Throwing in the towel

[Turboswede]

After posting a few things to the forum I am thinking about throwing in the towel. I was a Political science / econ double major in school and an avid debater so I was into the whole politics thing. After school I drifted away from politics and focused on my family and career development (my wife hates politics).

I started paying attention again after 9/11, as I was living in NY at the time it was hard to ignore. As time wore on and we managed to squander all of the good will we had garnered in the world frustration tuned me away from politics again.

With the pending elections and the market crash I became interested in political discourse again so this forum was an obvious place to turn. The difficulty in trying to talk people into voting for their own best interest is so exhausting, especially when I vote consistently against my own interest for the sake of the nation. Here are some of the things that have just worn me down:

Abortion
I am past the stage in my life where this would be an issue for my wife and I and I fully intend to have our family doctor prescribe birth control to my daughter when she enters puberty, I will also be sure to provide my son with discreet access to condoms at a young age. It will not impact my family if the Right eliminate legal abortion and I don’t see them eliminating birth control in the near future. Same goes for sex education. My children will get clinical lectures on the subject from the time they are about 6 so why care if it is banned from public school, besides with the cuts to social programs I won’t be paying to support all those teen mothers.

Taxes
Why do I support candidates that will raise my taxes? As I move into a life stage where I can benefit from the SSA cap, the Cap Gains rate on dividends, mortgage deductions, education tax credits and the upper income tax brackets it does not make any sense for me to support Obama. 8 out of 10 Americans don’t want to tax the wealthy as they will not want to be taxed when they become wealthy, even though the odds say that they will never reach that level. Why should I want to dispel that myth?

National Debt
Why do I care, I can just invest in foreign markets and protect my savings from the ever deflating value of the dollar and as all my debt is fixed, higher interest rates are beneficial to me. Besides, if the domestic financial industry collapses we will just bail it out again.

Defense
It’s a volunteer army so my kids won’t be forced to go to war and shares of United Defense and Boeing are on the rise, and would really take off if we just eliminated all those labor unions.

Religion
If it becomes a requirement I suppose I could give up my Sundays to the local Anglican parish

Guns
Don’t really care one way or the other, maybe I should get armed just in case society does break down.

Social Security
I have a good defined benefit plan, an SERP and a good 401(k); I will not need the SSA so why should I pay for them.

Medicare
My SERP provides retiree health benefits so this isn’t my problem either.

Medicaid
I have health insurance, why should I care if poor kids get any healthcare at all.

Education
My wife is a SHAM so we could home school or pay for private school. As the money I spend on public schools does not benefit me directly, I should be against the whole concept of public education.

Outsourcing:
My position will not be outsourced so why should I care?

Organized Labor:
Why should I care if the US labor movement tanks? I am just tired of trying to convince bus drivers that they would not make $80K per year without a union. If they want to make $11 per hour, I am not going to try and stop them.

Guilt:
Why should I feel any guilt in helping people take maximum financial advantage from the tax “loopholes” the wealthy bake into the tax code? To save a lot of time and trouble we could just not tax capital gains and then the wealthy could really spur investment and completely avoid taxation. I can stop debating internally about if it’s right or wrong to get an $11m payment for a CFO who helped drive his company into the ground.

It’s just so much easier to stop fighting and accept that people do not act rationally so there is no point in arguing with them.

 

[Truthmatters]

I will never give up.

Democracy is not easy its just the best.

 

[Larkinn]

People don't act rationally in the aggregate, but there are highly intelligent people in this world. I suggest if you want to talk politics intelligently, don't go to a politics board. The best political discussions I have had (online) have been with people who aren't obsessed with politics. Intellectual people are generally informed about a whole host of issues (including politics), but don't have the narrow dogmatic focus you see from the majority of posters here, and on other politics boards.

I talk politics because I enjoy it. I enjoy theorizing about problems and coming up with complicated solutions and reading writers who have thought more about the issues, and are more intelligent than I am. Why I come here? Pure mindless amusement. But don't confuse the highly intellectual, complicated, and often very rewarding discussion of politics with what happens on these boards.

 

[strollingbones]

no one likes a quitter...you got a spine figure out why.

 

[Mad Scientist]

It’s just so much easier to stop fighting and accept that people do not act rationally so there is no point in arguing with them.

That's the problem right there, you are never going to win an online argument. The only thing you can do is make your points and leave it at that.
The lurkers will read what you say and form an opinion. That's who you should be focused on.

 

[GigiBowman]

Don't leave, I understand how you feel.....but don't grow cynical and old alone....there are plenty of us here.

Did someone say Talk politics with non-political people?? Ohhh I've done that....and all those non-political people suddenly found Politics because Oprah told them to......it's like hitting your head against a brick wall.

Waaaaay better off here!

You people are lovely!

 

[manifold]

Jesus Christ dude, there's better ways to get attention than whining like a pussy. Go check a few of my threads if you're looking for pointers.

 

[Turboswede]

Jesus Christ dude, there's better ways to get attention than whining like a pussy. Go check a few of my threads if you're looking for pointers.

I am a lefty, I like whining like a pussy, its what we do.

I think my moment of weekness has passed, I am just going to stop talking about taxes for a while.

 

[manifold]

I am a lefty, I like whining like a pussy, its what we do.

I think my moment of weekness has passed, I am just going to stop talking about taxes for a while.

Glad to hear it.

 

[Vintij]

After posting a few things to the forum I am thinking about throwing in the towel. I was a Political science / econ double major in school and an avid debater so I was into the whole politics thing. After school I drifted away from politics and focused on my family and career development (my wife hates politics).

I started paying attention again after 9/11, as I was living in NY at the time it was hard to ignore. As time wore on and we managed to squander all of the good will we had garnered in the world frustration tuned me away from politics again.

With the pending elections and the market crash I became interested in political discourse again so this forum was an obvious place to turn. The difficulty in trying to talk people into voting for their own best interest is so exhausting, especially when I vote consistently against my own interest for the sake of the nation. Here are some of the things that have just worn me down:

Abortion
I am past the stage in my life where this would be an issue for my wife and I and I fully intend to have our family doctor prescribe birth control to my daughter when she enters puberty, I will also be sure to provide my son with discreet access to condoms at a young age. It will not impact my family if the Right eliminate legal abortion and I don’t see them eliminating birth control in the near future. Same goes for sex education. My children will get clinical lectures on the subject from the time they are about 6 so why care if it is banned from public school, besides with the cuts to social programs I won’t be paying to support all those teen mothers.

Taxes
Why do I support candidates that will raise my taxes? As I move into a life stage where I can benefit from the SSA cap, the Cap Gains rate on dividends, mortgage deductions, education tax credits and the upper income tax brackets it does not make any sense for me to support Obama. 8 out of 10 Americans don’t want to tax the wealthy as they will not want to be taxed when they become wealthy, even though the odds say that they will never reach that level. Why should I want to dispel that myth?

National Debt
Why do I care, I can just invest in foreign markets and protect my savings from the ever deflating value of the dollar and as all my debt is fixed, higher interest rates are beneficial to me. Besides, if the domestic financial industry collapses we will just bail it out again.

Defense
It’s a volunteer army so my kids won’t be forced to go to war and shares of United Defense and Boeing are on the rise, and would really take off if we just eliminated all those labor unions.

Religion
If it becomes a requirement I suppose I could give up my Sundays to the local Anglican parish

Guns
Don’t really care one way or the other, maybe I should get armed just in case society does break down.

Social Security
I have a good defined benefit plan, an SERP and a good 401(k); I will not need the SSA so why should I pay for them.

Medicare
My SERP provides retiree health benefits so this isn’t my problem either.

Medicaid
I have health insurance, why should I care if poor kids get any healthcare at all.

Education
My wife is a SHAM so we could home school or pay for private school. As the money I spend on public schools does not benefit me directly, I should be against the whole concept of public education.

Outsourcing:
My position will not be outsourced so why should I care?

Organized Labor:
Why should I care if the US labor movement tanks? I am just tired of trying to convince bus drivers that they would not make $80K per year without a union. If they want to make $11 per hour, I am not going to try and stop them.

Guilt:
Why should I feel any guilt in helping people take maximum financial advantage from the tax “loopholes” the wealthy bake into the tax code? To save a lot of time and trouble we could just not tax capital gains and then the wealthy could really spur investment and completely avoid taxation. I can stop debating internally about if it’s right or wrong to get an $11m payment for a CFO who helped drive his company into the ground.

It’s just so much easier to stop fighting and accept that people do not act rationally so there is no point in arguing with them.

What else are you going do, watch dancing with the stars and consume for the rest of your life? Thats exactly what they want you to do, be a good little consumer with no worries. Your giving up to easy my friend

I also liked your tax paragraph, its funny because "americans dont want to be taxed when they become rich" lol Thats why I think some people are stupid, because they buy into the "american dream", its more like the American Fantasy if you look at the real data. .01% of people on this planet (about 13,000) have more money than 4 billion people. Its even worse in America so that argument about one day becoming rich is retarded. It takes power away from the middle class, the people who drive the economy and tread in place with a life long quest of paying off debt and interest (money which was created out of thin air to begin with) to make the rich even richer. All you have to do is look at the data, thats all. Look at how the gap between rich and middle class has gotten bigger over the last century, if most people did that they would realize that most people are not bright enough to be among the rich. Either your born rich, or you have a brilliant idea and someone bought into it. Nobody ever got rich, saving money from labor.

 

[xsited1]

A liberal throwing in the towel... So many jokes, so little time.

 

[Diuretic]

That was a hoot Turbo - had to put my coffee down for safety reasons

 

[Turboswede]

What else are you going do, watch dancing with the stars and consume for the rest of your life? Thats exactly what they want you to do, be a good little consumer with no worries. Your giving up to easy my friend

I also liked your tax paragraph, its funny because "americans dont want to be taxed when they become rich" lol Thats why I think some people are stupid, because they buy into the "american dream", its more like the American Fantasy if you look at the real data. .01% of people on this planet (about 13,000) have more money than 4 billion people. Its even worse in America so that argument about one day becoming rich is retarded. It takes power away from the middle class, the people who drive the economy and tread in place with a life long quest of paying off debt and interest (money which was created out of thin air to begin with) to make the rich even richer. All you have to do is look at the data, thats all. Look at how the gap between rich and middle class has gotten bigger over the last century, if most people did that they would realize that most people are not bright enough to be among the rich. Either your born rich, or you have a brilliant idea and someone bought into it. Nobody ever got rich, saving money from labor.

Yup, it’s hard talking about something you know a LOT about and having people just dismiss it. I have seen tables from people showing that there is more ability to transcend social class in the U.S. than in the other developed countries and I believe that’s true. But in the vast majority of cases, even in America, if you are born truly poor, you will stay poor and if you are born truly wealthy then you stay wealthy.

I see wealthy folks and their holdings every day and I came to accept that I will never be in a position to be represented by my employer (minimum $50m in net worth for private clients). These are the people every one is up in arms about raising taxes on? Hey why can’t we just eliminate the 15% rate on qualified dividends? And how in the name of all that is holy would anyone not living off investment income support the douche bag that put that policy into place?

You want to talk about class warfare? The wealthy get a 15% flat tax while everyone who works for a living pays 15.4% in payroll taxes, why do people stand for that?

But I can yell about it until I am blue in the face and no one seems to care, they are just trying to get into that wealthy class and hire someone to figure out how to get their net marginal tax rate to 10%.

 

[Vintij]

Yup, it’s hard talking about something you know a LOT about and having people just dismiss it. I have seen tables from people showing that there is more ability to transcend social class in the U.S. than in the other developed countries and I believe that’s true. But in the vast majority of cases, even in America, if you are born truly poor, you will stay poor and if you are born truly wealthy then you stay wealthy.

I see wealthy folks and their holdings every day and I came to accept that I will never be in a position to be represented by my employer (minimum $50m in net worth for private clients). These are the people every one is up in arms about raising taxes on? Hey why can’t we just eliminate the 15% rate on qualified dividends? And how in the name of all that is holy would anyone not living off investment income support the douche bag that put that policy into place?

You want to talk about class warfare? The wealthy get a 15% flat tax while everyone who works for a living pays 15.4% in payroll taxes, why do people stand for that?

But I can yell about it until I am blue in the face and no one seems to care, they are just trying to get into that wealthy class and hire someone to figure out how to get their net marginal tax rate to 10%.

I dont know why they complain at all, the tax rate was much much higher under kennedy administration. Thats when capital gains were really starting to be taken over. Even during a surplus era you still have the responsibility to reduce demand, otherwise it is a wasted opportunity. Nobody realizes this, that even if you pay off the national debt and increase revenues its not enough to stabalize the economy without a real attempt to reduce demand and in general reduce overall risk but when you have so much capital profit pouring in, everyone wants a piece of the pie so nobody acts responsibly. All we do is import because demand is so high in this country alone for consumer products that it overshadows our resources for export. This results in loss of jobs, loss of revenue and higher risk of loan default which the government attempts to throw money at because there is no other option, eventually this de-vaules the dollar even more than its been devauled over the last century since the FDIC has been in existence. Radical reform ends up being the only option, similar to the Jackson administration when he got rid of the central bank. When that does not happen, we pass on the debt to future generations and by that time the interest alone more than doubles the prinicpal amount. We are really treading in water here unless the government can get Americans back their jobs, higher wages and get them to buy more shit they dont need. Thats why we are in a messed up situation, because we stopped paying off the debt we used to buy shit we dont need. Now we are paying the price.

As far as the housing bubble, dont even get me started. This monetary system of a perverted version of capitalism was built for bubbles to inflate and then explode. Its inevitable, same way inflation is actually considered OK in this country. We actually adjust wages based on inflation as if its the norm to de-value the dollar in the first place.

 

[Zoomie1980]

I can play that:

Abortion
I am past the stage in my life where this would be an issue for my wife and I and I fully intend to have our family doctor prescribe birth control to my daughter when she enters puberty, I will also be sure to provide my son with discreet access to condoms at a young age. It will not impact my family if the Right eliminate legal abortion and I don’t see them eliminating birth control in the near future. Same goes for sex education. My children will get clinical lectures on the subject from the time they are about 6 so why care if it is banned from public school, besides with the cuts to social programs I won’t be paying to support all those teen mothers.

A completely and utterly irrelevant issue for a Federal Government. Goes right in there with obscenity and other attempts at morality legislative attempts. These things are LOCAL if anything at all.

Taxes
Why do I support candidates that will raise my taxes? As I move into a life stage where I can benefit from the SSA cap, the Cap Gains rate on dividends, mortgage deductions, education tax credits and the upper income tax brackets it does not make any sense for me to support Obama. 8 out of 10 Americans don’t want to tax the wealthy as they will not want to be taxed when they become wealthy, even though the odds say that they will never reach that level. Why should I want to dispel that myth?

I will never support a candidate who wants to raise my taxes. I worked hard to get where I am at and I intend to keep as much of what I worked for as I possibly can, to the point of moving a lot of it off shore if I have to. I owe nothing to anyone for anything other than my creditors. IF you are poor, it's your own fault, not mine and not my problem to feed you or your kids.

National Debt
Why do I care, I can just invest in foreign markets and protect my savings from the ever deflating value of the dollar and as all my debt is fixed, higher interest rates are beneficial to me. Besides, if the domestic financial industry collapses we will just bail it out again.

Yes, I can always by foreign bonds.

Defense
It’s a volunteer army so my kids won’t be forced to go to war and shares of United Defense and Boeing are on the rise, and would really take off if we just eliminated all those labor unions.

Clean up the procurement problem and defense is not nearly as expensive. Remove all control over defense from Congress other than basic dollar amount funding. The Generals can determine how to spend it.

Religion
If it becomes a requirement I suppose I could give up my Sundays to the local Anglican parish

Religion is irrelevant. Government has nothing to do with it other than not forming a "Church of the United States".

Guns
Don’t really care one way or the other, maybe I should get armed just in case society does break down.

People can own whatever they can afford to buy. IF they want to buy a Patriot missile battery for their roof and can afford it....let them. If they shoot down an airliner with it, arrest and try them for mass murder.

[QUOTE
Social Security
I have a good defined benefit plan, an SERP and a good 401(k); I will not need the SSA so why should I pay for them.

The only reason I want this continue is so I can get at least some of my money I put into it back out of it. Otherwise it could go away and I would never miss it.

Medicare
My SERP provides retiree health benefits so this isn’t my problem either.

Medicaid
I have health insurance, why should I care if poor kids get any healthcare at all.

Government has no purpose with these. It is not the government's role to provide anyone health care. That's up the individual. If they can't afford it, tough. Die. Should have thought of that when you dropped out of school, quit your job, committed a crime and got fired, took drugs, or whatever other excuse you have for ending up with no money.

Education
My wife is a SHAM so we could home school or pay for private school. As the money I spend on public schools does not benefit me directly, I should be against the whole concept of public education.

Government has no role in education. Prior to 1968 it had no role. Education in this country has gone DOWNHILL since it took a role.

Outsourcing:
My position will not be outsourced so why should I care?

If American kids are too stupid and lazy to take the hard stuff we usually end up outsourcing, like programming, then too bad, we find the workers where we can find them

Organized Labor:
Why should I care if the US labor movement tanks? I am just tired of trying to convince bus drivers that they would not make $80K per year without a union. If they want to make $11 per hour, I am not going to try and stop them.

Market should always be what sets wages as well as prices. Funny how tech workers, engineers, accountants, nurses, and other people with highly sought after skills need no unions to make $30, $40, $50 or more. If a trained monkey can do your job, why should you make more then a monkey doing it?

 

[Diuretic]

Government has no purpose with these. It is not the government's role to provide anyone health care. That's up the individual. If they can't afford it, tough. Die.

What if you couldn't afford it Zoomie? Would you simply roll over and die?

 

[Zoomie1980]

What if you couldn't afford it Zoomie? Would you simply roll over and die?

Yes, if I got sick. But I can afford it so it's not a problem of mine...

 

[Vintij]

Yes, if I got sick. But I can afford it so it's not a problem of mine...

So if another great depression happens, and many people lose jobs....unable to pay bills, find another job and pay healthcare......they should all just die? Nice, did you get your morals from the bible? Sounds like it.

 

[Zoomie1980]

So if another great depression happens, and many people lose jobs....unable to pay bills, find another job and pay healthcare......they should all just die? Nice, did you get your morals from the bible? Sounds like it.

Yes, that's the fundamental nature of the human condition.

As it is, the planet has reached maximum capacity for human population. At current rates of population growth we should fully expect over one BILLION people to die of famine and disease int he next 10 years. And there is NOTHING WRONG with that. It is nature doing what nature does....

You know, nature == God

 

[Epsilon Delta]

So if another great depression happens, and many people lose jobs....unable to pay bills, find another job and pay healthcare......they should all just die? Nice, did you get your morals from the bible? Sounds like it.

What's the use of that? He's made it very clear: He doesn't give a flying fuck about anyone but himself, and could never understand why anyone would think otherwise. It doesn't show he's cruel or any less of a person, just that he's tremendously short-sighted, and hasn't come to the realization that regardless of his assets he's not isolated from the reality of the masses.