serious issues" because he is too afraid to stand up for his own ideas.



Umm, an after action report is NOT an investigation. That's why they use different words to describe them.

After action REPORTS merely record the observations of the agent writing the report. No further action is required. Investigations are always ongoing. If the investigation is not open, then it's closed. AA reports are neither open or closed; they are merely reports.

I'm beginning to understand why you are so afraid of explaining yourself. It's because you can't defend your ideas without making up transparent lies. You lied and said fire inspectors don't investigate arson until the fire is out. You lied and said that do not help with criminal investigations while treating a patient (someone's never heard of rape kits) and now you lie and claim that After Action reports are the same as investigations.

No... if there is evidence of a perpetrator or arsonist, what you suggest happens.... there is no such evidence anywhere apparent of any criminal action or intent.. there is much evidence that a catastrophe is still happening.... if there is indeed criminal wrongdoing or negligence, that will only be determined with an investigation that can only be properly done after he issue is resolved... with all access, all information, and direct focus off the situation at hand

Another lie. There is already evidence, in the form of memos released by BP, that indicate criminal activity.

How long we wait??... until the solution is implemented... and access to all necessary information is available... when interviewing or disturbing those who are attempting to help in the solution does not hinder their efforts

And again, DD is too afraid to explain how the DOJ lawyers will be interfering with the solution. Instead you lie and say the DOJ will be going underwater and disturbing the engineers who are trying to fix the lead.

Wrong bubba gump.....

After action reports ( or AAR actions) are indeed partly investigation and partly the final report detailing the results of the investigation.... next you will try and state that root cause analysis is not investigating... you are too much

There is nothing that has indicated ANY criminal activity by BP.... there are tons of allegations but no direct and confirmed data to show what you claim... please cite the non-winger source for your confirmed evidence, or shut the fuck up

Hmmm... now you are trying to insinuate that I stated that lawyers will be going under water?? You are too much... no... that is not what they will be doing... but they will indeed, to obtain any necessary information for an investigation, be having BP persons involved in the solution and operation, pulling that data, being interviewed, etc... by NATURE taking away from the solution effort.... using up cycles otherwised being used to focus on the problem at hand... not all of those in a solution effort are the ones at ground 0.0

Hell.. interview the CEO.. interview a secretary.. interview a custodian... but they are not going to have the necessary information for any proper investigation... this is indeed all huffing and puffing and making a show... but nothing will be done right until full access to all data, systems, personnel, etc involved can be had... and that cannot be had until after this is solved

Nice try though, uber-winger

 

[sangha]

Again, you winger.. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY 'PERP'

Another lie from the cowardly. Several people have pointed out the crime several times in this thread.

What the US government is doing at this point is interrupting the doctor who is still working on saving the patient..... and even if the doctor can be later charged with malpractice, the doctor is not going anywhere

Ummm, again your inability to defend your absurd notions has led you into dishonesty. The US govt is not going to be putting on a wetsuit and diving in the water to ask the engineers questions.

Besides, if a doctor is suspected of malpractice, he is immediately removed from treating patients and another doctor is assigned. Only a wingnut would allow a doctor suspected of malpractice to continue treating them until they got better.

Interruption, drawing ones involved away from the solution, taking time out of their involvement in the solution process does BY NATURE impede the bringing about of the solution....

And do you have any facts that show that any of the people trying to fix the problem will be "drawn away" or is this another of your lies intended to let you avoid explaining yourself?

Once again, I will point out that you are unable to explain yourself. All you can do is repeat your slogans. The only difference with this response is that you reworded your absurd "Investigations will delay the solution" argument. You haven't explained anything.

The information is going nowhere... it will still all be there

I would have more confidence in your ability to predict the future if you would only demonstrate an ability to predict the past.

... and a complete investigation will and should be done.... AFTER THE SOLUTION....

And once again, DD cowardly repeats his slogan without explaining himself.

if they wish to ask questions of those not involved from BP, knock themselves out... but they are not going to obtain ANY information from those not involved, that is going to be of ANY use until after the information is gathered when full access is available to everything after the gusher is stopped...

And again you claim that an investigation will somehow involve the people who are now working to stop the leak, and again you cowardly fail to explain HOW it will do so.

when detailed research can be conducted at the site

So you think that the DOJ lawyers are going to the offshore drill site?

when engineers from the site and involved in the solution can be debriefed and interviewed,

That is happening on a daily basis right now, so I don't see how that will interfere with the solution.

Dont you watch the news at all? BP has been giving daily press briefing based on what it's engineers are saying. So far, no one has claimed this is interfering with stopping the leak. However, since you seem to know so much more than BP, perhaps you could, for a change, explain HOW these briefings are interfering with the solution?

when all data from beginning to end can be gone over with a fine tooth comb....

And now you're back to the absurd "the fire dept doesn't investigate arson until the house (and the evidence) burns down".

We did not invade Iraq solely because of evidence pointing to WoMD capabilities.. please read the resolution before you look even more ignorant than you do now

LOL!!! I predicted you would be too afraid to explain exactly why we invaded Iraq, and sure enough, you dodged the question again.

And I don't think I have asked 'you want fries with that' ever in my career... but handle equipment and systems that are worth thousands of times more than you will ever earn in your lifetime.... and was responsible for problem solving in the most life threatening of situations in my military career... I don't need to have any belief of some snot-nosed winger... my life, skills, career, and reputation mean something... a message board winger's belief is worth less than an expired coupon from last year's paper

Yeah, right!! I believe ya!! And I believe the police won't investigate a brutal beating until the victim recovers and the fire dept wont investigate arson until the house burns down, and I believe that doctors suspected of malpractice are allowed to continue treating patients, and an after action report is just like an investigation.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Again, you winger.. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY 'PERP'

If there were evidence of a PERP this would indeed be different.... this is not the case

So I guess this giant hole in the Earth just magically started spewing oil all on its own, is that what you're saying?

What the US government is doing at this point is interrupting the doctor who is still working on saving the patient..... and even if the doctor can be later charged with malpractice, the doctor is not going anywhere...

No. There's no doctor. No patient. Stupid analogy. Really dumb.

Interruption, drawing ones involved away from the solution, taking time out of their involvement in the solution process does BY NATURE impede the bringing about of the solution....

When Holder starts pulling BP's critical employees working on the spill off the job to do interviews, let us all know.

The information is going nowhere... it will still all be there...

Right, because wrongdoers would never, ever, ever think about destroying evidence! For someone who claims to live in the "real world" you sure are naive!

and a complete investigation will and should be done.... AFTER THE SOLUTION....

What if "the solution" doesn't happen till deadlines on some of the possible legal action have run out? Oh well then?

if they wish to ask questions of those not involved from BP, knock themselves out...

You should call AG Holder and let him know you've approved him to do that.

but they are not going to obtain ANY information from those not involved, that is going to be of ANY use until after the information is gathered when full access is available to everything after the gusher is stopped...

How do you know?

We did not invade Iraq solely because of evidence pointing to WoMD capabilities.. please read the resolution before you look even more ignorant than you do now

WTF are you babbling about Iraq for? I said: "Hey should we have waited for ground zero to stop smoldering before we starting trying to figure out who was responsible for 9/11?" You are aware Iraq was not responsible for 9/11, right, or are you seriously that stupid?

And I don't think I have asked 'you want fries with that' ever in my career... but handle equipment and systems that are worth thousands of times more than you will ever earn in your lifetime.... and was responsible for problem solving in the most life threatening of situations in my military career... I don't need to have any belief of some snot-nosed winger... my life, skills, career, and reputation mean something... a message board winger's belief is worth less than an expired coupon from last year's paper

Good for you!

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Hey DiamondDave, you never answered this question:

You don't think the causes of a forest fire should be investigated while the fire is still burning - unless the investigation has already revealed evidence of arson? Is that what you're saying?

 

[sangha]

Did some idiot on here actually suggest that firefighters collect evidence in an arson fire?

That is maybe the most ignorant thing on here I have ever read.

So you think if a firefighter sees an emptied can of gasoline at a fire, he just leaves it there?

You seem to be an expert on ignorance

 

[boedicca]

They certainly don't stop fighting the fire to collect evidence, bub.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

There is nothing that has indicated ANY criminal activity by BP....

Except for the fact its a strict liability crime to kill a pelican - and we're finding all these dead pelicans with oil all over them. But hey, that's not evidence of a crime!

 

[Lonestar_logic]

So I guess this giant hole in the Earth just magically started spewing oil all on its own, is that what you're saying?

Oil does in fact naturally seep out of the ocean floor, killing endangered species no doubt. How are you going to penalize the earth for such a crime?

 

[DiamondDave]

Hey DiamondDave, you never answered this question:

You don't think the causes of a forest fire should be investigated while the fire is still burning - unless the investigation has already revealed evidence of arson? Is that what you're saying?

When the originating area is still burning, you can't.... when access to those with the data and those directly involved are still working on the fire.. you can't... you can look at video from a camera at the corner store on the access road... and you can ask neighbors.... and all sorts of things like that... but the pertinent information you need from ground 0.0 and the necessary information from the firefighters at the scene cannot be done UNTIL THE SOLUTION IS HAD..... UNTIL THE FIRE IS OUT....

What you are advocating is taking away cycles from the firefighters and their support staff to gather your information, while they are still fighting the fire.... and those directly involved are the ones that are going to give you the majority of your useful information...

As stated.. interview the CEO.. interview a secretary.. interview some custodian.... knock yourself out... going to get you nowhere though, until you have access to the area, data, systems, personnel, etc, that are involved.. and right now they are dealing with something a little more important than the AG's questions... you have the fed take over the whole solution effort to relieve BP from doing it, go ahead... knock yourself out... doubt we'll see that happen though