To Cut Taxes or NOT....that is the question...

[Toro]

the tax hikes under clinton/bush did help close the deficits, but so did Clinton's massive welfare reform and defense cuts.

Absolutely. And in Canada, they also cut spending. But they also raised taxes significantly. We will have to cut spending to close our deficit in the future.

Remember, Reagan's tax cuts blew a whole so wide open in the budget that Reagan had to partially reverse his tax cuts in the following years. If tax cuts never close deficits, they should also never create them either. Yet Reagan created enormous deficits.

 

[elvis]

the tax hikes under clinton/bush did help close the deficits, but so did Clinton's massive welfare reform and defense cuts.

Absolutely. And in Canada, they also cut spending. But they also raised taxes significantly. We will have to cut spending to close our deficit in the future.

Remember, Reagan's tax cuts blew a whole so wide open in the budget that Reagan had to partially reverse his tax cuts in the following years. If tax cuts never close deficits, they should also never create them either. Yet Reagan created enormous deficits.

Reagan's deficits were caused more by the "peace race".

 

[kyzr]

here is a link to the WSJ about Obama's letting the Bush tax cuts expire.
Obama budget lets Bush tax cuts expire - MarketWatch

I actually support that. Anyone who whines about their taxes going from 35% to 37% gets no sympayjy from me. Besides, the more taxes get cut, the more jobs they outsource. IMHO we need to do a better job with taxes viz outsourcing. I also like Obama's going after off-shore tax cheats. I hope he gets the Swiss to cooperate. There are something like 57,000 numbered Swiss bank accounts for US citizens that need to get taxed.

The GOP needs to get new talking points. How about creating US jobs instead of outsourcing?

 

[Skull Pilot]

the tax hikes under clinton/bush did help close the deficits, but so did Clinton's massive welfare reform and defense cuts.

Absolutely. And in Canada, they also cut spending. But they also raised taxes significantly. We will have to cut spending to close our deficit in the future.

Remember, Reagan's tax cuts blew a whole so wide open in the budget that Reagan had to partially reverse his tax cuts in the following years. If tax cuts never close deficits, they should also never create them either. Yet Reagan created enormous deficits.

Reagan also spent a ton of dough. You cant control deficits with a one pronged approach.

If we do not reign in spending there is not a tax hike imaginable that will reduce the deficit.

We could and should freeze taxes where they are and slash spending.

Let's see where that gets us since it has never been tried in the US

 

[Old Rocks]

I keep hearing the GOP guys on TV whining about cutting taxes. With the deficit soaring is that really a good idea? Why isn't the battle about "cutting spending"?

Lets do a poll about cutting taxes. Then we can look at cutting spending in the next thread....

We need to see a major tax increase for those making above the 500 K level. And a much smaller increase for those making above 65 K.

You cannot fight wars and rebuild a long neglected infrastructure simply by borrowing money. War is all outgo, no income. And failing to maintain an infrastructure means that potential businesses lack the basics to do business.

The Republicans proved for eight years that they were total fiscal screwballs, and nearly took this nation down into another Great Depression. Now the Democrats are proving themselves to be only slightly better.

No balls at all in the Democratic Party. Complete inability to state the reality of where we are fiscally and push for the neccessary tax increases.

Complete failure to push for tariffs on the goods of nations that do not follow similiar environmental rules that we and europe do. That do not have adaquete labor laws protecting their workers. That do not allow labor unions to operate freely.

Neither party at this point seems to have any connection with reality.

 

[Old Rocks]

here is a link to the WSJ about Obama's letting the Bush tax cuts expire.
Obama budget lets Bush tax cuts expire - MarketWatch

I actually support that. Anyone who whines about their taxes going from 35% to 37% gets no sympayjy from me. Besides, the more taxes get cut, the more jobs they outsource. IMHO we need to do a better job with taxes viz outsourcing. I also like Obama's going after off-shore tax cheats. I hope he gets the Swiss to cooperate. There are something like 57,000 numbered Swiss bank accounts for US citizens that need to get taxed.

The GOP needs to get new talking points. How about creating US jobs instead of outsourcing?

Ain't gonna happen. They can make far more money, the very wealthy, by paying an Indonesian factory $12 for a pair of sneakers, which they then sell for $130, than manufacturing those shoes here in the US for $30, and then selling for $130.

Just one example. It is all about more money for the very wealthy. And damn the American worker.

Look at the increase in real money for the very wealthy as compared to the decrease in real income for the American worker over the last 30 years.

Time for those that have gained so much at the expense of those that have little to pay for some of the infrastructure that they depend on.

 

[Old Rocks]

the tax hikes under clinton/bush did help close the deficits, but so did Clinton's massive welfare reform and defense cuts.

Absolutely. And in Canada, they also cut spending. But they also raised taxes significantly. We will have to cut spending to close our deficit in the future.

Remember, Reagan's tax cuts blew a whole so wide open in the budget that Reagan had to partially reverse his tax cuts in the following years. If tax cuts never close deficits, they should also never create them either. Yet Reagan created enormous deficits.

Reagan's deficits were caused more by the "peace race".

Reagon's deficits were caused by spending more than was being raised in taxes. It does not matter at all what the money was spent on. It is complete bullshit to state that a deficit is just fine for one thing, and not for another.

There are times, such as WW2 and the Depression that you have to spend more than you take in. But the tax structure should then reflect that neccessity.

 

[Old Rocks]

In fact, we should pass a law that anytime we go to war, declared or undeclared, that the tax laws from WW2 automatically take effect. That would prevent the kind of foolishness we saw in the previous administration.

 

[Jon]

To balance the budget and cut the deficit, we need to:

1. Cut spending on worthless programs, including, but not limited to, most of the social programs.
2. Start paying off the national debt in heaps to avoid interest charges.
3. Raise tax rates to pay off the national debt faster.
4. Remove most of the stupid credits and deductions that allow taxpayers to avoid taxes on large chunks of their income. Also, raising the AMT is not a bad idea.

Once the debt is minimized and spending is under control, we can lower tax rates to more reasonable amounts. The truth is that this entire country put us in debt, not the Presidents, not Congress, not the wars. We did it to ourselves by living outside of our means for two decades. It's time we all pay up. Not to sound too much like Obama (who, when he said this, didn't really mean it), but it's time we all cut back on luxuries for a while and take responsibility for our past improprieties.

It's like at work, where you have the sodas in the fridge and everyone puts in 50 cents for a soda. Someone's going to take one without paying and leave an IOU. At the end of the month, they true up. If they don't true up, the soda fund doesn't have enough to replenish (or someone else has to pay extra to cover the rest...a whole different analogy not related to this discussion). It's time for Americans to true up. We've all been leaving IOU's for years and never paying them back, and now we don't have enough to keep America going.

 

[The Rabbi]

I keep hearing the GOP guys on TV whining about cutting taxes. With the deficit soaring is that really a good idea? Why isn't the battle about "cutting spending"?

Lets do a poll about cutting taxes. Then we can look at cutting spending in the next thread....

We need to see a major tax increase for those making above the 500 K level. And a much smaller increase for those making above 65 K.

You cannot fight wars and rebuild a long neglected infrastructure simply by borrowing money. War is all outgo, no income. And failing to maintain an infrastructure means that potential businesses lack the basics to do business.

The Republicans proved for eight years that they were total fiscal screwballs, and nearly took this nation down into another Great Depression. Now the Democrats are proving themselves to be only slightly better.

No balls at all in the Democratic Party. Complete inability to state the reality of where we are fiscally and push for the neccessary tax increases.

Complete failure to push for tariffs on the goods of nations that do not follow similiar environmental rules that we and europe do. That do not have adaquete labor laws protecting their workers. That do not allow labor unions to operate freely.

Neither party at this point seems to have any connection with reality.

If your plan were workable E.Germany would be a powerhouse.
As it is, raising taxes on your most productive citizens discourages them from being productive. It reduces overall GDP growth. It encourages further deficit spending because there is no incentive among lawmakers to economize on any programs.
All of this has been tested before. Pace Toro, every time taxes have been raised in this country the deficit goes up, not down.
And raising taxes in a recession is way stupid.

 

[Xenophon]

If you raise taxes, the #1 problem is the politicians begin to think they are entilled to your money.

Cutting taxes, the #1 problem is finding the revenue to cover expenses.

Right now we have a delusional and disfuntional government that refuses to stop spending more then it takes in and does not even attempt to pay the debt, but instead treats all savings as 'found money' to be spent on new entitillments.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why is it the libbies never ever mention cutting spending?

I've mentioned across the board cuts repeatedly. Conservatives generally run away from that because they don't want to cut their pet interests, starting with defense...

 

[NYcarbineer]

All you really have to do is start making the taxpayers pay for everything they want, when they get it.

 

[Darkwind]

I keep hearing the GOP guys on TV whining about cutting taxes. With the deficit soaring is that really a good idea? Why isn't the battle about "cutting spending"?

Lets do a poll about cutting taxes. Then we can look at cutting spending in the next thread....

To begin, deficits are caused by spending, not taxation.

But a tax cut to people is not going to make any difference right now. What is needed is a spending cut. A huge spending cut and then targeted tax cuts to small business to stimulate economic activity.

 

[FA_Q2]

In addition, this nation NEEDS a flat tax that is tiered to income generation that lacks ALL tax breaks. Taxes are a joke because the wealthy can in many cases find ways to avoid taxes. Hell, the money that would be saved on IRS expenditures alone would be worth it. Granted, a lot of jobs will be lost at H&R Block but those are jobs that do not produce and that is another huge issue n this country – the amount of GDP that is gleaned from industries that produce NOTHING.

 

[kyzr]

Giving tax breaks to the wealthy just means that they use the money to move more jobs overseas. I prefer tax breaks for domestic job creation, and stiff tax penalties for outsourcing jobs.

 

[MIPS]

I keep hearing the GOP guys on TV whining about cutting taxes. With the deficit soaring is that really a good idea? Why isn't the battle about "cutting spending"?

It should be about cutting spending, however that's not what gets politicians re-elected since if you cut spending you have less to work with when it comes time to start buying votes. That being said without commensurate reductions in spending there can be no tax cutting, there can only be "tax shifting" as in shifting tax collections from now into the future since we are running at an operating deficit that lost revenue will eventually have to be made up (with interest).

I know the old argument from the supply-siders that goes along the lines of "tax cuts will allow us to grow the economy (and thus revenues) out of deficit spending", however doesn't seem to be working out lately since the Federal Government inevitably increases spending at a faster clip than revenue growth.

We need dramatic reductions in Federal Spending and personally I do not see any way that's going to happen without one or more of the following:

1.) elimination of the existing central banking system that allows the Federal Government to debase the currency whenever it needs to fund something that it doesn't want to go out and raise taxes to fund.

2.) a strict constitutional balanced budget amendment

3.) a popular revolution brought about by an economic catastrophe, currency crisis or federal default.

Even the CBO isn't forecasting any point that the Federal Government is not in deficit spending mode (last time I looked anyways), which means we're essentially looking at huge deficit spending as far as the eye can see and that's not even taking into account the already enormous unfunded liabilities on the books, does anybody think this is sustainable?

We're already technically bankrupt since our liabilities exceed our total assets and our expenditures exceed our income, it doesn't get any rosier from here on out.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Skull neg repped me for saying we should cut spending

 

[elvis]

I keep hearing the GOP guys on TV whining about cutting taxes. With the deficit soaring is that really a good idea? Why isn't the battle about "cutting spending"?

Lets do a poll about cutting taxes. Then we can look at cutting spending in the next thread....

We need to see a major tax increase for those making above the 500 K level. And a much smaller increase for those making above 65 K.

You cannot fight wars and rebuild a long neglected infrastructure simply by borrowing money. War is all outgo, no income. And failing to maintain an infrastructure means that potential businesses lack the basics to do business.

The Republicans proved for eight years that they were total fiscal screwballs, and nearly took this nation down into another Great Depression. Now the Democrats are proving themselves to be only slightly better.

No balls at all in the Democratic Party. Complete inability to state the reality of where we are fiscally and push for the neccessary tax increases.

Complete failure to push for tariffs on the goods of nations that do not follow similiar environmental rules that we and europe do. That do not have adaquete labor laws protecting their workers. That do not allow labor unions to operate freely.

Neither party at this point seems to have any connection with reality.

If your plan were workable E.Germany would be a powerhouse.
As it is, raising taxes on your most productive citizens discourages them from being productive. It reduces overall GDP growth. It encourages further deficit spending because there is no incentive among lawmakers to economize on any programs.
All of this has been tested before. Pace Toro, every time taxes have been raised in this country the deficit goes up, not down.
And raising taxes in a recession is way stupid.

but he wants our country to turn into East Germany.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Elvis negged me again for once again asserting we need to cut spending