Tussling Over Jesus

[Modbert]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general

Yet the person giving Jesus the heave-ho in this case was not a Bethlehem innkeeper. Nor was it an overzealous mayor angering conservatives by pulling down Christmas decorations. Rather, it was a prominent bishop, Thomas Olmsted, stripping St. Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix of its affiliation with the Roman Catholic diocese.

The hospital’s offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise.

Bishop Olmsted initially excommunicated a nun, Sister Margaret McBride, who had been on the hospital’s ethics committee and had approved of the decision. That seems to have been a failed attempt to bully the hospital into submission, but it refused to cave and continues to employ Sister Margaret. Now the bishop, in effect, is excommunicating the entire hospital — all because it saved a woman’s life.

Make no mistake: This clash of values is a bellwether of a profound disagreement that is playing out at many Catholic hospitals around the country. These hospitals are part of the backbone of American health care, amounting to 15 percent of hospital beds.

The National Women’s Law Center has just issued a report quoting doctors at Catholic-affiliated hospitals as saying that sometimes they are forced by church doctrine to provide substandard care to women with miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies in ways that can leave the women infertile or even endanger their lives. More clashes are likely as the church hierarchy grows more conservative, and as hospitals and laity grow more impatient with bishops who seem increasingly out of touch.

Thoughts USMB?

 

[Truthmatters]

women are not as important to some cultures

 

[elvis]

I heard about this story. I am no fan of the catholic church, but the nun and hospital knew the rules ahead of time. They are very clearly stated.

 

[Modbert]

I heard about this story. I am no fan of the catholic church, but the nun and hospital knew the rules ahead of time. They are very clearly stated.

They did know the rules, however, I definitely don't agree with what the church did here.

Also, what are your thoughts on the second story in the article? Specifically, this one:

The National Women’s Law Center has just issued a report quoting doctors at Catholic-affiliated hospitals as saying that sometimes they are forced by church doctrine to provide substandard care to women with miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies in ways that can leave the women infertile or even endanger their lives.

I have to wonder whether or how that is legal.

 

[elvis]

I heard about this story. I am no fan of the catholic church, but the nun and hospital knew the rules ahead of time. They are very clearly stated.

They did know the rules, however, I definitely don't agree with what the church did here.

Also, what are your thoughts on the second story in the article? Specifically, this one:

The National Women’s Law Center has just issued a report quoting doctors at Catholic-affiliated hospitals as saying that sometimes they are forced by church doctrine to provide substandard care to women with miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies in ways that can leave the women infertile or even endanger their lives.

I have to wonder whether or how that is legal.

The catholic church and the hospital has to be sure the doctor is performing an ectopic pregnancy procedure and not an abortion.... so you may have people sticking their noses in who don't belong, which can make the doctor's job difficult.

 

[RadiomanATL]

Tussling over Jesus?

Sounds like priest on priest ghey wrestling.

 

[syrenn]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general

Yet the person giving Jesus the heave-ho in this case was not a Bethlehem innkeeper. Nor was it an overzealous mayor angering conservatives by pulling down Christmas decorations. Rather, it was a prominent bishop, Thomas Olmsted, stripping St. Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix of its affiliation with the Roman Catholic diocese.

The hospital’s offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise.

Bishop Olmsted initially excommunicated a nun, Sister Margaret McBride, who had been on the hospital’s ethics committee and had approved of the decision. That seems to have been a failed attempt to bully the hospital into submission, but it refused to cave and continues to employ Sister Margaret. Now the bishop, in effect, is excommunicating the entire hospital — all because it saved a woman’s life.

Make no mistake: This clash of values is a bellwether of a profound disagreement that is playing out at many Catholic hospitals around the country. These hospitals are part of the backbone of American health care, amounting to 15 percent of hospital beds.

The National Women’s Law Center has just issued a report quoting doctors at Catholic-affiliated hospitals as saying that sometimes they are forced by church doctrine to provide substandard care to women with miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies in ways that can leave the women infertile or even endanger their lives. More clashes are likely as the church hierarchy grows more conservative, and as hospitals and laity grow more impatient with bishops who seem increasingly out of touch.

Thoughts USMB?

Catholic hospitals are private hospitals. If you don't want religion taking a hand in your health care...find a different hospital.

Historically the mother can just die..they don't give a shit.

Religion has no business in making medical decisions. EVER. Good for the decisions that were made to save the mother. Fuck the chruch.

 

[elvis]

I heard about this story. I am no fan of the catholic church, but the nun and hospital knew the rules ahead of time. They are very clearly stated.

They did know the rules, however, I definitely don't agree with what the church did here.

Also, what are your thoughts on the second story in the article? Specifically, this one:

The National Women’s Law Center has just issued a report quoting doctors at Catholic-affiliated hospitals as saying that sometimes they are forced by church doctrine to provide substandard care to women with miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies in ways that can leave the women infertile or even endanger their lives.

I have to wonder whether or how that is legal.

what you have to understand it that the catholic church believes at the very least that the doctor, nun, and hospital played God in that situation, which they see as blasphemy.
The nun should not be surprised she was excommunicated.

 

[Madeline]

"Find another hospital" is an empty offer in many cases. Few patients understand these policies, and none can choose to relocate once the emergency has begun. Unless things have changed a whole lot, women choose their Ob/Gyns and deliver in whichever hospital they are affiliated with -- they dun make a heap big deal out of investigating hospitals.

It's despicable and if the stories of rendering women infertile without cause are true, it's criminal.

 

[syrenn]

"Find another hospital" is an empty offer in many cases. Few patients understand these policies, and none can choose to relocate once the emergency has begun. Unless things have changed a whole lot, women choose their Ob/Gyns and deliver in whichever hospital they are affiliated with -- they dun make a heap big deal out of investigating hospitals.

It's despicable and if the stories of rendering women infertile without cause are true, it's criminal.

Hello? Catholic hospital. Ya got nuns and persists running around. And yes you have a long time to think about where you deliver your baby. Somewhere where the decision for life may be made without your life being taken into account or somewhere your life comes first.

 

[Madeline]

"Find another hospital" is an empty offer in many cases. Few patients understand these policies, and none can choose to relocate once the emergency has begun. Unless things have changed a whole lot, women choose their Ob/Gyns and deliver in whichever hospital they are affiliated with -- they dun make a heap big deal out of investigating hospitals.

It's despicable and if the stories of rendering women infertile without cause are true, it's criminal.

Hello? Catholic hospital. Ya got nuns and persists running around. And yes you have a long time to think about where you deliver your baby. Somewhere where the decision for life may be made without your life being taken into account or somewhere your life comes first.

Mebbe these hospitals should lose their accreditation. That might secularize them pronto -- and save the lives of some female patients.

 

[syrenn]

"Find another hospital" is an empty offer in many cases. Few patients understand these policies, and none can choose to relocate once the emergency has begun. Unless things have changed a whole lot, women choose their Ob/Gyns and deliver in whichever hospital they are affiliated with -- they dun make a heap big deal out of investigating hospitals.

It's despicable and if the stories of rendering women infertile without cause are true, it's criminal.

Hello? Catholic hospital. Ya got nuns and persists running around. And yes you have a long time to think about where you deliver your baby. Somewhere where the decision for life may be made without your life being taken into account or somewhere your life comes first.

Mebbe these hospitals should lose their accreditation. That might secularize them pronto -- and save the lives of some female patients.

Why should they have their accreditation pulled? They did a fine job...saving the mother. Its the church that has a problem with that decision. In their view they should have let the mother die and save the baby.

As i said before...fuck the church. The hospital made the right decisions.

 

[amrchaos]

Why do you need a church to back a hospital?

If the christians do not want to save lives, then let someone else do it. This life (the actual life, not the "afterlife") is not of concern to the believers but the afterlife is, so why do the catholics and other christians have a hand in something that delays heaven?


The answer to that question is probably much more obvious than what the christians would claim.

 

[Dr.Drock]

I wonder what the catholic church thinks the perspective of her 4 children should be. Does the church think these kids are upset and that they wish their mother was dead and that they had another child who might have become a healthy living baby?

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know, if you're going to be a doctor, and you're going to run a hospital, the Hippocratic Oath should ALWAYS come before religion.

Doctors are supposed to save lives. If it's a toss up between the baby and the mother? The mother should win out as they've already got an established life with people that count on them.

 

[Madeline]

Hello? Catholic hospital. Ya got nuns and persists running around. And yes you have a long time to think about where you deliver your baby. Somewhere where the decision for life may be made without your life being taken into account or somewhere your life comes first.

Mebbe these hospitals should lose their accreditation. That might secularize them pronto -- and save the lives of some female patients.

Why should they have their accreditation pulled? They did a fine job...saving the mother. Its the church that has a problem with that decision. In their view they should have let the mother die and save the baby.

As i said before...fuck the church. The hospital made the right decisions.

Not this hospital, at least not for this incident. But any US hospital that cannot commit to saving the mother's life....yes.

 

[syrenn]

Mebbe these hospitals should lose their accreditation. That might secularize them pronto -- and save the lives of some female patients.

Why should they have their accreditation pulled? They did a fine job...saving the mother. Its the church that has a problem with that decision. In their view they should have let the mother die and save the baby.

As i said before...fuck the church. The hospital made the right decisions.

Not this hospital, at least not for this incident. But any US hospital that cannot commit to saving the mother's life....yes.

Its not that simple. There are two lives at stake. The issue is whos life do you choose.

You save the savable. You follow medical decisions, not religious decisions.

Hospitals need to decide if they are religious institutions or institutions of medicine. You are one or the other. You cannot be both.

 

[Anguille]

The National Women’s Law Center has just issued a report quoting doctors at Catholic-affiliated hospitals as saying that sometimes they are forced by church doctrine to provide substandard care to women with miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies in ways that can leave the women infertile or even endanger their lives. More clashes are likely as the church hierarchy grows more conservative, and as hospitals and laity grow more impatient with bishops who seem increasingly out of touch.

Thoughts USMB?

If priests and popes could get pregnant it would be a completely different story.

 

[syrenn]

The National Women’s Law Center has just issued a report quoting doctors at Catholic-affiliated hospitals as saying that sometimes they are forced by church doctrine to provide substandard care to women with miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies in ways that can leave the women infertile or even endanger their lives. More clashes are likely as the church hierarchy grows more conservative, and as hospitals and laity grow more impatient with bishops who seem increasingly out of touch.

Thoughts USMB?

If priests and popes could get pregnant it would be a completely different story.

Bingo!

 

[logical4u]

If you are interested in the other side, so far, it looks like there is no interest in that.

Catholic sister told Phoenix bishop abortion was allowed by Church teaching :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

"A religious sister who was on a Catholic hospital panel that approved a direct abortion has excommunicated herself, the Diocese of Phoenix said on Tuesday"

"In addition, the diocese said that in this situation it was “clear” that St. Joseph’s Hospital was “not faithful to Catholic moral teaching” as outlined in the Ethical and Religious Directives (ERDs). Catholic Healthcare West, the hospital system of which St. Joseph’s is a part, has not followed the ERDs in at least one of their institutions, Chandler Regional Hospital.

According to the diocese, Bishop of Phoenix Thomas Olmsted is attempting to work with the hospital to help them fulfill requirements of self-identified Catholic institutions."

Imagine, the NYT not presenting the "full picture".

It is one thing to perform an abortion to save the mother. It is another to make a false claim that is clearly against the church's teaching.