to all "fellow citizen's of the world"

[Charles_Main]

I stand corrected. He did say the word "torture".

I agree 100% with his statement, don't you? I don't see anything wrong with this. What could possibly be wrong with this statement?

I see nothing wrong with the statement, I see something wrong with where he said it, and who he said it too.

 

[Chris]

Charles, I don't understand your outrage about about Obama's statment about torture. The only way I can understand your outrage, is if I conclude it is a phony, partisan faux outrage.

Obama made a fairly benign statement on torture in front of 200 thousand citizens of a friendly, allied country. It wasn't even an apology. It was a general, benign statement about our values.

Bush, and his spokespersons went on Arab television and groveled and apologized on television to tens of millions of muslims for the abuse of iraqis at Abu Ghraib. If you're so concerned about the US being embarrassed overseas, why didn't that bother you?

Bush stood in front of the Israeli Parliament, and effectively called Obama an appeaser, equivalent to Neville Chamberlein. Where was your outrage then?

Yes, Bush said Obama was an appeaser because he said he would negotiate with Iran. Then Bush sent his own representative to Iran, and spokeschic Dana Perino refused to call it a negotiation. It was ridiculous.

 

[Charles_Main]

Charles, I don't understand your outrage about about Obama's statment about torture. The only way I can understand your outrage, is if I conclude it is a phony, partisan faux outrage.

Obama made a fairly benign statement on torture in front of 200 thousand citizens of a friendly, allied country. It wasn't even an apology. It was a general, benign statement about our values.

it outrages me because Obama knew damn well who he was talking to when he said it. That comment got the most applause of the whole speech, for a reason. Because the crowd he was talking to was loaded with people who think we use torture as a policy. Obama knew damn well he was playing into that False perception when he said it. IMO anyways.

 

[Chris]

it outrages me because Obama knew damn well who he was talking to when he said it. That comment got the most applause of the whole speech, for a reason. Because the crowd he was talking to was loaded with people who think we use torture as a policy. Obama knew damn well he was playing into that False perception when he said it. IMO anyways.

False perception?

Did you know what waterboarding was before Bush was elected?

 

[Charles_Main]

False perception?

Did you know what waterboarding was before Bush was elected?

Look kirk, let me speak slow so you get it, I do not deny we have used water boarding and other questionable methods. What I am saying is I think that crowd believes we USE TORTURE all the time, and we USE MUCH worse methods of torture than Water boarding. That is the false perception that I am talking about, and it is the false perception I think Obama knew he was playing into when he said it. I use the massive applause it got as evidence to that effect.

 

[Chris]

Look kirk, let me speak slow so you get it, I do not deny we have used water boarding and other questionable methods. What I am saying is I think that crowd believes we USE TORTURE all the time, and we USE MUCH worse methods of torture than Water boarding. That is the false perception that I am talking about, and it is the false perception I think Obama knew he was playing into when he said it. I use the massive applause it got as evidence to that effect.

And one of the most important thing our next president must do is change the perception of America around the world. That is how you gain support for our goals, by showing the world that our goals are lofty and worth supporting.

 

[busara]

I said ANYONE using that phrase is FOS, not just Obama. It's an old rhetorical ploy the elites use when they need something from the masses. He sees himself as a common citizen of the world ?????

and what does obama need from the germans?

 

[Annie]

And one of the most important thing our next president must do is change the perception of America around the world. That is how you gain support for our goals, by showing the world that our goals are lofty and worth supporting.

You know Kirk, I don't think Americans are a whole lot smarter than our 'global citizenry', though more pragmatic most of the time. However your premise that our next president can change the perception of America around the world is quite illustrative. If WE elect an inexperienced, charismatic, young, handsome, black man, their opinion will change. I think that says even less for the 'world' than for the US.

 

[dilloduck]

and what does obama need from the germans?

Their adoration, which he thinks in turns translates into some kind of foreign policy skill. For some reason some Americans think that it's really important for thousands of Europeans LIKE our president.

 

[JimH52]

Me thinks the Germans were thrilled that we may be getting a President who can pronounce three syllable words.

 

[dilloduck]

Me thinks the Germans were thrilled that we may be getting a President who can pronounce three syllable words.

I think you are making an ass out of yourself by saying "me thinks". Wear in the hell do you live? Shakespeare's back yard ?

 

[busara]

Their adoration, which he thinks in turns translates into some kind of foreign policy skill. For some reason some Americans think that it's really important for thousands of Europeans LIKE our president.

im surprised it only takes 4 words to win the adoration of 82 million germans.

i dont think people care how other people feel about our president. they care how the rest of the world feels about us. why is that important? because they may support us if we need to take any large action. like, say invade iraq. if europeans hate us, why would they want their government supporting our governments actions?
the waving of american flags in germany sure seems to be a good start. or did they only bring those out once obama mentioned not torturing prisoners?

 

[busara]

I think you are making an ass out of yourself by saying "me thinks". Wear in the hell do you live? Shakespeare's back yard ?

so you make fun of his grammer, then show you dont know the difference between 'where' and 'wear.' attack substance, not english.

 

[Chris]

im surprised it only takes 4 words to win the adoration of 82 million germans.

i dont think people care how other people feel about our president. they care how the rest of the world feels about us. why is that important? because they may support us if we need to take any large action. like, say invade iraq. if europeans hate us, why would they want their government supporting our governments actions?
the waving of american flags in germany sure seems to be a good start. or did they only bring those out once obama mentioned not torturing prisoners?

Well put.

 

[JimH52]

I think you are making an ass out of yourself by saying "me thinks". Wear in the hell do you live? Shakespeare's back yard ?

You sound like one of those uptight neocons. Look, it wasn't my fault you voted for bush TWICE!

 

[Red Dawn]

it outrages me because Obama knew damn well who he was talking to when he said it. That comment got the most applause of the whole speech, for a reason. Because the crowd he was talking to was loaded with people who think we use torture as a policy. Obama knew damn well he was playing into that False perception when he said it. IMO anyways.

Your making a lot of assumptions, and your "outrage" over this type of thing seems to be all directed at (surprise!) a Democrat, and not at republicans. Were you outraged that Bush effectively called Obama an appeaser in front of the Israeli Parliament?

I think Germans are pretty sophisticated. I doubt everyone in that crowd thinks the American Government tortures every person that we detain. But, the fact is, that we have adopted abuse, humiliation, and torture as "enhanced interrogation" techniques, and the International Red Cross has determined that we do in fact abuse and torture detainees. Do we torture all of them? Of course not. But this nation is supposed to hold itself to a higher morality. We hold ourselves out to the world as a beacon of justice and morality. We shouldn't be torturing anyone. The fact that we do engage in torture and abuse, even on limited scales, is nothing short of appalling. And the rightwing in this country has been far too cavalier in justifying, excusing, or otherwise minimizing BushCo's use of torture. Its alarming frankly, that any american would be an apologist for torture and abuse.

I think Europeans are just glad to see a potential american leader who thinks we should honor justice and morality. I don't think they expect perfection. But, I think europeans would at least like to see us not making excuses for torture, or behaving like a rouge state

 

[Avatar4321]

He made it this far because of the Hubris of Hillary. That is all.

 

[busara]

He made it this far because of the Hubris of Hillary. That is all.

i'd say the MSM should get most of the credit. and his great speaking ability

 

[Glori.B]

so you make fun of his grammer, then show you dont know the difference between 'where' and 'wear.' attack substance, not english.

it's grammar


just sayin'

 

[Charles_Main]

Me thinks the Germans were thrilled that we may be getting a President who can pronounce three syllable words.

Me thinks it has more to do with is standing for Socialist policies, and his stance on the war in Iraq than anything else, but thats just me.

Europeans hate the Idea the US as the world leader, and they Think Obama will make us less of one. Simple as that IMO.