Two kinds of Muslims

[Ravi]

The Koran says that man-made governments are the enemy of Islam.

Still waiting for you to post the verse.

Does Islam believe imams are God?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The Koran says that man-made governments are the enemy of Islam.

Still waiting for you to post the verse.

They was posted yesterday, you dismissed them.

 

[Ravi]

The Koran says that man-made governments are the enemy of Islam.

Still waiting for you to post the verse.

They was posted yesterday, you dismissed them.

Link?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Its in this thread , post 44 .You aren't worth the effort of right clicking and copying and pasting.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

]My understanding of sharia law is that it means...follow God's law. My understanding of biblical teachings is that it means...follow God's law.

Please list where God/Jesus says follow secular law (aside from taxes) and where the Koran says anything different.

Thanks!

Do you really want me to demonstrate your massive ignorance in public?

Don't answer, I really do not care if that is what you want, it is what you are going to get.

[Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. Romans 13:1-7 NIV

As for Sharia law and the Koran.

"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Sura 9:5

"Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission." Sura 9:29

"The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)." Sura 8:173

Tell me honestly, which one sounds more like it is willing to let you live and follow the laws you want?

You got the first part right...even though you claimed prior to that that the bible said secular law trumped biblical law.

The funny thing is, aside from your out of context quotes, the imam that wants to build in NYC said EXACTLY the same thing you said about the bible about the Koran...sharia is God's law and therefore the US constitution is within the keeping of God's law.

EPIC fail.

You're welcome.

How does my quote somehow prove that the Bible trumps secular law? Romans 13 has been used for centuries to prove that Christians should never rebel against any government, even a totalitarian one, because that government comes from God. Just because a few radicals are twisting things now does not change the weight of history.

Which is precisely what I am pointing out about Islam, the weight of history proves that anyone who thinks that secular law trumps Sharia law is a fool. The radicals you dismiss in Islam are the ones that are speaking the historical truth about Islam.

It amazes me the ability of some people to find whatever supports there position. If you spent less time concentrating on the facts that make you right, and more time looking at all the facts, you might actually discover that somebody besides yourself can think.

Look at what people are doing, and what they have done, not what they say. You would think that after the example of Obama people would learn that words are not what matters, but I guess that would require a connection to reality.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

How is this different than the Christian belief that God makes laws through man and therefore man's laws are actually God's laws?

The way Christians believe, any law mad by man ultimately comes from God. In Islam, only the laws that come from Allah count, and all of those were written 1400 years ago, which is why a husband can beat his wife.

Does this make sense now, or do you still think Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance?

And more to the point, why does it matter? Our constitution forbids religion from ruling the country. How does building a mosque in NYC translate into sharia law ruling the US?

It matters because Islam wants to kill you, and Christianity wants to save you.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

How is this different than the Christian belief that God makes laws through man and therefore man's laws are actually God's laws?

The way Christians believe, any law mad by man ultimately comes from God. In Islam, only the laws that come from Allah count, and all of those were written 1400 years ago, which is why a husband can beat his wife.

Does this make sense now, or do you still think Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance?

And more to the point, why does it matter? Our constitution forbids religion from ruling the country. How does building a mosque in NYC translate into sharia law ruling the US?

It matters because Islam wants to kill you, and Christianity wants to save you.

She will convert in a NY second to save herself.
She thinks that Christ dieing to save mankind, is the same as Mohammad killing to create Islam.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The spectrum of Muslim legal systems

The legal systems in 21st century Muslim majority states can be classified as follows.
Sharia in the secular Muslim states: Muslim countries such as Mali, Kazakhstan and Turkey (which is under pressure from religious political parties) have declared themselves to be secular. Here, religious interference in state affairs, law and politics is prohibited.[37] In these Muslim countries, as well as the secular West, the role of Sharia is limited to personal and family matters.
Muslim states with blended sources of law: Muslim countries including Pakistan, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Nigeria, Sudan, Morocco and Malaysia have legal systems strongly influenced by Sharia, but also cede ultimate authority to their constitutions and the rule of law. These countries conduct democratic elections, although some are also under the influence of authoritarian leaders. In these countries, politicians and jurists make law, rather than religious scholars. Most of these countries have modernized their laws and now have legal systems with significant differences when compared to classical Sharia.[38]
Muslim states using classical Sharia: Saudi Arabia and some of the Gulf states do not have constitutions or legislatures. Their rulers have limited authority to change laws, since they are based on Sharia as it is interpreted by their religious scholars. Iran shares some of these characteristics, but also has a parliament that legislates in a manner consistent with Sharia.[39]

So basically, a country that allows Sharia law in total is a country that is ruled by clerics (priests).

This is not possible in the United States as it is unconstitutional.

My question, since you have just acknowledged that Sharia law requires that clerics rule, and further admit that this is unconstitutional, why do you continually insist that Sharia law is not incompatible with secular law?

Talk about EPIC FAIL.

So again, how does a mosque built in NYC mean the constitution will be come void?

And what is up with the current backlash against Muslims in general? Are we having more terrorist attacks, or less. Is this just the rightwing media and talking head GOPers trying to drum up fear because it is an *ahem* election year?

More. Definitely more.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

FWIW, this is Shari'ah governance:

The term caliphate (from the Arabic خلافة or khilāfa) refers to the first system of governance established in Islam. The most common translation for the word which appears in the Quran is vicegerency (or caretaker). It is a constitutional republic, which means that the rulers are bound by a set of laws which they cannot break at a whim, and the people have the right to appoint their leader through their local leaders and should the leaders divert from their obligations as vicegerents, the people have the right to remove them.

It was initially led by Prophet Muhammad's companions as a continuation of the political authority the Prophet established, known in Arabic as Khulufaa'u Rashidin or English 'Rashidun Caliphate (Rightly Guided Caliphate)'. It represented the political and theological unity of the Muslim Ummah, and was the world's first major welfare state. A "caliphate" is also a state which implements such a government.

Sunni Islam dictates that the head of state, the caliph, should be selected by Shura - elected by Muslims or their representatives....

The Rashidun Caliphate is the archetypal Islamic government. That type of society will not be established in the United States unless the American people desire it (and they clearly do not.) Our goal is to establish Shari'ah in the so-called Muslim world, not in a country whose population is at most 1% Islamic. Do yourselves a favor and find a legitimate cause for concern.

Why no link? Is it because the last time you linked to that site I used it to prove that they agree that Sharia law trumps the Constitution, and every secular government in the world?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

FWIW, this is Shari'ah governance:

The term caliphate (from the Arabic خلافة or khilāfa) refers to the first system of governance established in Islam. The most common translation for the word which appears in the Quran is vicegerency (or caretaker). It is a constitutional republic, which means that the rulers are bound by a set of laws which they cannot break at a whim, and the people have the right to appoint their leader through their local leaders and should the leaders divert from their obligations as vicegerents, the people have the right to remove them.

It was initially led by Prophet Muhammad's companions as a continuation of the political authority the Prophet established, known in Arabic as Khulufaa'u Rashidin or English 'Rashidun Caliphate (Rightly Guided Caliphate)'. It represented the political and theological unity of the Muslim Ummah, and was the world's first major welfare state. A "caliphate" is also a state which implements such a government.

Sunni Islam dictates that the head of state, the caliph, should be selected by Shura - elected by Muslims or their representatives....

The Rashidun Caliphate is the archetypal Islamic government. That type of society will not be established in the United States unless the American people desire it (and they clearly do not.) Our goal is to establish Shari'ah in the so-called Muslim world, not in a country whose population is at most 1% Islamic. Do yourselves a favor and find a legitimate cause for concern.

Why no link? Is it because the last time you linked to that site I used it to prove that they agree that Sharia law trumps the Constitution, and every secular government in the world?

Kalam doesn't like links or scripture in his posts, it weakens his "stature" as a mouth piece for Islam.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I thought he just learned that I actually look at the links he provides, and everything they say.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Article of faith ,you think he can read.
Damn you really are the man.
Enjoy an old song.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p-BFHrF-Do]YouTube - crack the sky dog city[/ame]

 

[ConHog]

I'm surprised to see such a staunch advocate for women's rights fiercely defending Islam and Sharia law.

Perhaps Ravi doesn't actually know how women are treated in Islamic cultures that practice Sharia law.

Not surprising, she's ignorant about most things.

Those countries are perverting their religion...just like fundies here pervert THEIR religion.

IMO there is no different between a fundamentalist Christian and a fundamentalist Muslim...they both suck.

You are trying to lump Muslims in the fundamentalist category and IMO that is retarded, hateful, and wrong.

Just further proves how stupid you are and how irrelevant your opinion is. How many people have been killed by fundamentalist Christians compared to fundamentalist Muslims? We've had these thread before and it's something on the order of 1000:1.

Fucking idiot.

 

[ConHog]

FWIW, this is Shari'ah governance:

The term caliphate (from the Arabic خلافة or khilāfa) refers to the first system of governance established in Islam. The most common translation for the word which appears in the Quran is vicegerency (or caretaker). It is a constitutional republic, which means that the rulers are bound by a set of laws which they cannot break at a whim, and the people have the right to appoint their leader through their local leaders and should the leaders divert from their obligations as vicegerents, the people have the right to remove them.

It was initially led by Prophet Muhammad's companions as a continuation of the political authority the Prophet established, known in Arabic as Khulufaa'u Rashidin or English 'Rashidun Caliphate (Rightly Guided Caliphate)'. It represented the political and theological unity of the Muslim Ummah, and was the world's first major welfare state. A "caliphate" is also a state which implements such a government.

Sunni Islam dictates that the head of state, the caliph, should be selected by Shura - elected by Muslims or their representatives....

The Rashidun Caliphate is the archetypal Islamic government. That type of society will not be established in the United States unless the American people desire it (and they clearly do not.) Our goal is to establish Shari'ah in the so-called Muslim world, not in a country whose population is at most 1% Islamic. Do yourselves a favor and find a legitimate cause for concern.

Why no link? Is it because the last time you linked to that site I used it to prove that they agree that Sharia law trumps the Constitution, and every secular government in the world?

If you go back and read Kalam's posts very carefully he's a radical Muslim. Or as we who live in the real word know them, just an average Muslim.

 

[ConHog]

I wish Ravi would marry a fundamentalist Muslim, it would do her some good.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Article of faith ,you think he can read.
Damn you really are the man.
Enjoy an old song.

YouTube - crack the sky dog city

An even older on I think

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPXdaffq5bw]YouTube - Crack the Sky From the Greenhouse[/ame]

 

[Kalam]

FWIW, this is Shari'ah governance:

The term caliphate (from the Arabic خلافة or khilāfa) refers to the first system of governance established in Islam. The most common translation for the word which appears in the Quran is vicegerency (or caretaker). It is a constitutional republic, which means that the rulers are bound by a set of laws which they cannot break at a whim, and the people have the right to appoint their leader through their local leaders and should the leaders divert from their obligations as vicegerents, the people have the right to remove them.

It was initially led by Prophet Muhammad's companions as a continuation of the political authority the Prophet established, known in Arabic as Khulufaa'u Rashidin or English 'Rashidun Caliphate (Rightly Guided Caliphate)'. It represented the political and theological unity of the Muslim Ummah, and was the world's first major welfare state. A "caliphate" is also a state which implements such a government.

Sunni Islam dictates that the head of state, the caliph, should be selected by Shura - elected by Muslims or their representatives....

The Rashidun Caliphate is the archetypal Islamic government. That type of society will not be established in the United States unless the American people desire it (and they clearly do not.) Our goal is to establish Shari'ah in the so-called Muslim world, not in a country whose population is at most 1% Islamic. Do yourselves a favor and find a legitimate cause for concern.

Why no link?

Because I thought it was rather obvious that the excerpt came from Wikipedia. Ravi did the same thing a few posts earlier and I followed suit. Need me to give you that link, or are you a big enough boy to find it on your own?

Is it because the last time you linked to that site I used it to prove that they agree that Sharia law trumps the Constitution, and every secular government in the world?

Nope.

 

[Kalam]

FWIW, this is Shari'ah governance:

The term caliphate (from the Arabic خلافة or khilāfa) refers to the first system of governance established in Islam. The most common translation for the word which appears in the Quran is vicegerency (or caretaker). It is a constitutional republic, which means that the rulers are bound by a set of laws which they cannot break at a whim, and the people have the right to appoint their leader through their local leaders and should the leaders divert from their obligations as vicegerents, the people have the right to remove them.

It was initially led by Prophet Muhammad's companions as a continuation of the political authority the Prophet established, known in Arabic as Khulufaa'u Rashidin or English 'Rashidun Caliphate (Rightly Guided Caliphate)'. It represented the political and theological unity of the Muslim Ummah, and was the world's first major welfare state. A "caliphate" is also a state which implements such a government.

Sunni Islam dictates that the head of state, the caliph, should be selected by Shura - elected by Muslims or their representatives....

The Rashidun Caliphate is the archetypal Islamic government. That type of society will not be established in the United States unless the American people desire it (and they clearly do not.) Our goal is to establish Shari'ah in the so-called Muslim world, not in a country whose population is at most 1% Islamic. Do yourselves a favor and find a legitimate cause for concern.

Why no link?

Because I thought it was rather obvious that the excerpt came from Wikipedia. Ravi did the same thing a few posts earlier and I followed suit. Need me to give you that link, or are you a big enough boy to find it on your own?

Is it because the last time you linked to that site I used it to prove that they agree that Sharia law trumps the Constitution, and every secular government in the world?

Nope. You haven't really "proved" anything in any discussion with me other than that you have a tendency to throw temper tantrums whenever Islam is being discussed.

 

[Kalam]

Kalam doesn't like links or scripture in his posts...

And the "laughably ironic post of the day" award goes to....

 

[ConHog]

wonder if Kalam will be dinged for not posting his source.