Two cultures: Hunters and Gatherers vs Free Stuff

[Foxfyre]

As an adult American, you have a fundamental right to be provided:

1. Food
2. Clothing
3. Shelter/housing
4. Furniture/appliances
5. Water, heat, air conditioning
6. An education
7. Health care/medical care
8. A living wage
9. Transportation
10. None of the above


Fifty or sixty years ago, the nation still had rich people and much less affluent people, but both groups shared essentially the same traditional values of honor, personal integrity, accountablility and responsibility and appreciation for time honored institutions of marriage, church, and local education. There were as many different circumstances, personalities and differences of opinion as ever, but essentially America was one culture of individual initiative and unlimited opportunity. This was a people that valued personal freedoms, integrity, responsibility, fiscal accountability, and American exceptionalism.

But over the decades we seem to be dividing into two distinct cultures. One is still firmly implanted in that culture of fifty/sixty years ago. The other is one that increasingly looks to society to fulfill their expectations and their basic needs. It is a culture of assumed victimization, excuses, sense of entitlement, blame, and resentment of those who seem to have already achieved the American dream. Concern for deficits, the national debt, the cost, results, or effect is not as important as meeting the needs and wants of the group.

And while of course there will be degrees of dynamics between these two extremes, the theory is that we have become two tribes. One are the hunters and gatherers as a matter of personal honor. The other are those who want the free stuff and honestly believe that the best society provides it.

Agree or disagree. I do think it is time that America has this debate.

(Can we keep this reasonably civil please?)

 

[PoliticalChic]

As an adult American, you have a fundamental right to be provided:

1. Food
2. Clothing
3. Shelter/housing
4. Furniture/appliances
5. Water, heat, air conditioning
6. An education
7. Health care/medical care
8. A living wage
9. Transportation
10. None of the above


Fifty or sixty years ago, the nation still had rich people and much less affluent people, but both groups shared essentially the same traditional values of honor, personal integrity, accountablility and responsibility and appreciation for time honored institutions of marriage, church, and local education. There were as many different circumstances, personalities and differences of opinion as ever, but essentially America was one culture of individual initiative and unlimited opportunity. This was a people that valued personal freedoms, integrity, responsibility, fiscal accountability, and American exceptionalism.

But over the decades we seem to be dividing into two distinct cultures. One is still firmly implanted in that culture of fifty/sixty years ago. The other is one that increasingly looks to society to fulfill their expectations and their basic needs. It is a culture of assumed victimization, excuses, sense of entitlement, blame, and resentment of those who seem to have already achieved the American dream. Concern for deficits, the national debt, the cost, results, or effect is not as important as meeting the needs and wants of the group.

And while of course there will be degrees of dynamics between these two extremes, the theory is that we have become two tribes. One are the hunters and gatherers as a matter of personal honor. The other are those who want the free stuff and honestly believe that the best society provides it.

Agree or disagree. I do think it is time that America has this debate.

(Can we keep this reasonably civil please?)

I love your thread.

January 11, 1944 FDR assigned various 'rights' to Americans.

Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.

But, these are hardly rights.
Rights are God-given, and require no one else to participate in their assignment. Speech is a right.

Entitlements require that someone provide same, and, most often, that others be deprived of something in order to provide the entitlement.
The huge tax burden necessary to provide the ‘rights’ and fund federal welfare programs can be laid at the feet of the New Deal. Before 1940, only 5% of Americans paid any income tax, and the maximum was 25%. By the end of WWII, 2/3 of American families paid income tax- and it started at 24%, with a $500 exemption.

a. It went up to 94% over $200k. So, if one earned $300k, one kept only $6000 of the last $100k.

b. Withholding was re-introduced so the government got the money immediately. (Had been repealed in 1916.)

The attitude of the FDR government can be seen in these words of A.B. “Happy” Chandler, a former Kentucky governor:
“[A]ll of us owe the government; we owe it for everything we have—and that is the basis of obligation—and the government can take everything we have if the government needs it. . . . The government can assert its right to have all the taxes it needs for any purpose, either now or at any time in the future.”
From "FDR Goes To War," by Burton and Anita Folsom

 

[LordBrownTrout]

As an adult American, you have a fundamental right to be provided:

1. Food
2. Clothing
3. Shelter/housing
4. Furniture/appliances
5. Water, heat, air conditioning
6. An education
7. Health care/medical care
8. A living wage
9. Transportation
10. None of the above


Fifty or sixty years ago, the nation still had rich people and much less affluent people, but both groups shared essentially the same traditional values of honor, personal integrity, accountablility and responsibility and appreciation for time honored institutions of marriage, church, and local education. There were as many different circumstances, personalities and differences of opinion as ever, but essentially America was one culture of individual initiative and unlimited opportunity. This was a people that valued personal freedoms, integrity, responsibility, fiscal accountability, and American exceptionalism.

But over the decades we seem to be dividing into two distinct cultures. One is still firmly implanted in that culture of fifty/sixty years ago. The other is one that increasingly looks to society to fulfill their expectations and their basic needs. It is a culture of assumed victimization, excuses, sense of entitlement, blame, and resentment of those who seem to have already achieved the American dream. Concern for deficits, the national debt, the cost, results, or effect is not as important as meeting the needs and wants of the group.

And while of course there will be degrees of dynamics between these two extremes, the theory is that we have become two tribes. One are the hunters and gatherers as a matter of personal honor. The other are those who want the free stuff and honestly believe that the best society provides it.

Agree or disagree. I do think it is time that America has this debate.

(Can we keep this reasonably civil please?)

10.

We have the right to personal security, personal liberty, and private property. These three do not depend on any constitution. Every man or woman is entitled to these rights.

 

[Foxfyre]

So is FDR's list that PC posted what most of us believe?

Or should there be a qualifier in there, something to the effect that All Americans have the right to equal opportunity to ASPIRE to all the items on FDR's list? That would not necessarily assume that everybody starts out with the same advantages.

 

[uscitizen]

A right to what? Justice.

 

[bayoubill]

As an adult American, you have a fundamental right to be provided:

1. Food
2. Clothing
3. Shelter/housing
4. Furniture/appliances
5. Water, heat, air conditioning
6. An education
7. Health care/medical care
8. A living wage
9. Transportation
10. None of the above


Fifty or sixty years ago, the nation still had rich people and much less affluent people, but both groups shared essentially the same traditional values of honor, personal integrity, accountablility and responsibility and appreciation for time honored institutions of marriage, church, and local education. There were as many different circumstances, personalities and differences of opinion as ever, but essentially America was one culture of individual initiative and unlimited opportunity. This was a people that valued personal freedoms, integrity, responsibility, fiscal accountability, and American exceptionalism.

But over the decades we seem to be dividing into two distinct cultures. One is still firmly implanted in that culture of fifty/sixty years ago. The other is one that increasingly looks to society to fulfill their expectations and their basic needs. It is a culture of assumed victimization, excuses, sense of entitlement, blame, and resentment of those who seem to have already achieved the American dream. Concern for deficits, the national debt, the cost, results, or effect is not as important as meeting the needs and wants of the group.

And while of course there will be degrees of dynamics between these two extremes, the theory is that we have become two tribes. One are the hunters and gatherers as a matter of personal honor. The other are those who want the free stuff and honestly believe that the best society provides it.

Agree or disagree. I do think it is time that America has this debate.

(Can we keep this reasonably civil please?)

you forgot to mention the right to have spell-checks for headers on discussion sites...

 

[Nosmo King]

As an adult American, you have a fundamental right to be provided:

1. Food
2. Clothing
3. Shelter/housing
4. Furniture/appliances
5. Water, heat, air conditioning
6. An education
7. Health care/medical care
8. A living wage
9. Transportation
10. None of the above


Fifty or sixty years ago, the nation still had rich people and much less affluent people, but both groups shared essentially the same traditional values of honor, personal integrity, accountablility and responsibility and appreciation for time honored institutions of marriage, church, and local education. There were as many different circumstances, personalities and differences of opinion as ever, but essentially America was one culture of individual initiative and unlimited opportunity. This was a people that valued personal freedoms, integrity, responsibility, fiscal accountability, and American exceptionalism.

But over the decades we seem to be dividing into two distinct cultures. One is still firmly implanted in that culture of fifty/sixty years ago. The other is one that increasingly looks to society to fulfill their expectations and their basic needs. It is a culture of assumed victimization, excuses, sense of entitlement, blame, and resentment of those who seem to have already achieved the American dream. Concern for deficits, the national debt, the cost, results, or effect is not as important as meeting the needs and wants of the group.

And while of course there will be degrees of dynamics between these two extremes, the theory is that we have become two tribes. One are the hunters and gatherers as a matter of personal honor. The other are those who want the free stuff and honestly believe that the best society provides it.

Agree or disagree. I do think it is time that America has this debate.

(Can we keep this reasonably civil please?)

What evidence can you present that the privileged class still is implanted in that culture of fifty/sixty years ago? If they are keepers of traditional values of honor, personal integrity, accountability and responsibility and appreciation for time honored institutions of marriage, church, and local education, why are there folks who take multi million dollar bonuses after their companies lay off hundreds of thousands? Why would they cut so many jobs if they are encumbered with the virtues of personal integrity, accountability and responsibility? Communities have been shattered as a result of their decisions to favor Asian labor over American.

And local education is vilified by that class as indoctrination and ineffective.

I can see how it would be easy to dismiss the less advantaged as leeches. A certain level of contempt for those one views as lower in social and economic status is expected from those who think they have no responsibility to those who they themselves have taken advantage of. Like emotional scar tissue, it's helpful to minimize the p[light of the poor to insulate against the guilt after plundering them.

I don't think the advantaged have retained the high moral ground. I think they stole it.

 

[uscitizen]

Capitalism started it all with it's "you deserve" advertising themes.

 

[bripat9643]

January 11, 1944 FDR assigned various 'rights' to Americans.

Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.

The Soviet Constitution included the same list of "rights."

 

[bripat9643]

Capitalism started it all with it's "you deserve" advertising themes.

Yeah, right, we have welfare because of corporate marketing strategy.

 

[Foxfyre]

As an adult American, you have a fundamental right to be provided:

1. Food
2. Clothing
3. Shelter/housing
4. Furniture/appliances
5. Water, heat, air conditioning
6. An education
7. Health care/medical care
8. A living wage
9. Transportation
10. None of the above


Fifty or sixty years ago, the nation still had rich people and much less affluent people, but both groups shared essentially the same traditional values of honor, personal integrity, accountablility and responsibility and appreciation for time honored institutions of marriage, church, and local education. There were as many different circumstances, personalities and differences of opinion as ever, but essentially America was one culture of individual initiative and unlimited opportunity. This was a people that valued personal freedoms, integrity, responsibility, fiscal accountability, and American exceptionalism.

But over the decades we seem to be dividing into two distinct cultures. One is still firmly implanted in that culture of fifty/sixty years ago. The other is one that increasingly looks to society to fulfill their expectations and their basic needs. It is a culture of assumed victimization, excuses, sense of entitlement, blame, and resentment of those who seem to have already achieved the American dream. Concern for deficits, the national debt, the cost, results, or effect is not as important as meeting the needs and wants of the group.

And while of course there will be degrees of dynamics between these two extremes, the theory is that we have become two tribes. One are the hunters and gatherers as a matter of personal honor. The other are those who want the free stuff and honestly believe that the best society provides it.

Agree or disagree. I do think it is time that America has this debate.

(Can we keep this reasonably civil please?)

What evidence can you present that the privileged class still is implanted in that culture of fifty/sixty years ago? If they are keepers of traditional values of honor, personal integrity, accountability and responsibility and appreciation for time honored institutions of marriage, church, and local education, why are there folks who take multi million dollar bonuses after their companies lay off hundreds of thousands? Why would they cut so many jobs if they are encumbered with the virtues of personal integrity, accountability and responsibility? Communities have been shattered as a result of their decisions to favor Asian labor over American.

And local education is vilified by that class as indoctrination and ineffective.

I can see how it would be easy to dismiss the less advantaged as leeches. A certain level of contempt for those one views as lower in social and economic status is expected from those who think they have no responsibility to those who they themselves have taken advantage of. Like emotional scar tissue, it's helpful to minimize the p[light of the poor to insulate against the guilt after plundering them.

I don't think the advantaged have retained the high moral ground. I think they stole it.

First, there have always been unethical, dishonest, and unprincipled people in the world. There always will be unethical, dishonest, and unprincipled people in the world. These people exist among all socioeconomic and political classes. And in my opinion, they are pretty rare. We can choose to focus on these as a red herring to distract from the topic, or we can choose to focus on the topic which takes in all Americans rather than the few unethical, dishonest, and unprincipled to be found both among the rich and among the much less rich.

There is nothing in the OP that villifies education by anybody. Another red herring.

There is nothing in the OP that characterizes the less advantaged as leeches or which group holds the high moral ground. The third and fourth red herrings of your post.

The cultural divide is essentially a disparity between how we see people as deserving of anything. You may see the very rich who cut jobs as being undeserving. I may see the guy who won't take the unattractive job that would get him off food stamps as undeserving. I might take the Biblical view of he who will not work, let him not eat. You may take the Biblical view of he who feeds the one who is hungry serves the Lord.

There are two legitimate points of view to be debated here.

 

[konradv]

But, these are hardly rights.
Rights are God-given, and require no one else to participate in their assignment. Speech is a right.

A nice sentiment, perhaps, but in reality rights don't exist without a government to enforce them. "God-given" rights aren't worth much, if they can be violated with impunity. For example, if I'm stronger than you, you have the right to sit meekly by while I eat YOUR kill in hopes I might leave you some scraps.

I hope that helps and clears up your misconceptions about where rights come from.

 

[Nosmo King]

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.


These are all worthy and virtuous. The notion that they are Soviet inspired and therefore evil is further proof of the deterioration and abandonment of basic human goals and societal virtues by the far Right Wing.

The tenet of 'every man for himself' dismisses charity, respect and protection of those unable to compete and accomplish. What a pity.

And to think, those who espouse 'every man for himself' demand respect themselves after never showing an ounce of regard for anyone other than themselves.

 

[Foxfyre]

Capitalism started it all with it's "you deserve" advertising themes.

The pertinent part of your post might reflect on one of the dynamics of how we became two distinct cultures. (Which I am no longer as concerned about how we got here but rather how we best become one cohesive culture again.)

But unless that capitalist ad suggests that you, Citizen A, are obligated to buy the new car or a great vacation or an expensive camera or whatever for Citizen B because he 'deserves' it, your argument won't hold up in the debate.

 

[Foxfyre]

Capitalism started it all with it's "you deserve" advertising themes.

Yeah, right, we have welfare because of corporate marketing strategy.

Don't be too quick to dismiss marketing strategies as a component of what changed half of us into a different culture though.

 

[Sirkarl101]

What is the definition of HONOR for each of you. Killing for country? Protesting for peace?

 

[rightwinger]

As an adult American, you have a fundamental right to be provided:

1. Food
2. Clothing
3. Shelter/housing
4. Furniture/appliances
5. Water, heat, air conditioning
6. An education
7. Health care/medical care
8. A living wage
9. Transportation
10. None of the above


Fifty or sixty years ago, the nation still had rich people and much less affluent people, but both groups shared essentially the same traditional values of honor, personal integrity, accountablility and responsibility and appreciation for time honored institutions of marriage, church, and local education. There were as many different circumstances, personalities and differences of opinion as ever, but essentially America was one culture of individual initiative and unlimited opportunity. This was a people that valued personal freedoms, integrity, responsibility, fiscal accountability, and American exceptionalism.

But over the decades we seem to be dividing into two distinct cultures. One is still firmly implanted in that culture of fifty/sixty years ago. The other is one that increasingly looks to society to fulfill their expectations and their basic needs. It is a culture of assumed victimization, excuses, sense of entitlement, blame, and resentment of those who seem to have already achieved the American dream. Concern for deficits, the national debt, the cost, results, or effect is not as important as meeting the needs and wants of the group.

And while of course there will be degrees of dynamics between these two extremes, the theory is that we have become two tribes. One are the hunters and gatherers as a matter of personal honor. The other are those who want the free stuff and honestly believe that the best society provides it.

Agree or disagree. I do think it is time that America has this debate.

(Can we keep this reasonably civil please?)

I love your thread.

January 11, 1944 FDR assigned various 'rights' to Americans.

Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.

But, these are hardly rights.
Rights are God-given, and require no one else to participate in their assignment. Speech is a right.

Entitlements require that someone provide same, and, most often, that others be deprived of something in order to provide the entitlement.
The huge tax burden necessary to provide the ‘rights’ and fund federal welfare programs can be laid at the feet of the New Deal. Before 1940, only 5% of Americans paid any income tax, and the maximum was 25%. By the end of WWII, 2/3 of American families paid income tax- and it started at 24%, with a $500 exemption.

a. It went up to 94% over $200k. So, if one earned $300k, one kept only $6000 of the last $100k.

b. Withholding was re-introduced so the government got the money immediately. (Had been repealed in 1916.)

The attitude of the FDR government can be seen in these words of A.B. “Happy” Chandler, a former Kentucky governor:
“[A]ll of us owe the government; we owe it for everything we have—and that is the basis of obligation—and the government can take everything we have if the government needs it. . . . The government can assert its right to have all the taxes it needs for any purpose, either now or at any time in the future.”
From "FDR Goes To War," by Burton and Anita Folsom

FDR never proposed that those rights be given to every American for free but that every American has a right to expect to be able to obtain those necessities in life. When our society has reached a level where those basic rights are no longer obtainable by our citizens we need to reasses our priorities

 

[Misty]

None of the above.

 

[Dragon]

I checked every single box including "none of the above," and would have added "this poll is asking the wrong questions due to a completely non-factual view of reality and a meaningless false dichotomy between points of view, neither of which substantially exists in this society, nor has either of them existed for approximately ten thousand years" if it had allowed me to do so.

Since it didn't, I am adding those words here.

 

[uscitizen]

Capitalism started it all with it's "you deserve" advertising themes.

Yeah, right, we have welfare because of corporate marketing strategy.

It contributed to the problem.