Turkish PM leaves stage during debate with Peres over Gaza

[Annie]

On the blow up and what it portends:

» Behind the blow-out at Davos Middle East Strategy at Harvard

Behind the blow-out at Davos
Feb 2nd, 2009 by MESH
From Michael Reynolds

...

The fact that they enjoyed close ties to the United States facilitated their cooperation; indeed, their bilateral ties cannot be understood in isolation from their ties with America. Their pro-American orientation was reinforced by their identification with liberal democracy and even lent their relationship a broader “civilizational” sheen. Finally, their cooperation was complementary in very practical ways in a number of areas, ranging from the military-security field to planned projects to bring natural gas and water to Israel.

Beginnings of estrangement. Recent years, however, have seen a definite deterioration in Turkish-Israeli ties. Several reasons explain this, but perhaps the most fundamental lies in the post-9/11 shift in United States’ policy under George Bush from support of the status quo in the Middle East to revision of it through the toppling of multiple regimes in the Middle East, starting with Saddam Hussein’s. Although no one in Washington even imagined targeting the Turkish Republic in the project to remake the “Greater Middle East”—to the contrary, American policy makers saw the goal of creating more secular, democratic, and thus pro-American regimes as one complementary to Turkish interests—Turkish opinion across the board was profoundly skeptical of American motives and fearful of American plans.

Not a few Turks, including those in think tanks and the military, believed that the ultimate target of Operation Iraqi Freedom was not Middle Eastern despotism but the Turkish Republic. Once the United States was in Iraq, it would proceed to incite and agitate Kurdish groups inside Turkey. Then, in the name of democracy, it would detach Turkey’s eastern provinces to form a Kurdish state. By breaking the Middle East up into a greater number of smaller, more pliable, states, the United States could maintain its hegemony over the Middle East more easily. Because Israel, in turn, would be a prime beneficiary of this fracturing of Middle Eastern states, it was seen as complicit in this project.

It is an utterly fantastic, not to mention paranoid, reading of U.S. (and Israeli) policies and capabilities. But it is a worldview embedded in the institutions of the Turkish Republic, from the schools to the Turkish military....

 

[Shogun]

yea! considering Operation: Iraqi Oil and the creation of israel is SURE IS a far, paranoid fetch to imagine anything but the most benevolent of motives by the west!

 

[ekrem]

(...)
I'll say that Turkey is a growing and important regional power, however to think that either the US or Israel is intimidated by Turkish might would be an exercise in hubris.

I will write some 15 lines of military intimidation, then i will move on to more concrete things of interest.
---------------------------------
Sheer potential does not intimidate, because the potential of 2 countires do co-exist.
Intimidation happens, when the potentials of 2 countries are on collision course.
Who has more potential will take the initiative resulting in limiting the action-zone of the other country.
Turkey does take such initiatives neither against USA nor Israel. So there is no reason of feeling initimidated. On the other hand Israel does also not take initiatives against Turkey.

Would Israel and Turkey take initiatives against each other, then we can discuss in who has to be intimidated by the other one. And this off course will not be Turkey as Israel has no bullying power against Turkey in economical terms and military terms, leaving Nuclear Bombs aside. Turkey does not face any invasion threat by Israel, whilst Turkey is capable of following:

At a short notice, Turkish Army can deploy an Army Corps of 40 (forty) or 50.000 (fifty thousand) troops to conduct joint operations. It can deploy a force consisting of six battalions to distant targets in a very short time by day and night air-landed operations.

Turkish General Staff

Israelian Navy consists of
- 3 corvettes
- 3 submarines
Israeli navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Turkish Navy consists of
- 19 Frigates
- 7 Corvettes
- 14 submarines
Turkish Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plus Turkish Navy has ordered
- 6 new submarines
UPDATE 3-Turkey in $4 bln submarines deal with HDW | Reuters
- 8 new Frigates
TF2000 class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F-100 class frigate
- 8 new corvettes
Milgem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plus we have 33 missile boats with 16 new ordered, all equipped with Harpoon Navy missiles with a range of 315 KM. After USA Turkey has most Harpoon missiles in inventory.

We would sink Israelian Navy within hours and blockade Israelian interaction with the world by sea instantly, provided that no outside power meddles into the conflict. Such outside power (USA) would have the burden of a massive effort to sink Turkish Navy. We are the biggest Naval Power in our area, designed to sink the Navies of neighbouring countries simultaneously.
----------------------------------


That was now a bit too military related. Let us come to politics. The future predictions of what awaits Israel is not definite. These predictions range from territorial changes over regional war to changes of economical survivavbility, as Israelian Army is partly financed from outside (USA+Germany). Israel is alone in this region, its policies are shaped as reaction to the policies of other surrounding countries. The decades where Israelian policy shaped the policies of surrounding countries is over. These days Israelian policy is reaction to being challenged by Iran. The last years show that it is Iran who is kicking foot into Israelian comfort zone, not the other way round. With growing Iranian economical capabilities and growing Iranian military capabilities this trend will follow on.
Israel can not handle a conflict with Turkey.

Turkey does want peace in this area. When we make peace initiatives this weakens Israel's political stance. Take the Syrian-Israel negotiations. That country who sabotages the peace talks is automatically labeled as that country who is the "bad guy". Peace with Syria means Israelian withdrawal from Golan heights. I do not think Israel does want to abandon Golan. It was clear from the beginning that if Israel takes move into Gaza this would have consequences for the Syrian-Israelian peace negotiations. As a consequence Syria stopped peace negotiations with Israel. So this was pre-calculated by Israel, and as such a disrespect to the activities of Turkey. Israel has produced a period of status-quo with Syria. Israel does not want peace with Syria. Peace means territorial changes for Israel.

Now, will this go on eternally this whole shit in Middle East? From our view this must stop. And here we have to highlight that since Arafat's death the developments were in favor of Israel. Israel now dealt with 2 "Palestinian Authorities" Fatah+Hamas, whilst both Authorities worked against each other, resulting in weakening of the common cause: A Palestinian state.
This overlapped with Bush's "Anti-Terrorism War" and a generally perception that Israel was fighting Islamic Terrorism. In such atmosphere Israel was easily to make concentration camps, building walls, building new settlements, expanding further its territory.
In such atmosphere no one talked about how many per cent since 1948 Israel expanded its territory into Palestine, no one talking of East-Jerusalem as a capital of a to be established Palestine.

Palestine is a issue which influences muslim's feelings. You can answer yourself if such atmosphere has made the world safer by taking out frustration (a path to radicalization).
##The whole atmosphere and discussion is currently fixed on missiles, an equation of Gaza being satan's place on earth. Moderate forces in the world do only talk about reconstruction of Israelian made damage in Gaza.##
If Obama wants to restore US image/presence in the Muslim World, he has to work for peace and bring the whole issue to where we once were before talking such atmosphere ##---##.
Advancement can only be achieved when Fatah+Hamas once and for all overcome their problems. Arabs did negotiate between them, but it did not have an outcome. Arabs as authocratic regimes not representing the streets, do anyway cook their own soup. They have problems with Hamas, Hamas is isolated in the Arab world.
I think that Turkey will make a move in this direction of bringing the two parties on the table. And this is what Israel fears most, a unified entity again moveing on on questions of establishing Palestine.

Our presence in this region is eternal and growingly more dominant. Our future is not relying on annuity-fixed petroleum incomes, but on a flourishing economy which generates taxes. We have the biggest economy and the biggest industrial base.
In the past there was talk of Turkey not haveing soft-power over Arab world because Ottoman past. This perception is not valid. Turkey's stand in this region has to the "hard power" factor now also the "soft power" factor. The non-military involvement of Turkey in the region is proof of this.

Arabs watch daily "Turkish Way of Life".

85 million Arabs watched the Turkish soap opera Noor
85 million Arabs watched the Turkish soap opera Noor | jazarah!

67 million Arabs watched the Turkish soap opera Sanawat Al Daya’a
67 million Arabs watched the Turkish soap opera Sanawat Al Daya’a

Al Jazeera does produce news stories the most in Washington, then in Ankara:

The Ankara Bureau of Al Jazeera is second only to Al Jazeera's Washington Bureau among the news agency's non-Arab offices, in terms of the number of news stories filed. Evidently, viewers of Al Jazeera care about what is going on in Turkey.

The economical interaction is raising:

Turkish exports to neighbouring countries rose by 35.5 per cent last year reaching $40.5 billion, according to figures released by the Under Secretariat for Foreign Trade.

 

[ekrem]

Turkey is also one of the leading shipbuilding nations; in 2007 the country ranked 4th in the world (behind China, South Korea and Japan) in terms of the number of ordered ships, and also 4th in the world (behind Italy, USA and Canada) in terms of the number of ordered mega yachts.[17]
Economy of Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If there is war, shipbuilding industry will get nationalized.

 

[ekrem]

On Friday, the Israeli daily Haaretz reported that Maj. Gen. Avi Mizrahi, a veteran professional officer, called on Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan to look in the mirror.
The Israeli General took a step further and accused Turkey of "committing massacre of the Armenians as well as the suppression of the Kurds". Maj. Gen. Avi Mizrahi also mentioned the so-called Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus, according to the report.

The Turkish army issued a statement on Saturday to slam Mizrahi over his words.
"These remarks, as the way they were published in the media reports, are considered to be misleading the facts, unfortunate, unacceptable and more importantly in an extent that could harm the national interests between two countries," the army said in a statement posted on its Web site.
The military also called on the Israeli army, "which is considered to be attaching great importance to its relations with the Turkish Armed Forces", to clarify Mizrahi's statement.

Turkish General Staff Official Web Site - Main Page

This Israelian general is Commenader of the standing forces of Israel:
http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/about/staff/Avi_Mizrahi.htm
Turkish General Staff is requesting clarificance from Israelian General Staff, also saying that unclarified situation could harm national interests of both countries. In other words Turkish general staff is demanding action (retirement) of Israelian General.

 

[toomuchtime_]

On Friday, the Israeli daily Haaretz reported that Maj. Gen. Avi Mizrahi, a veteran professional officer, called on Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan to look in the mirror.
The Israeli General took a step further and accused Turkey of "committing massacre of the Armenians as well as the suppression of the Kurds". Maj. Gen. Avi Mizrahi also mentioned the so-called Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus, according to the report.

The Turkish army issued a statement on Saturday to slam Mizrahi over his words.
"These remarks, as the way they were published in the media reports, are considered to be misleading the facts, unfortunate, unacceptable and more importantly in an extent that could harm the national interests between two countries," the army said in a statement posted on its Web site.
The military also called on the Israeli army, "which is considered to be attaching great importance to its relations with the Turkish Armed Forces", to clarify Mizrahi's statement.

Turkish General Staff Official Web Site - Main Page

This Israelian general is Commenader of the standing forces of Israel:
http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/about/staff/Avi_Mizrahi.htm
Turkish General Staff is requesting clarificance from Israelian General Staff, also saying that unclarified situation could harm national interests of both countries. In other words Turkish general staff is demanding action (retirement) of Israelian General.

Well, I guess they have to do something when they're not out killing Armenians and Kurds, but this sort of thing just makes them look foolish.

 

[Shogun]

says the arab killer....

 

[ekrem]

Turkish Staff's statement on its website is short and very precise. The statement does not come from wavering opportunist politicians. The statement does come from an institution which does have precise constitutional duties and as such institution it is not imposed to the general election system. What Turkish Army says is being said ONLY in accordance of its constitutional duties, not needing to gain support from citizens by exploiting political issues.

And what Army says is this: What Turkey does with Cyprus, Armenians or Aliens is none of Israel's business. And voices comeing out from Israel ignoreing this rule of the game have consequences for the inter-securityinstitutional relations.

Turkey's military says the remarks "cannot be accepted under any condition" and "can harm national interests between the two countries."
Turkey demands Israel explain general's remarks - International Herald Tribune

The "can harm national interests between the two countries"-part takes effect when Israel General Staff does not take actions against such voices.


Turkish court opens probe over Israel over Gaza war crimes
An Office of the attorney general of city of Ankara opened an investigation into 18 Israeli officials, including Israeli President Shimon Peres, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, the army chief and the head of the military intelligence, Turkish media said.

The Organization of Human Rights and Solidarity for Oppressed People (Mazlumder) Istanbul Branch chairman Ayhan Küçük and other members and volunteers went on Jan 29 to Sultanahmet Court in İstanbul "to ask investigation for Israel's war crimes against humanity" for their involvement in Gaza massacre.

Mazlumder's indictment offered 134 names of the killed Gaza people under 18 age and charged Israeli officials to be responsible for these killings. The attorney, Vahit Civelek, based the probe on 13th clause of Turkish criminal law.

This will be the first probe in Turkey on crimes genocide commited in another country.

World Bulletin [ Turkish court opens probe over Israel over Gaza war crimes ]

 

[roomy]

The greedy Turkish bastard arse bandits are even taking advantage of the weak pound against the euro.I would nuke the place for that reason alone.

 

[ekrem]

The greedy Turkish bastard arse bandits are even taking advantage of the weak pound against the euro.I would nuke the place for that reason alone.

Maybe you are implying the acquisition of the biggest UK baby-clothing manufacturer by a Turkish company. But Turkey does not use € as currency and Turkish currency itself has lost value against both Pound and €.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Turkish Staff's statement on its website is short and very precise. The statement does not come from wavering opportunist politicians. The statement does come from an institution which does have precise constitutional duties and as such institution it is not imposed to the general election system. What Turkish Army says is being said ONLY in accordance of its constitutional duties, not needing to gain support from citizens by exploiting political issues.

And what Army says is this: What Turkey does with Cyprus, Armenians or Aliens is none of Israel's business. And voices comeing out from Israel ignoreing this rule of the game have consequences for the inter-securityinstitutional relations.

Turkey's military says the remarks "cannot be accepted under any condition" and "can harm national interests between the two countries."
Turkey demands Israel explain general's remarks - International Herald Tribune

The "can harm national interests between the two countries"-part takes effect when Israel General Staff does not take actions against such voices.


Turkish court opens probe over Israel over Gaza war crimes
An Office of the attorney general of city of Ankara opened an investigation into 18 Israeli officials, including Israeli President Shimon Peres, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, the army chief and the head of the military intelligence, Turkish media said.

The Organization of Human Rights and Solidarity for Oppressed People (Mazlumder) Istanbul Branch chairman Ayhan Küçük and other members and volunteers went on Jan 29 to Sultanahmet Court in İstanbul "to ask investigation for Israel's war crimes against humanity" for their involvement in Gaza massacre.

Mazlumder's indictment offered 134 names of the killed Gaza people under 18 age and charged Israeli officials to be responsible for these killings. The attorney, Vahit Civelek, based the probe on 13th clause of Turkish criminal law.

This will be the first probe in Turkey on crimes genocide commited in another country.

World Bulletin [ Turkish court opens probe over Israel over Gaza war crimes ]

Turkey's genocide against the Armenian people and its continuing persecution and slaughter of Kurds both inside of Turkey and outside is the concern of all civilized nations, and it is certainly more Israel's business than Israel's efforts to end the bombing of its civilians by Palestinian militants is Turkey's business. Given Turkey's long history of brutal persecutions of minorities and the second greatest genocide in history and its continuing war against the Kurds' legitimate nationalist aspirations, it is truly bizarre that Turkey should pretend it has any humanitarian concerns over the Palestinians, especially since Turkey was renowned for its brutal repression of these same people when it ruled the area. It's just ridiculous for Turkey to think anyone is taking them seriously.

This is all about Erdogan's ambition to turn Turkey away from the west and backward into the world of Islamic fundamentalism, and if the Turkish people follow him, it is certain to cost Turkey EU membership and the foreign capital it needs if its economy is to continue to grow.

 

[Shogun]

no, what is ridiculous is that a zionist like yourself would point a finger at Turkey given the turd you are constantly trying to polish.

the ironies of zionism strike AGAIN!

 

[mightypeon]

Just one addition Ekrem, I kinda doubt that the Turkish Navy could sink the Navies of its neighbouring states simultaneously. Although a bit out of shape, I would not take the Russian navy lightly.

 

[ekrem]

Just one addition Ekrem, I kinda doubt that the Turkish Navy could sink the Navies of its neighbouring states simultaneously. Although a bit out of shape, I would not take the Russian navy lightly.

I would recommend you to check the navies of neighbouring countries of Turkey.

Combined Navies
Syria, Israel, Iran, Saudi-Arabia
1 destroyer
7 submarines
13 Frigates
10 corvettes

Note: That Iranian Navy has most ships within the numbers given above, but most Iranian Ships shit vessels from 1960's + '70's
Syrian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Israeli navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of current ships of the Iranian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Royal Saudi Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Turkish Navy
14 submarines +6 ordered
19 Frigates + 8 ordered
7 Corvettes + 8 ordered
Turkish Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You see? Currently Turkish Navy is bigger then all of them combined.
Turkish Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
With all the new submarines, frigates and corvettes ordered the gap will widen.


Comeing to Russian Black Sea Fleet: as you mentioned
The source is Russian, but in German language
RIA Novosti - Analysen und Kommentare - Ein trauriges Jubiläum der Schwarzmeerflotte
Translation via Google:

As Admiral Igor Kassatonow, ex-commander of the Black Sea Fleet (1991 to 1992) claimed, today the potential of the Russian Black Sea battle fleet is inferior to the Turkish fleet in a ratio of 1:4. Turkey has 13 submarines and Russia only 1. Turkey has 26 Destroyers and Russia six.

Comments superfluous here says Admiral.

Turkish Navy is 3rd largest in Europe in terms of the displacement of the total fleet, with 258,948 tons.[2][3][4] Supported by its replenishment ships, the Turkish Navy can participate in international operations and exercises on every major sea and ocean of the world. Submarines can individually navigate up to 15,000 nautical miles (28,000 km) and return back to their home bases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_navy


Turkey opeates more German submarines then Germany itself
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Navy#Submarines

At present, the Turkish Navy is also the largest operator of German-designed submarines in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine

 

[Munin]

Just one addition Ekrem, I kinda doubt that the Turkish Navy could sink the Navies of its neighbouring states simultaneously. Although a bit out of shape, I would not take the Russian navy lightly.

I would recommend you to check the navies of neighbouring countries of Turkey.

Combined Navies
Syria, Israel, Iran, Saudi-Arabia
1 destroyer
7 submarines
13 Frigates
10 corvettes

Note: That Iranian Navy has most ships within the numbers given above, but most Iranian Ships shit vessels from 1960's + '70's
Syrian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Israeli navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of current ships of the Iranian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Royal Saudi Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Turkish Navy
14 submarines +6 ordered
19 Frigates + 8 ordered
7 Corvettes + 8 ordered
Turkish Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You see? Currently Turkish Navy is bigger then all of them combined.
Turkish Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
With all the new submarines, frigates and corvettes ordered the gap will widen.


Comeing to Russian Black Sea Fleet: as you mentioned
The source is Russian, but in German language
RIA Novosti - Analysen und Kommentare - Ein trauriges Jubiläum der Schwarzmeerflotte
Translation via Google:

As Admiral Igor Kassatonow, ex-commander of the Black Sea Fleet (1991 to 1992) claimed, today the potential of the Russian Black Sea battle fleet is inferior to the Turkish fleet in a ratio of 1:4. Turkey has 13 submarines and Russia only 1. Turkey has 26 Destroyers and Russia six.

Comments superfluous here says Admiral.

Turkish Navy is 3rd largest in Europe in terms of the displacement of the total fleet, with 258,948 tons.[2][3][4] Supported by its replenishment ships, the Turkish Navy can participate in international operations and exercises on every major sea and ocean of the world. Submarines can individually navigate up to 15,000 nautical miles (28,000 km) and return back to their home bases.
Turkish Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Turkey opeates more German submarines then Germany itself
German Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At present, the Turkish Navy is also the largest operator of German-designed submarines in the world.

Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why exactly does Turkey need such a big military force?

It costs loads of taxpayermoney and the Turks don't seem to use it much for anything anyway.

Also: the combined fleet & army of the EU beats Turkey without breaking a sweat (quality & quantity).

 

[ekrem]

Why exactly does Turkey need such a big military force?

It costs loads of taxpayermoney and the Turks don't seem to use it much for anything anyway.

Also: the combined fleet & army of the EU beats Turkey without breaking a sweat (quality & quantity).

There is nothing like a combined EU fleet or army. Would there be, EU would have stopped whole Jugoslavia (Bosnia) and Serbia (Kosovo) things without USA having to interfere. And we do not speak here of a conflict which was occurring far away from EU, but within Europe itself. Serbia lies 300 km airway distance from Bavaria (South Germany).

You can not just simply accumulate the armies of EU. As long as there is no common EU military, EU stays a paper tiger very far away from being a world power.

 

[Munin]

Why exactly does Turkey need such a big military force?

It costs loads of taxpayermoney and the Turks don't seem to use it much for anything anyway.

Also: the combined fleet & army of the EU beats Turkey without breaking a sweat (quality & quantity).

There is nothing like a combined EU fleet or army. Would there be, EU would have stopped whole Jugoslavia (Bosnia) and Serbia (Kosovo) things without USA having to interfere. And we do not speak here of a conflict which was occurring far away from EU, but within Europe itself. Serbia lies 300 km airway distance from Bavaria (South Germany).

You can not just simply accumulate the armies of EU. As long as there is no common EU military, EU stays a paper tiger very far away from being a world power.

You seem to know very, very little about the EU.

The EU ( European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) is in a phase between a group of nations and becoming one country: that is why there is a European court, a European bank, a European coin, a European constitution (that is being made at this very moment), a European leader, a European Parliament that makes laws that the member states have to abide by, a European commission which is an executive organ, the preparation of a unified European army, a European open border (no Customs service at the border between 2 European nations: people are free to move between 2 EU countries without have to stop at the border) policy, ...

Since 2004 the EU has began an effort to make an EU defense project:
EDA : Background


The EU of now did not even exist at that moment, back then it was a more economic organization. This has changed now, the EU is in a phase between being a whole country (similar to the US that also has states that are the size of EU member-states and also are able to still govern their own states ).

 

[ekrem]

Why exactly does Turkey need such a big military force?

It costs loads of taxpayermoney and the Turks don't seem to use it much for anything anyway.

Also: the combined fleet & army of the EU beats Turkey without breaking a sweat (quality & quantity).

There is nothing like a combined EU fleet or army. Would there be, EU would have stopped whole Jugoslavia (Bosnia) and Serbia (Kosovo) things without USA having to interfere. And we do not speak here of a conflict which was occurring far away from EU, but within Europe itself. Serbia lies 300 km airway distance from Bavaria (South Germany).

You can not just simply accumulate the armies of EU. As long as there is no common EU military, EU stays a paper tiger very far away from being a world power.

You seem to know very, very little about the EU.

The EU ( European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) is in a phase between a group of nations and becoming one country: that is why there is a European court, a European bank, a European coin, a European constitution (that is being made at this very moment), a European leader, a European Parliament that makes laws that the member states have to abide by, a European commission which is an executive organ, the preparation of a unified European army, a European open border (no Customs service at the border between 2 European nations: people are free to move between 2 EU countries without have to stop at the border) policy, ...

Since 2004 the EU has began an effort to make an EU defense project:
EDA : Background


The EU of now did not even exist at that moment, back then it was a more economic organization. This has changed now, the EU is in a phase between being a whole country (similar to the US that also has states that are the size of EU member-states and also are able to still govern their own states ).

Relevant is only the militaristic capabilities of the EU. Describing economical or political processes of EU do not count in this view, e.g. € or European Court.
At the end of the day, "EU Army" will be something of 25.000 soldiers size:
Battlegroup of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From 2010 on Turkey itself will contribute a joint Italian-Romanian-Turkish battlegroup for the army. Till then Turkey participates already without a joint battlegroup.

For example, Turkey’s contribution to Operation “Althea” in Bosnia-Herzegovina makes the country the third biggest contributor among all participants including the EU members and the biggest contributor among the non-EU participants.

Defence Turkey Magazine - all about Turkish Defence Industry, Online Articles

 

[Munin]

There is nothing like a combined EU fleet or army. Would there be, EU would have stopped whole Jugoslavia (Bosnia) and Serbia (Kosovo) things without USA having to interfere. And we do not speak here of a conflict which was occurring far away from EU, but within Europe itself. Serbia lies 300 km airway distance from Bavaria (South Germany).

You can not just simply accumulate the armies of EU. As long as there is no common EU military, EU stays a paper tiger very far away from being a world power.

You seem to know very, very little about the EU.

The EU ( European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) is in a phase between a group of nations and becoming one country: that is why there is a European court, a European bank, a European coin, a European constitution (that is being made at this very moment), a European leader, a European Parliament that makes laws that the member states have to abide by, a European commission which is an executive organ, the preparation of a unified European army, a European open border (no Customs service at the border between 2 European nations: people are free to move between 2 EU countries without have to stop at the border) policy, ...

Since 2004 the EU has began an effort to make an EU defense project:
EDA : Background


The EU of now did not even exist at that moment, back then it was a more economic organization. This has changed now, the EU is in a phase between being a whole country (similar to the US that also has states that are the size of EU member-states and also are able to still govern their own states ).

Relevant is only the militaristic capabilities of the EU. Describing economical or political processes of EU do not count in this view, e.g. € or European Court.
At the end of the day, "EU Army" will be something of 25.000 soldiers size:
Battlegroup of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From 2010 on Turkey itself will contribute a joint Italian-Romanian-Turkish battlegroup for the army. Till then Turkey participates already without a joint battlegroup.

For example, Turkey’s contribution to Operation “Althea” in Bosnia-Herzegovina makes the country the third biggest contributor among all participants including the EU members and the biggest contributor among the non-EU participants.

Defence Turkey Magazine - all about Turkish Defence Industry, Online Articles

The 25.000 soldiers size is the start of a project within this EU defense, this is not the end-goal. The end goal is to have a complete European army with all armies of EU-member states. The military capabilities of this EU army will make it the 2nd strongest army in the world (after the US). This military force will be the closest and most reliable military ally of the US, because the Europeans always sided with the US after WWII and always will in the future: one of the reasons is because we are in debt for the american aid to end WWII & the aid to defeat communist occupation/oppression (Eastern Europe). The other reason is because of the historic past the whole of America is like a child of Europe (a European creation), every European nation made the US to what it is today. That is why europeans feel very connected with Americans, because we literally are family of most Americans. Germans haven't forgot that US helped their country in its darkest days (berlin wall, ...), Dutch, French, Belgian and Italians have not forgotten that it were the Americans that liberated them (together with canadians, british, australian and ... troops) from the dictators and got the democracy back after the dictators took abuse of it. (the many important streets, ... in europe that are named after US presidents, other important americans all prove this)

 

[ekrem]

The 25.000 soldiers size is the start of a project within this EU defense, this is not the end-goal. The end goal is to have a complete European army with all armies of EU-member states. The military capabilities of this EU army will make it the 2nd strongest army in the world (after the US). This military force will be the closest and most reliable military ally of the US, because the Europeans always sided with the US after WWII and always will in the future: one of the reasons is because we are in debt for the american aid to end WWII & the aid to defeat communist occupation/oppression (Eastern Europe). The other reason is because of the historic past the whole of America is like a child of Europe (a European creation), every European nation made the US to what it is today. That is why europeans feel very connected with Americans, because we literally are family of most Americans. Germans haven't forgot that US helped their country in its darkest days (berlin wall, ...), Dutch, French, Belgian and Italians have not forgotten that it were the Americans that liberated them (together with canadians, british, australian and ... troops) from the dictators and got the democracy back after the dictators took abuse of it. (the many important streets, ... in europe that are named after US presidents, other important americans all prove this)

You describe as if all current nation states within the EU would give up their sovereignity on defence. There is no such thing.
EU defence is being established paralell to the nation state armies, and the size of such army will be very minimalistic. The existing armies of the nation state will not fusion.

Also EU defence strategies, the so-called ESDP, will not establish new capabilities, but rely on NATO structures. So EU army will be using existing capabilities of NATO structures within Europe.

Please read into the issue, on April will be NATO meeting where France officially will declare request to join again into NATO command structure. This motivation is because EU army will be useing NATO structures. And by the way your government itself takes the position that NATO has suprimacy in managing European Security. So ESDP will move to a structure which
1. uses NATO structures
2. thereby is complementary to NATO.
3. and a sub-structure of NATO

Otherwise USA will block EU using NATO capabilities. Will be nice question where EU would find the money from to establish new capabilities paralell to nation state armies, NATO and a new EU army. All in a financial crisis which is now being felt also in the real economy.
Turkey, if she wishes, can block also NATO-ESDP cooperation and French come-back to NATO's command structure.