Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year

[TheGreatGatsby]

NHS doctors are prematurely ending the lives of thousands of elderly hospital patients because they are difficult to manage or to free up beds, a senior consultant claimed yesterday.
Professor Patrick Pullicino said doctors had turned the use of a controversial ‘death pathway’ into the equivalent of euthanasia of the elderly.
He claimed there was often a lack of clear evidence for initiating the Liverpool Care Pathway, a method of looking after terminally ill patients that is used in hospitals across the country.

Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year | Mail Online

Since were going into the Universal Health care I just wanted all of the people who support it think about this

Yeah I saw that, bye bye old people. Your healthcare just got simpler, take that pain pill.

It reminds me of the Dinosaurs TV Show in which the dinosaurs are happy to throw their parents off the cliff when they get old.

Here's the episode

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=easYTQgzPSM]Dinosaurs Ep3 1/3 - Hurling Day - YouTube[/ame]

 

[clevergirl]

I noticed SeaBxxxxx gave up the attack on our mortality rate when it was rammed back up her ass.

Our mortality rate and theirs is now irrelevant since the OP is a lie. The UK still gets better results than our Health Care.

No it doesn't.

 

[Seawytch]

I noticed SeaBxxxxx gave up the attack on our mortality rate when it was rammed back up her ass.

Our mortality rate and theirs is now irrelevant since the OP is a lie. The UK still gets better results than our Health Care.

What makes the OP a lie? The Professor has a genuine concern along with many others that this program is being abused.

So what makes it a lie Seawytch? Because you don't like the distinguished Professors opinion?

No, because a group with 4,000 physicians says it's bullshit. 4,000 versus 1 guy with an opinion about the LCP.

If you want to start a thread on the wonders of the NHS I'd be more than happy to begin a thread with the absolute horror stories I have accumulated about the NHS.

Did you miss the one I put up earlier where the staff at a hospital forgot to give a young man his medication and then refused to give him anything to drink and he died of dehydration?

The poor young patient even called the police to tell them he was dying and the wonderous staff in their wisdom turned the police away, and still refused to tend to the patient and he died.

He was in such a horrid state the coroner called for an inquest. Essentially the staff killed the young man.

I have so many others. I'd be more than happy to share them with you.

Go right ahead. I can tell you just as many about the horrors of American hospitals and thousands dying WITHOUT insurance. Not dying people at the end of their life, but healthy young people dying because they have no insurance.

You can talk all you want to about it, but I'll counter with studies that show that the UK gets better results than we do.

The Commonwealth Fund surveyed more family doctors in 11 countries – including Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden and America.

Britain was the only country where the majority of doctors felt the quality of health care is improving and, in contrast to the United States, the NHS rated highly for fast, inexpensive and readily-available care for all.

The UK also scored highly on access to specialist care, out-of-hours provision and use of electronic records.

The study said: "Policies to invest and improve access, quality, and health outcomes have been put in place. Recent studies indicate that the reforms have improved outcomes."

It found 48 per cent of doctors in the United States reported problems in getting treatment for their patients compared to only six per cent in Britain, while only 29 per cent of doctors in the US offered an out of hours service compared to 89 per cent in Britain.​

NHS 'better than American health care'

 

[Bfgrn]

NHS doctors are prematurely ending the lives of thousands of elderly hospital patients because they are difficult to manage or to free up beds, a senior consultant claimed yesterday.
Professor Patrick Pullicino said doctors had turned the use of a controversial ‘death pathway’ into the equivalent of euthanasia of the elderly.
He claimed there was often a lack of clear evidence for initiating the Liverpool Care Pathway, a method of looking after terminally ill patients that is used in hospitals across the country.

Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year | Mail Online

Since were going into the Universal Health care I just wanted all of the people who support it think about this

Totally different story in America...

American life expectancy at birth ranks 30th in the world. We remain 30th for the rest of our lives -- until we reach 65. Then, our rank rises until we reach 14th at 80. We can thank the remarkable access to health care provided by Medicare.

 

[konradv]

Oh we Conservatives had a freaking blast mocking Premier Danny Williams for going stateside for surgery.

So what? People often go out of their area to find a specialist. The important question is, who paid for it?

Oh he was a moving target for us. Premier Danny Williams was a huge loudmouth liberal prick.

There was a huge uproar over this why? Because he could have had the operation up here in Canada. Williams was an asshole who deserved all the flack he got over this.

As I suspected, your comment is based on hate rather than facts.

 

[tinydancer]

So what? People often go out of their area to find a specialist. The important question is, who paid for it?

Oh he was a moving target for us. Premier Danny Williams was a huge loudmouth liberal prick.

There was a huge uproar over this why? Because he could have had the operation up here in Canada. Williams was an asshole who deserved all the flack he got over this.

As I suspected, your comment is based on hate rather than facts.

Danny had been mouthing off for eons that Harper was going to destroy our health system and that it was a matter of principal that we didn't go two tier.

Williams consistently hammered away at any individual who even breathed two tier ( and he was quite a nasty man about it).

So for Williams to use a privatized system you see was the height of hypocrisy and he got a right old shit kicking from Conservatives, NDP and even his own party. (he'd even in the past crawled down other politicians throats for using any privatized clinics).

It's not hate. I've been a political animal in Canadian politics since I was a liberal and a teenager and campaigned for Trudeau ok? I truly know the Liberal party inside and out considering I'd been one for so long.

Then one day I came to my senses.

 

[NYcarbineer]

An unsubstantiated claim by one guy, that is denied by the NHS, and all the usual suspects around here automatically assume that it's gospel.

Of course, if you can believe the Earth is 6000 years old, you can pretty much believe anything that makes you feel better.

 

[tinydancer]

Almost one third of all the patients who die with NHS are on this "pathway program".

29%.

The doctors "help them along the way to their deaths".

It sounds so lovely doesn't it?

 

[tinydancer]

An unsubstantiated claim by one guy, that is denied by the NHS, and all the usual suspects around here automatically assume that it's gospel.

Of course, if you can believe the Earth is 6000 years old, you can pretty much believe anything that makes you feel better.

The Professor is "not just a guy". And this has been an ongoing issue not just"unsubstantiated claims" by some whacko.

In 2009 a huge investigation was launched into the LCP. This isn't a one hit wonder here.

From 2009:


Sentenced to death on the NHS


Patients with terminal illnesses are being made to die prematurely under an NHS scheme to help end their lives, leading doctors have warned.


In a letter to The Daily Telegraph, a group of experts who care for the terminally ill claim that some patients are being wrongly judged as close to death.

Under NHS guidance introduced across England to help doctors and medical staff deal with dying patients, they can then have fluid and drugs withdrawn and many are put on continuous sedation until they pass away.

But this approach can also mask the signs that their condition is improving, the experts warn.

As a result the scheme is causing a “national crisis” in patient care, the letter states. It has been signed palliative care experts including Professor Peter Millard, Emeritus Professor of Geriatrics, University of London, Dr Peter Hargreaves, a consultant in Palliative Medicine at St Luke’s cancer centre in Guildford, and four others.

“Forecasting death is an inexact science,”they say. Patients are being diagnosed as being close to death “without regard to the fact that the diagnosis could be wrong.

They aren't disgruntled whack jobs. They are professionals with a genuine concern.

Sentenced to death on the NHS - Telegraph

 

[Toro]

NHS doctors are prematurely ending the lives of thousands of elderly hospital patients because they are difficult to manage or to free up beds, a senior consultant claimed yesterday.
Professor Patrick Pullicino said doctors had turned the use of a controversial ‘death pathway’ into the equivalent of euthanasia of the elderly.
He claimed there was often a lack of clear evidence for initiating the Liverpool Care Pathway, a method of looking after terminally ill patients that is used in hospitals across the country.

Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year | Mail Online

Since were going into the Universal Health care I just wanted all of the people who support it think about this

But you know it's Republicans that want the Old to just go away and Die.

Fact is Socialized medicine makes you have to prioritize and the old are always the first to see cuts.

In Canada, old people are not the first to see cuts.

I'm not sure what you base your opinion on.

 

[clevergirl]

Our mortality rate and theirs is now irrelevant since the OP is a lie. The UK still gets better results than our Health Care.

What makes the OP a lie? The Professor has a genuine concern along with many others that this program is being abused.

So what makes it a lie Seawytch? Because you don't like the distinguished Professors opinion?

No, because a group with 4,000 physicians says it's bullshit. 4,000 versus 1 guy with an opinion about the LCP.

If you want to start a thread on the wonders of the NHS I'd be more than happy to begin a thread with the absolute horror stories I have accumulated about the NHS.

Did you miss the one I put up earlier where the staff at a hospital forgot to give a young man his medication and then refused to give him anything to drink and he died of dehydration?

The poor young patient even called the police to tell them he was dying and the wonderous staff in their wisdom turned the police away, and still refused to tend to the patient and he died.

He was in such a horrid state the coroner called for an inquest. Essentially the staff killed the young man.

I have so many others. I'd be more than happy to share them with you.

Go right ahead. I can tell you just as many about the horrors of American hospitals and thousands dying WITHOUT insurance. Not dying people at the end of their life, but healthy young people dying because they have no insurance.

You can talk all you want to about it, but I'll counter with studies that show that the UK gets better results than we do.

The Commonwealth Fund surveyed more family doctors in 11 countries – including Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden and America.

Britain was the only country where the majority of doctors felt the quality of health care is improving and, in contrast to the United States, the NHS rated highly for fast, inexpensive and readily-available care for all.

The UK also scored highly on access to specialist care, out-of-hours provision and use of electronic records.

The study said: "Policies to invest and improve access, quality, and health outcomes have been put in place. Recent studies indicate that the reforms have improved outcomes."

It found 48 per cent of doctors in the United States reported problems in getting treatment for their patients compared to only six per cent in Britain, while only 29 per cent of doctors in the US offered an out of hours service compared to 89 per cent in Britain.​

NHS 'better than American health care'

I read the entire piece. It is a fluff piece- It proves nothing and offers nothing with regards to any kind of real study. The headline itself is telling - Which "American Think tank"?

People come from all over the world to be treated in the US. We have some of the finest doctors and specialized medicine treatment bar none.

 

[tinydancer]

Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year | Mail Online

Since were going into the Universal Health care I just wanted all of the people who support it think about this

But you know it's Republicans that want the Old to just go away and Die.

Fact is Socialized medicine makes you have to prioritize and the old are always the first to see cuts.

In Canada, old people are not the first to see cuts.

I'm not sure what you base your opinion on.

I'm really thankful that most of our politicians and the electorate up here are at least able to have a rational conversation these days, duly criticize what is wrong (like our wait times) and work to rectify the problems.

I think we're making great headway.

 

[Bfgrn]

What makes the OP a lie? The Professor has a genuine concern along with many others that this program is being abused.

So what makes it a lie Seawytch? Because you don't like the distinguished Professors opinion?

No, because a group with 4,000 physicians says it's bullshit. 4,000 versus 1 guy with an opinion about the LCP.

If you want to start a thread on the wonders of the NHS I'd be more than happy to begin a thread with the absolute horror stories I have accumulated about the NHS.

Did you miss the one I put up earlier where the staff at a hospital forgot to give a young man his medication and then refused to give him anything to drink and he died of dehydration?

The poor young patient even called the police to tell them he was dying and the wonderous staff in their wisdom turned the police away, and still refused to tend to the patient and he died.

He was in such a horrid state the coroner called for an inquest. Essentially the staff killed the young man.

I have so many others. I'd be more than happy to share them with you.

Go right ahead. I can tell you just as many about the horrors of American hospitals and thousands dying WITHOUT insurance. Not dying people at the end of their life, but healthy young people dying because they have no insurance.

You can talk all you want to about it, but I'll counter with studies that show that the UK gets better results than we do.

The Commonwealth Fund surveyed more family doctors in 11 countries – including Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden and America.

Britain was the only country where the majority of doctors felt the quality of health care is improving and, in contrast to the United States, the NHS rated highly for fast, inexpensive and readily-available care for all.

The UK also scored highly on access to specialist care, out-of-hours provision and use of electronic records.

The study said: "Policies to invest and improve access, quality, and health outcomes have been put in place. Recent studies indicate that the reforms have improved outcomes."

It found 48 per cent of doctors in the United States reported problems in getting treatment for their patients compared to only six per cent in Britain, while only 29 per cent of doctors in the US offered an out of hours service compared to 89 per cent in Britain.​

NHS 'better than American health care'

I read the entire piece. It is a fluff piece- It proves nothing and offers nothing with regards to any kind of real study. The headline itself is telling - Which "American Think tank"?

People come from all over the world to be treated in the US. We have some of the finest doctors and specialized medicine treatment bar none.

FLUFF personified...

 

[NYcarbineer]

An unsubstantiated claim by one guy, that is denied by the NHS, and all the usual suspects around here automatically assume that it's gospel.

Of course, if you can believe the Earth is 6000 years old, you can pretty much believe anything that makes you feel better.

The Professor is "not just a guy". And this has been an ongoing issue not just"unsubstantiated claims" by some whacko.

In 2009 a huge investigation was launched into the LCP. This isn't a one hit wonder here.

From 2009:


Sentenced to death on the NHS


Patients with terminal illnesses are being made to die prematurely under an NHS scheme to help end their lives, leading doctors have warned.


In a letter to The Daily Telegraph, a group of experts who care for the terminally ill claim that some patients are being wrongly judged as close to death.

Under NHS guidance introduced across England to help doctors and medical staff deal with dying patients, they can then have fluid and drugs withdrawn and many are put on continuous sedation until they pass away.

But this approach can also mask the signs that their condition is improving, the experts warn.

As a result the scheme is causing a “national crisis” in patient care, the letter states. It has been signed palliative care experts including Professor Peter Millard, Emeritus Professor of Geriatrics, University of London, Dr Peter Hargreaves, a consultant in Palliative Medicine at St Luke’s cancer centre in Guildford, and four others.

“Forecasting death is an inexact science,”they say. Patients are being diagnosed as being close to death “without regard to the fact that the diagnosis could be wrong.

They aren't disgruntled whack jobs. They are professionals with a genuine concern.

Sentenced to death on the NHS - Telegraph

So even is this were true, why are you trying to blame socialized medicine for it? It sounds like the real reasons, if they were true, are from personnel NOT COMPLYING WITH THE NHS RULES.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Almost one third of all the patients who die with NHS are on this "pathway program".

29%.

The doctors "help them along the way to their deaths".

It sounds so lovely doesn't it?

Would you prefer that billions of tax dollars be invested in assuring that every old person's life is prolonged by any manner possible no matter what the circumstances?

 

[clevergirl]

No, because a group with 4,000 physicians says it's bullshit. 4,000 versus 1 guy with an opinion about the LCP.



Go right ahead. I can tell you just as many about the horrors of American hospitals and thousands dying WITHOUT insurance. Not dying people at the end of their life, but healthy young people dying because they have no insurance.

You can talk all you want to about it, but I'll counter with studies that show that the UK gets better results than we do.

The Commonwealth Fund surveyed more family doctors in 11 countries – including Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden and America.

Britain was the only country where the majority of doctors felt the quality of health care is improving and, in contrast to the United States, the NHS rated highly for fast, inexpensive and readily-available care for all.

The UK also scored highly on access to specialist care, out-of-hours provision and use of electronic records.

The study said: "Policies to invest and improve access, quality, and health outcomes have been put in place. Recent studies indicate that the reforms have improved outcomes."

It found 48 per cent of doctors in the United States reported problems in getting treatment for their patients compared to only six per cent in Britain, while only 29 per cent of doctors in the US offered an out of hours service compared to 89 per cent in Britain.​

NHS 'better than American health care'

I read the entire piece. It is a fluff piece- It proves nothing and offers nothing with regards to any kind of real study. The headline itself is telling - Which "American Think tank"?

People come from all over the world to be treated in the US. We have some of the finest doctors and specialized medicine treatment bar none.

FLUFF personified...

Once again a liberal can't read well and so posts something they want to make it about.

I never said "large numbers of Canadians" come to the US for medical care. I stated that: People come from all over the world to be treated in the US. We have some of the finest doctors and specialized medicine treatment bar none"

The fact that Canadians don't mind long wait times is not a new piece of information- but for the wealthier Canadians who want specialty care...guess where they come. Mediocre medicine for the poor and middle class has become normalized. HMO's have contributed to that same kind of sub standard care as being acceptable and normal here. Obamacare merely put the government in charge of saying live with it and oh yeah subsidize.

I believe that creating a free market solution is possible. The number of solutions offered by conservatives, such as portability; co-ops; and cafeteria plans, in combination with the following article's idea, would go a long way in making good health care more affordable and accessible.

John C. Goodman: Why Mandated Health Insurance Is Unfair - WSJ.com

 

[Bfgrn]

I read the entire piece. It is a fluff piece- It proves nothing and offers nothing with regards to any kind of real study. The headline itself is telling - Which "American Think tank"?

People come from all over the world to be treated in the US. We have some of the finest doctors and specialized medicine treatment bar none.

FLUFF personified...

Once again a liberal can't read well and so posts something they want to make it about.

I never said "large numbers of Canadians" come to the US for medical care. I stated that: People come from all over the world come here to be treated in the US. We have some of the finest doctors and specialized medicine treatment bar none"

The fact that Canadians don't mind long wait times is not a new piece of information- but for the wealthier Canadians who want specialty care...guess where they come. Mediocre medicine for the poor and middle class has become normalized. HMO's have contributed to that same kind of sub standard care as being acceptable and normal here. Obamacare merely put the government in charge of saying live with it and oh yeah subsidize.

I believe that creating a free market solution is possible. The number of solutions offered by conservatives, such as portability; co-ops; and cafeteria plans, in combination with the following article's idea, would go a long way in making good health care more affordable and accessible.

John C. Goodman: Why Mandated Health Insurance Is Unfair - WSJ.com

Yes, 'some' people come to America for health care. 'Some' people travel to Russia for caviar, BUT, wouldn't it make sense that the highest number would come from a country that is on our entire northern border? It ain't happening because, just like every single argument that comes from right wing parrots, it's BULLSHIT.

MORE Americans go to other countries for health care.

A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care; the same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006) wiki

Nearly 1 million Californians seek medical care in Mexico annually.

Traveling for Care -- Outside the U.S.

America's health care is at the bottom of all industrialized countries.

A recent study reported in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine compared the amounts of money spent by nineteen Western countries on health care relative to their respective gross domestic product (GDP). The authors, Professor Colin Pritchard of the Bournemouth University School of Health and Social Care, and Dr. Mark Wallace of the Latymer School of London, ranked countries by the average percentage of GDP spent on health care between 1979 and 2005. They then looked at mortality rates for “all adults” (15-74 years old) and for just the “older” population (55-74) to determine a cost-effective ratio, i.e., how much “bang for the buck” each country has been getting for the money spent. The conclusions are striking.

Increasing Health Care Costs

It will come as no surprise that health care costs have gone up everywhere. In 1980, Sweden spent nine percent of its GDP on health care. The USA came in second at 8.8%. Most countries averaged about 7.1% of GDP. In 2005, the picture had changed. The United States was far in front of all other countries, spending an average of 12.2% of its GDP for all public and private health care costs. Germany was a somewhat distant second at 9.7%, with the average for all countries standing at 7.4%. In other words, while average health care expenditures increased from 7% to 7.4%, America’s costs jumped from 8.8% to 12.2% of GDP over the same span of time.

Mortality Rates

The study then looked at trends in mortality rates for both the entire adult population (15-74) and for older people (55-74). Deaths per million population were looked at, and the authors found that mortality rates had declined in segments of this population in every country, an indication that medical science has indeed improved over the past few decades.

Utilizing standard statistical tools and analysis, the authors then ranked the same 19 countries according to their effectiveness in reducing the mortality rate for the elderly populace ages 55 to 74. Comparing the amount of money spent by each country on health care and the reduced mortality rates, the countries fell into the following ranking:

1 Ireland
2 United Kingdom
3 New Zealand
4 Austria
5 Australia
6 Italy
7 Finland
8 Japan
9 Spain
10 Sweden
11 Canada
12 Netherlands
13 France
14 Norway
15 Greece
16 Germany
17 USA
18 Portugal
19 Switzerland

Conclusions

Take a look. America outspends everyone else by far on health care, and has shown the least amount of improvement on mortality rates, with the exception of Portugal and Switzerland. Why does the United States do such a poor job?

The authors give several potential reasons, including regional disparities in health care availability in a country as large as the US, the much higher rate of firearms-related homicides here, and the higher number of un-insureds we have. The study is, however, consistent with other reports that show the USA is doing a poor job of health care for its citizens. A recent UNICEF report looked at “well-being” of children among major industrialized countries (e.g. material wealth, family relationships, health care), and found the United States ranking 23rd of 24 countries reviewed.

Universal vs. Private Health Insurance

There is one factor common to the top 15 countries on the above list. They all have strong state funding of single-payer universal health care, instead of insurance based health care tied to employment. The bottom four countries – Germany, USA, Portugal and Switzerland – all depend more heavily on profit-based, private health insurance provided primarily through the employer/employee relationship.

I never gave anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell.
Harry S. Truman

 

[Toro]

But you know it's Republicans that want the Old to just go away and Die.

Fact is Socialized medicine makes you have to prioritize and the old are always the first to see cuts.

In Canada, old people are not the first to see cuts.

I'm not sure what you base your opinion on.

I'm really thankful that most of our politicians and the electorate up here are at least able to have a rational conversation these days, duly criticize what is wrong (like our wait times) and work to rectify the problems.

I think we're making great headway.

Not being poor, I'd rather be in the American system than the Canadian. However, there is too much partisan ignorance about Canadian Medicare.

 

[Toro]

I read the entire piece. It is a fluff piece- It proves nothing and offers nothing with regards to any kind of real study. The headline itself is telling - Which "American Think tank"?

People come from all over the world to be treated in the US. We have some of the finest doctors and specialized medicine treatment bar none.

FLUFF personified...

Once again a liberal can't read well and so posts something they want to make it about.

I never said "large numbers of Canadians" come to the US for medical care. I stated that: People come from all over the world to be treated in the US. We have some of the finest doctors and specialized medicine treatment bar none"

The fact that Canadians don't mind long wait times is not a new piece of information- but for the wealthier Canadians who want specialty care...guess where they come. Mediocre medicine for the poor and middle class has become normalized. HMO's have contributed to that same kind of sub standard care as being acceptable and normal here. Obamacare merely put the government in charge of saying live with it and oh yeah subsidize.

I believe that creating a free market solution is possible. The number of solutions offered by conservatives, such as portability; co-ops; and cafeteria plans, in combination with the following article's idea, would go a long way in making good health care more affordable and accessible.

John C. Goodman: Why Mandated Health Insurance Is Unfair - WSJ.com

Lots of Americans go abroad for medical procedures also because it can be 75% cheaper, or more.

 

[Dick Tuck]

NHS doctors are prematurely ending the lives of thousands of elderly hospital patients because they are difficult to manage or to free up beds, a senior consultant claimed yesterday.
Professor Patrick Pullicino said doctors had turned the use of a controversial ‘death pathway’ into the equivalent of euthanasia of the elderly.
He claimed there was often a lack of clear evidence for initiating the Liverpool Care Pathway, a method of looking after terminally ill patients that is used in hospitals across the country.

Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year | Mail Online

Since were going into the Universal Health care I just wanted all of the people who support it think about this

How many people did the American system put to an early death? Can you say "pre-existing condition"? Can you say "can't afford healthcare"? How many Americans choose hospice?