Time for all of us to just say it, the US is finished

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

No one said anything about leaving. Even if the government collapses completely, something will fill the void.

The government isn't going to collapse, in spite of the butthurt fantasies of teapartiers. This country has weathered far worse than what we currently are dealing with, and a good U.S. history class would give you a better basis in avoiding these kinds of chicken little overreactions.

The U.S. is changing, as it has done continuously for the past almost 300 years. What the majority of people in this country want this country to be may not match your desires, but that doesn't mean that their vision is broken or wrong or doomed.

Unfortunately, a constitutional republic is unable to please all of the people all of the time. It's your turn to be displeased. Welcome to my world from 2000-2008.


True, but I was speaking more of our run at the top being over, not saying that the USG was going to collapse completely. If I truly thought that was a possibility I probably would consider leaving. Who wants to live where there is NO government?
 
Yes, the United States is finished. As Arthur Toynbee said, all great nations commit suicide.
 
No one said anything about leaving. Even if the government collapses completely, something will fill the void.

The government isn't going to collapse, in spite of the butthurt fantasies of teapartiers. This country has weathered far worse than what we currently are dealing with, and a good U.S. history class would give you a better basis in avoiding these kinds of chicken little overreactions.

The U.S. is changing, as it has done continuously for the past almost 300 years. What the majority of people in this country want this country to be may not match your desires, but that doesn't mean that their vision is broken or wrong or doomed.

Unfortunately, a constitutional republic is unable to please all of the people all of the time. It's your turn to be displeased. Welcome to my world from 2000-2008.


True, but I was speaking more of our run at the top being over, not saying that the USG was going to collapse completely. If I truly thought that was a possibility I probably would consider leaving. Who wants to live where there is NO government?

I'd say that the jury is still out on this. It will be hard for us to continue to economically dominate China forever. They have almost unlimited low wage laborers and don't care how much they pollute or violate human rights.

On the flip side, we could probably maintain dominance longer if we were more protective of our intellectual property rights, less naive about their intentions, and were more proactively engaged in creating a highly skilled, highly educated technological workforce.

The republicans give lip service to this but apparently don't like to fund schools or universities.
 
The government isn't going to collapse, in spite of the butthurt fantasies of teapartiers. This country has weathered far worse than what we currently are dealing with, and a good U.S. history class would give you a better basis in avoiding these kinds of chicken little overreactions.

The U.S. is changing, as it has done continuously for the past almost 300 years. What the majority of people in this country want this country to be may not match your desires, but that doesn't mean that their vision is broken or wrong or doomed.

Unfortunately, a constitutional republic is unable to please all of the people all of the time. It's your turn to be displeased. Welcome to my world from 2000-2008.


True, but I was speaking more of our run at the top being over, not saying that the USG was going to collapse completely. If I truly thought that was a possibility I probably would consider leaving. Who wants to live where there is NO government?

I'd say that the jury is still out on this. It will be hard for us to continue to economically dominate China forever. They have almost unlimited low wage laborers and don't care how much they pollute or violate human rights.

On the flip side, we could probably maintain dominance longer if we were more protective of our intellectual property rights, less naive about their intentions, and were more proactively engaged in creating a highly skilled, highly educated technological workforce.

The republicans give lip service to this but apparently don't like to fund schools or universities.

For the most part, I agree with you. The school system needs an entire overhaul, IMO. We keep funding the schools more and more and it doesn't help with the educational outcome. Something is broken and no politician wants to fix it.
 
True, but I was speaking more of our run at the top being over, not saying that the USG was going to collapse completely. If I truly thought that was a possibility I probably would consider leaving. Who wants to live where there is NO government?

I'd say that the jury is still out on this. It will be hard for us to continue to economically dominate China forever. They have almost unlimited low wage laborers and don't care how much they pollute or violate human rights.

On the flip side, we could probably maintain dominance longer if we were more protective of our intellectual property rights, less naive about their intentions, and were more proactively engaged in creating a highly skilled, highly educated technological workforce.

The republicans give lip service to this but apparently don't like to fund schools or universities.

For the most part, I agree with you. The school system needs an entire overhaul, IMO. We keep funding the schools more and more and it doesn't help with the educational outcome. Something is broken and no politician wants to fix it.


Oh, no doubt the schools share some blame , but at the core we have to blame the American people.

It is THEY who have led the decline. How can a school educate anyone without the ability to enforce their rules to ensure some aren't disrupting the process, just for starters.

Yet, what happens if a kid is suspended or expelled, or heaven forbid, paddled? The parents scream bloody murder..

Back in my day the teachers were encouraged to whoop that ass if a student deserved it, and not only that the kid got another one when they got home.

But today we have parents hurling obscenities at cops who pull them over for speeding teaching children by example that authority is irrelevant and that the only thing that matters is what each person wants at the moment.
 
Maybe. Maybe not. Times change, and so does society. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much. All the depressing stuff going on now, it won't last, it never does. Anybody here old enough to remember the 60s, anti-establishment, counter culture, make love not war? People thought then the world was going to hell, but times changed. People worried about global war and annihilation, didn't happen. We had the rat race, then we didn't. We had people living far beyond their means, now we don't, although many would like to. Used to be everyone was expected to pull their weight, now not so much. But it'll change, maybe we need to go through another bad depression like the 1930s or worse to change attitudes and values. Maybe we'll have to go through it more than once.

I wish we weren't giving future generations such a mess to clean up; we're making it hard on them, and we're still going in the wrong direction IMHO. But America pulled itself out of a terrible depression and a really bad war and a really big debt once before. It can be done, and I think will eventually.

That's the point though my friend. We don't have the group of Americans they had.

Today's American is more concerned with insulting other people, and being "right" than with actually fixing anything.


Sure, but 15 or 20 years from now we'll have a whole bunch of young people entering the workforce and voting, and another bunch of old people checking out. I'm saying the national psyche WILL change, one way or another. Hopefully towards a more responsible society than what we have now. Maybe it'll take longer than that, maybe attitudes and values will shift the other way. Maybe we'll go down the tubes and a revolution occurs, who knows. Point is, America can be great again, if we restore our institutions to what they once were. It ain't set in stone one way or another.
 
Maybe. Maybe not. Times change, and so does society. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much. All the depressing stuff going on now, it won't last, it never does. Anybody here old enough to remember the 60s, anti-establishment, counter culture, make love not war? People thought then the world was going to hell, but times changed. People worried about global war and annihilation, didn't happen. We had the rat race, then we didn't. We had people living far beyond their means, now we don't, although many would like to. Used to be everyone was expected to pull their weight, now not so much. But it'll change, maybe we need to go through another bad depression like the 1930s or worse to change attitudes and values. Maybe we'll have to go through it more than once.

I wish we weren't giving future generations such a mess to clean up; we're making it hard on them, and we're still going in the wrong direction IMHO. But America pulled itself out of a terrible depression and a really bad war and a really big debt once before. It can be done, and I think will eventually.

That's the point though my friend. We don't have the group of Americans they had.

Today's American is more concerned with insulting other people, and being "right" than with actually fixing anything.


Sure, but 15 or 20 years from now we'll have a whole bunch of young people entering the workforce and voting, and another bunch of old people checking out. I'm saying the national psyche WILL change, one way or another. Hopefully towards a more responsible society than what we have now. Maybe it'll take longer than that, maybe attitudes and values will shift the other way. Maybe we'll go down the tubes and a revolution occurs, who knows. Point is, America can be great again, if we restore our institutions to what they once were. It ain't set in stone one way or another.

I fear we're too late.

I really blame Vietnam, a lot of quality young men , and not to discount women that were lost over there in smaller numbers, were lost or if not lost , destroyed in that war.

I think the combination led America to miss out on a critical group of Americans who could have strengthened this nation or at least kept it from disintegrating.

Honestly it just seems that most people you see and talk to out there are lets just say it, worthless. Oh sure some of them have jobs, and some of them even have well paying jobs that's not the kind of worthless I'm talking about.

I'm talking about people who are selfish, mean, rude, arrogant, and just downright nasty people.

We can't even get our politicians , who are supposed to be the leaders of this country, to sit down and have a rational discussion about what we can do to keep from going bankrupt. Do you ever watch C Span? Sometimes I wonder if were watching C Span or the Nature Network.

Or possibly the Baby Network.

And why should politicians strive to be any better, when the voter who they trying to appeal to is more likely to scream something like "fuck you moron motherfucker you want people to be laze and suck on government tit you faggot" then they are to say " sir, surely you must agree that we can't sustain a system where 50% of the people are footing 100% of the bill"

or something along those lines.

I hope everyone realizes I wasn't cursing at anyone in this thread. That wasn't the purpose, and the rules as I have read them state that cursing is permissable as long as you aren't cursing AT someone.
 
The United States will continue simply because we have to call the landmass something. It just won't be in its present form. It already is no longer a beacon of freedom and opportunity. It's finding its way as a socialist state.
 
I'd say that the jury is still out on this. It will be hard for us to continue to economically dominate China forever. They have almost unlimited low wage laborers and don't care how much they pollute or violate human rights.

On the flip side, we could probably maintain dominance longer if we were more protective of our intellectual property rights, less naive about their intentions, and were more proactively engaged in creating a highly skilled, highly educated technological workforce.

The republicans give lip service to this but apparently don't like to fund schools or universities.

For the most part, I agree with you. The school system needs an entire overhaul, IMO. We keep funding the schools more and more and it doesn't help with the educational outcome. Something is broken and no politician wants to fix it.


Oh, no doubt the schools share some blame , but at the core we have to blame the American people.

It is THEY who have led the decline. How can a school educate anyone without the ability to enforce their rules to ensure some aren't disrupting the process, just for starters.

Yet, what happens if a kid is suspended or expelled, or heaven forbid, paddled? The parents scream bloody murder..

Back in my day the teachers were encouraged to whoop that ass if a student deserved it, and not only that the kid got another one when they got home.

But today we have parents hurling obscenities at cops who pull them over for speeding teaching children by example that authority is irrelevant and that the only thing that matters is what each person wants at the moment.

The parents have expected the school system to raise their children for them and the results have been nothing short of disasterous. I am fully in agreement with your stating who is to blame. The American people. Yes.

It is us who have failed here to do our duty as parents, as citizens, as defenders of true, liberty, justice and have become far too complacent in every aspect of life. It seems to me the american people have become spectators rather than realizing their collective responsibility to keep this great nation on the course our founding fathers established for us!

The wisdom of our founding fathers is truly remarkable. There is nothing wrong with our Constitution or our bill of rights. What is wrong is our failure to teach our children these documents and the meaning and importance of understanding what America was founded upon and why! Those who teach our children and influence our children have the control to the future of America.

I don't believe the American people truly understand what living under a Communist nation such as North Korea would be like. The word communist / marxist / socialist has somehow become cool and fashionable in America because it denotes a government free of the restraints of the ten commandments, the bible, any religious influence perhaps? I cannot say for certain what has led them to such an idea.


We cannot blame one person, one individual or group or even political party for what has become of America! It is far greater than that. But what we can do is examine these claims about Karl Marx and meet the real Karl Marx few have yet to realize! After all isn't that what is being touted as the "change" America needs? The new America - the progressive move to something better? Better? Let us examine what "better" looks like first, shall we?


Karl Marx was a Jew who converted to Christianity and later to Satanism. He was a high priest that led black masses and his own son addressed him as Dear Devil in his letters which a missionary I support had gathered and proven Marx was invoved in!

His grave at Highgate Cemetary in Europe is a regular meeting sight to this very day for satanists who believe they can obtain powers by visiting his grave.

All satanists have one thing in common. They have lives ravaged personal lives and Marx is a perfect example of it. Arnold Kunzli wrote a book, Karl Marx - A Phycho-gram, and writes about Marx's life, including the suicide of two daughters and a son-in-law. Three children died of malnutrition. His daughter Laura, married to a Socialist Lafargue, also buried her three children, then she and her husband commited suicide together!

Another daughter of Karl Marx, Eleanor, decided with her husband to commit suicide. She died and he backed out at the last minute. Karl Marx felt no obligation to provide for his own family by earning a living. He could have easily done so as he had a tremendous knowledge of languages. But he chose to live his life as a parasite begging off of Engels.

He had an illegitimate child by his maidservant, Helen Duluth. He nicknamed her "Tussy". He drank heavily and was a drunk. Riazanov, director of the Marx - Engels Institute in Moscow, admits this fact in his book Karl Marx, Man, Thinker and Revolutionist. "Tussy" was Karl Marx's favorite daughter. When she learned of the scandal of illegitimacy from his friend, Engels, she took her own life therein becoming yet another of his children who took their own life.

To expose him for the hypocrite he truly was one must look at his railing against Capitolists in his "Communist Manifesto" when he says "having the wives and daughters of their proletarians at their disposal. As an adulterer himself this was the height of hypocrisy, was it not?

Such hypocrisy was not at all out of character for Karl Marx. Nor is it out of character for his followers today! Stalin said that no one knew the real Karl Marx and by this he meant they didn't have a clue as to Marx's involvment in satanism ( Stalin was also a satanist ) and didn't know how artfully deceptive Marx could be!

As to his ethics and integrity? He didn't have any! Marx lusted after other peoples money. Mainly through inheritance. There are documented letters in his own handwriting to Engels ( his friend ) telling him how he could not wait until the dog died so that he could be out of his financial troubles ( which were never ending ) and who was this dog? In a letter of March 8, 1855 he makes clear it is his wifes 90 yr old uncle. His wife will receive the money and he cannot wait to get his greedy hands on it!

In 1863 Karl Marx wrote to Engels that his own mother had died and it was about time as fate needed to take her! Why?? He was out of money! This was all he had to say about his own mothers passing.

As for his wife? She didn't fair any better. He didn't attend either of their funerals! Imagine a man who didn't even attend the funeral of his own mother! All he wanted was the money and couldn't wait to see her go. Yes. This is the heart of Karl Marx. Black as pitch.

Yet look at the way he is presented in our schools, our colleges, our universities! All of this information is available through careful research but it would not benefit a Marxist professor to tell of this side of the man. The true nature of the man. And therein it has been hidden well from the History books and lessons inside the Universities and colleges of America. Just one more reason we have failed as a nation. We did not recognize the enemy within our gates. - Jeremiah
 
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Any? Also one tiny off topic question as I am new here? What is a neg? Thanks.

A neg is when someone has subtracted from your rep points, ostensibly because they feel you violated some code of posting ethics or such.

But more often it's because they lack the tools to effectively debate and so lash out with their "negs" LOL
 
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Any? Also one tiny off topic question as I am new here? What is a neg? Thanks.

A neg is when someone has subtracted from your rep points, ostensibly because they feel you violated some code of posting ethics or such.

But more often it's because they lack the tools to effectively debate and so lash out with their "negs" LOL

So that is what that box is with the arrows up and down? So if I like a thread someone started or a post I should click the plus sign and that raises the rep points? That is how that works? I didn't know that! Thank you! Good gosh! I was wondering what that number and the stars was all about! lol.... - Jeremiah
 
If you check the instructions that came with the Founding, they said if it ever gets this bad hit Ctl Alt Del twice and reboot the whole system
 
Jeremiah, you quoted William Penn earlier. Here are some more words of his, which I think are good advice in this situation:

So let us try what love will do,
Force and anger may subdue.
Violence, hatred - both are sins.
And he who forgives first, wins.
 
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Any? Also one tiny off topic question as I am new here? What is a neg? Thanks.

A neg is when someone has subtracted from your rep points, ostensibly because they feel you violated some code of posting ethics or such.

But more often it's because they lack the tools to effectively debate and so lash out with their "negs" LOL

I think that's a woefully incomplete description, which also appears to be biased against posters who ever neg. Opinions vary, of course.
 
That's the point though my friend. We don't have the group of Americans they had.

Today's American is more concerned with insulting other people, and being "right" than with actually fixing anything.


Sure, but 15 or 20 years from now we'll have a whole bunch of young people entering the workforce and voting, and another bunch of old people checking out. I'm saying the national psyche WILL change, one way or another. Hopefully towards a more responsible society than what we have now. Maybe it'll take longer than that, maybe attitudes and values will shift the other way. Maybe we'll go down the tubes and a revolution occurs, who knows. Point is, America can be great again, if we restore our institutions to what they once were. It ain't set in stone one way or another.

I fear we're too late.

I really blame Vietnam, a lot of quality young men , and not to discount women that were lost over there in smaller numbers, were lost or if not lost , destroyed in that war.

I think the combination led America to miss out on a critical group of Americans who could have strengthened this nation or at least kept it from disintegrating.

Honestly it just seems that most people you see and talk to out there are lets just say it, worthless. Oh sure some of them have jobs, and some of them even have well paying jobs that's not the kind of worthless I'm talking about.

I'm talking about people who are selfish, mean, rude, arrogant, and just downright nasty people.

We can't even get our politicians , who are supposed to be the leaders of this country, to sit down and have a rational discussion about what we can do to keep from going bankrupt. Do you ever watch C Span? Sometimes I wonder if were watching C Span or the Nature Network.

Or possibly the Baby Network.

And why should politicians strive to be any better, when the voter who they trying to appeal to is more likely to scream something like "fuck you moron motherfucker you want people to be laze and suck on government tit you faggot" then they are to say " sir, surely you must agree that we can't sustain a system where 50% of the people are footing 100% of the bill"

or something along those lines.

I hope everyone realizes I wasn't cursing at anyone in this thread. That wasn't the purpose, and the rules as I have read them state that cursing is permissable as long as you aren't cursing AT someone.

I appreciate what you're saying but I feel that Vietnam was but one tragic event in a long list during the sixties and seventies. So many things one after the other that we were never able to recover our faith in ourselves, our beliefs and our leaders.

- JFK assassination
- Jack Ruby killing Oswald
- Troop surge in Vietnam (not many understood why we were there)
- Bobby Kennedy's death
- MLK's assassination
- Watergate
- The fall of Saigon

Like a boxer, I see it as a series of body blows being delivered, with the fall of Saigon, the head shot that left us punch drunk. With too many questions and not enough answers, cynicism and apathy took hold. Every minor (and major) scandal that followed only fed our suspicion that our system was broken and that it's increasingly everyone for themselves. Along the way we lost notions of respect and responsibility. The idea of contribution or sacrifice was ridiculed.

And here we are today. A once great country now run by bottom-feeders. Put an R or a D after their name and it makes no difference. We have a president that is both inexperienced and incompetent and not fit to hold this high office.

The cynics see this administration as an opportunity to take advantage of a corrupt system, and what believers that still exist, another scandal and a last nail in our collective coffin.

Unless we can bring back values like responsibility and a willingness to sacrifice......that will pretty much be all she wrote.
 
If you check the instructions that came with the Founding, they said if it ever gets this bad hit Ctl Alt Del twice and reboot the whole system

The problem with going that route is there are some whack jobs out there who would take that to literally mean "go kill people who disagree with you"

That isn't necessary into today's world. We could reboot from the voting booth without ever even looking at a gun.

But that isn't likely to happen because of the idiotic average voter " vote the bums out " they yell as they go and reelect THEIR bum.

That gets back to selfishness , laziness, and greed. Not to mention stupidity.

People are find with their representatives being stupid, lazy, incompetent , whatever as long as they shout out the occasional idea that agrees with THEM. But even the slightest bit of error in judgement from "the other side" and look out.

As an example, let me ask you. How does any Congressmen keep their job after being caught doing something like say watching porn during a hearing?

I mean come on, who gives a crap which party that scumbag is from, fire his ass and move on. I guarantee you that if enough congressmen who are not about the peoples' business are replaced, more will start acting correctly.

But if we don't even hold our leaders responsible I guess we can sit back and not take any responsibility ourselves either............


I gotta say to on another note, I love actually being able to have a civil , adult discussion on something that is so very important.

Kudos to everyone who is taking part.
 
For the most part, I agree with you. The school system needs an entire overhaul, IMO. We keep funding the schools more and more and it doesn't help with the educational outcome. Something is broken and no politician wants to fix it.

I don't disagree, at all. I've worked with some of the most broken school districts in the U.S. because they also tend to serve the most high-risk, gang-involved populations.
 
Maybe. Maybe not. Times change, and so does society. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much. All the depressing stuff going on now, it won't last, it never does. Anybody here old enough to remember the 60s, anti-establishment, counter culture, make love not war? People thought then the world was going to hell, but times changed. People worried about global war and annihilation, didn't happen. We had the rat race, then we didn't. We had people living far beyond their means, now we don't, although many would like to. Used to be everyone was expected to pull their weight, now not so much. But it'll change, maybe we need to go through another bad depression like the 1930s or worse to change attitudes and values. Maybe we'll have to go through it more than once.

I wish we weren't giving future generations such a mess to clean up; we're making it hard on them, and we're still going in the wrong direction IMHO. But America pulled itself out of a terrible depression and a really bad war and a really big debt once before. It can be done, and I think will eventually.

I would agree only in that , that biggest of reset buttons would have to be pushed, by that I mean a cataclysm so overwhelming there would be a true paradigm shift.


Aside from a world war, I don't see that happening, our debt is almost mathematically impossible to solve even in a generation and I am not sure our and societal issues as they exist now, will allow whats needed....*shrugs*
 
Maybe. Maybe not. Times change, and so does society. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much. All the depressing stuff going on now, it won't last, it never does. Anybody here old enough to remember the 60s, anti-establishment, counter culture, make love not war? People thought then the world was going to hell, but times changed. People worried about global war and annihilation, didn't happen. We had the rat race, then we didn't. We had people living far beyond their means, now we don't, although many would like to. Used to be everyone was expected to pull their weight, now not so much. But it'll change, maybe we need to go through another bad depression like the 1930s or worse to change attitudes and values. Maybe we'll have to go through it more than once.

I wish we weren't giving future generations such a mess to clean up; we're making it hard on them, and we're still going in the wrong direction IMHO. But America pulled itself out of a terrible depression and a really bad war and a really big debt once before. It can be done, and I think will eventually.

I would agree only in that , that biggest of reset buttons would have to be pushed, by that I mean a cataclysm so overwhelming there would be a true paradigm shift.


Aside from a world war, I don't see that happening, our debt is almost mathematically impossible to solve even in a generation and I am not sure our and societal issues as they exist now, will allow whats needed....*shrugs*

I suppose that lead us full circle. Which came first. Americans not caring which led to where we are? or did things become so bad that eventually American quit caring?
 

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