Toyota Pulling the Plug on their All Electric Cars

[mamooth]

All Bullshit as expected. There is not a lot of difference between the substantial existing network of NAT GAS fueling stations and a hydrogen fueling station.

I think one network existing and one network not existing is a rather substantial difference. But then, I'm part of the reality-based community, as opposed to your fantasy-based community.

The natural gas fueling network isn't really for travelers. It's almost entirely used locally by buses and fleet vehicles. And that natural gas network grew incrementally out of the preexisting natural gas infrastructure. In contrast, there is no preexisting hydrogen infrastructure, and there's no financial incentive to make one.

Europe already has a "Hydrogen Highway" in place.

Which is basically vaporware, a few hundred stations for all of Europe.

And this BS about efficiency is totally unfounded. Fuel Cells are HIGHLY efficient and the rest of the EV car design is the same as for a plug-in..

One system uses electricity directly.

One system uses electricity to make hydrogen, hauls the hydrogen around, then uses a fuel cell to turn hydrogen back into electricity.

Those who possess any engineering common sense would recognize which is more efficient.

Now, you could offer the defense that hydrogen made from natural gas requires less electricity, but that's essentially turning the hydrogen vehicle into another type of fossil fuel machine, and makes this into an apples to oranges comparison.

The inefficiencies are in trying to move 30% more demand to an already INEFFICIENT and ANTIQUATED electric grid..

Handwaving and bad logic.

Grid losses are around 6%. That's peanuts compared to the other losses of the hydrogen system.

And the same grid has to supply the power to make the hydrogen, so that same loss factors into the fuel cell vehicles as well.

 

[danielpalos]

I hope this is the exception not the norm! The world needs the electric car revolution!

Who Killed The Electric Car? Toyota Now Tries For That Role - Forbes

CEO of Chrysler-Fiat came out last year and said on the Financial channels -- "PLEASE -- don't buy my electric car. We lose a ton of money on every one of them".. He beat Toyota to it..

But don't despair. The BETTER EV is in the wings. EVERY Korean car company, Kia, Hundai, etc -- skipped out of the plug-in car concept to make the leap to hydrogen fuel cells. And that addresses the major problems of range, fueling time, grid expansion expenses and a lot of others. Expect them to start growing sales next year..

Infrastructure upgrades must be considered a provision of the general welfare and have greater priority than public policies which deny and disparage Individual Liberty.

 

[flacaltenn]

All Bullshit as expected. There is not a lot of difference between the substantial existing network of NAT GAS fueling stations and a hydrogen fueling station.

I think one network existing and one network not existing is a rather substantial difference. But then, I'm part of the reality-based community, as opposed to your fantasy-based community.

The natural gas fueling network isn't really for travelers. It's almost entirely used locally by buses and fleet vehicles. And that natural gas network grew incrementally out of the preexisting natural gas infrastructure. In contrast, there is no preexisting hydrogen infrastructure, and there's no financial incentive to make one.

Europe already has a "Hydrogen Highway" in place.

Which is basically vaporware, a few hundred stations for all of Europe.

And this BS about efficiency is totally unfounded. Fuel Cells are HIGHLY efficient and the rest of the EV car design is the same as for a plug-in..

One system uses electricity directly.

One system uses electricity to make hydrogen, hauls the hydrogen around, then uses a fuel cell to turn hydrogen back into electricity.

Those who possess any engineering common sense would recognize which is more efficient.

Now, you could offer the defense that hydrogen made from natural gas requires less electricity, but that's essentially turning the hydrogen vehicle into another type of fossil fuel machine, and makes this into an apples to oranges comparison.

The inefficiencies are in trying to move 30% more demand to an already INEFFICIENT and ANTIQUATED electric grid..

Handwaving and bad logic.

Grid losses are around 6%. That's peanuts compared to the other losses of the hydrogen system.

And the same grid has to supply the power to make the hydrogen, so that same loss factors into the fuel cell vehicles as well.

Nope .. Narrow thinking.. A hydrogen fuel infrastructure is the best thing to ever happen to sketchy solar and wind alternatives. Because using these OFF-GRID for FREE (as the eco-left describes it) would cause a RUSH to businesses wanting to build that infrastructure. Solves the issues with wind and solar as they now have a valuable COMMODITY ITEM to store the sketchy energy that can't be economically stored as electricity..

And of course you've never looked at a map for the European Hydrogen Hiway. It's really not a bad start.
Vaporware eh? NO --- Elan Musk deals in vaporware..

With 400 to 500 mile ranges --- that service network is ALREADY workable.
But of COURSE -- After $Bills in subsidies ---- it will look a lot better -- won't it?

Also not a bad start in the US..

Already several models of Hydrogen EVs on the road here and in Europe. About 4 more PRODUCTION versions ready by end of 2016..


You know anyone who WOULDN'T want to take water and FREE electric power and make a commodity that they can sell for BIG $$$??

Oh yeah -- probably Mammy......

 

[flacaltenn]

I hope this is the exception not the norm! The world needs the electric car revolution!

Who Killed The Electric Car? Toyota Now Tries For That Role - Forbes

CEO of Chrysler-Fiat came out last year and said on the Financial channels -- "PLEASE -- don't buy my electric car. We lose a ton of money on every one of them".. He beat Toyota to it..

But don't despair. The BETTER EV is in the wings. EVERY Korean car company, Kia, Hundai, etc -- skipped out of the plug-in car concept to make the leap to hydrogen fuel cells. And that addresses the major problems of range, fueling time, grid expansion expenses and a lot of others. Expect them to start growing sales next year..

Infrastructure upgrades must be considered a provision of the general welfare and have greater priority than public policies which deny and disparage Individual Liberty.

What the funk does "general welfare" and "individual liberty" have to do with a CHOICE of driving a type of electric vehicle. You think we all vote on what's for dinner every night? Did I get to vote or weigh in on the $$$$BILLS wasted on so-called "alternate energy" ????

 

[danielpalos]

I hope this is the exception not the norm! The world needs the electric car revolution!

Who Killed The Electric Car? Toyota Now Tries For That Role - Forbes

CEO of Chrysler-Fiat came out last year and said on the Financial channels -- "PLEASE -- don't buy my electric car. We lose a ton of money on every one of them".. He beat Toyota to it..

But don't despair. The BETTER EV is in the wings. EVERY Korean car company, Kia, Hundai, etc -- skipped out of the plug-in car concept to make the leap to hydrogen fuel cells. And that addresses the major problems of range, fueling time, grid expansion expenses and a lot of others. Expect them to start growing sales next year..

Infrastructure upgrades must be considered a provision of the general welfare and have greater priority than public policies which deny and disparage Individual Liberty.

What the funk does "general welfare" and "individual liberty" have to do with a CHOICE of driving a type of electric vehicle. You think we all vote on what's for dinner every night? Did I get to vote or weigh in on the $$$$BILLS wasted on so-called "alternate energy" ????

i am referring to infrastructure upgrades that can accommodate new technologies on a plug and play basis for the private sector.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Toyota's abandoning electric vehicles makes some business sense. Go big or go home. But at the same time, Toyota is starting up with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which makes no business sense.

Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

Efficiency wise, hydrogen powered vehicles are about one-third as efficient as electric vehicles. That's taking into account start-to-finish production and use of the hydrogen or electricity.

And there's no infrastructure for distributing hydrogen. If you want to refuel an electric car, you plug it in anywhere. It might not be a fast charge, but it will be a charge. Think of it like the internet. That started on phone lines, and gradually upgraded. The electric grid and electric cars will go the same way.

Hydrogen? A fairly painless gradual improvement isn't possible, because there's nothing to start with. If you want to refuel a hydrogen vehicle, you have to take it to a specialized refueling center, which won't exist in most areas.

I had to check your claim on hydrogen cars...yea you are right.



Elon Musk Is Right: Hydrogen Is ‘An Incredibly Dumb’ Car Fuel

 

[danielpalos]

what about smart roads that can work like slot cars for vehicles?

i believe maglev technologies could be applied to personal and commercial conveyances.

 

[flacaltenn]

I hope this is the exception not the norm! The world needs the electric car revolution!

Who Killed The Electric Car? Toyota Now Tries For That Role - Forbes

CEO of Chrysler-Fiat came out last year and said on the Financial channels -- "PLEASE -- don't buy my electric car. We lose a ton of money on every one of them".. He beat Toyota to it..

But don't despair. The BETTER EV is in the wings. EVERY Korean car company, Kia, Hundai, etc -- skipped out of the plug-in car concept to make the leap to hydrogen fuel cells. And that addresses the major problems of range, fueling time, grid expansion expenses and a lot of others. Expect them to start growing sales next year..

Infrastructure upgrades must be considered a provision of the general welfare and have greater priority than public policies which deny and disparage Individual Liberty.

What the funk does "general welfare" and "individual liberty" have to do with a CHOICE of driving a type of electric vehicle. You think we all vote on what's for dinner every night? Did I get to vote or weigh in on the $$$$BILLS wasted on so-called "alternate energy" ????

i am referring to infrastructure upgrades that can accommodate new technologies on a plug and play basis for the private sector.

Maybe I misread your comment. Actually a LOT of infrastructure is VOLUNTARILY provided. Which would be my preferred way of letting individuals risk capital to make something like this happen. THAT approach is self-monitoring and self-regulating..

 

[flacaltenn]

Toyota's abandoning electric vehicles makes some business sense. Go big or go home. But at the same time, Toyota is starting up with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which makes no business sense.

Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

Efficiency wise, hydrogen powered vehicles are about one-third as efficient as electric vehicles. That's taking into account start-to-finish production and use of the hydrogen or electricity.

And there's no infrastructure for distributing hydrogen. If you want to refuel an electric car, you plug it in anywhere. It might not be a fast charge, but it will be a charge. Think of it like the internet. That started on phone lines, and gradually upgraded. The electric grid and electric cars will go the same way.

Hydrogen? A fairly painless gradual improvement isn't possible, because there's nothing to start with. If you want to refuel a hydrogen vehicle, you have to take it to a specialized refueling center, which won't exist in most areas.

I had to check your claim on hydrogen cars...yea you are right.



Elon Musk Is Right: Hydrogen Is ‘An Incredibly Dumb’ Car Fuel

The comparison there is extremely rigged. Because the BatteryEV they are comparing to in efficiency --- is the electric efficiency at the wall socket. NOT the efficencies of the generator, the grid, or the MINING or REFINING of the fuel that drives the generator. You have to be "incredibly stupid" to believe electricity just comes over some wires.

Granted -- if you made a Hydrogen process relying on the SAME "from the wall-plug power" --- It would be stupid.

But it's NOT stupid if you use OFF-GRID wind and solar power. Don't care if it only works during the day (for solar) or wind is variable or sketchy. You store what you get. Here's the dept of energy stating so.. OR use ANOTHER of several methods to produce it.

There are a number of ways to produce hydrogen:

• Natural Gas Reforming/Gasification: Synthesis gas, a mixture of hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and a small amount of carbon dioxide, is created by reacting natural gas with high-temperature steam. The carbon monoxide is reacted with water to produce additional hydrogen. This method is the cheapest, most efficient, and most common for producing hydrogen. Natural gas reforming using steam accounts for the majority of hydrogen produced in the United States annually.
  
  A synthesis gas can also be created by reacting coal or biomass with high-temperature steam and oxygen in a pressurized gasifier and converted into gaseous components—a process called gasification. The resulting synthesis gas contains hydrogen and carbon monoxide, which is reacted with steam to produce more hydrogen.
  
• Electrolysis: An electric current splits water into hydrogen and oxygen. If the electricity is from renewable sources, such as solar or wind, the resulting hydrogen will be considered renewable as well, and have numerous emissions benefits. Because renewable electricity may be available when it is not needed on the grid, power-to-gas projects are taking off. These projects use excess renewable electricity and make hydrogen through electrolysis. These renewable projects would have the potential to become even more economical if the hydrogen was sold to the fuel cell vehicle market.
  
• Renewable Liquid Reforming: Renewable liquid fuels, such as ethanol, are reacted with high-temperature steam to produce hydrogen near the point of end use.
  
• Fermentation: Biomass is converted into sugar-rich feedstocks that can be fermented to produce hydrogen.
  

A number of hydrogen production methods are in development:

• High-Temperature Water Splitting: High temperatures generated by solar concentrators or nuclear reactors drive chemical reactions that split water to produce hydrogen.
  
• Photobiological Water Splitting: Microbes, such as green algae, consume water in the presence of sunlight, producing hydrogen as a byproduct.
  
• Photoelectrochemical Water Splitting: Photoelectrochemical systems produce hydrogen from water using special semiconductors and energy from sunlight.
  

The major hydrogen-producing states are California, Louisiana, and Texas. Almost all of the hydrogen produced in the United States is used for refining petroleum, treating metals, producing fertilizer, and processing foods.

I find it very Musk-like that he would ignore all of the OTHER WAYS to make hydrogen in order to sell HIS vision of an EV. Getting hydrogen from fossil fuels with steam extraction is likely a much cleaner process than combusting them.

 

[OnePercenter]

Toyota got their ass kicked by Tesla in the all-electric market, and Volvo in the hybrid market.

 

[danielpalos]

I hope this is the exception not the norm! The world needs the electric car revolution!

Who Killed The Electric Car? Toyota Now Tries For That Role - Forbes

CEO of Chrysler-Fiat came out last year and said on the Financial channels -- "PLEASE -- don't buy my electric car. We lose a ton of money on every one of them".. He beat Toyota to it..

But don't despair. The BETTER EV is in the wings. EVERY Korean car company, Kia, Hundai, etc -- skipped out of the plug-in car concept to make the leap to hydrogen fuel cells. And that addresses the major problems of range, fueling time, grid expansion expenses and a lot of others. Expect them to start growing sales next year..

Infrastructure upgrades must be considered a provision of the general welfare and have greater priority than public policies which deny and disparage Individual Liberty.

What the funk does "general welfare" and "individual liberty" have to do with a CHOICE of driving a type of electric vehicle. You think we all vote on what's for dinner every night? Did I get to vote or weigh in on the $$$$BILLS wasted on so-called "alternate energy" ????

i am referring to infrastructure upgrades that can accommodate new technologies on a plug and play basis for the private sector.

Maybe I misread your comment. Actually a LOT of infrastructure is VOLUNTARILY provided. Which would be my preferred way of letting individuals risk capital to make something like this happen. THAT approach is self-monitoring and self-regulating..

why would that be better than fixed Standards for a State or the Union?

 

[danielpalos]

Toyota's abandoning electric vehicles makes some business sense. Go big or go home. But at the same time, Toyota is starting up with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which makes no business sense.

Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

Efficiency wise, hydrogen powered vehicles are about one-third as efficient as electric vehicles. That's taking into account start-to-finish production and use of the hydrogen or electricity.

And there's no infrastructure for distributing hydrogen. If you want to refuel an electric car, you plug it in anywhere. It might not be a fast charge, but it will be a charge. Think of it like the internet. That started on phone lines, and gradually upgraded. The electric grid and electric cars will go the same way.

Hydrogen? A fairly painless gradual improvement isn't possible, because there's nothing to start with. If you want to refuel a hydrogen vehicle, you have to take it to a specialized refueling center, which won't exist in most areas.

I had to check your claim on hydrogen cars...yea you are right.



Elon Musk Is Right: Hydrogen Is ‘An Incredibly Dumb’ Car Fuel

advances in fuel cell technologies could make this a moot point.

 

[30 year chrysler mechanic]

Toyota got their ass kicked by Tesla in the all-electric market, and Volvo in the hybrid market.

fuel cell vehicle = cars for rich only. used before to kill electric vehicles. remember ev1 or chrysler electric caravan or ford's electric van. they were all lease vehicles and all were crushed at same time. at that time gm said they could have put a fuel cell vehicle on road at price of 1 million a copy. on vehicle reformers did not work.they trashed the fuel cells in very short time. chrysler wasted millions testing reformers after electric utilities had already concluded reformers were worthless. toyota's batterry maker was purchaced by cheveron and the ev1 battery was purchased by texico to kill electric vehicles and it worked.
ev1 battery ovionic then battery maker was sued for speaking out.

 

[danielpalos]

Toyota got their ass kicked by Tesla in the all-electric market, and Volvo in the hybrid market.

fuel cell vehicle = cars for rich only. used before to kill electric vehicles. remember ev1 or chrysler electric caravan or ford's electric van. they were all lease vehicles and all were crushed at same time. at that time gm said they could have put a fuel cell vehicle on road at price of 1 million a copy. on vehicle reformers did not work.they trashed the fuel cells in very short time. chrysler wasted millions testing reformers after electric utilities had already concluded reformers were worthless. toyota's batterry maker was purchaced by cheveron and the ev1 battery was purchased by texico to kill electric vehicles and it worked.
ev1 battery ovionic then battery maker was sued for speaking out.

cost will go down eventually as advances in technologies enable better products at lower cost.

 

[Old Rocks]

I have heard about the wonders of fuel cell vehicles just about as long as that of hydrogen fusion. Neither have lived up to the hype. However, we have a good many EV's now, and more on the way. And some of the are admirable vehicles, combining the best of an advanced luxury car with the power and speed of a high end sports vehicle.

What I find passingly strange is that the oh-so patriotic 'Conservatives' just cannot say enough bad about a vehicle created and built right here on in the US of A. A vehicle that flat out beats luxury sedans costing 5 times as much in style and performance. And they are constantly cheering for the Tesla to fail. What a bunch of sour grape bastards.

 

[danielpalos]

I have heard about the wonders of fuel cell vehicles just about as long as that of hydrogen fusion. Neither have lived up to the hype. However, we have a good many EV's now, and more on the way. And some of the are admirable vehicles, combining the best of an advanced luxury car with the power and speed of a high end sports vehicle.

What I find passingly strange is that the oh-so patriotic 'Conservatives' just cannot say enough bad about a vehicle created and built right here on in the US of A. A vehicle that flat out beats luxury sedans costing 5 times as much in style and performance. And they are constantly cheering for the Tesla to fail. What a bunch of sour grape bastards.

not sure why; you can get 8gb of ram for less than twenty dollars on eBay.

 

[flacaltenn]

I have heard about the wonders of fuel cell vehicles just about as long as that of hydrogen fusion. Neither have lived up to the hype. However, we have a good many EV's now, and more on the way. And some of the are admirable vehicles, combining the best of an advanced luxury car with the power and speed of a high end sports vehicle.

What I find passingly strange is that the oh-so patriotic 'Conservatives' just cannot say enough bad about a vehicle created and built right here on in the US of A. A vehicle that flat out beats luxury sedans costing 5 times as much in style and performance. And they are constantly cheering for the Tesla to fail. What a bunch of sour grape bastards.

Fuel cells are what took the Apollo mission to the moon and back and that was in the 60s. Already present in buses, trucks using nat gas instead of hydrogen. And there are already 3 or 4 PRODUCTION model cars with FCs as their source of power.
Main Post Office in Anchorage runs off FCs powered by nat gas.



You just haven't been paying attention.

 

[Old Rocks]

3 or 4 production cars as opposed to how many hybrids and EV's?

 

[30 year chrysler mechanic]

Toyota got their ass kicked by Tesla in the all-electric market, and Volvo in the hybrid market.

fuel cell vehicle = cars for rich only. used before to kill electric vehicles. remember ev1 or chrysler electric caravan or ford's electric van. they were all lease vehicles and all were crushed at same time. at that time gm said they could have put a fuel cell vehicle on road at price of 1 million a copy. on vehicle reformers did not work.they trashed the fuel cells in very short time. chrysler wasted millions testing reformers after electric utilities had already concluded reformers were worthless. toyota's batterry maker was purchaced by cheveron and the ev1 battery was purchased by texico to kill electric vehicles and it worked.
ev1 battery ovionic then battery maker was sued for speaking out.

cost will go down eventually as advances in technologies enable better products at lower cost.

agreed. thin film proton exchange membranes have bought cost of fuel cells down since ev1 was killed. what has not changed is that fuel cell and battery electrics are cars for rich. the economics is same today as was 100 years ago by 1 baker electric or 3 model t fords. that is what killed electric car. THERE IS A NICH MARKET and electrics and fc vehicles should be built to supply that demand.

 

[danielpalos]

Toyota got their ass kicked by Tesla in the all-electric market, and Volvo in the hybrid market.

fuel cell vehicle = cars for rich only. used before to kill electric vehicles. remember ev1 or chrysler electric caravan or ford's electric van. they were all lease vehicles and all were crushed at same time. at that time gm said they could have put a fuel cell vehicle on road at price of 1 million a copy. on vehicle reformers did not work.they trashed the fuel cells in very short time. chrysler wasted millions testing reformers after electric utilities had already concluded reformers were worthless. toyota's batterry maker was purchaced by cheveron and the ev1 battery was purchased by texico to kill electric vehicles and it worked.
ev1 battery ovionic then battery maker was sued for speaking out.

cost will go down eventually as advances in technologies enable better products at lower cost.

agreed. thin film proton exchange membranes have bought cost of fuel cells down since ev1 was killed. what has not changed is that fuel cell and battery electrics are cars for rich. the economics is same today as was 100 years ago by 1 baker electric or 3 model t fords. that is what killed electric car. THERE IS A NICH MARKET and electrics and fc vehicles should be built to supply that demand.

I believe one niche market is the postal service, urban box fleets.