Tolerance vs. Reason

[5stringJeff]

I'm finishing a book called "Persecution" by David Limbaugh. In it, Limbaugh exposes the many ways in which the political Left actively opposes public displays of Christian symbols, public Christian expressions of faith or prayers, etc. But the most revealing thing to me was his treatment of Tolerance.

As most everyone knows, tolerance is a great virtue in today's society - arguably the most important, according to many. And I don't mean tolerant in that we are kind and/or nice to a person with differing beliefs; I mean that tolerance which demands that we accept their beliefs as equal to our own. We are supposed to be tolerant of homosexuality, for instance, and tolerant of other religions, and tolerant of people's moral and ethical codes.

But can we truly be tolerant of something which opposes our own moral/ethical view? The most popular example of this, having been in the news for several months, is the issue of gay marriage. Bible-believing Christians oppose homosexual behavior as sinful, giving rise to their opposition to gay marriage. But the religiously secular community, along with the homosexual lobby, commands our "tolerance" for their viewpoint. If we can't be tolerant, then we are no better than Hitler, bin Laden, Stalin, etc., who were not tolerant of people who opposed them.

But should a Christian be tolerant - accepting - of homosexual behavior? My answer is no. For a Christian to accept a behavior that goes against the teachings of Christianity would be to say, "Some tenets of God's teaching are fine, but some are not, and I get to choose which is which." This obviously violates the doctrines of Christianity - and the other Western religions - which claim that God's judgments are sovreign, and that His is the final authority over right and wrong; thus, a thinking person could not at once embrace Christianity and acceptance of homosexuality as moral equals; one must be morally superior to the other.

This is not to say that we should be hateful towards those whose beliefs we cannot tolerate. I believe with all my heart that we should "love your neighbor as yourself." The 'God Hates Fags' movement is just as wrong about God's Word as the homosexual movement, for God scorns hate just as much as homosexual behavior. But that does not mean that God hates those people; rather, He loves them just as dearly as the most pious. What I am saying is that we cannot be intellectually honest with ourselves if we demand that a person hold two opposing moral views with equal acceptance.

Sorry this ran long. Thoughts?

 

[dilloduck]

Was that the god vs. mammon speech in the bible?

 

[HGROKIT]

Here is how I see it.

I do not have to hold anyone's beliefs as equal to my own in order to be tolerant. If I must hold anyones beliefs equal to my beliefs to meet their idea of tolerance, then I would have to say I am intolerant.

I for example believe homosexuality to be contrary to my value and belief system. Therefore, I do not support same sex marriage. Am I intolerant of the Gay/Lesbian community? I don't believe so, I practice no hatred or violent acts against them. Live and let live.

But I am not required to hold their values equal to mine in order to be tolerant of theirs. Tolerance does not constitute approval on my part.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Main Entry: tol·er·ance
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-r&n(t)s, 'täl-r&n(t)s
Function: noun
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION

I believe indulgence is the operative word here. Don' see anything in the definition regarding equality of beliefs.

 

[dilloduck]

Good point ! and then you can let both sides play it out. When the other side screws up or gets some bad media you can jump up and down and tell yourself " I told you so ! I'm right--I'm right"

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Good point ! and then you can let both sides play it out. When the other side screws up or gets some bad media you can jump up and down and tell yourself " I told you so ! I'm right--I'm right"

huh?

 

[UsaPride]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
Tolerance does not constitute approval on my part.

I like that! I agree with you. I don't have to like something or even give my approval to something to tolerate it.

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
huh?

Its live and let live------tolerance isnt condoning but if you allow the other to continue with what you think is the wrong way, then

1. they find out for themselves the error of their ways (works better than cramming something down thier throat)

2 if they fail it's an affirmation for your belief system.

3 if they succeed, you have an opportunity to accept it as yours also or continue on your merry way

its a win-win situation unless you feel as if you have to protect people from themselves.

 

[Socrates]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Its live and let live------tolerance isnt condoning but if you allow the other to continue with what you think is the wrong way, then

1. they find out for themselves the error of their ways (works better than cramming something down thier throat)

2 if they fail it's an affirmation for your belief system.

3 if they succeed, you have an opportunity to accept it as yours also or continue on your merry way

its a win-win situation unless you feel as if you have to protect people from themselves.

I completely agree. Tolerance isn't about adopting views contrary to your own. It's about letting others live their lives the way they think best, and they return the favor. This is clearly the best way to run a society, for the reasons listed above.

 

[KLSuddeth]

Damn fine post and subject matter, Jeff

As per my usual M.O. (lol), I will need to think and pick my thoughts apart before responding

 

[menewa]

How come Christians simply pick and choose what to follow out of the bible. Jeff, you oppose gay/lesbian marriage b/c the bible tells you so. But it also tells you not to eat pork and to stone your wife to death if she cheats on you. The Old Testament is full of crazy laws we, thankfully, no longer follow. Why do you choose to follow some of the rules in the bible, but not all of them?

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by menewa
How come Christians simply pick and choose what to follow out of the bible. Jeff, you oppose gay/lesbian marriage b/c the bible tells you so. But it also tells you not to eat pork and to stone your wife to death if she cheats on you. The Old Testament is full of crazy laws we, thankfully, no longer follow. Why do you choose to follow some of the rules in the bible, but not all of them?

Answering for jeff....so don't be mad at HIM when I say:


Why do people try to 'get' christians when they haven't read the bible, nor understand Christian doctrine?


Your question is flawed...

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by -=d=-
Answering for jeff....so don't be mad at HIM when I say:


Why do people try to 'get' christians when they haven't read the bible, nor understand Christian doctrine?


Your question is flawed...

How is my question flawed. He's playing pick and choose with biblical mandates on behavior. I was a raised a Southern Baptist. I've been indoctrinated into down home South Alabama Protestant revivalism since I was a wee babe. Don't assume I am ignorant on the Bible. Just somone please answer my question. It is an honest question.

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by menewa
How is my question flawed. He's playing pick and choose with biblical mandates on behavior. I was a raised a Southern Baptist. I've been indoctrinated into down home South Alabama Protestant revivalism since I was a wee babe. Don't assume I am ignorant on the Bible. Just somone please answer my question. It is an honest question.

You are ignorant of Christianity...You are ignorant of how Christ told us to interpret God's word. You are assuming that Christianity teaches people to obey every written command (not speaking specifically of the 10 commandments, btw) in the bible. Simply not true.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

Originally posted by -=d=-
You are ignorant of Christianity...You are ignorant of how Christ told us to interpret God's word. You are assuming that Christianity teaches people to obey every written command (not speaking specifically of the 10 commandments, btw) in the bible. Simply not true.

According to my Jehovah friend, she says that they try to follow every command. That is what they are taught.

I used to be Catholic, and I can say that we were not taught to follow every command.

I guess it all depends on what branch of Christianity you follow.

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by brneyedgrl80
According to my Jehovah friend, she says that they try to follow every command. That is what they are taught.

I used to be Catholic, and I can say that we were not taught to follow every command.

I guess it all depends on what branch of Christianity you follow.

Christianity, as defined IN the bible isn't compatable w/ Catholocism or JW... :-/

I'd argue however they aren't taught to follow every guidline...the bible mentions "Blesses is he who takes their babies and smashes them against the stone"...

The key with the bible lays in 'context'.

 

[brneyedgrl80]

I have a question that you could probably answer.

How come in some instances, Catholics are considered Christians by Christians and even by Catholics, but in other instances they are not considered Chirstians by Christians?

I'm just wondering that.

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by brneyedgrl80
I have a question that you could probably answer.

How come in some instances, Catholics are considered Christians by Christians and even by Catholics, but in other instances they are not considered Chirstians by Christians?

I'm just wondering that.

Catholics - those who practice the belief-system to it's fullest, are christians in the sense that they base their teachings on Christ - some of Christ's teachings anyway...

I feel some important factors of the cult-er...I mean Religion are simply incompatable w/ what Christ taught.

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by -=d=-
You are ignorant of Christianity...You are ignorant of how Christ told us to interpret God's word. You are assuming that Christianity teaches people to obey every written command (not speaking specifically of the 10 commandments, btw) in the bible. Simply not true.

I agree that we should not obey every written word as well. But why does one decide to cling to some anti-gay/lesbian verse and not others. This means the religion is basically chaos.
Speaking of Christianity, there is nothing in the new testament that I know of that condemns homosexuality. That's only in the crazy old-T books like Leviticus.

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by menewa
I agree that we should not obey every written word as well. But why does one decide to cling to some anti-gay/lesbian verse and not others. This means the religion is basically chaos.
Speaking of Christianity, there is nothing in the new testament that I know of that condemns homosexuality. That's only in the crazy old-T books like Leviticus.

when have you last read the new testiment?

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexuals

For homosexuality not being 'condemned' it's sure grouped with some heavy things...

9 realizing the fact that (1) law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (2) rebellious, for the (3) ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (4) profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and (5) immoral men and (6) homosexuals and (7) kidnappers and (8) liars and (9) perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (10) sound teaching,

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by menewa
I agree that we should not obey every written word as well. But why does one decide to cling to some anti-gay/lesbian verse and not others. This means the religion is basically chaos.
Speaking of Christianity, there is nothing in the new testament that I know of that condemns homosexuality. That's only in the crazy old-T books like Leviticus.

Because, while the Law of Moses has been fulfilled and its no longer necessary to follow it precept by precept any more than we are required to follow the commandment to Noah to build an ark today, the Law of Chastity is still in force. Chastity before marriage, fidelity afterwards. Thats God's program. And despite people not likely that particular commandment in or out of Christianity there are very clear reasons for it.

As for the comments on toleration. I find it completely Ironic that those who have the deffinition of toleration where one has to except their lifestyle, by their own deffinition, they are intolerant for not accepting ours.