U.S. and Israel ongoing relationship

Nothing wrong with Noam Chomsky. He's one of the foremost intellectuals of our time. What seem unable to do is craft an argument based on facts and not ad homonym attacks. I support the state of Israel. I supported Operation Cast Lead as I thought it was absurd that Israel should have to put up with missile attacks from Hamas. But I am also against the occupation because it is bad for Israel, bad for America and the world, which puts me in agreement with Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert.

If you are prepared to have an intelligent discussion (or even capable), how would you propose solving the upcoming demographic time bomb? What if the Palestinians say tomorrow that they are dissolving the Palestinian authority and ask for direct Israeli rule? What happens when they begin to protest non-violently for the right to vote? Non-jews are already over 40% of the population of the territory Israel controls. Arab birth rates are 2.2% annually, while Jewish are 1.8%. If this happens, how many Isrealis would want to leave for Europe or America?


Think.

You've been exposed no need to take any more of your bullshit seriously. The Arabs can do what they want, Israel will just annex what they feel they need give the Arabs what’s left. I actually doubt you're a Jew and your numbers are wrong...

Jews in Israel Are Not Declining Relative to Arabs Demographically

by Chris Gacek
May 24, 2011

Caroline Glick most recent column in the Jerusalem Post contains important demographic data. In his speech last week, President Obama stated, “The number of Palestinians living west of the Jordan River is growing rapidly and fundamentally reshaping the demographic realities of both Israel and the Palestinian territories. This will make it harder and harder – without a peace deal – to maintain Israel as both a Jewish state and a democratic state.”

Glick calls this the “demographic time bomb story,” and she says it is demonstrably false. I will let her provide the details:

“The demographic time bomb story is a Palestinian fabrication. In 1997, the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics published a falsified Palestinian census that inflated Palestinian population data by 50 percent.

“The Israeli Left adopted this fake report as its own when Palestinian terrorism and political warfare convinced the majority of Israelis that it was unwise to give them any more land and that the peace process was a lie.

“Since 2004, repeated, in-depth studies of Jewish and Arab birthrates and immigration/ emigration statistics west of the Jordan River undertaken by independent researchers have shown that the demographic time bomb is a dud. In January, the respected demographer Yaakov Faitelson published a study for the Institute of Zionist Strategies in which he definitively put to rest the tale of pending Jewish demographic doom.

“As Faitelson demonstrated, Jewish and Arab birthrates are already converging west of the Jordan River at around three children per woman. And whereas the fertility rates of Israeli Arabs, Gazans and residents of Judea and Samaria are all trending downward, Jewish fertility is consistently rising. Moreover, whereas the Arabs are experiencing consistently negative net immigration rates, Jewish net immigration rates are positive and high.”

“Faitelson based his multiyear projections on current population numbers in which Jews comprise 58.6 percent of the population west of the Jordan River and Muslims constitute 38.7% of the overall population. Non-Jewish, non-Muslim minorities comprise the other 2.7%. Using assessment baselines for Jewish net immigration well below current averages, Faitelson showed that in the years to come, not only will Jews not lose our demographic majority. We will increase it.

FRC Blog » Jews in Israel Are Not Declining Relative to Arabs Demographically

You know, its funny. I find myself strangely agreeing with you. There isn't any need for further conversation.

First, I am Jewish. My mother is Jewish and I identify myself as such.

Second, I was never hiding anything. I am for Chomsky. I am for Peace Now. I agree with J Street. I was for the evacuation from Gaza. I think the peace treaty with Egypt was a good idea (many on the right in Israel hated at the time, the way they hate peace now).

Third, I think you have shown your true colors. You favor an Israel state that flouts international law, has the ethics of Putin's Russia, without democracy, while echoing hollow words about freedom quoted from your hero the puppet Ronald Reagan--a man even his own aids thought was not very intelligent. You obviously care more about Israel than the United States, whereas I am an American citizen and I support policies that are good for America. Supporting a criminal Israeli regime is not the in US interest.

You propose stealing large portions of the West Bank based on might makes right. Because of the "facts on the ground." How did World War II start? Hello ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia? The rule of law should mean something to civilized peoples.

I disagree with President Obama. I think UN recognition of a Palestinian state, which because of Bibi will happen in September is probably a good thing for the peace process. After all sanctions worked in South Africa.

Upon further reflection, I think having a Jewish state--the only Jewish state--acting in a criminal manner (breaking international law repeatedly) is not good for Jews world wide. Moreover it is not good for Jews in Israel. If there is one thing the history of the 20th century tells us is that non-violent liberation movements, such as Gandhi in India, MLK in the US, color revolutions of eastern Europe, etc. have always beaten back might makes right land grabbing. The Palestinians have finally begun to realize this and now they are more dangerous than ever to those in Israel who seek to annex their land. They have taken away the security excuse.

Jews worldwide need to realize that a true friend of Israel is to support policies that give Israel a sustainable future rather than policies that mirror past totalitarian regimes of the 20th century.
 
Last edited:
I agree with you that military aid to Israel is more about funding the military industrial <b>welfare</b> state than anything else.

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel, therefore this can be counted as aid to Israel as well.

You are clear when you call Israel a welfare state. You need to hide it better. :razz:

Israel is a welfare state for its people. It has a great education system and good health care. I wish we had this.

Actually what I was referring to in terms of the military industry welfare state was the US military industry, which I think is the real reason aid to Israel is so popular in Congress. I approve of social welfare, but not military welfare.
 
You've been exposed no need to take any more of your bullshit seriously. The Arabs can do what they want, Israel will just annex what they feel they need give the Arabs what’s left. I actually doubt you're a Jew and your numbers are wrong...



FRC Blog » Jews in Israel Are Not Declining Relative to Arabs Demographically

You know, its funny. I find myself strangely agreeing with you. There isn't any need for further conversation.

First, I am Jewish. My mother is Jewish and I identify myself as such.

Second, I was never hiding anything. I am for Chomsky. I am for Peace Now. I agree with J Street. I was for the evacuation from Gaza. I think the peace treaty with Egypt was a good idea (many on the right in Israel hated at the time, the way they hate peace now).

Third, I think you have shown your true colors. You favor an Israel state that flouts international law, has the ethics of Putin's Russia, without democracy, while echoing hollow words about freedom quoted from your hero the puppet Ronald Reagan--a man even his own aids thought was not very intelligent. You obviously care more about Israel than the United States, whereas I am an American citizen and I support policies that are good for America. Supporting a criminal Israeli regime is not the in US interest.

You propose stealing large portions of the West Bank based on might makes right. Because of the "facts on the ground." How did World War II start? Hello ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia? The rule of law should mean something to civilized peoples.

I disagree with President Obama. I think UN recognition of a Palestinian state, which because of Bibi will happen in September is probably a good thing for the peace process. After all sanctions worked in South Africa.

Upon further reflection, I think having a Jewish state--the only Jewish state--acting in a criminal manner (breaking international law repeatedly) is not good for Jews world wide. Moreover it is not good for Jews in Israel. If there is one thing the history of the 20th century tells us is that non-violent liberation movements, such as Gandhi in India, MLK in the US, color revolutions of eastern Europe, etc. have always beaten back might makes right land grabbing. The Palestinians have finally begun to realize this and now they are more dangerous than ever to those in Israel who seek to annex their land. They have taken away the security excuse.

Jews worldwide need to realize that a true friend of Israel is to support policies that give Israel a sustainable future rather than policies that mirror past totalitarian regimes of the 20th century.

:cuckoo: Jews like you Israel doesn't need, all that stupidity you took the time to write is just that ignorant ant-Israel stupidity. That’s the problem with people like Chomsky and J street the simple fact is that the Arabs will not accept the fact that there will be a Jewish State in the mid-east and that’s a fact, muslims want the Jews dead, that’s it, no Jews, no Israel got it? And I could give a shit about the U.N. So You "support policies that are good for America." well that puts you at odds with the U.N right there, and Chomsky is just as much against America as he is against Israel, I don't understand how people like you go through life devoid of reality, It is about survival with Israel that’s the bottom line.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKeAVBYAbn0&playnext=1&list=PL759D0256BCE338A1]YouTube - &#x202a;Hamas Spokesmen calls for genocide of all Jews&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]
 
You know, its funny. I find myself strangely agreeing with you. There isn't any need for further conversation.

First, I am Jewish. My mother is Jewish and I identify myself as such.

Second, I was never hiding anything. I am for Chomsky. I am for Peace Now. I agree with J Street. I was for the evacuation from Gaza. I think the peace treaty with Egypt was a good idea (many on the right in Israel hated at the time, the way they hate peace now).

Third, I think you have shown your true colors. You favor an Israel state that flouts international law, has the ethics of Putin's Russia, without democracy, while echoing hollow words about freedom quoted from your hero the puppet Ronald Reagan--a man even his own aids thought was not very intelligent. You obviously care more about Israel than the United States, whereas I am an American citizen and I support policies that are good for America. Supporting a criminal Israeli regime is not the in US interest.

You propose stealing large portions of the West Bank based on might makes right. Because of the "facts on the ground." How did World War II start? Hello ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia? The rule of law should mean something to civilized peoples.

I disagree with President Obama. I think UN recognition of a Palestinian state, which because of Bibi will happen in September is probably a good thing for the peace process. After all sanctions worked in South Africa.

Upon further reflection, I think having a Jewish state--the only Jewish state--acting in a criminal manner (breaking international law repeatedly) is not good for Jews world wide. Moreover it is not good for Jews in Israel. If there is one thing the history of the 20th century tells us is that non-violent liberation movements, such as Gandhi in India, MLK in the US, color revolutions of eastern Europe, etc. have always beaten back might makes right land grabbing. The Palestinians have finally begun to realize this and now they are more dangerous than ever to those in Israel who seek to annex their land. They have taken away the security excuse.

Jews worldwide need to realize that a true friend of Israel is to support policies that give Israel a sustainable future rather than policies that mirror past totalitarian regimes of the 20th century.

:cuckoo: Jews like you Israel doesn't need, all that stupidity you took the time to write is just that ignorant ant-Israel stupidity. That’s the problem with people like Chomsky and J street the simple fact is that the Arabs will not accept the fact that there will be a Jewish State in the mid-east and that’s a fact, muslims want the Jews dead, that’s it, no Jews, no Israel got it? And I could give a shit about the U.N. So You "support policies that are good for America." well that puts you at odds with the U.N right there, and Chomsky is just as much against America as he is against Israel, I don't understand how people like you go through life devoid of reality, It is about survival with Israel that’s the bottom line.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKeAVBYAbn0&playnext=1&list=PL759D0256BCE338A1]YouTube - &#x202a;Hamas Spokesmen calls for genocide of all Jews&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]

I don't support Hamas. Now that Rafah is open, the Egyptians can provide Gaza with electricity and water. Israel should provide a date certain when the infrastructural connection would be disconnected.

What gives you the right to speak for what Israel needs? Moral high ground is far more important the a few hills in the West Bank. Its right wing zealots like you that puts Israel's real security in danger. Do you really mean it when you say that "all Muslims" want Jews dead? This is absurd. The way to combat extremism is to isolate extremists. This will happen by Israel behaving in a lawful manner, which it can't do when its hi-jacked by a Putin-esque extremist who really calls the shots.

My question to you is why don't you move to Israel if you prefer it to America? Where are your loyalties?
 
Don't bother, Serge. To Jroc, all Arab Muslims are the exactly same, and all Jews are the same - and if you don't conform to his ideal of what a Jew must think... well, then obviously YOU ARE A BAD JEW. If you don't start foaming at the mouth full of hate for every single Arab that's ever been born - YOU ARE A BAD JEW. If you have a single reservation about any single military action that the Government of Israel has ever undertaken - YOU ARE A BAD JEW. If you do not support the invasion of Hungary, the crackdown on Czechoslovakia, or the intervention in Afghanistan - YOU ARE A BAD RUSSIAN. If you do not support the war on Vietnam, the Gulf War or the war against Iraq - YOU ARE A BAD AMERICAN. If you do not support our attacks on the Twin Towers, if you don't hate the Jews, if you don't kill the Americans - YOU ARE A BAD MUSLIM. We all must think alike. There can be no dissent. We must all speak with one voice. Because otherwise, the they win.
 
Don't bother, Serge. To Jroc, all Arab Muslims are the exactly same, and all Jews are the same - and if you don't conform to his ideal of what a Jew must think... well, then obviously YOU ARE A BAD JEW. If you don't start foaming at the mouth full of hate for every single Arab that's ever been born - YOU ARE A BAD JEW. If you have a single reservation about any single military action that the Government of Israel has ever undertaken - YOU ARE A BAD JEW. If you do not support the invasion of Hungary, the crackdown on Czechoslovakia, or the intervention in Afghanistan - YOU ARE A BAD RUSSIAN. If you do not support the war on Vietnam, the Gulf War or the war against Iraq - YOU ARE A BAD AMERICAN. If you do not support our attacks on the Twin Towers, if you don't hate the Jews, if you don't kill the Americans - YOU ARE A BAD MUSLIM. We all must think alike. There can be no dissent. We must all speak with one voice. Because otherwise, the they win.

JROC- I am assuming you would agree with this characterization of yourself? If not, how would your view of yourself differ?
 
:cuckoo: Jews like you Israel doesn't need, all that stupidity you took the time to write is just that ignorant ant-Israel stupidity. That’s the problem with people like Chomsky and J street the simple fact is that the Arabs will not accept the fact that there will be a Jewish State in the mid-east and that’s a fact, muslims want the Jews dead, that’s it, no Jews, no Israel got it? And I could give a shit about the U.N. So You "support policies that are good for America." well that puts you at odds with the U.N right there, and Chomsky is just as much against America as he is against Israel, I don't understand how people like you go through life devoid of reality, It is about survival with Israel that’s the bottom line.

The problem I have with most zionists is they do not think clearly in one particular aspect- morality. They try to create a moral justification for what Israel is doing and they ignore international law as irrelevant or anti-israel.


"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it..." - Ben Gurion

One thing we all realize as we get older is that might makes right, and because of this dangerous truth, we must be ruled by law. But even within the framework of international law, israel is a transgressor. And the reason they can ignore international law is because of our support (the USA).

So when you jroc says "I don't understand how people like you go through life devoid of reality" I say the same thing of him. You think this colonization is done for israeli security, and I say it is doing the opposite, it is inevitably making israel less secure. Because no matter what, israel is a small man, israel can only do what the USA allows it to do, and right now the USA is using Israel for its own reasons. US interests and Israeli interests are not the same. And a small man should not start a fight with a larger man without protection. Israel should be actively promoting peace and establishing itself in the world community while the USA is helping it, and nationalistic parrots like jroc are hurting israel in the long run. Some people like to say it is the same as the americans wiping out the american indians, and while similar, it is not the same in one huge respect - the demographics of the Arabs to the Israelis is not the same as the demographics of the Early European American settlers and the American Indians. There are way more arabs than israelis, and there were way more americans and europeans than american indians. Israel is squandering this opportunity for peace.
 
I agree with you that military aid to Israel is more about funding the military industrial welfare state than anything else.

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel, therefore this can be counted as aid to Israel as well.
Thanks for mentioning this very important point which is rarely considered.
 
I agree with you that military aid to Israel is more about funding the military industrial welfare state than anything else.

Egypt is funded at $2B so that it does not attack Israel, therefore this can be counted as aid to Israel as well.

So you admitt Israel has a death warrant signed by Arab countries?
I'm not sure that is true or not. But even if it is true why should the U.S. be concerned to the level of intervention -- which is the primary cause of Islamic antagonism toward us?

If Israel is despised by the Arab countries, that is Israel's problem. Not ours! And any American Jew who is truly concerned about it can book a flight on El Al and join the IDF. Or stop the bullshit!
 
Do you really mean what you say here? I mean, grouping all Arab countries together. Is Syria the same as Jordan?

Israel is not a weak country, it has a developed economy and it could fund its own arms purchases and if the arms were purchased from Europe, Russia and China as well, Israel would have more "friends" on the UN Security Council and China might be less willing to carry Iran's water.

Moreover, Israel is strong enough that it doesn't need to be told what to do by the US. By rejecting the aid (in a nice way), Israel would be in a much stronger position diplomatically.

What was that about a death warrant?


You did ay this impling without the money Egypt would still be fighting Israel.


Moreover, Israel is strong enough that it doesn't need to be told what to do by the US.

You're right but friends do not stab other friends in the back. America is strong but we cannot not fight the whole world alone., Israel is alone now.

Israel seems like the spoiled child that is tired of living under the hegemony of mom and dad (see Scott Evil).

Part of the peace deal of camp david involved American aid to Egypt. The money that flowed provided a good argument to those inside Egypt to not join other Arab countries in fighting Israel.

If Israel needs the US so much, then their leaders should behave more respectfully to our President. My theory is they don't need the US and this is why they behave disrespectfully.
Whether or not Israel needs the U.S. to ensure its survival the fact remains that Israel's hold on the U.S. is the political influence applied to our Congress by AIPAC and JINSA, which are two very powerful lobbying organizations funded largely by American Jews and supplemented by the $3 billion annual "aid" disbursed directly to Israel in one form or another.

It's a nice arrangement. We give Israel money and it comes right back to our corrupted Congress as bribes in the form of PACs (etc). Bottom line: Israel's strength is the corruption of the U.S. government's representatives.
 
Last edited:
:eusa_eh: Wow all the anti Israel haters are out... What are you guys in some kind of social club or something?..I'm not going to spend a lot of time on all the stupid points and analogies, The bottom line is, as Netanyahu said "History is not going to give the Jews another chance" . So if you think the fate of the Jews in Israel is going to be left up to the good will and trustworthiness of the muslim Arabs you truly are delusional..."It's not gonna happen" "Everybody knows it's not going to happen" "I think it's time to tell the "Palestinians" forthrightly its not gonna happen" :cool:
 
:eusa_eh: Wow all the anti Israel haters are out... What are you guys in some kind of social club or something?..I'm not going to spend a lot of time on all the stupid points and analogies, The bottom line is, as Netanyahu said "History is not going to give the Jews another chance" . So if you think the fate of the Jews in Israel is going to be left up to the good will and trustworthiness of the muslim Arabs you truly are delusional..."It's not gonna happen" "Everybody knows it's not going to happen" "I think it's time to tell the "Palestinians" forthrightly its not gonna happen" :cool:

Yet again he retreats to his primary skill set: the blind chanting of slogans. Please address the previous post. You are becoming a caricature of yourself. BTW-let me guess, you're not the kind of guy that appreciates the humor of Phillip Roth or Woody Allen.

And I have to believe I am not the only person to find your 3D flags annoying and offensive along with your ironic quote from that clown of a president Ronald Reagan, who greatly expanded the size of the federal government, ran up a huge debt, blatantly disregarded the law and was a proven liar.
 
Last edited:
:eusa_eh: Wow all the anti Israel haters are out... What are you guys in some kind of social club or something?..I'm not going to spend a lot of time on all the stupid points and analogies, The bottom line is, as Netanyahu said "History is not going to give the Jews another chance" . So if you think the fate of the Jews in Israel is going to be left up to the good will and trustworthiness of the muslim Arabs you truly are delusional..."It's not gonna happen" "Everybody knows it's not going to happen" "I think it's time to tell the "Palestinians" forthrightly its not gonna happen" :cool:

Agree with Serge here, kinda lame response. "I'm not going to respond to anything said, the point is I'm right :p"

Anyway, how about this: how about letting the fate of Jews in Israel be left up to their nuclear stockpiles, high-grade American-made weapons, and one the top 10 most powerful armies in the world - put your trust in that, in case of an attack, your super army can respond with the most up-to-date military hardware in existence and impose permanent nuclear winter onto Cairo, Damascus, Tehran, and Riyadh within the half hour. Stop your pathetic whining and quivering, and open your eyes the reality of Israeli military supremacy in the Middle East - Israel is going to be OK, relax. Stop letting Netanyahu, Lieberman and their buddies frighten you shitless about anyone who is different from you.
 
Some say that the US has too much influence on Israel. Some say that Israel has too much influence on the US.

I say the the US and Israel are owned by the same people. Those "shared values" that we always hear about are in opposition of the interests of the average Israeli or US citizens.
 
Some say that the US has too much influence on Israel. Some say that Israel has too much influence on the US.

I say the the US and Israel are owned by the same people. Those "shared values" that we always hear about are in opposition of the interests of the average Israeli or US citizens.

Which people are these that own the US and Israel?
 

New Topics

Forum List

Back
Top