Time.

[Zhukov]

This thread reminded me of a conversation I had on a different board awhile back. The attributes of the "fourth dimensional being" I mention could easily be applied to what people commonly call God.

This is an amalgamation of several different posts in the same thread. I've placed them together in what I hope is a coherent format.

Just some interesting ideas to chew on.

It seems to me that the very structure of our universe, as we currently understand it, describes a predetermined future. It’s not anything that we could be aware of or perceive in any way, nor does it really affect free will. We have free will, it just that in a sense we’ve already made our choices. We made our choices before we even existed, as we perceive it. But a sentient fourth-dimensional being observing our universe would be able to examine all four dimensions of our universe; it’s entire length, width, depth, and time span. And if the entire time span of our universe can be observed, then the future is predetermined. Ultimately, it changes nothing.

As far as forecasting the future, I don’t really believe its possible; but the mind is an incredibly complex organ, much of which is still not understood.

Time traveling into the future is proven, although it’s not really time traveling. Riding in a vehicle moving at near light speed dilates time, and when you got off, you would have moved into the future faster than someone who had not been in your spaceship. Using this method, there isn’t any length of time you skipped over, so you didn’t really time travel in the sense I think some people are talking about. Traveling back in time you’d probably have to find some way to leave our universe, which would in all likelihood destroy you. Travel through a black hole or worm hole would most likely destroy you, and any attempt you made at averting that destruction, if successful, would likely result in counteracting the very effect you desired by jumping into the hole to begin with.

The universe is infinite with a finite volume in the shape of a hyper-sphere. Traveling in any direction for a long enough period of time will lead you back to where you started. And before you ask, it is infinite, without end, in the sense that the surface of a sphere is. And like the surface of a sphere it has no end but a finite surface area, and movement in any direction leads you back to where you started. Only our universe is warped in at least one more dimension than the surface of a sphere; hence it is a hyper-sphere. Therefore, you could not in fact leave it by simply traveling beyond the furthest matter. Additionally, the universe is expanding in the same sense the surface of a balloon expands when you inflate it, but again our universe is expanding in at least one more dimension.

You are a three-dimensional being. You posses width, depth, and length, and you can observe and move freely within these three dimensions. However you are dragged beyond your control one way through time, unable to even stop in an instant and explore, let alone move backwards through it. A fourth-dimensional being would not have this limitation, and would be able to observe and move freely through time. Again, the point was the observation not the observer.

And finally, to use one more one-reduced-dimensional example, if our earlier described expanding two dimensional universe in the form of a sphere increasing in diameter were to come in contact and pass through a three dimensional object such as a sphere that traditionally existed outside said dimension, how would a two-dimensional being in this universe view this object? Initially, at first contact, the sphere could only be seen as a point. As the universe expanded and passed through it however, this point would grow to a circle of increasing diameter as the universe approached the center of our spherical object. Remember, a two dimensional object can only perceive two dimensions and would only be able to see the sphere in cross section and never as a whole. After the midpoint of the sphere, the cross section of the sphere within the universe would decrease in size to a point and then vanish.

So how would we, with our three dimensions, view a hyper sphere? A hyper sphere intersecting with our universe would originally appear as a point and grow into a larger sphere, reach it’s mid-point, and then contract back down to a point, then out of our universe. However instead of the two-dimensional universe experiencing this as it expanded through the third, we would experience this as our universe expanding through the fourth, or time.

It is now generally accepted that the universe originated from a naked singularity around which space was infinitely curved as it constituted the entirety of all matter/energy in said universe. Detected background radiation seems to echo this phenomenon we refer to as the Big Bang. This naked singularity can be described as a point. The ensuing explosion ejected matter in ever direction at once, reducing the severity of the curvature of space, creating what is commonly understood to be a sphere of ever increasing size.

sphere \"sfir\ n
3 : a figure so shaped that every point on its surface is an equal distance from the center


Many scientists hold to the idea that the amount of matter in the universe will slow and eventually reverse this expansion with ever increasing speed to result in the Big Crush, where all the matter/energy in the universe is once again reduced to a naked singularity and space curvature is restored to infinity creating a single point.

So what does that leave us with? How do we describe our universe? An object that evolves from a point, to a sphere of increasing then decreasing size, and finally back to a point, through time. Sounds like a hyper sphere to me.

Cheers.

 

[NewGuy]

I would also add something commonly forgotten. Man cannot assume faster than light travel nor can he go BACK in time for one simple reason:

Matter cannot handle it.

Light speed would cease the matter stability altogether, only complex wave forms could possibly exist as energy to travel any faster.

Going backward, matter would be trying to move forward in time decaying while going backward in over all time causing a standstill that would destroy the matter.

We will never travel through time, but an extradimensional being which can CONTROL time, can do quite a bit. -Including a 6 day creation of everything and assuming a fleshy form.

 

[Zhukov]

Going faster than light might be possible. There is such a thing as a quantum leap (yes, I know, but it is an actual scientific term). The energy state of a particle is not an infinitely reducible line. Energy state's exist in quantum increments, going instantaneously (a time period shorter than Planck Time) from one energy level to the next.

So I've heard theories extrapolating that should it be discovered how to leap over the energy state that would be the speed of light, i.e. sub-luminal to super-luminal, in less than Planck Time, you would not really have been moving at precisely the speed of light at any point in time, and therefore not have violated the infinite mass restriction that light speed imposes.

 

[KLSuddeth]

Do you know how it thrills me to read this thread? Truly it does!


I am composing a reply/explanation that probably wont be posted till tomorrow sometime. When something means a great deal to me, I thnk it over then take my time in posting. Also, Im exhausted so its taking me a bit longer.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by NewGuy
I would also add something commonly forgotten. Man cannot assume faster than light travel nor can he go BACK in time for one simple reason:

Yes, I've never read any serious theories concerning traveling through time backwards. Obviously I shouldn't be able too, but I can't conceive of a way a material form could withstand such a journey.

Asimov wrote a book called The End of Eternity in which technicians moved back and forth through time. In this novella the technicians could only go back as far as when their device was built (it was a sort of time elevator). Though that restriction itself was somehow circumvented. It was so long ago that I barely remember how, but I believe the guy just got a running start.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by NewGuy
I would also add something commonly forgotten. Man cannot assume faster than light travel nor can he go BACK in time for one simple reason:

Matter cannot handle it.

Light speed would cease the matter stability altogether, only complex wave forms could possibly exist as energy to travel any faster.

Going backward, matter would be trying to move forward in time decaying while going backward in over all time causing a standstill that would destroy the matter.

We will never travel through time, but an extradimensional being which can CONTROL time, can do quite a bit. -Including a 6 day creation of everything and assuming a fleshy form.

From what I've read, it might be possibile to travel faster than the speed of light, but not in the conventional sense. As I understand it, modern theory is that gravity warps and bends the fabric of space, hence it may be possible to literally bring to places closer together by what is referred to as "space folding". It should be also noted that there are quantum particles (if i remember correctly) that do travel faster than light, though they are strangely theorized to have no mass.

As for time travel, well I too doubt (but am nonetheless fascinated by) its existance. Though if someone can for some reason exceed the speed of light, Einstein's relativity equation goes bonkers and does seem to suggest that relativistically time will reverse in that inertial frame.

 

[Modu$OperanDi]

Originally posted by Zhukov
It is now generally accepted that the universe originated from a naked singularity around which space was infinitely curved as it constituted the entirety of all matter/energy in said universe. Detected background radiation seems to echo this phenomenon we refer to as the Big Band. This naked singularity can be described as a point. The ensuing explosion ejected matter in ever direction at once, reducing the severity of the curvature of space, creating what is commonly understood to be a sphere of ever increasing size.

That is not generally accepted anymore. As I said, String Theory suggests the galaxies in this Universe (all moving away from eachother) had to start a minimum distance apart. All of the matter in the Universe collapses until it reaches a certain 'breaking point' and then the 'strings' repel, which is the big bang. It is helpful to think of the Universe as all one big black hole. Once everything in the Universe decays, it will eventually stop expanding (maybe), matter will gradually run into itself, clump up until a black hole, and all the matter in the previous universe will be sucked into the black hole, where it will eventually repel. VERY rough and not due justice explanation. We might as well b the 20 billionth version of this Universe. Not to mention the same thing could be going on in an unfathomable multiverse of matter - of course all without extraterrestrial life and all for the all important purpose that we obey God's word! But what do I know, I'm evil, I hate people, and I need to take a long look in the mirror.

 

[dmp]

I bet our universe is actually contained in a Kitty-Cat's collar.



:Meninblack:

 

[KLSuddeth]

Time can be considered in 2 different ways primarily; linear time and non-linear time or quantum time
(haha! quantum time = oxymoron/paradox)
Now some of you are already saying, ‘no no no – only linear time is real”. Well, here is where I challenge you to open your minds, if only briefly to listen, perhaps consider and maybe even learn something. If you still cant see outside the box, challenge me to do so - I love to learn

First lets look at something that we all should already know…
Webster’s defines time in the following way(s) (including but not limited to):
1. a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future c : LEISURE <time for reading>
2 : the point or period when something occurs : OCCASION
3 a : an appointed, fixed, or customary moment or hour for something to happen, begin, or end <arrived ahead of time> b : an opportune or suitable moment <decided it was time to retire>; often used in the phrase about time <about time for a change> 4 a : an historical period : AGE b : a division of geologic chronology c : conditions at present or at some specified period — usually used in plural <times are hard> <move with the times> d : the present time <issues of the time>


We could describe the perception of time as quantum mutatus ab illo; meaning it has changed from what once was into what is now (loosely translated). We could suppose that God and time are not relative at all – but this would be an ignorance as well as an insult upon even the most basic intellect. Why? Because time is not God-created. Time is a creation of humankind. God had and has no use for measuring time. However, humans seem to have the need to do just that. Don’t agree with me? Give me one supporting fact that God has a use for time. As Ive said in the past, I don’t care about anyone ‘sourcing’ their fact(s) – I care more and will respect more the answer that comes from a person’s deep believing. Anyone can quote a source. Im challenging you all to THINK. Not look something up. Huge difference my friends!

Now lets figure in quantum mechanics. First, what is quantum mechanics? Simply explained, it is a theory of matter that is based upon the concept of the possession of wave properties by elementary particles. This affords mathematical interpretation of the structure and interactions of matter upon the basis OF these properties. In this way, it incorporates within it quantum theory. QT has been extremely, and is hugely successful. It can explain one of the greatest mysteries of modern science: why the world of atoms behaves so very differently from the everyday world of everything else. QT will also one day provide indisputable scientific proof of the etherical DNA…..but I digress.
This has led humankind to the invention, construction as well as improvement upon technology….for instance computers, lasers and nuclear reactors. QT also explains to us why the Sun shines and why the air around us is gaseous and the ground beneath our feet is solid. Furthermore it provides understanding to, as well as defines something very disturbing to many people and/or thought patterns, and that is that some atoms or even a collection of atoms (resulting in matter of a sort) can exist in many places at ONE TIME. This isn't just a hokey suppositioned theory-it has concrete observable consequences but must be learned and viewed with the abstract mind. Reconciling the differences between what is accepted and what is challenged, is like comparing intelligence to intellect.

Moving on…..

Now, God created the Universe, correct? Correct. Why only the universe? Aren’t we presumptuous creatures to concur that there is only one? Breaking down the word UNIVERSE: PREFIX=UNI meaning ONE. SUFFIX=VERSE which is derived from the latin term niversus meaning whole. So the Universe is one whole. Why not a/the multiverse? Why not a/the Omniverse? Wouldn’t this be ‘more correct’? Doesn’t it make more sense? If there is not a beginning nor end to the Universe, then how can it be described as one whole? Surely our Creator did not intend for it to be so defined?

Regarding the thread at hand, I don’t think that what God has given us is being considered as strongly as it should be. That my dear reader, is your free will. Yes, God has a plan. In our desire to make everything more difficult, we’ve lost the simplicity OF that plan. God’s plan and our free will are not always one in the same, but since we WERE GIVEN that gift we must live by is as states within the Universal Law of Cause and Effect. Sure we can decide to take road A rather than road B (cause) and it very wellWILL lead us down a different path (effect)…hence, free will.

Spirituality IS the God Conscioussness. It exists. Recognizing that divine spark within oneself is an amazing thing. You ARE more than your religion, more than your body AND more than your mind. You are the creation of the Supreme Creator….in the Creator’s Own Image! How awesome is that????

God’s perspective is so much more than ours as humans. We can strive to understand it, strive to hold it within us and our lives, argue over it for the rest of our lifetimes….but its my opinion that we can never fully comprehend it while we are still in our human forms.

Regarding the question of ‘Im wondering how God works’
God doesn’t work. God simply is. The simplicity of this statement is much too abstract for the small amount of our minds that we use to grasp. Id like to move into a discussion of the dimensional beingness at this time, but I think I might lost whatever little credibility that I have left – lol

I don’t know what Ive added to this thread...probably not much – I think Ive let my meandering mind wander far off course, but Im tired – I’ll check out what Ive written after coffee in the morning and probably want to spit in disgust.

One last thing…..To Zhukov……WE ALL need to take a long look it the mirror, my friend.
I know I do.
I respect you for knowing that you do.
I also know I enjoyed reading your responses here.
(Additionally, Id LOVE to have a discussion re. String theory with you sometime.....just for fun!)

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
Time can be considered in 2 different ways primarily; linear time and non-linear time or quantum time
(haha! quantum time = oxymoron/paradox)
Now some of you are already saying, ‘no no no – only linear time is real”. Well, here is where I challenge you to open your minds, if only briefly to listen, perhaps consider and maybe even learn something. If you still cant see outside the box, challenge me to do so - I love to learn

First lets look at something that we all should already know…
Webster’s defines time in the following way(s) (including but not limited to):
1. a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future c : LEISURE <time for reading>
2 : the point or period when something occurs : OCCASION
3 a : an appointed, fixed, or customary moment or hour for something to happen, begin, or end <arrived ahead of time> b : an opportune or suitable moment <decided it was time to retire>; often used in the phrase about time <about time for a change> 4 a : an historical period : AGE b : a division of geologic chronology c : conditions at present or at some specified period — usually used in plural <times are hard> <move with the times> d : the present time <issues of the time>


We could describe the perception of time as quantum mutatus ab illo; meaning it has changed from what once was into what is now (loosely translated). We could suppose that God and time are not relative at all – but this would be an ignorance as well as an insult upon even the most basic intellect. Why? Because time is not God-created. Time is a creation of humankind. God had and has no use for measuring time. However, humans seem to have the need to do just that. Don’t agree with me? Give me one supporting fact that God has a use for time. As Ive said in the past, I don’t care about anyone ‘sourcing’ their fact(s) – I care more and will respect more the answer that comes from a person’s deep believing. Anyone can quote a source. Im challenging you all to THINK. Not look something up. Huge difference my friends!

Now lets figure in quantum mechanics. First, what is quantum mechanics? Simply explained, it is a theory of matter that is based upon the concept of the possession of wave properties by elementary particles. This affords mathematical interpretation of the structure and interactions of matter upon the basis OF these properties. In this way, it incorporates within it quantum theory. QT has been extremely, and is hugely successful. It can explain one of the greatest mysteries of modern science: why the world of atoms behaves so very differently from the everyday world of everything else. QT will also one day provide indisputable scientific proof of the etherical DNA…..but I digress.
This has led humankind to the invention, construction as well as improvement upon technology….for instance computers, lasers and nuclear reactors. QT also explains to us why the Sun shines and why the air around us is gaseous and the ground beneath our feet is solid. Furthermore it provides understanding to, as well as defines something very disturbing to many people and/or thought patterns, and that is that some atoms or even a collection of atoms (resulting in matter of a sort) can exist in many places at ONE TIME. This isn't just a hokey suppositioned theory-it has concrete observable consequences but must be learned and viewed with the abstract mind. Reconciling the differences between what is accepted and what is challenged, is like comparing intelligence to intellect.

Moving on…..

Now, God created the Universe, correct? Correct. Why only the universe? Aren’t we presumptuous creatures to concur that there is only one? Breaking down the word UNIVERSE: PREFIX=UNI meaning ONE. SUFFIX=VERSE which is derived from the latin term niversus meaning whole. So the Universe is one whole. Why not a/the multiverse? Why not a/the Omniverse? Wouldn’t this be ‘more correct’? Doesn’t it make more sense? If there is not a beginning nor end to the Universe, then how can it be described as one whole? Surely our Creator did not intend for it to be so defined?

Regarding the thread at hand, I don’t think that what God has given us is being considered as strongly as it should be. That my dear reader, is your free will. Yes, God has a plan. In our desire to make everything more difficult, we’ve lost the simplicity OF that plan. God’s plan and our free will are not always one in the same, but since we WERE GIVEN that gift we must live by is as states within the Universal Law of Cause and Effect. Sure we can decide to take road A rather than road B (cause) and it very wellWILL lead us down a different path (effect)…hence, free will.

Spirituality IS the God Conscioussness. It exists. Recognizing that divine spark within oneself is an amazing thing. You ARE more than your religion, more than your body AND more than your mind. You are the creation of the Supreme Creator….in the Creator’s Own Image! How awesome is that????

God’s perspective is so much more than ours as humans. We can strive to understand it, strive to hold it within us and our lives, argue over it for the rest of our lifetimes….but its my opinion that we can never fully comprehend it while we are still in our human forms.

Regarding the question of ‘Im wondering how God works’
God doesn’t work. God simply is. The simplicity of this statement is much too abstract for the small amount of our minds that we use to grasp. Id like to move into a discussion of the dimensional beingness at this time, but I think I might lost whatever little credibility that I have left – lol

I don’t know what Ive added to this thread...probably not much – I think Ive let my meandering mind wander far off course, but Im tired – I’ll check out what Ive written after coffee in the morning and probably want to spit in disgust.

One last thing…..To Zhukov……WE ALL need to take a long look it the mirror, my friend.
I know I do.
I respect you for knowing that you do.
I also know I enjoyed reading your responses here.
(Additionally, Id LOVE to have a discussion re. String theory with you sometime.....just for fun!)

you are wrong.

:

hehe

 

[dilloduck]

Thanks KL---think you did it without opening yourself up to silly critcism too (not an easy thing to do here). tactful---very tactful !

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth

We could describe the perception of time as quantum mutatus ab illo; meaning it has changed from what once was into what is now (loosely translated). We could suppose that God and time are not relative at all – but this would be an ignorance as well as an insult upon even the most basic intellect. Why? Because time is not God-created. Time is a creation of humankind. God had and has no use for measuring time. However, humans seem to have the need to do just that. Don’t agree with me? Give me one supporting fact that God has a use for time.

Decay. Why would decay be necessary? It would be a natural result of time which can only be defined as radiation upon matter. -Or the effect of energy upon matter can be called "time".

As such, time is necessary for decay of all matter to be cyclical in effect. God created Adam and Eve without capacity for death until sin occurred. At that point decay upon human flesh was introduced in order to allow a destruction of the presence of people upon the planet and bring the energy to its final judgement completing the cycle...."ahses to ashes, dust to dust". Believers then can be brought home to the Lord while all sin in the form of human flesh is erased.

Now lets figure in quantum mechanics. First, what is quantum mechanics? Simply explained, it is a theory of matter that is based upon the concept of the possession of wave properties by elementary particles. This affords mathematical interpretation of the structure and interactions of matter upon the basis OF these properties. In this way, it incorporates within it quantum theory. QT has been extremely, and is hugely successful. It can explain one of the greatest mysteries of modern science: why the world of atoms behaves so very differently from the everyday world of everything else. QT will also one day provide indisputable scientific proof of the etherical DNA…..but I digress.

The funny part is that modern day fields of electronics can already show unique wave properties with ranges of "fingerprints" by nature of their always being in or out of phase with other energies. There is never a "clean" wave anywhere unless filtered first. Another prime example of science not knowing what it already proves.

This has led humankind to the invention, construction as well as improvement upon technology….for instance computers, lasers and nuclear reactors. QT also explains to us why the Sun shines and why the air around us is gaseous and the ground beneath our feet is solid. Furthermore it provides understanding to, as well as defines something very disturbing to many people and/or thought patterns, and that is that some atoms or even a collection of atoms (resulting in matter of a sort) can exist in many places at ONE TIME.

Their physical properties? -Or are we talking their energies?

This isn't just a hokey suppositioned theory-it has concrete observable consequences but must be learned and viewed with the abstract mind.

Or one that can see the evidence for what it represents as a whole without being filtered by predispositions. -Oh. Wait. that IS the abstract mind in a way.

Now, God created the Universe, correct? Correct. Why only the universe? Aren’t we presumptuous creatures to concur that there is only one? Breaking down the word UNIVERSE: PREFIX=UNI meaning ONE. SUFFIX=VERSE which is derived from the latin term niversus meaning whole. So the Universe is one whole. Why not a/the multiverse? Why not a/the Omniverse? Wouldn’t this be ‘more correct’? Doesn’t it make more sense? If there is not a beginning nor end to the Universe, then how can it be described as one whole? Surely our Creator did not intend for it to be so defined?

I think we simply chose to define universe incorrectly as we assumed to know the boundries of space when the phrase was defined. Now that we see it is bigger, we define all incorectly built upon an incorrect premise. -Most scientific fields do this in some way.

 

[KLSuddeth]

Now I need coffee again

 

[dilloduck]

*erases the chalkboard*----Ok kids---lets try this idea !!

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth


Now I need coffee again

That's ok, I am sicker to my stomach than I have been in my life. I am trying to keep myself together without food.



Hopefully I make sense. I am digging things out of memory from 10 years ago for this discussion.



Are we on somewhat of the same track in the realm of matter/energy?

 

[KLSuddeth]

That's ok, I am sicker to my stomach than I have been in my life. I am trying to keep myself together without food.

Im sorry

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
Im sorry

-Don't be sorry...."that which doesn't kill us...." .....makes us wish we were dead.

:cof:

I'll get over it.

It would be a wimpy death anyway.

 

[Modu$OperanDi]

Christians - What is the purpose of other galaxis if not to create/support/contain life? Why did 'God' put them there? Or are they illusions?

 

[dilloduck]

OH NO-----now galaxys have to have a purpose??

 

[KLSuddeth]

yes. everything has a purpose.
(especially me)