Time to declare War on Islam

[flacaltenn]

I hate to make light of this but that ability for "the family to forgive an honor killer" and thus make them innocent is just way too tempting. It's as warped and demented as I can fathom.

So how does that conversation go?

In my best Pakistani accent...

"as you all know, Dad crushed dear Mamouna's head with a tire iron. And the authorities want to know if we forgive him -- so I want you to think about the disgrace she brought this family and upon you. Because Dad could be prosecuted for defending us from those dishonorable actions"

"mom? would they KILL DAD? "

"Yes Yes --- that's what they might do"

"mom? Will I be able to marry because my sister's evil actions if I don't forgive Dad?"

"Probably not. Will be very hard to find a good suitor for you if the family is still dishonored and Dad is dead. But you know dear -- I will try my best to get you a proper husband no matter what we decide."

"OK --then I forgive him and you should too".

"Well then -- shall we vote? "







Justice for "honor killings" in Pakistan..

 

[Coyote]

Gawd Coyote --- you're trying to wear me down with all this formatting. And nuances and footwork about honor killings and honor acid attacks. The latter of which I don't even understand the relevance or your confident assertion that it occurs in places other than Muslim nations. But in Muslim Arab nations, they don't NEED acid. They arrest people for these offenses and stone them or jail them or kill them by the power of the state.

And I've yet to see evidence for acid as a weapon of choice for an honor killing anyway. Not like hitting your sister with a piece of lumber or drugging her and smothering her.

So I'm starting fresh.

Ok...so you are trying really really hard to claim it's NOT honor killing when it's done in India but it IS honor killing in Islamic countries??? Come on flacaltenn - in India it's about CASTE and FAMILY HONOR. How many more articles do you need? That particular article, while it highlighted one woman, talked also about honor killing in broader terms, in India. Here are some more:

NONE of these articles give ANY statistics on Honor Killings. I can't remember HOW you went off on Honor "acid attacks", but those are not killings. And I saw almost NO examples of FAMILIES (a prerequisite for an "honor anything" using acid as a weapon. These last 2 articles are mum on numbers. The NY Times article is confined to one RURAL area where traditions are ancient. And the article said SOMETIMES they result in NON-family members taking out violence. These are not NATIONAL problems. It is ILLEGAL in India. Honor killings and punishments in ARAB Muslim states are largely RECOGNIZED and SANCTIONED by the freakin' govt.

Someone, at some point - brought up acid attacks and honor killings SEPERATELY. I addressed them as SEPERATE things INDICATIVE of CULTURAL problems, the same cultural problems I did NOT I didn't start THAT conversation nor did I ever say honor killing was done by acid. Wasn't it YOU who brought up acid attacks and honor killing?

Ok. Let's look at honor killings and statistics then because you sure are working hard to excuse it in non-Muslim cultures.

Statistics & Data

• 5000 honour killings internationally per year.
• 1000 honour killings occur in India
• 1000 honour killings occur in Pakistan
• 12 honour killings per year in UK

Honour Killings By Region

India and Pakistan both have recorded rates of ‘honour’ killings of around 1000 per year, although as ever figures remain unreliable. The levels of such crimes are less known in Bangladesh, but there have been cases in diasporic Bangladeshi communities so there is a potential risk there.


In both India and Pakistan, the informal court systems present problems to women. Where the central criminal justice system is weak or unaffordable to people living in rural communities, tribal jirga or caste panchayat may order HBV in cases of intra-familial disputes. Such informal legal systems may demand the deaths of women, or in some cases compensation marriages where young girls and women are forced to marry to restore equilibrium in family disputes. It was one such jirga that ordered the notorious gang-rape of Mukhtaran Mai.


Particular issues in Hindu communities are caste and gotra (patriline). Marriage opportunitess are very restricted and there may be particularly fierce opposition to any contact between a woman and a male of lower caste; it is often the case that it is the man who is the primary victim of violence by the family of the woman he has approached. While it may be required that any partnerships do not lose caste, marriages within a gotra are condemned as incestuous, despite their rarely being any close consanguinueity between any members of the same gotra. Panchayats have actively policed gotra restrictions and called for the deaths of couples who have contravened such norms.


While in both India and Pakistan there have been a great deal of discussion around ‘honour’ killings, India has taken more assertive legal action, including awarding the death penalty to large numbers of persons who have colluded in murder. In Pakistan, there is more of a culture of impunity and while police reports may be filed, there is often little follow-up, particularly in rural areas.


In Afghanistan, ‘honour’ crimes remain very high along with many other forms of violence against women, and are increasing as attitudes fail to keep pace with economic and social changes. Economic immiseration has also led to high levels of early marriage. Finding safety is difficult as women fleeing their husbands or families may be imprisoned and returned to them and there is, again, a culture of impunity even more profound than that which exists in Pakistan.​

Honour killings: India's crying shame

According to statistics from the United Nations, one in five cases of honour killing internationally every year comes from India. Of the 5000 cases reported internationally, 1000 are from India. Non-governmental organisations put the number at four times this figure. They claim it is around 20,000 cases globally every year.

....Some gruesome cases that have been reported in the media in recent times from different regions in the country include that of 23 year old Dharmender Barak and 18 year old Nidhi Barak, who paid a heavy price for defying their families and falling in love.


The couple, from a village in Rohtak district in Harayana, were tortured, mutilated and killed by the girl’s father and their relatives when they tried to run away and marry. A friend whom the couple had confided in, leaked their plans to the girl’s parents, who lured them back with assurances, only to allegedly kill them in the most cruel manner. The police is treating the ‘double murder’ as a ‘honour crime’.


In September 2013, the Haryana police arrested a police sub-inspector in connection with the killing of a 19 year old girl from Panipat. Meenakshi had eloped with her lover and the cop had tracked her down and handed her over to her family, who then allegedly murdered her.

​

Is this what you call families "threatening to disown children"? Is that all it is? This is NOT a malignant culture - SERIOUSLY?????

Families all over the world threaten to disown children over marriage choices. And BTW in India -- even if a child's choice is WITHIN a Caste it can still be vetoed by their parents. This is not malignant culture. My grandmother said if I married a Goyim it would kill her. About 2600 times. I married a nice Jewish girl and when we visited she pointed to a pic of an earlier girlfriend on her desk and told my wife how lovely she was in that photo. It's all drama.

Wow. Honor killing in India is "all drama".

Acid is cheaper than milk in all those countries, yet you are still trying to claim that throwing acid on women in Muslim countries has a different MOTIVATION than throwing acid on women in Hindu countries?

Honor killings to me are murder - there is no difference. It's murder, but flac - you brought in honor killings as symptomatic of a sick MUSLIM culture, seperate from "murder"....so.,....is it murder or something else? And if it is something else what makes a sick mysoginest MUSLIM culture any different than a sick mysogonist Hindu culture or a sick mysogonist Christian South American culture - all of which are very paternalistic and chauvanistic and treat women like crap?

Honor killings are illegal in most countries - as murder - but they are seldom prosecuted.

You failed to provide any evidence of WIDE SPREAD "honor acid attacks" in India that were due to being Hindu. Or even done by FAMILIES for their honor. Most all of those anecdotes were about perverts and jilted lovers taking revenge.

And you aren't going to get any evidence of "wide spread honor acid attacks" because I wasn't claiming the acid attacks were honor attacks, but that they and honor killings are symptomatic of a sick culture. Where it's being combatted, and where women's rights are being recongized is in urban educated populations of these countries - get out of the city, and it's the same sick culture you complain about in Muslim countries (which also exhibit differences between educated urban vs uneducated rural/village populations).

I brought up that Media star twerker in Pakistan and the other cases as an example of how much easier it is to GET AWAY with honor killings in Pakistan and Arab countries than it is ANY of the places that you dug up to blow smoke on the situation.. From articles just about the Quandeel murder I LEARNED and you apparently didn't ----

Brother of murdered Pakistani Kim Kardashian boasts of pride at death

Pakistani law allows families to 'forgive' their loved ones meaning they do not face charges for honour killings, but the government has stepped in to ban this from happening to Muhammad Waseem, according to Yahoo News.

Brother of Pakistan's Qandeel Baloch: I'm 'proud' of killing sister - CNN.com

On the list of 145 countries featured in the World Economic Forum's 2015 Gender Gap Report, Pakistan is second to last with regards to gender disparity.
According to the Independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, violence against women is rampant, with as many as 212 women being killed in the name of 'honor' in the first five months of 2016.
Pakistan's Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, has vowed to tackle the problem but critics say few concrete steps have been taken.

Forget the smoke about south africa and India and the other deflections. Do you understand the significance of the facts above? Can you MATCH THOSE? Don't think you can..

Above, I posted to a link that stated how local law enforcement and governments are complicit in honor killings in India as well as statistics on how many are thought to occur. 1000 a year in India. Does that match your claim? Are you still going to insist that it is "smoke" and "deflection"?

And those are different issues than honor killing and disfiguring women with acid.

I think mashing folks on a France boardwalk with a massive truck, while gunning them down out the window is more of an issue affecting WESTERN societies right now -- than honor killings or acid attacks.

I never said differently.

Excuse me for being focused. I'm wondering how you dismiss the weekly carnage from the radical Islamic Terror news.

I don't.

Because there seems to be a lot of dancing and NOT A LOT of remorse or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT about Brussels, or Kenya or San Bernadino, or Istanbul or Nice or Orlando or the dozen other HIDEOUS attacks just THIS YEAR. All inspired by warped culture in Arab Muslim hell holes.

I've condemnend them and ACKNOWLEDGED THEM. What - are you waiting for me to jump on the "War on Islam" bandwagon? Is that what you want because that sure is what everyone else seems to be doing.

How da fuck do you do that? Post after post. Thread after thread?

How is it that people are ONLY concerned about women's rights, violence towards women and SICK MYSOGONISTIC CULTURES when it's perpetrated by Muslims?????

NOT A SINGLE FUCKING THREAD about what happens to women routinely in India or the Congo or Columbia which right on our doorstep but THREAD AFTER THREAD and POST AFTER POST about what Muslims do to women. No one CARES if it isn't Muslims. Do you ever wonder about that?

 

[dannyboys]

Gawd Coyote --- you're trying to wear me down with all this formatting. And nuances and footwork about honor killings and honor acid attacks. The latter of which I don't even understand the relevance or your confident assertion that it occurs in places other than Muslim nations. But in Muslim Arab nations, they don't NEED acid. They arrest people for these offenses and stone them or jail them or kill them by the power of the state.

And I've yet to see evidence for acid as a weapon of choice for an honor killing anyway. Not like hitting your sister with a piece of lumber or drugging her and smothering her.

So I'm starting fresh.

Ok...so you are trying really really hard to claim it's NOT honor killing when it's done in India but it IS honor killing in Islamic countries??? Come on flacaltenn - in India it's about CASTE and FAMILY HONOR. How many more articles do you need? That particular article, while it highlighted one woman, talked also about honor killing in broader terms, in India. Here are some more:

NONE of these articles give ANY statistics on Honor Killings. I can't remember HOW you went off on Honor "acid attacks", but those are not killings. And I saw almost NO examples of FAMILIES (a prerequisite for an "honor anything" using acid as a weapon. These last 2 articles are mum on numbers. The NY Times article is confined to one RURAL area where traditions are ancient. And the article said SOMETIMES they result in NON-family members taking out violence. These are not NATIONAL problems. It is ILLEGAL in India. Honor killings and punishments in ARAB Muslim states are largely RECOGNIZED and SANCTIONED by the freakin' govt.

Someone, at some point - brought up acid attacks and honor killings SEPERATELY. I addressed them as SEPERATE things INDICATIVE of CULTURAL problems, the same cultural problems I did NOT I didn't start THAT conversation nor did I ever say honor killing was done by acid. Wasn't it YOU who brought up acid attacks and honor killing?

Ok. Let's look at honor killings and statistics then because you sure are working hard to excuse it in non-Muslim cultures.

Statistics & Data

• 5000 honour killings internationally per year.
• 1000 honour killings occur in India
• 1000 honour killings occur in Pakistan
• 12 honour killings per year in UK

Honour Killings By Region

India and Pakistan both have recorded rates of ‘honour’ killings of around 1000 per year, although as ever figures remain unreliable. The levels of such crimes are less known in Bangladesh, but there have been cases in diasporic Bangladeshi communities so there is a potential risk there.


In both India and Pakistan, the informal court systems present problems to women. Where the central criminal justice system is weak or unaffordable to people living in rural communities, tribal jirga or caste panchayat may order HBV in cases of intra-familial disputes. Such informal legal systems may demand the deaths of women, or in some cases compensation marriages where young girls and women are forced to marry to restore equilibrium in family disputes. It was one such jirga that ordered the notorious gang-rape of Mukhtaran Mai.


Particular issues in Hindu communities are caste and gotra (patriline). Marriage opportunitess are very restricted and there may be particularly fierce opposition to any contact between a woman and a male of lower caste; it is often the case that it is the man who is the primary victim of violence by the family of the woman he has approached. While it may be required that any partnerships do not lose caste, marriages within a gotra are condemned as incestuous, despite their rarely being any close consanguinueity between any members of the same gotra. Panchayats have actively policed gotra restrictions and called for the deaths of couples who have contravened such norms.


While in both India and Pakistan there have been a great deal of discussion around ‘honour’ killings, India has taken more assertive legal action, including awarding the death penalty to large numbers of persons who have colluded in murder. In Pakistan, there is more of a culture of impunity and while police reports may be filed, there is often little follow-up, particularly in rural areas.


In Afghanistan, ‘honour’ crimes remain very high along with many other forms of violence against women, and are increasing as attitudes fail to keep pace with economic and social changes. Economic immiseration has also led to high levels of early marriage. Finding safety is difficult as women fleeing their husbands or families may be imprisoned and returned to them and there is, again, a culture of impunity even more profound than that which exists in Pakistan.​

Honour killings: India's crying shame

According to statistics from the United Nations, one in five cases of honour killing internationally every year comes from India. Of the 5000 cases reported internationally, 1000 are from India. Non-governmental organisations put the number at four times this figure. They claim it is around 20,000 cases globally every year.

....Some gruesome cases that have been reported in the media in recent times from different regions in the country include that of 23 year old Dharmender Barak and 18 year old Nidhi Barak, who paid a heavy price for defying their families and falling in love.


The couple, from a village in Rohtak district in Harayana, were tortured, mutilated and killed by the girl’s father and their relatives when they tried to run away and marry. A friend whom the couple had confided in, leaked their plans to the girl’s parents, who lured them back with assurances, only to allegedly kill them in the most cruel manner. The police is treating the ‘double murder’ as a ‘honour crime’.


In September 2013, the Haryana police arrested a police sub-inspector in connection with the killing of a 19 year old girl from Panipat. Meenakshi had eloped with her lover and the cop had tracked her down and handed her over to her family, who then allegedly murdered her.

​

Is this what you call families "threatening to disown children"? Is that all it is? This is NOT a malignant culture - SERIOUSLY?????

Families all over the world threaten to disown children over marriage choices. And BTW in India -- even if a child's choice is WITHIN a Caste it can still be vetoed by their parents. This is not malignant culture. My grandmother said if I married a Goyim it would kill her. About 2600 times. I married a nice Jewish girl and when we visited she pointed to a pic of an earlier girlfriend on her desk and told my wife how lovely she was in that photo. It's all drama.

Wow. Honor killing in India is "all drama".

Acid is cheaper than milk in all those countries, yet you are still trying to claim that throwing acid on women in Muslim countries has a different MOTIVATION than throwing acid on women in Hindu countries?

Honor killings to me are murder - there is no difference. It's murder, but flac - you brought in honor killings as symptomatic of a sick MUSLIM culture, seperate from "murder"....so.,....is it murder or something else? And if it is something else what makes a sick mysoginest MUSLIM culture any different than a sick mysogonist Hindu culture or a sick mysogonist Christian South American culture - all of which are very paternalistic and chauvanistic and treat women like crap?

Honor killings are illegal in most countries - as murder - but they are seldom prosecuted.

You failed to provide any evidence of WIDE SPREAD "honor acid attacks" in India that were due to being Hindu. Or even done by FAMILIES for their honor. Most all of those anecdotes were about perverts and jilted lovers taking revenge.

And you aren't going to get any evidence of "wide spread honor acid attacks" because I wasn't claiming the acid attacks were honor attacks, but that they and honor killings are symptomatic of a sick culture. Where it's being combatted, and where women's rights are being recongized is in urban educated populations of these countries - get out of the city, and it's the same sick culture you complain about in Muslim countries (which also exhibit differences between educated urban vs uneducated rural/village populations).

I brought up that Media star twerker in Pakistan and the other cases as an example of how much easier it is to GET AWAY with honor killings in Pakistan and Arab countries than it is ANY of the places that you dug up to blow smoke on the situation.. From articles just about the Quandeel murder I LEARNED and you apparently didn't ----

Brother of murdered Pakistani Kim Kardashian boasts of pride at death

Pakistani law allows families to 'forgive' their loved ones meaning they do not face charges for honour killings, but the government has stepped in to ban this from happening to Muhammad Waseem, according to Yahoo News.

Brother of Pakistan's Qandeel Baloch: I'm 'proud' of killing sister - CNN.com

On the list of 145 countries featured in the World Economic Forum's 2015 Gender Gap Report, Pakistan is second to last with regards to gender disparity.
According to the Independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, violence against women is rampant, with as many as 212 women being killed in the name of 'honor' in the first five months of 2016.
Pakistan's Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, has vowed to tackle the problem but critics say few concrete steps have been taken.

Forget the smoke about south africa and India and the other deflections. Do you understand the significance of the facts above? Can you MATCH THOSE? Don't think you can..

Above, I posted to a link that stated how local law enforcement and governments are complicit in honor killings in India as well as statistics on how many are thought to occur. 1000 a year in India. Does that match your claim? Are you still going to insist that it is "smoke" and "deflection"?

And those are different issues than honor killing and disfiguring women with acid.

I think mashing folks on a France boardwalk with a massive truck, while gunning them down out the window is more of an issue affecting WESTERN societies right now -- than honor killings or acid attacks.

I never said differently.

Excuse me for being focused. I'm wondering how you dismiss the weekly carnage from the radical Islamic Terror news.

I don't.

Because there seems to be a lot of dancing and NOT A LOT of remorse or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT about Brussels, or Kenya or San Bernadino, or Istanbul or Nice or Orlando or the dozen other HIDEOUS attacks just THIS YEAR. All inspired by warped culture in Arab Muslim hell holes.

I've condemnend them and ACKNOWLEDGED THEM. What - are you waiting for me to jump on the "War on Islam" bandwagon? Is that what you want because that sure is what everyone else seems to be doing.

How da fuck do you do that? Post after post. Thread after thread?

How is it that people are ONLY concerned about women's rights, violence towards women and SICK MYSOGONISTIC CULTURES when it's perpetrated by Muslims?????

NOT A SINGLE FUCKING THREAD about what happens to women routinely in India or the Congo or Columbia which right on our doorstep but THREAD AFTER THREAD and POST AFTER POST about what Muslims do to women. No one CARES if it isn't Muslims. Do you ever wonder about that?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was sure the thread title was about Islam.
What other cultures do or not is the subject of another thread.
"But Mommy! Those bad people who aren't muslim do bad stuff too right? So that means we don't have to address what's going on within Islam right?"
Go fuck yourself!
You STILL haven't answered my question. Does Islam seperate 'Church from State'?
No one is buying your bullshit equivocation: "Well some muslims interpret the teachings of 'Alla-Wishes' differently than others".
BULLSHIT!
Islam is an 'all-in' fucking death cult.
Go to Dearborn and stand on a corner holding a sign saying: "This muslim doesn't believe in killing anyone who leaves the Islamic faith".
Where would you like your personal belonging sent?
YA FUCKING RIGHT.
At least we know who the first LIB coward pussy victim will be when the Caliphate takes over the US.
If you happen to be gay I advise you to stay away from tall buildings.

 

[Tilly]

Gawd Coyote --- you're trying to wear me down with all this formatting. And nuances and footwork about honor killings and honor acid attacks. The latter of which I don't even understand the relevance or your confident assertion that it occurs in places other than Muslim nations. But in Muslim Arab nations, they don't NEED acid. They arrest people for these offenses and stone them or jail them or kill them by the power of the state.

And I've yet to see evidence for acid as a weapon of choice for an honor killing anyway. Not like hitting your sister with a piece of lumber or drugging her and smothering her.

So I'm starting fresh.

Ok...so you are trying really really hard to claim it's NOT honor killing when it's done in India but it IS honor killing in Islamic countries??? Come on flacaltenn - in India it's about CASTE and FAMILY HONOR. How many more articles do you need? That particular article, while it highlighted one woman, talked also about honor killing in broader terms, in India. Here are some more:

NONE of these articles give ANY statistics on Honor Killings. I can't remember HOW you went off on Honor "acid attacks", but those are not killings. And I saw almost NO examples of FAMILIES (a prerequisite for an "honor anything" using acid as a weapon. These last 2 articles are mum on numbers. The NY Times article is confined to one RURAL area where traditions are ancient. And the article said SOMETIMES they result in NON-family members taking out violence. These are not NATIONAL problems. It is ILLEGAL in India. Honor killings and punishments in ARAB Muslim states are largely RECOGNIZED and SANCTIONED by the freakin' govt.

Someone, at some point - brought up acid attacks and honor killings SEPERATELY. I addressed them as SEPERATE things INDICATIVE of CULTURAL problems, the same cultural problems I did NOT I didn't start THAT conversation nor did I ever say honor killing was done by acid. Wasn't it YOU who brought up acid attacks and honor killing?

Ok. Let's look at honor killings and statistics then because you sure are working hard to excuse it in non-Muslim cultures.

Statistics & Data

• 5000 honour killings internationally per year.
• 1000 honour killings occur in India
• 1000 honour killings occur in Pakistan
• 12 honour killings per year in UK

Honour Killings By Region

India and Pakistan both have recorded rates of ‘honour’ killings of around 1000 per year, although as ever figures remain unreliable. The levels of such crimes are less known in Bangladesh, but there have been cases in diasporic Bangladeshi communities so there is a potential risk there.


In both India and Pakistan, the informal court systems present problems to women. Where the central criminal justice system is weak or unaffordable to people living in rural communities, tribal jirga or caste panchayat may order HBV in cases of intra-familial disputes. Such informal legal systems may demand the deaths of women, or in some cases compensation marriages where young girls and women are forced to marry to restore equilibrium in family disputes. It was one such jirga that ordered the notorious gang-rape of Mukhtaran Mai.


Particular issues in Hindu communities are caste and gotra (patriline). Marriage opportunitess are very restricted and there may be particularly fierce opposition to any contact between a woman and a male of lower caste; it is often the case that it is the man who is the primary victim of violence by the family of the woman he has approached. While it may be required that any partnerships do not lose caste, marriages within a gotra are condemned as incestuous, despite their rarely being any close consanguinueity between any members of the same gotra. Panchayats have actively policed gotra restrictions and called for the deaths of couples who have contravened such norms.


While in both India and Pakistan there have been a great deal of discussion around ‘honour’ killings, India has taken more assertive legal action, including awarding the death penalty to large numbers of persons who have colluded in murder. In Pakistan, there is more of a culture of impunity and while police reports may be filed, there is often little follow-up, particularly in rural areas.


In Afghanistan, ‘honour’ crimes remain very high along with many other forms of violence against women, and are increasing as attitudes fail to keep pace with economic and social changes. Economic immiseration has also led to high levels of early marriage. Finding safety is difficult as women fleeing their husbands or families may be imprisoned and returned to them and there is, again, a culture of impunity even more profound than that which exists in Pakistan.​

Honour killings: India's crying shame

According to statistics from the United Nations, one in five cases of honour killing internationally every year comes from India. Of the 5000 cases reported internationally, 1000 are from India. Non-governmental organisations put the number at four times this figure. They claim it is around 20,000 cases globally every year.

....Some gruesome cases that have been reported in the media in recent times from different regions in the country include that of 23 year old Dharmender Barak and 18 year old Nidhi Barak, who paid a heavy price for defying their families and falling in love.


The couple, from a village in Rohtak district in Harayana, were tortured, mutilated and killed by the girl’s father and their relatives when they tried to run away and marry. A friend whom the couple had confided in, leaked their plans to the girl’s parents, who lured them back with assurances, only to allegedly kill them in the most cruel manner. The police is treating the ‘double murder’ as a ‘honour crime’.


In September 2013, the Haryana police arrested a police sub-inspector in connection with the killing of a 19 year old girl from Panipat. Meenakshi had eloped with her lover and the cop had tracked her down and handed her over to her family, who then allegedly murdered her.

​

Is this what you call families "threatening to disown children"? Is that all it is? This is NOT a malignant culture - SERIOUSLY?????

Families all over the world threaten to disown children over marriage choices. And BTW in India -- even if a child's choice is WITHIN a Caste it can still be vetoed by their parents. This is not malignant culture. My grandmother said if I married a Goyim it would kill her. About 2600 times. I married a nice Jewish girl and when we visited she pointed to a pic of an earlier girlfriend on her desk and told my wife how lovely she was in that photo. It's all drama.

Wow. Honor killing in India is "all drama".

Acid is cheaper than milk in all those countries, yet you are still trying to claim that throwing acid on women in Muslim countries has a different MOTIVATION than throwing acid on women in Hindu countries?

Honor killings to me are murder - there is no difference. It's murder, but flac - you brought in honor killings as symptomatic of a sick MUSLIM culture, seperate from "murder"....so.,....is it murder or something else? And if it is something else what makes a sick mysoginest MUSLIM culture any different than a sick mysogonist Hindu culture or a sick mysogonist Christian South American culture - all of which are very paternalistic and chauvanistic and treat women like crap?

Honor killings are illegal in most countries - as murder - but they are seldom prosecuted.

You failed to provide any evidence of WIDE SPREAD "honor acid attacks" in India that were due to being Hindu. Or even done by FAMILIES for their honor. Most all of those anecdotes were about perverts and jilted lovers taking revenge.

And you aren't going to get any evidence of "wide spread honor acid attacks" because I wasn't claiming the acid attacks were honor attacks, but that they and honor killings are symptomatic of a sick culture. Where it's being combatted, and where women's rights are being recongized is in urban educated populations of these countries - get out of the city, and it's the same sick culture you complain about in Muslim countries (which also exhibit differences between educated urban vs uneducated rural/village populations).

I brought up that Media star twerker in Pakistan and the other cases as an example of how much easier it is to GET AWAY with honor killings in Pakistan and Arab countries than it is ANY of the places that you dug up to blow smoke on the situation.. From articles just about the Quandeel murder I LEARNED and you apparently didn't ----

Brother of murdered Pakistani Kim Kardashian boasts of pride at death

Pakistani law allows families to 'forgive' their loved ones meaning they do not face charges for honour killings, but the government has stepped in to ban this from happening to Muhammad Waseem, according to Yahoo News.

Brother of Pakistan's Qandeel Baloch: I'm 'proud' of killing sister - CNN.com

On the list of 145 countries featured in the World Economic Forum's 2015 Gender Gap Report, Pakistan is second to last with regards to gender disparity.
According to the Independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, violence against women is rampant, with as many as 212 women being killed in the name of 'honor' in the first five months of 2016.
Pakistan's Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, has vowed to tackle the problem but critics say few concrete steps have been taken.

Forget the smoke about south africa and India and the other deflections. Do you understand the significance of the facts above? Can you MATCH THOSE? Don't think you can..

Above, I posted to a link that stated how local law enforcement and governments are complicit in honor killings in India as well as statistics on how many are thought to occur. 1000 a year in India. Does that match your claim? Are you still going to insist that it is "smoke" and "deflection"?

And those are different issues than honor killing and disfiguring women with acid.

I think mashing folks on a France boardwalk with a massive truck, while gunning them down out the window is more of an issue affecting WESTERN societies right now -- than honor killings or acid attacks.

I never said differently.

Excuse me for being focused. I'm wondering how you dismiss the weekly carnage from the radical Islamic Terror news.

I don't.

Because there seems to be a lot of dancing and NOT A LOT of remorse or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT about Brussels, or Kenya or San Bernadino, or Istanbul or Nice or Orlando or the dozen other HIDEOUS attacks just THIS YEAR. All inspired by warped culture in Arab Muslim hell holes.

I've condemnend them and ACKNOWLEDGED THEM. What - are you waiting for me to jump on the "War on Islam" bandwagon? Is that what you want because that sure is what everyone else seems to be doing.

How da fuck do you do that? Post after post. Thread after thread?

How is it that people are ONLY concerned about women's rights, violence towards women and SICK MYSOGONISTIC CULTURES when it's perpetrated by Muslims?????

NOT A SINGLE FUCKING THREAD about what happens to women routinely in India or the Congo or Columbia which right on our doorstep but THREAD AFTER THREAD and POST AFTER POST about what Muslims do to women. No one CARES if it isn't Muslims. Do you ever wonder about that?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was sure the thread title was about Islam.
What other cultures do or not is the subject of another thread.
"But Mommy! Those bad people who aren't muslim do bad stuff too right? So that means we don't have to address what's going on within Islam right?"
Go fuck yourself!
You STILL haven't answered my question. Does Islam seperate 'Church from State'?
No one is buying your bullshit equivocation: "Well some muslims interpret the teachings of 'Alla-Wishes' differently than others".
BULLSHIT!
Islam is an 'all-in' fucking death cult.
Go to Dearborn and stand on a corner holding a sign saying: "This muslim doesn't believe in killing anyone who leaves the Islamic faith".
Where would you like your personal belonging sent?
YA FUCKING RIGHT.
At least we know who the first LIB coward pussy victim will be when the Caliphate takes over the US.
If you happen to be gay I advise you to stay away from tall buildings.

And she is now busy making excuses for an Islamist supporter on the following linked thread about a Muslim who attempted to kill an 8 yr old girl, her siblings and her mother

France - Mother and Daughters Stabbed

 

[Damaged Eagle]

What is a "fair share" of moneys and what is the criteria? Minority status alone?

Shouldn't it be? Isn't that fair?

Is it? You meet needs, not wants.

Prove the need.

You are suggesting that we add a far more intrusive layer of government that will determine how many people comprise a "minority group" and then allocate all moneys - that come from a variety of sources I imagine - to these groups, not based on need but on numbers. That's one issue.

Why is that an issue? Isn't everybody equal?

How do you measure equality?

The Declaration Of Independence says we're all created equal... Isn't that good 'nough for ya?

*****CHUCKLE*****

The second issue is one of the same issues that comes up with the slave reparation idea that some have floated. Who counts? Who counts as a "German American"? Half German? A quarter? Less than that? I have a some German ancestry...does that entitle me? Unfortunately...unlike blacks, there was never a "one drop of blood" rule that labeled someone black (for the purposes of segregation).

I suspect they'll have to choose what who they wish to identify with.

Ah...self identification. Any one can claim to be anything and get free government money.

But they can only do it once... So if you want to claim you're a little green Martian have at it.

Third, as a taxpayer, I don't want my money going to people who are doing perfectly fine. "Need" is an important component. For example, scholarships to promote education in traditionally undereducated minorities. Ironically - Appalachian people fall into a minority category - the hillbilly minority (and I live in WV) - we have a scholarship called the Promise Scholarship to encourage higher education among a population that traditionally has never gone to college. It's worked well. It's state moneys though. Those are the kind of minority initiatives I would support because they add value and give back. As opposed to just distributing money.

You have proof that some specific minority group is doing better than another. Until then...
Every minority group has it's underclass.

Economic disparities are easy to track.

No they aren't. Plenty of black market enterprises exist that make all those economic disparity results worthless... Then there's the resident statistic experts that the government hires who are paid to ignore certain figures by not including them in their results.

So...that leaves one more question...what exactly are you after here? Do you think this is money ill spent?

If the majority of the money is spent on anything other than scholarships, educational assistance, and/or caring, for the less fortunate... I'm going to say yes. However if we institute this the changes I suggest I'll admit that I really don't care how the group spends the money. They can spend it attempting to educate and care for the less fortunate of their minority group or they can spend it all going out and protesting everything under the sun...But when the allotted money for that minority group is gone for the year that's it.

I wouldn't agree. Each group has to make a good case for need. I was listening to something on student debt and assistance - and the host was interviewing families. One family was struggling with sending a child to a state college the other was struggling to send a child to a select private college. One is need, the other is want.
Out of curiosity- what federal money is given specifically to minorities?

Don't attempt to be coy...

If it's federal money and slotted to go to any minority groups it counts whether it's for scholarships, housing, food, running a non-profit for a specific group, etc,... Plenty of this going around GOOGLE it.

Personally I'm more than willing to cut government spending at the federal level to where it does at it says in the Constitution, which is defense, and let the states handle all other funding.

Should it be equally distributed regardless of need?

Is it now?

You'd have to give some specific examples - this is way too general to answer.

You are the one suggesting one group is more needy than another... Prove it.

I'm a white female of Welsh, Norwegian, Danish, English, German ancestry - plus a few other flavors I suspect. I don't need any of this. But others do.

I guess you'll have to choose what you want to identify as.

?????



*****SMILE*****





PS: If you can't/won't fix your posts so they are easy to read then don't expect me to reply.

 

[Coyote]

What is a "fair share" of moneys and what is the criteria? Minority status alone?

Shouldn't it be? Isn't that fair?

Is it? You meet needs, not wants.

Prove the need.

You are suggesting that we add a far more intrusive layer of government that will determine how many people comprise a "minority group" and then allocate all moneys - that come from a variety of sources I imagine - to these groups, not based on need but on numbers. That's one issue.

Why is that an issue? Isn't everybody equal?

How do you measure equality?

The Declaration Of Independence says we're all created equal... Isn't that good 'nough for ya?

*****CHUCKLE*****

The second issue is one of the same issues that comes up with the slave reparation idea that some have floated. Who counts? Who counts as a "German American"? Half German? A quarter? Less than that? I have a some German ancestry...does that entitle me? Unfortunately...unlike blacks, there was never a "one drop of blood" rule that labeled someone black (for the purposes of segregation).

I suspect they'll have to choose what who they wish to identify with.

Ah...self identification. Any one can claim to be anything and get free government money.

But they can only do it once... So if you want to claim you're a little green Martian have at it.

Third, as a taxpayer, I don't want my money going to people who are doing perfectly fine. "Need" is an important component. For example, scholarships to promote education in traditionally undereducated minorities. Ironically - Appalachian people fall into a minority category - the hillbilly minority (and I live in WV) - we have a scholarship called the Promise Scholarship to encourage higher education among a population that traditionally has never gone to college. It's worked well. It's state moneys though. Those are the kind of minority initiatives I would support because they add value and give back. As opposed to just distributing money.

You have proof that some specific minority group is doing better than another. Until then...
Every minority group has it's underclass.

Economic disparities are easy to track.

No they aren't. Plenty of black market enterprises exist that make all those economic disparity results worthless... Then there's the resident statistic experts that the government hires who are paid to ignore certain figures by not including them in their results.

So...that leaves one more question...what exactly are you after here? Do you think this is money ill spent?

If the majority of the money is spent on anything other than scholarships, educational assistance, and/or caring, for the less fortunate... I'm going to say yes. However if we institute this the changes I suggest I'll admit that I really don't care how the group spends the money. They can spend it attempting to educate and care for the less fortunate of their minority group or they can spend it all going out and protesting everything under the sun...But when the allotted money for that minority group is gone for the year that's it.

I wouldn't agree. Each group has to make a good case for need. I was listening to something on student debt and assistance - and the host was interviewing families. One family was struggling with sending a child to a state college the other was struggling to send a child to a select private college. One is need, the other is want.
Out of curiosity- what federal money is given specifically to minorities?

Don't attempt to be coy...

If it's federal money and slotted to go to any minority groups it counts whether it's for scholarships, housing, food, running a non-profit for a specific group, etc,... Plenty of this going around GOOGLE it.

Personally I'm more than willing to cut government spending at the federal level to where it does at it says in the Constitution, which is defense, and let the states handle all other funding.

Should it be equally distributed regardless of need?

Is it now?

You'd have to give some specific examples - this is way too general to answer.

You are the one suggesting one group is more needy than another... Prove it.

I'm a white female of Welsh, Norwegian, Danish, English, German ancestry - plus a few other flavors I suspect. I don't need any of this. But others do.

I guess you'll have to choose what you want to identify as.

?????



*****SMILE*****





PS: If you can't/won't fix your posts so they are easy to read then don't expect me to reply.

You're own posts are not exactly easy to read, so stuff it. You speak in broad generalities and then ask for specifics. Let's backtrack a bit.

What money is specifically slotted to minorities?

 

[Coyote]

Gawd Coyote --- you're trying to wear me down with all this formatting. And nuances and footwork about honor killings and honor acid attacks. The latter of which I don't even understand the relevance or your confident assertion that it occurs in places other than Muslim nations. But in Muslim Arab nations, they don't NEED acid. They arrest people for these offenses and stone them or jail them or kill them by the power of the state.

And I've yet to see evidence for acid as a weapon of choice for an honor killing anyway. Not like hitting your sister with a piece of lumber or drugging her and smothering her.

So I'm starting fresh.

Ok...so you are trying really really hard to claim it's NOT honor killing when it's done in India but it IS honor killing in Islamic countries??? Come on flacaltenn - in India it's about CASTE and FAMILY HONOR. How many more articles do you need? That particular article, while it highlighted one woman, talked also about honor killing in broader terms, in India. Here are some more:

NONE of these articles give ANY statistics on Honor Killings. I can't remember HOW you went off on Honor "acid attacks", but those are not killings. And I saw almost NO examples of FAMILIES (a prerequisite for an "honor anything" using acid as a weapon. These last 2 articles are mum on numbers. The NY Times article is confined to one RURAL area where traditions are ancient. And the article said SOMETIMES they result in NON-family members taking out violence. These are not NATIONAL problems. It is ILLEGAL in India. Honor killings and punishments in ARAB Muslim states are largely RECOGNIZED and SANCTIONED by the freakin' govt.

Someone, at some point - brought up acid attacks and honor killings SEPERATELY. I addressed them as SEPERATE things INDICATIVE of CULTURAL problems, the same cultural problems I did NOT I didn't start THAT conversation nor did I ever say honor killing was done by acid. Wasn't it YOU who brought up acid attacks and honor killing?

Ok. Let's look at honor killings and statistics then because you sure are working hard to excuse it in non-Muslim cultures.

Statistics & Data

• 5000 honour killings internationally per year.
• 1000 honour killings occur in India
• 1000 honour killings occur in Pakistan
• 12 honour killings per year in UK

Honour Killings By Region

India and Pakistan both have recorded rates of ‘honour’ killings of around 1000 per year, although as ever figures remain unreliable. The levels of such crimes are less known in Bangladesh, but there have been cases in diasporic Bangladeshi communities so there is a potential risk there.


In both India and Pakistan, the informal court systems present problems to women. Where the central criminal justice system is weak or unaffordable to people living in rural communities, tribal jirga or caste panchayat may order HBV in cases of intra-familial disputes. Such informal legal systems may demand the deaths of women, or in some cases compensation marriages where young girls and women are forced to marry to restore equilibrium in family disputes. It was one such jirga that ordered the notorious gang-rape of Mukhtaran Mai.


Particular issues in Hindu communities are caste and gotra (patriline). Marriage opportunitess are very restricted and there may be particularly fierce opposition to any contact between a woman and a male of lower caste; it is often the case that it is the man who is the primary victim of violence by the family of the woman he has approached. While it may be required that any partnerships do not lose caste, marriages within a gotra are condemned as incestuous, despite their rarely being any close consanguinueity between any members of the same gotra. Panchayats have actively policed gotra restrictions and called for the deaths of couples who have contravened such norms.


While in both India and Pakistan there have been a great deal of discussion around ‘honour’ killings, India has taken more assertive legal action, including awarding the death penalty to large numbers of persons who have colluded in murder. In Pakistan, there is more of a culture of impunity and while police reports may be filed, there is often little follow-up, particularly in rural areas.


In Afghanistan, ‘honour’ crimes remain very high along with many other forms of violence against women, and are increasing as attitudes fail to keep pace with economic and social changes. Economic immiseration has also led to high levels of early marriage. Finding safety is difficult as women fleeing their husbands or families may be imprisoned and returned to them and there is, again, a culture of impunity even more profound than that which exists in Pakistan.​

Honour killings: India's crying shame

According to statistics from the United Nations, one in five cases of honour killing internationally every year comes from India. Of the 5000 cases reported internationally, 1000 are from India. Non-governmental organisations put the number at four times this figure. They claim it is around 20,000 cases globally every year.

....Some gruesome cases that have been reported in the media in recent times from different regions in the country include that of 23 year old Dharmender Barak and 18 year old Nidhi Barak, who paid a heavy price for defying their families and falling in love.


The couple, from a village in Rohtak district in Harayana, were tortured, mutilated and killed by the girl’s father and their relatives when they tried to run away and marry. A friend whom the couple had confided in, leaked their plans to the girl’s parents, who lured them back with assurances, only to allegedly kill them in the most cruel manner. The police is treating the ‘double murder’ as a ‘honour crime’.


In September 2013, the Haryana police arrested a police sub-inspector in connection with the killing of a 19 year old girl from Panipat. Meenakshi had eloped with her lover and the cop had tracked her down and handed her over to her family, who then allegedly murdered her.

​

Is this what you call families "threatening to disown children"? Is that all it is? This is NOT a malignant culture - SERIOUSLY?????

Families all over the world threaten to disown children over marriage choices. And BTW in India -- even if a child's choice is WITHIN a Caste it can still be vetoed by their parents. This is not malignant culture. My grandmother said if I married a Goyim it would kill her. About 2600 times. I married a nice Jewish girl and when we visited she pointed to a pic of an earlier girlfriend on her desk and told my wife how lovely she was in that photo. It's all drama.

Wow. Honor killing in India is "all drama".

Acid is cheaper than milk in all those countries, yet you are still trying to claim that throwing acid on women in Muslim countries has a different MOTIVATION than throwing acid on women in Hindu countries?

Honor killings to me are murder - there is no difference. It's murder, but flac - you brought in honor killings as symptomatic of a sick MUSLIM culture, seperate from "murder"....so.,....is it murder or something else? And if it is something else what makes a sick mysoginest MUSLIM culture any different than a sick mysogonist Hindu culture or a sick mysogonist Christian South American culture - all of which are very paternalistic and chauvanistic and treat women like crap?

Honor killings are illegal in most countries - as murder - but they are seldom prosecuted.

You failed to provide any evidence of WIDE SPREAD "honor acid attacks" in India that were due to being Hindu. Or even done by FAMILIES for their honor. Most all of those anecdotes were about perverts and jilted lovers taking revenge.

And you aren't going to get any evidence of "wide spread honor acid attacks" because I wasn't claiming the acid attacks were honor attacks, but that they and honor killings are symptomatic of a sick culture. Where it's being combatted, and where women's rights are being recongized is in urban educated populations of these countries - get out of the city, and it's the same sick culture you complain about in Muslim countries (which also exhibit differences between educated urban vs uneducated rural/village populations).

I brought up that Media star twerker in Pakistan and the other cases as an example of how much easier it is to GET AWAY with honor killings in Pakistan and Arab countries than it is ANY of the places that you dug up to blow smoke on the situation.. From articles just about the Quandeel murder I LEARNED and you apparently didn't ----

Brother of murdered Pakistani Kim Kardashian boasts of pride at death

Pakistani law allows families to 'forgive' their loved ones meaning they do not face charges for honour killings, but the government has stepped in to ban this from happening to Muhammad Waseem, according to Yahoo News.

Brother of Pakistan's Qandeel Baloch: I'm 'proud' of killing sister - CNN.com

On the list of 145 countries featured in the World Economic Forum's 2015 Gender Gap Report, Pakistan is second to last with regards to gender disparity.
According to the Independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, violence against women is rampant, with as many as 212 women being killed in the name of 'honor' in the first five months of 2016.
Pakistan's Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, has vowed to tackle the problem but critics say few concrete steps have been taken.

Forget the smoke about south africa and India and the other deflections. Do you understand the significance of the facts above? Can you MATCH THOSE? Don't think you can..

Above, I posted to a link that stated how local law enforcement and governments are complicit in honor killings in India as well as statistics on how many are thought to occur. 1000 a year in India. Does that match your claim? Are you still going to insist that it is "smoke" and "deflection"?

And those are different issues than honor killing and disfiguring women with acid.

I think mashing folks on a France boardwalk with a massive truck, while gunning them down out the window is more of an issue affecting WESTERN societies right now -- than honor killings or acid attacks.

I never said differently.

Excuse me for being focused. I'm wondering how you dismiss the weekly carnage from the radical Islamic Terror news.

I don't.

Because there seems to be a lot of dancing and NOT A LOT of remorse or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT about Brussels, or Kenya or San Bernadino, or Istanbul or Nice or Orlando or the dozen other HIDEOUS attacks just THIS YEAR. All inspired by warped culture in Arab Muslim hell holes.

I've condemnend them and ACKNOWLEDGED THEM. What - are you waiting for me to jump on the "War on Islam" bandwagon? Is that what you want because that sure is what everyone else seems to be doing.

How da fuck do you do that? Post after post. Thread after thread?

How is it that people are ONLY concerned about women's rights, violence towards women and SICK MYSOGONISTIC CULTURES when it's perpetrated by Muslims?????

NOT A SINGLE FUCKING THREAD about what happens to women routinely in India or the Congo or Columbia which right on our doorstep but THREAD AFTER THREAD and POST AFTER POST about what Muslims do to women. No one CARES if it isn't Muslims. Do you ever wonder about that?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was sure the thread title was about Islam.
What other cultures do or not is the subject of another thread.
"But Mommy! Those bad people who aren't muslim do bad stuff too right? So that means we don't have to address what's going on within Islam right?"
Go fuck yourself!
You STILL haven't answered my question. Does Islam seperate 'Church from State'?
No one is buying your bullshit equivocation: "Well some muslims interpret the teachings of 'Alla-Wishes' differently than others".
BULLSHIT!
Islam is an 'all-in' fucking death cult.
Go to Dearborn and stand on a corner holding a sign saying: "This muslim doesn't believe in killing anyone who leaves the Islamic faith".
Where would you like your personal belonging sent?
YA FUCKING RIGHT.
At least we know who the first LIB coward pussy victim will be when the Caliphate takes over the US.
If you happen to be gay I advise you to stay away from tall buildings.

Where did you ask that question?

And, are you trying to claim Dearborn instituted Sharia law?

 

[flacaltenn]

Acid is cheaper than milk in all those countries, yet you are still trying to claim that throwing acid on women in Muslim countries has a different MOTIVATION than throwing acid on women in Hindu countries?

Honor killings to me are murder - there is no difference. It's murder, but flac - you brought in honor killings as symptomatic of a sick MUSLIM culture, seperate from "murder"....so.,....is it murder or something else? And if it is something else what makes a sick mysoginest MUSLIM culture any different than a sick mysogonist Hindu culture or a sick mysogonist Christian South American culture - all of which are very paternalistic and chauvanistic and treat women like crap?

Honor killings are illegal in most countries - as murder - but they are seldom prosecuted.

I have no idea what relevance "acid attacks" have on sick cultures other than the AVAILABILITY of the weapon. Not necessarily ANY measure of sickness -- just a measure of violence. YOU brought it up as a diversion to the fact I've given you twice --- That in a secular country like India -- ALL family murders are prosecuted. As opposed to your blanket comment above which is wrong. They may not be prosecuted as "honor" killings, but they ARE prosecuted. And I pointed out quite clearly -- THREE times now -- that in Pakistan -- they are not even prosecuted as MURDER -- if the family absolves the killer. YET --- you don't see a difference there. In MANY Arab countries these actions are SANCTIONED by the state. And still you don't get it.

And you aren't going to get any evidence of "wide spread honor acid attacks" because I wasn't claiming the acid attacks were honor attacks, but that they and honor killings are symptomatic of a sick culture. Where it's being combatted, and where women's rights are being recongized is in urban educated populations of these countries - get out of the city, and it's the same sick culture you complain about in Muslim countries (which also exhibit differences between educated urban vs uneducated rural/village populations).

Because you rely on some facts and not the LARGER picture -- I think you're missing the important DIFFERENCES that exist for Arab Muslim cultures. And I have NO IDEA why we're talking just about women's issues. The THREAD is about threats to WESTERN societies -- not a globe-trotting human rights contest. BUT --- for instance. In even the MOST ADVANCED Arab Muslim countries, like Saudi, having an EDUCATION for a women is NOTHING without being hired and WORKING in a sex-mixed company.

Saudi Women More Educated Than Men Are Wasted Resource

More women are working than ever before -- a total of 647,000 in 2012, up from 505,000 in 2009, according to the country’s Central Department of Statistics and Information. “The number is minuscule, but it is a significant increase,” says Abdel Aziz Aluwaisheg, an economist and an assistant secretary-general for negotiations and strategic dialogue at the Gulf Cooperation Council. Just 10 percent of Saudi women over the age of 15 are employed, one of the lowest rates in the world.

Since the Arab Spring began two years ago, the king has sped up the changes. He granted women the right to vote and run in the 2015 municipal elections -- the only such contest the kingdom holds -- allowed two women to compete in last year’s London Olympics, a first for Saudi female athletes, and in January appointed the first female members to the Consultative Council, naming 30 women to the 150-member advisory body.

So much for it being an "urban-rural" problem. It's a SYSTEMIC problem in the ENTIRE culture.
And that's not even a problem that affects OUR DECISIONS on immigration or the ability to assimilate into our culture. Which is what is front and center in these discussions.

Above, I posted to a link that stated how local law enforcement and governments are complicit in honor killings in India as well as statistics on how many are thought to occur. 1000 a year in India. Does that match your claim? Are you still going to insist that it is "smoke" and "deflection"?

That statistic is from ONE organization whose GOAL is to expand the definition of Honor killings and get to be a recognized LEGAL charge. Much like our emotion "Hate crime" tack-on. On that site, in their library, are articles ADMITTING that statistics are NOT kept as to determination of honor. And that the Org seeks to include spousal or relative killings for the motives might be -- spending too money, not having dinner on the table, flirting with the postman. There IS NO WAY --- I'm gonna distracted into that foreign "drama"..

I've got my own list of injustices that rile me. The largest of which is that the G8 have NEVER given anything but lip service to ending SLAVERY in our lifetimes. I'm no cultural Imperialist, and I am NOT a global crusader. My PRIMARY concern is that we do not IMPORT these sick cultural practices into OUR country or into our Western Allies. But SLAVERY is a clear bright line and should guide ALL of our International Relations.

SO -- when we finally get back to the topic of the THREAT of importing this cancer -- you devote 2 sentences to acknowledge that you are following the MASSIVE outbreak of FOCUSED inspiration for the shit storm of death and violence that extremist Muslim Terrorism is bringing to the West. Can't seem to keep you on that issue tho.

How is it that people are ONLY concerned about women's rights, violence towards women and SICK MYSOGONISTIC CULTURES when it's perpetrated by Muslims?????

NOT A SINGLE FUCKING THREAD about what happens to women routinely in India or the Congo or Columbia which right on our doorstep but THREAD AFTER THREAD and POST AFTER POST about what Muslims do to women. No one CARES if it isn't Muslims. Do you ever wonder about that?

Because Western countries are not FACING a Hindu inspired threat or a Christian inspired threat of the MAGNITUDE of the spread of crap Arab culture into these lands. They are not just killing women. They are killing other MUSLIMS -- babies, women and all. In IRAQ weekly, In Syria in piles of 100s of thousands of bodies, In Istanbul. On the beach in Tunisia -- 38 dead, and NOW -- because we didn't set up safe zones in the conflict areas -- those killers are coming in hordes to the Western world. Filling up French jails. Knifing a mother and kids at a quiet French resort YESTERDAY -- with the Muslim's wife and kids watching the carnage. Motivation --

Mother and three daughters are STABBED in French holiday resort

A mother and her three daughters were reportedly stabbed while on holiday in France because they were 'scantily dressed'.

A knifeman attacked the woman and her three daughters, aged eight, 12, and 14, in the village of Garde-Colombe near Laragne-Monteglin, in south-east France, at around 10.30 this morning.

The attacker, named locally as Moroccan-born Mohamed Boufarkouch, was later arrested on suspicion of attempted murder and remains in police custody.

Local reports suggest the Boufarkouch attacked the victims because they were 'scantily dressed'. The victims are believed to have been wearing shorts and t-shirts at the time.

Jean-Marc Duprat, a deputy mayor for the nearby town, said the attacker was upset because the victims were wearing shorts and t-shirts.

French TV channel TF1 said he 'may have acted out of religious motives'.

A small folding knife with a blade measuring from 8 to 10 centimeters was found at the scene.

Boufarkouch, who is now in custody, has been known to police for at least 15 years. He reportedly fled after the attack, leaving behind his family and his wife 'in tears'.

This is NOT a new kind of issue that we should just learn "to cope with". And we NEED to not make ALL of the mistakes that our Euro buds have made. So you need to understand WHY people start threads like this. And until you DO --- you are not gonna be able to talk them down from OVER-reacting.

It's DAILY outrages of senseless violence and mayhem. It CAN NOT be ignored. There is no "fairness violation" here. It's out of proportion to all sense of decency and justice.

 

[Coyote]

flacaltenn

I’m going to try to start fresh because the conversation did really go off in all sorts of directions as well as off the rails (even to whether minorities should get government funds!). I’m going to try and look at this logically and make my points and put down how I see the conversation.


First – the OP: Time to Declare War on Islam

Not terrorists, not even religious extremists but Islam. The entire religion, every man, woman and child, from the most liberal to the most extreme. So that is are starting point – a blanket assertion that brooks no contradictions and takes no hostages. The OP overshadows the entire conversation.


Second…how did it get into the conversation? I thought someone else had brought it up, but you are right – I did. But not intended as a diversion because it goes hand in hand with such things as honor killing (and the post I brought it up in, #421 was in response to you bringing up honor killings as examples of abusing women which followed from talking about misogynistic cultures. You asked how we got on to “women’s issues” and I think that was a natural segueing of the conversation – cultures, human rights, violence – that the OP inspired. Human rights – specifically that of women, homosexual and ethnic or religious minorities are frequently brought up as a barometer of a culture’s evolution. The biggest criticisms of Islam, as a religion and of many Muslim-majority cultures involve those, especially women’s rights.


So why do acid attacks matter and what relevance do they have on “sick cultures”? I disagree with you on the assertion that the only relevance is “availability of the weapon”. Acid attacks are not just any weapon. They destroy a woman – her life, her looks, her future prospects, any potential for a marriage in those cultures. They are not only horribly disfiguring, they are debilitating and leave her forever ruined. They don’t just destroy her face, they destroy her future and make her worthless in her community and may often leave her wishing for death. And acid is used precisely because of it’s horrific damage. A knife attack doesn’t do that. Beating her up doesn’t do that. Shooting her doesn’t do that. So what kind of sick culture does that to a woman? Where a man goes out and gets acid specifically for that purpose? It is very much a measure of the sickness of the culture.


Third…honor killings. Laws are only as good as the will and means to enforce them. You made a blanket statement that in India that all family murders are prosecuted but that isn’t actually true. I linked to an article that indicates in rural villages, these crimes are handled by the village councils, who are just as likely to judge that the victim as deserving of being killed if they feel she acted dishonerably and they are not charged with murder.


You dismissed my one source, so I’ll offer some others (and if you dismiss these, then please tell me what sort of source you’ll find acceptable).


India: Prosecute Rampant ‘Honor’ Killings

This is a 2010 article, so things could have changed in 6 years. However, it notes the same things as my other source did – namely, accurate statistics on honor killing are difficult to come due to differing definitions of what is honor killing and a tendancy to hide honor killing as something else such as suicide. I’m sure that applies to countries other than India as well.


From the article:

There are no official figures on "honor" killings because they often go unreported or are passed off as suicide or natural deaths by the family members involved. However, a recent independent study found that at least 900 such murders occur every year in Haryana, Punjab, and Uttar Pradesh states alone. There are no estimates of other injuries, unlawful confinement, or forced marriages suffered by women and girls, or by couples, in the name of "honor."


It notes that at least 900 such murders occur every year. That’s a lot. It’s not much different than what my first source said which is not surprising since I think my first article sourced this one for its claims.​

Here is another source which talks about honor killing and laws in a number of countries: Violence against woman - Issue of Honor killing


This article points out the weakness’ and lack of enforcement in honor killing laws (which are nothing more than recognizing honor killing as murder) including Pakistan, which actually doesn’t make it “ok” by apology but by paying compensation (though, since the culprits are usually the family, that is meaningless). That is still not enough – it should be treated like any other murder. But the problem with any of these laws though is that they are only as good as the will to enforce them.


This article also makes the following statement (one caveate – this is 2002, and things might have changed since then) – but it’s noteworthy the number of countries around the world that allow for an “honor defense” when it comes to murdering women (which implies that it is “sanctioned” by the state using your terminology):

Honor killing in national legal codes

According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the 58th session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (2002) concerning cultural practices in the family that reflect violence against women:
The Special Rapporteur indicated that there had been contradictory decisions with regard to the honor defence in Brazil, and that legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defence in that context could be found in the penal codes of Argentina, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Peru, Syria, Turkey, Venezuela and the Palestinian National Authority.​

From another article, concerning India, the author makes the following point: Debate about honor killings resurfaces in India | Asia | DW.COM | 19.05.2010

The age-old practice of honour killing thrives because it is approved of in many parts of the country. But it also thrives because of the reluctance of the police and courts to intervene and the government to understand the seriousness of this issue.​

If a state is unwilling or disinclined to prosecute honor killings – then what good are laws? Is there a significant difference in regards to honor killing, between the culture of India, where this is occurring and the culture of Pakistan or Arab countries, where it also occurs?

You make a statement that I find really odd. You call Saudi Arabia “the most advanced Arab Muslim country”. Saudi Arabia has never been a country I would call “advanced”. It has one of the most conservative religious societies in the Muslim world. Women are heavily restricted in freedom of movement, ability to act independently, even drive. Changes are occurring, very very slowly. I would not ever call it “advanced”.


You also dismiss what I said about rural vs. urban populations saying it’s systemic throughout the whole culture. Again, I disagree.


First – educational levels. Education, especially for women, is probably the single most important driver of liberal values. In developing countries - educational levels are far higher in urban areas than in rural areas and the effects of that can be seen in voting patterns, political initiatives, human rights. I’ll give two examples.


Forced child marriages in Yemen. The Painful Death of a Yemen Child Bride A huge problem, in Yemen where modern values clash with religious and tribal customs. A story of a child brides death on her wedding night angered Yemeni’s enough that they pushed for new laws against such marriages. The push came from urban areas and was met with heavy resistance from rural villages where tribal customs are strong. Not sure if they succeeded and I suspect even if they did, enforcement would be spotty.


Iranian elections. The last election was the first time more liberal candidates made a strong showing (liberal in relation to the normal run of Cleric-vetted candidates). Most of their support came from urban areas. Rural areas were still pretty staunchly conservative.


When you are talking about cultures, there are differences even within the same culture.

I've got my own list of injustices that rile me. The largest of which is that the G8 have NEVER given anything but lip service to ending SLAVERY in our lifetimes. I'm no cultural Imperialist, and I am NOT a global crusader. My PRIMARY concern is that we do not IMPORT these sick cultural practices into OUR country or into our Western Allies. But SLAVERY is a clear bright line and should guide ALL of our International Relations.


SO -- when we finally get back to the topic of the THREAT of importing this cancer -- you devote 2 sentences to acknowledge that you are following the MASSIVE outbreak of FOCUSED inspiration for the shit storm of death and violence that extremist Muslim Terrorism is bringing to the West. Can't seem to keep you on that issue tho.

Ok. Let’s talk about this threat – what you call a massive outbreak. How much is fear and how much is fear mongering? Fear is justified, especially when the threat is seemingly impossible to predict and leaves a huge swath of destruction. Yet, we, as a nation, must be doing something right. We have many successful and flourishing immigrant communities from the same countries you refer to as having “sick cultures”.


We aren’t Europe. Our history, our culture, our immigrant experience is completely different. Our immigrants assimilate well, are largely successful and employed. Oh I’m sure someone is going to bring up “well what about xxxxx terrorist” but in terms of overall numbers I think we are very successful with immigrants and have a long history to show that. We have Somali’s, Lebonese, Syrians, Iraqi’s, Afghanis, Palestinians, etc etc. We must be doing something right. But now, suddenly, a massive tidal wave of fear is rolling over us and its target is nebulous. We aren’t taking in a huge number of refugees and those refugees are heavily vetted to begin with. Even proposed expansions of that number are still very small.


One recent Large Story was the prosecution of 5 Somali immigrants who tried to travel Syria and join the fighting. The Small Story, that was entirely ignored was that their disapearance was reported to authorities by the Somali immigrant community and their families who were concerned.


Unfortunately, I’m winding down…I spent too much time on the beginning of this and to little time on the end so I’ll try to say more later. But I’ll end with this article you posted as an example:


-------------------

Knifing a mother and kids at a quiet French resort YESTERDAY -- with the Muslim's wife and kids watching the carnage. Motivation --


Mother and three daughters are STABBED in French holiday resort

A mother and her three daughters were reportedly stabbed while on holiday in France because they were 'scantily dressed'.


A knifeman attacked the woman and her three daughters, aged eight, 12, and 14, in the village of Garde-Colombe near Laragne-Monteglin, in south-east France, at around 10.30 this morning.


The attacker, named locally as Moroccan-born Mohamed Boufarkouch, was later arrested on suspicion of attempted murder and remains in police custody.


Local reports suggest the Boufarkouch attacked the victims because they were 'scantily dressed'. The victims are believed to have been wearing shorts and t-shirts at the time.


Jean-Marc Duprat, a deputy mayor for the nearby town, said the attacker was upset because the victims were wearing shorts and t-shirts.


French TV channel TF1 said he 'may have acted out of religious motives'.


A small folding knife with a blade measuring from 8 to 10 centimeters was found at the scene.


Boufarkouch, who is now in custody, has been known to police for at least 15 years. He reportedly fled after the attack, leaving behind his family and his wife 'in tears'. ​

This article is the OP for another thread. In subsequent articles officials have denied the claim that the attacker was upset because of the victim’s “scanty dress”. That appears to have been made up. They also said they haven’t found any indication of a religious motive. They are looking into a claim that the man was schitzophrenic and had been off his meds for 6 months.


All of this makes me ask this: Why is it, when the perpetrator is muslim, all reason flies out the window. It can’t be mental illness. It has to be his religion. Yet here, it may very well be a psychotic state. But it can’t even be considered when it’s a muslim.

This is NOT a new kind of issue that we should just learn "to cope with". And we NEED to not make ALL of the mistakes that our Euro buds have made. So you need to understand WHY people start threads like this. And until you DO --- you are not gonna be able to talk them down from OVER-reacting.


It's DAILY outrages of senseless violence and mayhem. It CAN NOT be ignored. There is no "fairness violation" here. It's out of proportion to all sense of decency and justice.

So how do you deal with the incredible degree of hatred that is spewed? Ignore it? I don’t know. I’m tired though, it’s really late and I’m not at my best but I'm trying very hard to stay civil, rational and not yell

 

[JimBowie1958]

We are not at war with ISlam, we are at war with a few Muslims that are Salafi hard liners that want to wage Jihad warfare against Christians, Jews and nonSalafi Muslims.

This is a civil war within Islam, why not support the side that wants to live in peace with us, i.w. the other 80% not Salafi?

 

[flacaltenn]

flacaltenn

I’m going to try to start fresh because the conversation did really go off in all sorts of directions as well as off the rails (even to whether minorities should get government funds!). I’m going to try and look at this logically and make my points and put down how I see the conversation.


First – the OP: Time to Declare War on Islam

Not terrorists, not even religious extremists but Islam. The entire religion, every man, woman and child, from the most liberal to the most extreme. So that is are starting point – a blanket assertion that brooks no contradictions and takes no hostages. The OP overshadows the entire conversation.


Second…how did it get into the conversation? I thought someone else had brought it up, but you are right – I did. But not intended as a diversion because it goes hand in hand with such things as honor killing (and the post I brought it up in, #421 was in response to you bringing up honor killings as examples of abusing women which followed from talking about misogynistic cultures. You asked how we got on to “women’s issues” and I think that was a natural segueing of the conversation – cultures, human rights, violence – that the OP inspired. Human rights – specifically that of women, homosexual and ethnic or religious minorities are frequently brought up as a barometer of a culture’s evolution. The biggest criticisms of Islam, as a religion and of many Muslim-majority cultures involve those, especially women’s rights.


So why do acid attacks matter and what relevance do they have on “sick cultures”? I disagree with you on the assertion that the only relevance is “availability of the weapon”. Acid attacks are not just any weapon. They destroy a woman – her life, her looks, her future prospects, any potential for a marriage in those cultures. They are not only horribly disfiguring, they are debilitating and leave her forever ruined. They don’t just destroy her face, they destroy her future and make her worthless in her community and may often leave her wishing for death. And acid is used precisely because of it’s horrific damage. A knife attack doesn’t do that. Beating her up doesn’t do that. Shooting her doesn’t do that. So what kind of sick culture does that to a woman? Where a man goes out and gets acid specifically for that purpose? It is very much a measure of the sickness of the culture.


Third…honor killings. Laws are only as good as the will and means to enforce them. You made a blanket statement that in India that all family murders are prosecuted but that isn’t actually true. I linked to an article that indicates in rural villages, these crimes are handled by the village councils, who are just as likely to judge that the victim as deserving of being killed if they feel she acted dishonerably and they are not charged with murder.


You dismissed my one source, so I’ll offer some others (and if you dismiss these, then please tell me what sort of source you’ll find acceptable).


India: Prosecute Rampant ‘Honor’ Killings

This is a 2010 article, so things could have changed in 6 years. However, it notes the same things as my other source did – namely, accurate statistics on honor killing are difficult to come due to differing definitions of what is honor killing and a tendancy to hide honor killing as something else such as suicide. I’m sure that applies to countries other than India as well.


From the article:

There are no official figures on "honor" killings because they often go unreported or are passed off as suicide or natural deaths by the family members involved. However, a recent independent study found that at least 900 such murders occur every year in Haryana, Punjab, and Uttar Pradesh states alone. There are no estimates of other injuries, unlawful confinement, or forced marriages suffered by women and girls, or by couples, in the name of "honor."


It notes that at least 900 such murders occur every year. That’s a lot. It’s not much different than what my first source said which is not surprising since I think my first article sourced this one for its claims.​

Here is another source which talks about honor killing and laws in a number of countries: Violence against woman - Issue of Honor killing


This article points out the weakness’ and lack of enforcement in honor killing laws (which are nothing more than recognizing honor killing as murder) including Pakistan, which actually doesn’t make it “ok” by apology but by paying compensation (though, since the culprits are usually the family, that is meaningless). That is still not enough – it should be treated like any other murder. But the problem with any of these laws though is that they are only as good as the will to enforce them.


This article also makes the following statement (one caveate – this is 2002, and things might have changed since then) – but it’s noteworthy the number of countries around the world that allow for an “honor defense” when it comes to murdering women (which implies that it is “sanctioned” by the state using your terminology):

Honor killing in national legal codes

According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the 58th session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (2002) concerning cultural practices in the family that reflect violence against women:
The Special Rapporteur indicated that there had been contradictory decisions with regard to the honor defence in Brazil, and that legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defence in that context could be found in the penal codes of Argentina, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Peru, Syria, Turkey, Venezuela and the Palestinian National Authority.​

From another article, concerning India, the author makes the following point: Debate about honor killings resurfaces in India | Asia | DW.COM | 19.05.2010

The age-old practice of honour killing thrives because it is approved of in many parts of the country. But it also thrives because of the reluctance of the police and courts to intervene and the government to understand the seriousness of this issue.​

If a state is unwilling or disinclined to prosecute honor killings – then what good are laws? Is there a significant difference in regards to honor killing, between the culture of India, where this is occurring and the culture of Pakistan or Arab countries, where it also occurs?

You make a statement that I find really odd. You call Saudi Arabia “the most advanced Arab Muslim country”. Saudi Arabia has never been a country I would call “advanced”. It has one of the most conservative religious societies in the Muslim world. Women are heavily restricted in freedom of movement, ability to act independently, even drive. Changes are occurring, very very slowly. I would not ever call it “advanced”.


You also dismiss what I said about rural vs. urban populations saying it’s systemic throughout the whole culture. Again, I disagree.


First – educational levels. Education, especially for women, is probably the single most important driver of liberal values. In developing countries - educational levels are far higher in urban areas than in rural areas and the effects of that can be seen in voting patterns, political initiatives, human rights. I’ll give two examples.


Forced child marriages in Yemen. The Painful Death of a Yemen Child Bride A huge problem, in Yemen where modern values clash with religious and tribal customs. A story of a child brides death on her wedding night angered Yemeni’s enough that they pushed for new laws against such marriages. The push came from urban areas and was met with heavy resistance from rural villages where tribal customs are strong. Not sure if they succeeded and I suspect even if they did, enforcement would be spotty.


Iranian elections. The last election was the first time more liberal candidates made a strong showing (liberal in relation to the normal run of Cleric-vetted candidates). Most of their support came from urban areas. Rural areas were still pretty staunchly conservative.


When you are talking about cultures, there are differences even within the same culture.

I've got my own list of injustices that rile me. The largest of which is that the G8 have NEVER given anything but lip service to ending SLAVERY in our lifetimes. I'm no cultural Imperialist, and I am NOT a global crusader. My PRIMARY concern is that we do not IMPORT these sick cultural practices into OUR country or into our Western Allies. But SLAVERY is a clear bright line and should guide ALL of our International Relations.


SO -- when we finally get back to the topic of the THREAT of importing this cancer -- you devote 2 sentences to acknowledge that you are following the MASSIVE outbreak of FOCUSED inspiration for the shit storm of death and violence that extremist Muslim Terrorism is bringing to the West. Can't seem to keep you on that issue tho.

Ok. Let’s talk about this threat – what you call a massive outbreak. How much is fear and how much is fear mongering? Fear is justified, especially when the threat is seemingly impossible to predict and leaves a huge swath of destruction. Yet, we, as a nation, must be doing something right. We have many successful and flourishing immigrant communities from the same countries you refer to as having “sick cultures”.


We aren’t Europe. Our history, our culture, our immigrant experience is completely different. Our immigrants assimilate well, are largely successful and employed. Oh I’m sure someone is going to bring up “well what about xxxxx terrorist” but in terms of overall numbers I think we are very successful with immigrants and have a long history to show that. We have Somali’s, Lebonese, Syrians, Iraqi’s, Afghanis, Palestinians, etc etc. We must be doing something right. But now, suddenly, a massive tidal wave of fear is rolling over us and its target is nebulous. We aren’t taking in a huge number of refugees and those refugees are heavily vetted to begin with. Even proposed expansions of that number are still very small.


One recent Large Story was the prosecution of 5 Somali immigrants who tried to travel Syria and join the fighting. The Small Story, that was entirely ignored was that their disapearance was reported to authorities by the Somali immigrant community and their families who were concerned.


Unfortunately, I’m winding down…I spent too much time on the beginning of this and to little time on the end so I’ll try to say more later. But I’ll end with this article you posted as an example:


-------------------

Knifing a mother and kids at a quiet French resort YESTERDAY -- with the Muslim's wife and kids watching the carnage. Motivation --


Mother and three daughters are STABBED in French holiday resort

A mother and her three daughters were reportedly stabbed while on holiday in France because they were 'scantily dressed'.


A knifeman attacked the woman and her three daughters, aged eight, 12, and 14, in the village of Garde-Colombe near Laragne-Monteglin, in south-east France, at around 10.30 this morning.


The attacker, named locally as Moroccan-born Mohamed Boufarkouch, was later arrested on suspicion of attempted murder and remains in police custody.


Local reports suggest the Boufarkouch attacked the victims because they were 'scantily dressed'. The victims are believed to have been wearing shorts and t-shirts at the time.


Jean-Marc Duprat, a deputy mayor for the nearby town, said the attacker was upset because the victims were wearing shorts and t-shirts.


French TV channel TF1 said he 'may have acted out of religious motives'.


A small folding knife with a blade measuring from 8 to 10 centimeters was found at the scene.


Boufarkouch, who is now in custody, has been known to police for at least 15 years. He reportedly fled after the attack, leaving behind his family and his wife 'in tears'. ​

This article is the OP for another thread. In subsequent articles officials have denied the claim that the attacker was upset because of the victim’s “scanty dress”. That appears to have been made up. They also said they haven’t found any indication of a religious motive. They are looking into a claim that the man was schitzophrenic and had been off his meds for 6 months.


All of this makes me ask this: Why is it, when the perpetrator is muslim, all reason flies out the window. It can’t be mental illness. It has to be his religion. Yet here, it may very well be a psychotic state. But it can’t even be considered when it’s a muslim.

This is NOT a new kind of issue that we should just learn "to cope with". And we NEED to not make ALL of the mistakes that our Euro buds have made. So you need to understand WHY people start threads like this. And until you DO --- you are not gonna be able to talk them down from OVER-reacting.


It's DAILY outrages of senseless violence and mayhem. It CAN NOT be ignored. There is no "fairness violation" here. It's out of proportion to all sense of decency and justice.

So how do you deal with the incredible degree of hatred that is spewed? Ignore it? I don’t know. I’m tired though, it’s really late and I’m not at my best but I'm trying very hard to stay civil, rational and not yell

I'm gonna skip the questions about acid attacks and honor killings for another day. Except to say that INDEED a knife CAN do the same thing., Just requires more effort. And to comment on the French attack about 40 hours ago. MULTIPLE local witnesses INCLUDING the vice mayor of the nearest city made those comments about the motivation. Multiple local TV stations reported it that way and the LEGAL authorities are simply RESERVED in their judgment about motive -- as they SHOULD be. Follow this thru trial and see.

But as I've told you -- western psychology is one of those reviled concepts to folks of that culture. And the "mental sickness" is due to being suckled at the breast of intolerance and dogma. Entire cultures are "mental" in terms of western standards. Even certified cases PERCEIVE and trigger on conditioned stimulus. And it would not be surprising to find the Occam's razor explanation is what actually triggered such an attack. Or the motive for the Ax wielding Jr Jihadi who the day before went off on a trainload of strangers in Germany.

Want to focus on your last questions. Because those are the important part. I appreciate your genuine desire to draw a line and defend that position. Because this growing anger against Islam SHOULD NOT result in a full-out counter attack on Islam with all the stereotypes and ignorance that usually feeds ANY mass persecution. You gotta know -- with my background and baggage -- that I am VERY AWARE of the consequences of the pot boiling over. So I welcome your help to assure nothing of sort happens in OUR part of the world.

I think I've told you before (maybe in back channel) that to DRAW that line -- you have got to understand the fear and the anxiety of many TOTALLY RATIONAL people who are at their limit of tolerance. If you do not accept their angst and evidence -- you have NO HOPE of being useful in "moderating" the situation. (not a work related comment -- )

Folks are concerned about THEIR cultures and values when this violence is so widespread and focuses back to the same vile explanations. You need to understand that. And there is no reason in the WORLD to be bringing up a defense of ALL of Arab/Tribal Islamic culture. Unless of course -- there's a connection there that is personal and not disclosed.

NO -- you do NOT ignore it. You attack the OVER reactions, the innate fear and hatred. Not defend EVERY ASPECT of senseless violence by stirring up resentment over unscalable comparisons to threats from the cultures and values of the people you are trying to reason with. That's just confrontation. Going after Judaism, Christianity, lack of psych resources, etc.

When the argument comes up about NAMING the threat by it's rightful name -- RADICAL Islamic terrorism, you work with that. Because it's actually a good starting point to DESCRIBING the problem. It's not Islam. It's the way that Islam is PRACTICED in very violent and repressed areas of the globe. NOT the way it is practiced in Nashville Tenn or MOST western Muslim enclaves.

Not necessary to constantly beat up Bible Interpretations or invoke RADICAL Christian terrorism or quote statistics about honor killings in places that are NOT part of the concern. THat's for another day.

I always appreciate your convos. Even if I need a seatbelt, a pack of Drama-Mine and a GPS to find my home afterwards.
And being a warrior for "fair" -- is what you are. And I like that. But on these topics -- you are lobbing large cans of whoop-ass and working way too hard -- when just a bit of "arbitration" on the fears and angst would do. ...

Unless of course (as I've suspected all along) that you ARE a covert Hamas propagandist --- but I'd never say that in the open forum..

 

[dannyboys]

Gawd Coyote --- you're trying to wear me down with all this formatting. And nuances and footwork about honor killings and honor acid attacks. The latter of which I don't even understand the relevance or your confident assertion that it occurs in places other than Muslim nations. But in Muslim Arab nations, they don't NEED acid. They arrest people for these offenses and stone them or jail them or kill them by the power of the state.

And I've yet to see evidence for acid as a weapon of choice for an honor killing anyway. Not like hitting your sister with a piece of lumber or drugging her and smothering her.

So I'm starting fresh.

Ok...so you are trying really really hard to claim it's NOT honor killing when it's done in India but it IS honor killing in Islamic countries??? Come on flacaltenn - in India it's about CASTE and FAMILY HONOR. How many more articles do you need? That particular article, while it highlighted one woman, talked also about honor killing in broader terms, in India. Here are some more:

NONE of these articles give ANY statistics on Honor Killings. I can't remember HOW you went off on Honor "acid attacks", but those are not killings. And I saw almost NO examples of FAMILIES (a prerequisite for an "honor anything" using acid as a weapon. These last 2 articles are mum on numbers. The NY Times article is confined to one RURAL area where traditions are ancient. And the article said SOMETIMES they result in NON-family members taking out violence. These are not NATIONAL problems. It is ILLEGAL in India. Honor killings and punishments in ARAB Muslim states are largely RECOGNIZED and SANCTIONED by the freakin' govt.

Someone, at some point - brought up acid attacks and honor killings SEPERATELY. I addressed them as SEPERATE things INDICATIVE of CULTURAL problems, the same cultural problems I did NOT I didn't start THAT conversation nor did I ever say honor killing was done by acid. Wasn't it YOU who brought up acid attacks and honor killing?

Ok. Let's look at honor killings and statistics then because you sure are working hard to excuse it in non-Muslim cultures.

Statistics & Data

• 5000 honour killings internationally per year.
• 1000 honour killings occur in India
• 1000 honour killings occur in Pakistan
• 12 honour killings per year in UK

Honour Killings By Region

India and Pakistan both have recorded rates of ‘honour’ killings of around 1000 per year, although as ever figures remain unreliable. The levels of such crimes are less known in Bangladesh, but there have been cases in diasporic Bangladeshi communities so there is a potential risk there.


In both India and Pakistan, the informal court systems present problems to women. Where the central criminal justice system is weak or unaffordable to people living in rural communities, tribal jirga or caste panchayat may order HBV in cases of intra-familial disputes. Such informal legal systems may demand the deaths of women, or in some cases compensation marriages where young girls and women are forced to marry to restore equilibrium in family disputes. It was one such jirga that ordered the notorious gang-rape of Mukhtaran Mai.


Particular issues in Hindu communities are caste and gotra (patriline). Marriage opportunitess are very restricted and there may be particularly fierce opposition to any contact between a woman and a male of lower caste; it is often the case that it is the man who is the primary victim of violence by the family of the woman he has approached. While it may be required that any partnerships do not lose caste, marriages within a gotra are condemned as incestuous, despite their rarely being any close consanguinueity between any members of the same gotra. Panchayats have actively policed gotra restrictions and called for the deaths of couples who have contravened such norms.


While in both India and Pakistan there have been a great deal of discussion around ‘honour’ killings, India has taken more assertive legal action, including awarding the death penalty to large numbers of persons who have colluded in murder. In Pakistan, there is more of a culture of impunity and while police reports may be filed, there is often little follow-up, particularly in rural areas.


In Afghanistan, ‘honour’ crimes remain very high along with many other forms of violence against women, and are increasing as attitudes fail to keep pace with economic and social changes. Economic immiseration has also led to high levels of early marriage. Finding safety is difficult as women fleeing their husbands or families may be imprisoned and returned to them and there is, again, a culture of impunity even more profound than that which exists in Pakistan.​

Honour killings: India's crying shame

According to statistics from the United Nations, one in five cases of honour killing internationally every year comes from India. Of the 5000 cases reported internationally, 1000 are from India. Non-governmental organisations put the number at four times this figure. They claim it is around 20,000 cases globally every year.

....Some gruesome cases that have been reported in the media in recent times from different regions in the country include that of 23 year old Dharmender Barak and 18 year old Nidhi Barak, who paid a heavy price for defying their families and falling in love.


The couple, from a village in Rohtak district in Harayana, were tortured, mutilated and killed by the girl’s father and their relatives when they tried to run away and marry. A friend whom the couple had confided in, leaked their plans to the girl’s parents, who lured them back with assurances, only to allegedly kill them in the most cruel manner. The police is treating the ‘double murder’ as a ‘honour crime’.


In September 2013, the Haryana police arrested a police sub-inspector in connection with the killing of a 19 year old girl from Panipat. Meenakshi had eloped with her lover and the cop had tracked her down and handed her over to her family, who then allegedly murdered her.

​

Is this what you call families "threatening to disown children"? Is that all it is? This is NOT a malignant culture - SERIOUSLY?????

Families all over the world threaten to disown children over marriage choices. And BTW in India -- even if a child's choice is WITHIN a Caste it can still be vetoed by their parents. This is not malignant culture. My grandmother said if I married a Goyim it would kill her. About 2600 times. I married a nice Jewish girl and when we visited she pointed to a pic of an earlier girlfriend on her desk and told my wife how lovely she was in that photo. It's all drama.

Wow. Honor killing in India is "all drama".

Acid is cheaper than milk in all those countries, yet you are still trying to claim that throwing acid on women in Muslim countries has a different MOTIVATION than throwing acid on women in Hindu countries?

Honor killings to me are murder - there is no difference. It's murder, but flac - you brought in honor killings as symptomatic of a sick MUSLIM culture, seperate from "murder"....so.,....is it murder or something else? And if it is something else what makes a sick mysoginest MUSLIM culture any different than a sick mysogonist Hindu culture or a sick mysogonist Christian South American culture - all of which are very paternalistic and chauvanistic and treat women like crap?

Honor killings are illegal in most countries - as murder - but they are seldom prosecuted.

You failed to provide any evidence of WIDE SPREAD "honor acid attacks" in India that were due to being Hindu. Or even done by FAMILIES for their honor. Most all of those anecdotes were about perverts and jilted lovers taking revenge.

And you aren't going to get any evidence of "wide spread honor acid attacks" because I wasn't claiming the acid attacks were honor attacks, but that they and honor killings are symptomatic of a sick culture. Where it's being combatted, and where women's rights are being recongized is in urban educated populations of these countries - get out of the city, and it's the same sick culture you complain about in Muslim countries (which also exhibit differences between educated urban vs uneducated rural/village populations).

I brought up that Media star twerker in Pakistan and the other cases as an example of how much easier it is to GET AWAY with honor killings in Pakistan and Arab countries than it is ANY of the places that you dug up to blow smoke on the situation.. From articles just about the Quandeel murder I LEARNED and you apparently didn't ----

Brother of murdered Pakistani Kim Kardashian boasts of pride at death

Pakistani law allows families to 'forgive' their loved ones meaning they do not face charges for honour killings, but the government has stepped in to ban this from happening to Muhammad Waseem, according to Yahoo News.

Brother of Pakistan's Qandeel Baloch: I'm 'proud' of killing sister - CNN.com

On the list of 145 countries featured in the World Economic Forum's 2015 Gender Gap Report, Pakistan is second to last with regards to gender disparity.
According to the Independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, violence against women is rampant, with as many as 212 women being killed in the name of 'honor' in the first five months of 2016.
Pakistan's Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, has vowed to tackle the problem but critics say few concrete steps have been taken.

Forget the smoke about south africa and India and the other deflections. Do you understand the significance of the facts above? Can you MATCH THOSE? Don't think you can..

Above, I posted to a link that stated how local law enforcement and governments are complicit in honor killings in India as well as statistics on how many are thought to occur. 1000 a year in India. Does that match your claim? Are you still going to insist that it is "smoke" and "deflection"?

And those are different issues than honor killing and disfiguring women with acid.

I think mashing folks on a France boardwalk with a massive truck, while gunning them down out the window is more of an issue affecting WESTERN societies right now -- than honor killings or acid attacks.

I never said differently.

Excuse me for being focused. I'm wondering how you dismiss the weekly carnage from the radical Islamic Terror news.

I don't.

Because there seems to be a lot of dancing and NOT A LOT of remorse or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT about Brussels, or Kenya or San Bernadino, or Istanbul or Nice or Orlando or the dozen other HIDEOUS attacks just THIS YEAR. All inspired by warped culture in Arab Muslim hell holes.

I've condemnend them and ACKNOWLEDGED THEM. What - are you waiting for me to jump on the "War on Islam" bandwagon? Is that what you want because that sure is what everyone else seems to be doing.

How da fuck do you do that? Post after post. Thread after thread?

How is it that people are ONLY concerned about women's rights, violence towards women and SICK MYSOGONISTIC CULTURES when it's perpetrated by Muslims?????

NOT A SINGLE FUCKING THREAD about what happens to women routinely in India or the Congo or Columbia which right on our doorstep but THREAD AFTER THREAD and POST AFTER POST about what Muslims do to women. No one CARES if it isn't Muslims. Do you ever wonder about that?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was sure the thread title was about Islam.
What other cultures do or not is the subject of another thread.
"But Mommy! Those bad people who aren't muslim do bad stuff too right? So that means we don't have to address what's going on within Islam right?"
Go fuck yourself!
You STILL haven't answered my question. Does Islam seperate 'Church from State'?
No one is buying your bullshit equivocation: "Well some muslims interpret the teachings of 'Alla-Wishes' differently than others".
BULLSHIT!
Islam is an 'all-in' fucking death cult.
Go to Dearborn and stand on a corner holding a sign saying: "This muslim doesn't believe in killing anyone who leaves the Islamic faith".
Where would you like your personal belonging sent?
YA FUCKING RIGHT.
At least we know who the first LIB coward pussy victim will be when the Caliphate takes over the US.
If you happen to be gay I advise you to stay away from tall buildings.

Where did you ask that question?

And, are you trying to claim Dearborn instituted Sharia law?

I'm done with you!
You remind me of my ex-wife after a couple of glasses of wine when she was
riding the cotton pony'.
The bitch loved nothing better than to spend hours attempting to get into stupid ridiculous 'circular' arguments with anyone she could.
What's the fucking color blue?
How come the letter 'B' isn't written the other way around.
Over time everyone, including her own family, who knew the bitch knew when not to answer her phone calls or visit with her.
Me?
I talked a friend from work into getting into a sneaky little affair with her. He took polaroid photos of her naked.
I took the photos to my lawyer.
I filed for divorce.
I threw all her belonging onto the lawn. Changed all the locks. Sold her car which was registered in my name.
I never saw or heard from the bitch again.

Like what I'm doing to you now.
Permanent Ignore.

 

[Montrovant]

Gawd Coyote --- you're trying to wear me down with all this formatting. And nuances and footwork about honor killings and honor acid attacks. The latter of which I don't even understand the relevance or your confident assertion that it occurs in places other than Muslim nations. But in Muslim Arab nations, they don't NEED acid. They arrest people for these offenses and stone them or jail them or kill them by the power of the state.

And I've yet to see evidence for acid as a weapon of choice for an honor killing anyway. Not like hitting your sister with a piece of lumber or drugging her and smothering her.

So I'm starting fresh.

Ok...so you are trying really really hard to claim it's NOT honor killing when it's done in India but it IS honor killing in Islamic countries??? Come on flacaltenn - in India it's about CASTE and FAMILY HONOR. How many more articles do you need? That particular article, while it highlighted one woman, talked also about honor killing in broader terms, in India. Here are some more:

NONE of these articles give ANY statistics on Honor Killings. I can't remember HOW you went off on Honor "acid attacks", but those are not killings. And I saw almost NO examples of FAMILIES (a prerequisite for an "honor anything" using acid as a weapon. These last 2 articles are mum on numbers. The NY Times article is confined to one RURAL area where traditions are ancient. And the article said SOMETIMES they result in NON-family members taking out violence. These are not NATIONAL problems. It is ILLEGAL in India. Honor killings and punishments in ARAB Muslim states are largely RECOGNIZED and SANCTIONED by the freakin' govt.

Someone, at some point - brought up acid attacks and honor killings SEPERATELY. I addressed them as SEPERATE things INDICATIVE of CULTURAL problems, the same cultural problems I did NOT I didn't start THAT conversation nor did I ever say honor killing was done by acid. Wasn't it YOU who brought up acid attacks and honor killing?

Ok. Let's look at honor killings and statistics then because you sure are working hard to excuse it in non-Muslim cultures.

Statistics & Data

• 5000 honour killings internationally per year.
• 1000 honour killings occur in India
• 1000 honour killings occur in Pakistan
• 12 honour killings per year in UK

Honour Killings By Region

India and Pakistan both have recorded rates of ‘honour’ killings of around 1000 per year, although as ever figures remain unreliable. The levels of such crimes are less known in Bangladesh, but there have been cases in diasporic Bangladeshi communities so there is a potential risk there.


In both India and Pakistan, the informal court systems present problems to women. Where the central criminal justice system is weak or unaffordable to people living in rural communities, tribal jirga or caste panchayat may order HBV in cases of intra-familial disputes. Such informal legal systems may demand the deaths of women, or in some cases compensation marriages where young girls and women are forced to marry to restore equilibrium in family disputes. It was one such jirga that ordered the notorious gang-rape of Mukhtaran Mai.


Particular issues in Hindu communities are caste and gotra (patriline). Marriage opportunitess are very restricted and there may be particularly fierce opposition to any contact between a woman and a male of lower caste; it is often the case that it is the man who is the primary victim of violence by the family of the woman he has approached. While it may be required that any partnerships do not lose caste, marriages within a gotra are condemned as incestuous, despite their rarely being any close consanguinueity between any members of the same gotra. Panchayats have actively policed gotra restrictions and called for the deaths of couples who have contravened such norms.


While in both India and Pakistan there have been a great deal of discussion around ‘honour’ killings, India has taken more assertive legal action, including awarding the death penalty to large numbers of persons who have colluded in murder. In Pakistan, there is more of a culture of impunity and while police reports may be filed, there is often little follow-up, particularly in rural areas.


In Afghanistan, ‘honour’ crimes remain very high along with many other forms of violence against women, and are increasing as attitudes fail to keep pace with economic and social changes. Economic immiseration has also led to high levels of early marriage. Finding safety is difficult as women fleeing their husbands or families may be imprisoned and returned to them and there is, again, a culture of impunity even more profound than that which exists in Pakistan.​

Honour killings: India's crying shame

According to statistics from the United Nations, one in five cases of honour killing internationally every year comes from India. Of the 5000 cases reported internationally, 1000 are from India. Non-governmental organisations put the number at four times this figure. They claim it is around 20,000 cases globally every year.

....Some gruesome cases that have been reported in the media in recent times from different regions in the country include that of 23 year old Dharmender Barak and 18 year old Nidhi Barak, who paid a heavy price for defying their families and falling in love.


The couple, from a village in Rohtak district in Harayana, were tortured, mutilated and killed by the girl’s father and their relatives when they tried to run away and marry. A friend whom the couple had confided in, leaked their plans to the girl’s parents, who lured them back with assurances, only to allegedly kill them in the most cruel manner. The police is treating the ‘double murder’ as a ‘honour crime’.


In September 2013, the Haryana police arrested a police sub-inspector in connection with the killing of a 19 year old girl from Panipat. Meenakshi had eloped with her lover and the cop had tracked her down and handed her over to her family, who then allegedly murdered her.

​

Is this what you call families "threatening to disown children"? Is that all it is? This is NOT a malignant culture - SERIOUSLY?????

Families all over the world threaten to disown children over marriage choices. And BTW in India -- even if a child's choice is WITHIN a Caste it can still be vetoed by their parents. This is not malignant culture. My grandmother said if I married a Goyim it would kill her. About 2600 times. I married a nice Jewish girl and when we visited she pointed to a pic of an earlier girlfriend on her desk and told my wife how lovely she was in that photo. It's all drama.

Wow. Honor killing in India is "all drama".

Acid is cheaper than milk in all those countries, yet you are still trying to claim that throwing acid on women in Muslim countries has a different MOTIVATION than throwing acid on women in Hindu countries?

Honor killings to me are murder - there is no difference. It's murder, but flac - you brought in honor killings as symptomatic of a sick MUSLIM culture, seperate from "murder"....so.,....is it murder or something else? And if it is something else what makes a sick mysoginest MUSLIM culture any different than a sick mysogonist Hindu culture or a sick mysogonist Christian South American culture - all of which are very paternalistic and chauvanistic and treat women like crap?

Honor killings are illegal in most countries - as murder - but they are seldom prosecuted.

You failed to provide any evidence of WIDE SPREAD "honor acid attacks" in India that were due to being Hindu. Or even done by FAMILIES for their honor. Most all of those anecdotes were about perverts and jilted lovers taking revenge.

And you aren't going to get any evidence of "wide spread honor acid attacks" because I wasn't claiming the acid attacks were honor attacks, but that they and honor killings are symptomatic of a sick culture. Where it's being combatted, and where women's rights are being recongized is in urban educated populations of these countries - get out of the city, and it's the same sick culture you complain about in Muslim countries (which also exhibit differences between educated urban vs uneducated rural/village populations).

I brought up that Media star twerker in Pakistan and the other cases as an example of how much easier it is to GET AWAY with honor killings in Pakistan and Arab countries than it is ANY of the places that you dug up to blow smoke on the situation.. From articles just about the Quandeel murder I LEARNED and you apparently didn't ----

Brother of murdered Pakistani Kim Kardashian boasts of pride at death

Pakistani law allows families to 'forgive' their loved ones meaning they do not face charges for honour killings, but the government has stepped in to ban this from happening to Muhammad Waseem, according to Yahoo News.

Brother of Pakistan's Qandeel Baloch: I'm 'proud' of killing sister - CNN.com

On the list of 145 countries featured in the World Economic Forum's 2015 Gender Gap Report, Pakistan is second to last with regards to gender disparity.
According to the Independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, violence against women is rampant, with as many as 212 women being killed in the name of 'honor' in the first five months of 2016.
Pakistan's Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, has vowed to tackle the problem but critics say few concrete steps have been taken.

Forget the smoke about south africa and India and the other deflections. Do you understand the significance of the facts above? Can you MATCH THOSE? Don't think you can..

Above, I posted to a link that stated how local law enforcement and governments are complicit in honor killings in India as well as statistics on how many are thought to occur. 1000 a year in India. Does that match your claim? Are you still going to insist that it is "smoke" and "deflection"?

And those are different issues than honor killing and disfiguring women with acid.

I think mashing folks on a France boardwalk with a massive truck, while gunning them down out the window is more of an issue affecting WESTERN societies right now -- than honor killings or acid attacks.

I never said differently.

Excuse me for being focused. I'm wondering how you dismiss the weekly carnage from the radical Islamic Terror news.

I don't.

Because there seems to be a lot of dancing and NOT A LOT of remorse or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT about Brussels, or Kenya or San Bernadino, or Istanbul or Nice or Orlando or the dozen other HIDEOUS attacks just THIS YEAR. All inspired by warped culture in Arab Muslim hell holes.

I've condemnend them and ACKNOWLEDGED THEM. What - are you waiting for me to jump on the "War on Islam" bandwagon? Is that what you want because that sure is what everyone else seems to be doing.

How da fuck do you do that? Post after post. Thread after thread?

How is it that people are ONLY concerned about women's rights, violence towards women and SICK MYSOGONISTIC CULTURES when it's perpetrated by Muslims?????

NOT A SINGLE FUCKING THREAD about what happens to women routinely in India or the Congo or Columbia which right on our doorstep but THREAD AFTER THREAD and POST AFTER POST about what Muslims do to women. No one CARES if it isn't Muslims. Do you ever wonder about that?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was sure the thread title was about Islam.
What other cultures do or not is the subject of another thread.
"But Mommy! Those bad people who aren't muslim do bad stuff too right? So that means we don't have to address what's going on within Islam right?"
Go fuck yourself!
You STILL haven't answered my question. Does Islam seperate 'Church from State'?
No one is buying your bullshit equivocation: "Well some muslims interpret the teachings of 'Alla-Wishes' differently than others".
BULLSHIT!
Islam is an 'all-in' fucking death cult.
Go to Dearborn and stand on a corner holding a sign saying: "This muslim doesn't believe in killing anyone who leaves the Islamic faith".
Where would you like your personal belonging sent?
YA FUCKING RIGHT.
At least we know who the first LIB coward pussy victim will be when the Caliphate takes over the US.
If you happen to be gay I advise you to stay away from tall buildings.

Where did you ask that question?

And, are you trying to claim Dearborn instituted Sharia law?

I'm done with you!
You remind me of my ex-wife after a couple of glasses of wine when she was
riding the cotton pony'.
The bitch loved nothing better than to spend hours attempting to get into stupid ridiculous 'circular' arguments with anyone she could.
What's the fucking color blue?
How come the letter 'B' isn't written the other way around.
Over time everyone, including her own family, who knew the bitch knew when not to answer her phone calls or visit with her.
Me?
I talked a friend from work into getting into a sneaky little affair with her. He took polaroid photos of her naked.
I took the photos to my lawyer.
I filed for divorce.
I threw all her belonging onto the lawn. Changed all the locks. Sold her car which was registered in my name.
I never saw or heard from the bitch again.

Like what I'm doing to you now.
Permanent Ignore.

Felt the need to tell a story before putting someone on ignore, did ya?

 

[Tilly]

Gawd Coyote --- you're trying to wear me down with all this formatting. And nuances and footwork about honor killings and honor acid attacks. The latter of which I don't even understand the relevance or your confident assertion that it occurs in places other than Muslim nations. But in Muslim Arab nations, they don't NEED acid. They arrest people for these offenses and stone them or jail them or kill them by the power of the state.

And I've yet to see evidence for acid as a weapon of choice for an honor killing anyway. Not like hitting your sister with a piece of lumber or drugging her and smothering her.

So I'm starting fresh.

Ok...so you are trying really really hard to claim it's NOT honor killing when it's done in India but it IS honor killing in Islamic countries??? Come on flacaltenn - in India it's about CASTE and FAMILY HONOR. How many more articles do you need? That particular article, while it highlighted one woman, talked also about honor killing in broader terms, in India. Here are some more:

NONE of these articles give ANY statistics on Honor Killings. I can't remember HOW you went off on Honor "acid attacks", but those are not killings. And I saw almost NO examples of FAMILIES (a prerequisite for an "honor anything" using acid as a weapon. These last 2 articles are mum on numbers. The NY Times article is confined to one RURAL area where traditions are ancient. And the article said SOMETIMES they result in NON-family members taking out violence. These are not NATIONAL problems. It is ILLEGAL in India. Honor killings and punishments in ARAB Muslim states are largely RECOGNIZED and SANCTIONED by the freakin' govt.

Someone, at some point - brought up acid attacks and honor killings SEPERATELY. I addressed them as SEPERATE things INDICATIVE of CULTURAL problems, the same cultural problems I did NOT I didn't start THAT conversation nor did I ever say honor killing was done by acid. Wasn't it YOU who brought up acid attacks and honor killing?

Ok. Let's look at honor killings and statistics then because you sure are working hard to excuse it in non-Muslim cultures.

Statistics & Data

• 5000 honour killings internationally per year.
• 1000 honour killings occur in India
• 1000 honour killings occur in Pakistan
• 12 honour killings per year in UK

Honour Killings By Region

India and Pakistan both have recorded rates of ‘honour’ killings of around 1000 per year, although as ever figures remain unreliable. The levels of such crimes are less known in Bangladesh, but there have been cases in diasporic Bangladeshi communities so there is a potential risk there.


In both India and Pakistan, the informal court systems present problems to women. Where the central criminal justice system is weak or unaffordable to people living in rural communities, tribal jirga or caste panchayat may order HBV in cases of intra-familial disputes. Such informal legal systems may demand the deaths of women, or in some cases compensation marriages where young girls and women are forced to marry to restore equilibrium in family disputes. It was one such jirga that ordered the notorious gang-rape of Mukhtaran Mai.


Particular issues in Hindu communities are caste and gotra (patriline). Marriage opportunitess are very restricted and there may be particularly fierce opposition to any contact between a woman and a male of lower caste; it is often the case that it is the man who is the primary victim of violence by the family of the woman he has approached. While it may be required that any partnerships do not lose caste, marriages within a gotra are condemned as incestuous, despite their rarely being any close consanguinueity between any members of the same gotra. Panchayats have actively policed gotra restrictions and called for the deaths of couples who have contravened such norms.


While in both India and Pakistan there have been a great deal of discussion around ‘honour’ killings, India has taken more assertive legal action, including awarding the death penalty to large numbers of persons who have colluded in murder. In Pakistan, there is more of a culture of impunity and while police reports may be filed, there is often little follow-up, particularly in rural areas.


In Afghanistan, ‘honour’ crimes remain very high along with many other forms of violence against women, and are increasing as attitudes fail to keep pace with economic and social changes. Economic immiseration has also led to high levels of early marriage. Finding safety is difficult as women fleeing their husbands or families may be imprisoned and returned to them and there is, again, a culture of impunity even more profound than that which exists in Pakistan.​

Honour killings: India's crying shame

According to statistics from the United Nations, one in five cases of honour killing internationally every year comes from India. Of the 5000 cases reported internationally, 1000 are from India. Non-governmental organisations put the number at four times this figure. They claim it is around 20,000 cases globally every year.

....Some gruesome cases that have been reported in the media in recent times from different regions in the country include that of 23 year old Dharmender Barak and 18 year old Nidhi Barak, who paid a heavy price for defying their families and falling in love.


The couple, from a village in Rohtak district in Harayana, were tortured, mutilated and killed by the girl’s father and their relatives when they tried to run away and marry. A friend whom the couple had confided in, leaked their plans to the girl’s parents, who lured them back with assurances, only to allegedly kill them in the most cruel manner. The police is treating the ‘double murder’ as a ‘honour crime’.


In September 2013, the Haryana police arrested a police sub-inspector in connection with the killing of a 19 year old girl from Panipat. Meenakshi had eloped with her lover and the cop had tracked her down and handed her over to her family, who then allegedly murdered her.

​

Is this what you call families "threatening to disown children"? Is that all it is? This is NOT a malignant culture - SERIOUSLY?????

Families all over the world threaten to disown children over marriage choices. And BTW in India -- even if a child's choice is WITHIN a Caste it can still be vetoed by their parents. This is not malignant culture. My grandmother said if I married a Goyim it would kill her. About 2600 times. I married a nice Jewish girl and when we visited she pointed to a pic of an earlier girlfriend on her desk and told my wife how lovely she was in that photo. It's all drama.

Wow. Honor killing in India is "all drama".

Acid is cheaper than milk in all those countries, yet you are still trying to claim that throwing acid on women in Muslim countries has a different MOTIVATION than throwing acid on women in Hindu countries?

Honor killings to me are murder - there is no difference. It's murder, but flac - you brought in honor killings as symptomatic of a sick MUSLIM culture, seperate from "murder"....so.,....is it murder or something else? And if it is something else what makes a sick mysoginest MUSLIM culture any different than a sick mysogonist Hindu culture or a sick mysogonist Christian South American culture - all of which are very paternalistic and chauvanistic and treat women like crap?

Honor killings are illegal in most countries - as murder - but they are seldom prosecuted.

You failed to provide any evidence of WIDE SPREAD "honor acid attacks" in India that were due to being Hindu. Or even done by FAMILIES for their honor. Most all of those anecdotes were about perverts and jilted lovers taking revenge.

And you aren't going to get any evidence of "wide spread honor acid attacks" because I wasn't claiming the acid attacks were honor attacks, but that they and honor killings are symptomatic of a sick culture. Where it's being combatted, and where women's rights are being recongized is in urban educated populations of these countries - get out of the city, and it's the same sick culture you complain about in Muslim countries (which also exhibit differences between educated urban vs uneducated rural/village populations).

I brought up that Media star twerker in Pakistan and the other cases as an example of how much easier it is to GET AWAY with honor killings in Pakistan and Arab countries than it is ANY of the places that you dug up to blow smoke on the situation.. From articles just about the Quandeel murder I LEARNED and you apparently didn't ----

Brother of murdered Pakistani Kim Kardashian boasts of pride at death

Pakistani law allows families to 'forgive' their loved ones meaning they do not face charges for honour killings, but the government has stepped in to ban this from happening to Muhammad Waseem, according to Yahoo News.

Brother of Pakistan's Qandeel Baloch: I'm 'proud' of killing sister - CNN.com

On the list of 145 countries featured in the World Economic Forum's 2015 Gender Gap Report, Pakistan is second to last with regards to gender disparity.
According to the Independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, violence against women is rampant, with as many as 212 women being killed in the name of 'honor' in the first five months of 2016.
Pakistan's Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, has vowed to tackle the problem but critics say few concrete steps have been taken.

Forget the smoke about south africa and India and the other deflections. Do you understand the significance of the facts above? Can you MATCH THOSE? Don't think you can..

Above, I posted to a link that stated how local law enforcement and governments are complicit in honor killings in India as well as statistics on how many are thought to occur. 1000 a year in India. Does that match your claim? Are you still going to insist that it is "smoke" and "deflection"?

And those are different issues than honor killing and disfiguring women with acid.

I think mashing folks on a France boardwalk with a massive truck, while gunning them down out the window is more of an issue affecting WESTERN societies right now -- than honor killings or acid attacks.

I never said differently.

Excuse me for being focused. I'm wondering how you dismiss the weekly carnage from the radical Islamic Terror news.

I don't.

Because there seems to be a lot of dancing and NOT A LOT of remorse or even ACKNOWLEDGEMENT about Brussels, or Kenya or San Bernadino, or Istanbul or Nice or Orlando or the dozen other HIDEOUS attacks just THIS YEAR. All inspired by warped culture in Arab Muslim hell holes.

I've condemnend them and ACKNOWLEDGED THEM. What - are you waiting for me to jump on the "War on Islam" bandwagon? Is that what you want because that sure is what everyone else seems to be doing.

How da fuck do you do that? Post after post. Thread after thread?

How is it that people are ONLY concerned about women's rights, violence towards women and SICK MYSOGONISTIC CULTURES when it's perpetrated by Muslims?????

NOT A SINGLE FUCKING THREAD about what happens to women routinely in India or the Congo or Columbia which right on our doorstep but THREAD AFTER THREAD and POST AFTER POST about what Muslims do to women. No one CARES if it isn't Muslims. Do you ever wonder about that?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was sure the thread title was about Islam.
What other cultures do or not is the subject of another thread.
"But Mommy! Those bad people who aren't muslim do bad stuff too right? So that means we don't have to address what's going on within Islam right?"
Go fuck yourself!
You STILL haven't answered my question. Does Islam seperate 'Church from State'?
No one is buying your bullshit equivocation: "Well some muslims interpret the teachings of 'Alla-Wishes' differently than others".
BULLSHIT!
Islam is an 'all-in' fucking death cult.
Go to Dearborn and stand on a corner holding a sign saying: "This muslim doesn't believe in killing anyone who leaves the Islamic faith".
Where would you like your personal belonging sent?
YA FUCKING RIGHT.
At least we know who the first LIB coward pussy victim will be when the Caliphate takes over the US.
If you happen to be gay I advise you to stay away from tall buildings.

Where did you ask that question?

And, are you trying to claim Dearborn instituted Sharia law?

I'm done with you!
You remind me of my ex-wife after a couple of glasses of wine when she was
riding the cotton pony'.
The bitch loved nothing better than to spend hours attempting to get into stupid ridiculous 'circular' arguments with anyone she could.
What's the fucking color blue?
How come the letter 'B' isn't written the other way around.
Over time everyone, including her own family, who knew the bitch knew when not to answer her phone calls or visit with her.
Me?
I talked a friend from work into getting into a sneaky little affair with her. He took polaroid photos of her naked.
I took the photos to my lawyer.
I filed for divorce.
I threw all her belonging onto the lawn. Changed all the locks. Sold her car which was registered in my name.
I never saw or heard from the bitch again.

Like what I'm doing to you now.
Permanent Ignore.

Unfortunately you can't put her on permanent ignore, but it is easy to ignore her monotonous tirades nonetheless