Time to attack iran

rhodescholar

Gold Member
May 31, 2009
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Strafing Iranian RGs with my .50 Cal
Here is a great article on why iran needs to be attacked ASAP. Rather than respond emotionally, as have so many here have done recently, I would like to see posters come up with point-by-point responses why Bolton's assessment is inaccurate.

washingtonpost.com

By John R. Bolton
Thursday, July 2, 2009
With Iran's hard-line mullahs and the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps unmistakably back in control, Israel's decision of whether to use military force against Tehran's nuclear weapons program is more urgent than ever.

Iran's nuclear threat was never in doubt during its presidential campaign, but the post-election resistance raised the possibility of some sort of regime change. That prospect seems lost for the near future or for at least as long as it will take Iran to finalize a deliverable nuclear weapons capability.

Accordingly, with no other timely option, the already compelling logic for an Israeli strike is nearly inexorable. Israel is undoubtedly ratcheting forward its decision-making process. President Obama is almost certainly not.

He still wants "engagement" (a particularly evocative term now) with Iran's current regime. Last Thursday, the State Department confirmed that Secretary Hillary Clinton spoke to her Russian and Chinese counterparts about "getting Iran back to negotiating on some of these concerns that the international community has." This is precisely the view of Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, reflected in the Group of Eight communique the next day. Sen. John Kerry thinks the recent election unpleasantness in Tehran will delay negotiations for only a few weeks.

Obama administration sources have opined (anonymously) that Iran will be more eager to negotiate than it was before its election in order to find "acceptance" by the "international community." Some leaks indicated that negotiations had to produce results by the U.N. General Assembly's opening in late September, while others projected that they had until the end of 2009 to show progress. These gauzy scenarios assume that the Tehran regime cares about "acceptance" or is somehow embarrassed by eliminating its enemies. Both propositions are dubious.

Obama will nonetheless attempt to jump-start bilateral negotiations with Iran, though time is running out even under the timetables leaked to the media. There are two problems with this approach. First, Tehran isn't going to negotiate in good faith. It hasn't for the past six years with the European Union as our surrogates, and it won't start now. As Clinton said on Tuesday, Iran has "a huge credibility gap" because of its electoral fraud. Second, given Iran's nuclear progress, even if the stronger sanctions Obama has threatened could be agreed upon, they would not prevent Iran from fabricating weapons and delivery systems when it chooses, as it has been striving to do for the past 20 years. Time is too short, and sanctions failed long ago.

Only those most theologically committed to negotiation still believe Iran will fully renounce its nuclear program. Unfortunately, the Obama administration has a "Plan B," which would allow Iran to have a "peaceful" civil nuclear power program while publicly "renouncing" the objective of nuclear weapons. Obama would define such an outcome as "success," even though in reality it would hardly be different from what Iran is doing and saying now. A "peaceful" uranium enrichment program, "peaceful" reactors such as Bushehr and "peaceful" heavy-water projects like that under construction at Arak leave Iran with an enormous breakout capability to produce nuclear weapons in very short order. And anyone who believes the Revolutionary Guard Corps will abandon its weaponization and ballistic missile programs probably believes that there was no fraud in Iran's June 12 election. See "huge credibility gap," supra.

In short, the stolen election and its tumultuous aftermath have dramatically highlighted the strategic and tactical flaws in Obama's game plan. With regime change off the table for the coming critical period in Iran's nuclear program, Israel's decision on using force is both easier and more urgent. Since there is no likelihood that diplomacy will start or finish in time, or even progress far enough to make any real difference, there is no point waiting for negotiations to play out. In fact, given the near certainty of Obama changing his definition of "success," negotiations represent an even more dangerous trap for Israel.

Those who oppose Iran acquiring nuclear weapons are left in the near term with only the option of targeted military force against its weapons facilities. Significantly, the uprising in Iran also makes it more likely that an effective public diplomacy campaign could be waged in the country to explain to Iranians that such an attack is directed against the regime, not against the Iranian people. This was always true, but it has become even more important to make this case emphatically, when the gulf between the Islamic revolution of 1979 and the citizens of Iran has never been clearer or wider. Military action against Iran's nuclear program and the ultimate goal of regime change can be worked together consistently.

Otherwise, be prepared for an Iran with nuclear weapons, which some, including Obama advisers, believe could be contained and deterred. That is not a hypothesis we should seek to test in the real world. The cost of error could be fatal.

The writer, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, was U.S. ambassador to the United Nations from August 2005 to December 2006 and is the author of "Surrender Is Not an Option: Defending America at the United Nations and Abroad."
 
I think a good time to attack Iran is 20 minutes after we attack North Korea. If we're going to mix it up, hey, let's get a bee in everybodys bonnet.
 
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Well this article rests on the false assumption that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, which we have no evidence for. So that is really the only refutation of the article that is necessary. If we start attacking nations based on a whim then we'll simply end up with another Iraq, and we don't have the money for another Iraq.
 
I dont think we are in a position to attack anyone right now.

Considering Obama's opinions and attitudes on the subject of Iran I dont even see how this idea is feasible.

The best chance of Iran getting attacked is by israel, or if they piss iraq off real bad...imagine the iraqi's using our training and equipment to attack Iran.

I mean Ahmedinijad already said we tried to do a soft overthrow of him in the last election, he will then claim we made the israelis or the iraqis do it becuase we are just that bad arsed of a country.

Since i'm new i have one disclaimer....i am full of sarcasm at times :D
 
The best chance of Iran getting attacked is by israel, or if they piss iraq off real bad...imagine the iraqi's using our training and equipment to attack Iran.
Iran with the backing of the U.S tried that in the 1980's

It turned into a huge disaster.

I think the outcome today would be just as bad or even worse

Ah i remember the Col Ollie North's trials.

Weren't we selling weaponst to both sides. The iran-contra scandal.
 
The best chance of Iran getting attacked is by israel, or if they piss iraq off real bad...imagine the iraqi's using our training and equipment to attack Iran.
Iran with the backing of the U.S tried that in the 1980's

It turned into a huge disaster.

I think the outcome today would be just as bad or even worse

Ah i remember the Col Ollie North's trials.

Weren't we selling weaponst to both sides. The iran-contra scandal.

We didn't sell weapons to Iraq, but when Iraq was losing badly, we did give them intelligence from our satellites and advice from our generals. When that turned the tide and Iraq was about to advance into Iran, we sold Iran weapons through Israel, of all places, in order to hold Saddam back. The US strategy was to maintain the balance of power in the Gulf region, and not to allow either Iraq or Iran to become dominant.
 
The best chance of Iran getting attacked is by israel, or if they piss iraq off real bad...imagine the iraqi's using our training and equipment to attack Iran.
Iran with the backing of the U.S tried that in the 1980's

It turned into a huge disaster.

I think the outcome today would be just as bad or even worse

Hey idiot ... if you have nothing to add to the conversation besides your fetish with rhodesscholar's ass, shut up and spare us, huh?

I'm not in the mood for your trolling ass, so fuck with me, huh?
 
Is the war only an option to every concern ?
From Japan to Vietnam to Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, war has been too much costly for U.S. .. And the outcome is zero and in return the US nation is paying for it.

I hope ending war in troubled areas, get the army back home and invest money into America which is currently spending on reshaping infrastructure of doomed countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
These three countries are like the worm who'll suck out all the money and outcome will be nothing but a head ache to US. ..
 
wow we are like the new Romans or Nazis...lets just attack all the sons oh bitches and get it over with
lets just put the whole shit house up in flames....you know for peace and security and freedom and all that rot
 
Here is a great article on why iran needs to be attacked ASAP. Rather than respond emotionally, as have so many here have done recently, I would like to see posters come up with point-by-point responses why Bolton's assessment is inaccurate.

washingtonpost.com

By John R. Bolton
Thursday, July 2, 2009
With Iran's hard-line mullahs and the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps unmistakably back in control, Israel's decision of whether to use military force against Tehran's nuclear weapons program is more urgent than ever.

Iran's nuclear threat was never in doubt during its presidential campaign, but the post-election resistance raised the possibility of some sort of regime change. That prospect seems lost for the near future or for at least as long as it will take Iran to finalize a deliverable nuclear weapons capability.

Accordingly, with no other timely option, the already compelling logic for an Israeli strike is nearly inexorable. Israel is undoubtedly ratcheting forward its decision-making process. President Obama is almost certainly not.

He still wants "engagement" (a particularly evocative term now) with Iran's current regime. Last Thursday, the State Department confirmed that Secretary Hillary Clinton spoke to her Russian and Chinese counterparts about "getting Iran back to negotiating on some of these concerns that the international community has." This is precisely the view of Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, reflected in the Group of Eight communique the next day. Sen. John Kerry thinks the recent election unpleasantness in Tehran will delay negotiations for only a few weeks.

Obama administration sources have opined (anonymously) that Iran will be more eager to negotiate than it was before its election in order to find "acceptance" by the "international community." Some leaks indicated that negotiations had to produce results by the U.N. General Assembly's opening in late September, while others projected that they had until the end of 2009 to show progress. These gauzy scenarios assume that the Tehran regime cares about "acceptance" or is somehow embarrassed by eliminating its enemies. Both propositions are dubious.

Obama will nonetheless attempt to jump-start bilateral negotiations with Iran, though time is running out even under the timetables leaked to the media. There are two problems with this approach. First, Tehran isn't going to negotiate in good faith. It hasn't for the past six years with the European Union as our surrogates, and it won't start now. As Clinton said on Tuesday, Iran has "a huge credibility gap" because of its electoral fraud. Second, given Iran's nuclear progress, even if the stronger sanctions Obama has threatened could be agreed upon, they would not prevent Iran from fabricating weapons and delivery systems when it chooses, as it has been striving to do for the past 20 years. Time is too short, and sanctions failed long ago.

Only those most theologically committed to negotiation still believe Iran will fully renounce its nuclear program. Unfortunately, the Obama administration has a "Plan B," which would allow Iran to have a "peaceful" civil nuclear power program while publicly "renouncing" the objective of nuclear weapons. Obama would define such an outcome as "success," even though in reality it would hardly be different from what Iran is doing and saying now. A "peaceful" uranium enrichment program, "peaceful" reactors such as Bushehr and "peaceful" heavy-water projects like that under construction at Arak leave Iran with an enormous breakout capability to produce nuclear weapons in very short order. And anyone who believes the Revolutionary Guard Corps will abandon its weaponization and ballistic missile programs probably believes that there was no fraud in Iran's June 12 election. See "huge credibility gap," supra.

In short, the stolen election and its tumultuous aftermath have dramatically highlighted the strategic and tactical flaws in Obama's game plan. With regime change off the table for the coming critical period in Iran's nuclear program, Israel's decision on using force is both easier and more urgent. Since there is no likelihood that diplomacy will start or finish in time, or even progress far enough to make any real difference, there is no point waiting for negotiations to play out. In fact, given the near certainty of Obama changing his definition of "success," negotiations represent an even more dangerous trap for Israel.

Those who oppose Iran acquiring nuclear weapons are left in the near term with only the option of targeted military force against its weapons facilities. Significantly, the uprising in Iran also makes it more likely that an effective public diplomacy campaign could be waged in the country to explain to Iranians that such an attack is directed against the regime, not against the Iranian people. This was always true, but it has become even more important to make this case emphatically, when the gulf between the Islamic revolution of 1979 and the citizens of Iran has never been clearer or wider. Military action against Iran's nuclear program and the ultimate goal of regime change can be worked together consistently.

Otherwise, be prepared for an Iran with nuclear weapons, which some, including Obama advisers, believe could be contained and deterred. That is not a hypothesis we should seek to test in the real world. The cost of error could be fatal.

The writer, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, was U.S. ambassador to the United Nations from August 2005 to December 2006 and is the author of "Surrender Is Not an Option: Defending America at the United Nations and Abroad."

Theres nothing that unites a country like a foreign invsaion/bombing campaign.

Seriously...which politician do you hate the most. If Iran decided to bomb the US to get rid of them, would you support them in that endeavor? Or would you rally around the politician you hated?
 
Well this article rests on the false assumption that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, which we have no evidence for. So that is really the only refutation of the article that is necessary. If we start attacking nations based on a whim then we'll simply end up with another Iraq, and we don't have the money for another Iraq.

While I don't agree that we should attack Iran or conduct regime change by force, I see no advantage to keeping one's head firmly planted in the sand. Your comment just smacks of isolationism. Although the neo-con extreme is bad, the isolationist extreme is just as bad.
 
Well this article rests on the false assumption that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, which we have no evidence for. So that is really the only refutation of the article that is necessary. If we start attacking nations based on a whim then we'll simply end up with another Iraq, and we don't have the money for another Iraq.

While I don't agree that we should attack Iran or conduct regime change by force, I see no advantage to keeping one's head firmly planted in the sand. Your comment just smacks of isolationism. Although the neo-con extreme is bad, the isolationist extreme is just as bad.

I don't support isolationism, I support non-interventionism. I support trading and being friendly with nations, but I do not support conducting regime changes, spreading Democracy at the point of a gun, policing the world, nation building, military aid, financial aid, or sending American troops where they have no business being. I also don't support telling nations what they can or can't do regarding their own affairs, such as what we're trying to do with Iran. We have no right to tell them they can't develop nuclear energy and no evidence they're building nuclear weapons. All I'm seeing is the same propagandistic nonsense we saw before the Iraq war and we cannot afford to make the same mistake again.
 
Well this article rests on the false assumption that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, which we have no evidence for. So that is really the only refutation of the article that is necessary. If we start attacking nations based on a whim then we'll simply end up with another Iraq, and we don't have the money for another Iraq.

While I don't agree that we should attack Iran or conduct regime change by force, I see no advantage to keeping one's head firmly planted in the sand. Your comment just smacks of isolationism. Although the neo-con extreme is bad, the isolationist extreme is just as bad.

I don't support isolationism, I support non-interventionism. I support trading and being friendly with nations, but I do not support conducting regime changes, spreading Democracy at the point of a gun, policing the world, nation building, military aid, financial aid, or sending American troops where they have no business being. I also don't support telling nations what they can or can't do regarding their own affairs, such as what we're trying to do with Iran. We have no right to tell them they can't develop nuclear energy and no evidence they're building nuclear weapons. All I'm seeing is the same propagandistic nonsense we saw before the Iraq war and we cannot afford to make the same mistake again.

Basically you're anti-wilsonian.
 
Well this article rests on the false assumption that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, which we have no evidence for. So that is really the only refutation of the article that is necessary. If we start attacking nations based on a whim then we'll simply end up with another Iraq, and we don't have the money for another Iraq.

While I don't agree that we should attack Iran or conduct regime change by force, I see no advantage to keeping one's head firmly planted in the sand. Your comment just smacks of isolationism. Although the neo-con extreme is bad, the isolationist extreme is just as bad.

I don't support isolationism, I support non-interventionism. I support trading and being friendly with nations, but I do not support conducting regime changes, spreading Democracy at the point of a gun, policing the world, nation building, military aid, financial aid, or sending American troops where they have no business being. I also don't support telling nations what they can or can't do regarding their own affairs, such as what we're trying to do with Iran. We have no right to tell them they can't develop nuclear energy and no evidence they're building nuclear weapons. All I'm seeing is the same propagandistic nonsense we saw before the Iraq war and we cannot afford to make the same mistake again.

I don't see a ramp up toward war with Iran. I haven't had occasion in the last 7 years to even once think we would attack Iran.

But, you do bring up the fundemental disagreement I have with the Libertarian folks. I think that it is naive to believe that in this day and age we can send our corporations out to trade on the world stage and expect they will succeed in the face of foreign government intervention to the contrary etc if the US government remains neutral in the world. Second, the US is under constant attack by all sorts of actors, "friends" and enemies attempting to penetrate our processes. You can look at the Israeli spies we've busted over the last 20 years. You can look at the various Chinese affairs. You can look at the Cuban spies. The list goes on.

I'm not sure that in the face of all of these on-going attacks and trade manipulations that the appropriate move for the US government is withdrawal from competition. If we do, we will pay for it shortly.
 

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