Thread for Zionists who Deny the Existence of the Palestinian Christians and Muslims

[P F Tinmore]

Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there.

There is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

1. There are plenty of historic precedents for States built around an ethnic or cultural group. It is exceedingly common as a precedent. Most are built on some aspect of "exclusivity" or purpose in preserving a specific culture.

2. There is most certainly a precedent for such a Jewish State, an indigenous Jewish state based on Israel's historical right to re-constitute sovereignty on her ancestral and historic territory.

3. There is NO precedent for an exclusive "Palestinian" state, whether you want to determine that as an inclusive state for two widely opposing cultural groups or as an exclusive state for only the Arabs. Therefore, if your argument rejects a Jewish State, it equally rejects a "Palestinian" State.

4. One need be neither the first people there nor the only people there in order to have an historical and cultural relationship with the territory. And again, if your argument rejects a Jewish State, it equally rejects a "Palestinian" State.

5. Israel does not, and has never, demanded an exclusive Jewish State. It has demanded (entirely morally and correctly) a state which seeks to preserve the unique culture of the indigenous Jewish people, while ensuring, in law, the rights of all peoples within her borders to freedom from discrimination for race, ethnicity, religion. This is in direct contrast to current Arab Palestinian governments who demand a Jew-free Palestine as a pre-condition to any sort of peace deal, and who demand, ultimately, a territory which has NO Jewish self-determination or guarantee of freedom from discrimination.

Therefore, if your argument rejects a Jewish State, it equally rejects a "Palestinian" State.

The Palestinian state had Muslims, Christians, and Jews with no distinction.

Dividing people by religion was a British/Zionist thing.

 

[P F Tinmore]

5. Israel does not, and has never, demanded an exclusive Jewish State. It has demanded (entirely morally and correctly) a state which seeks to preserve the unique culture of the indigenous Jewish people, while ensuring, in law, the rights of all peoples within her borders to freedom from discrimination for race, ethnicity, religion.

Load of Israeli crap. Non Jewish citizens of Israel are not allowed to claim their own land that they owned before Israel stole it.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinian state had Muslims, Christians, and Jews with no distinction.

Dividing people by religion was a British/Zionist thing.

There has never been a "Palestinian" State, so fail. And there are a ton of historical precedents for territories being divided along the lines of religious faith and ethnicity.

 

[Shusha]

5. Israel does not, and has never, demanded an exclusive Jewish State. It has demanded (entirely morally and correctly) a state which seeks to preserve the unique culture of the indigenous Jewish people, while ensuring, in law, the rights of all peoples within her borders to freedom from discrimination for race, ethnicity, religion.

Load of Israeli crap. Non Jewish citizens of Israel are not allowed to claim their own land that they owned before Israel stole it.

Its not a conflict over land ownership. Its a conflict over sovereignty.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There has never been a "Palestinian" State, so fail.

Another load of Israeli crap.

 

[P F Tinmore]

5. Israel does not, and has never, demanded an exclusive Jewish State. It has demanded (entirely morally and correctly) a state which seeks to preserve the unique culture of the indigenous Jewish people, while ensuring, in law, the rights of all peoples within her borders to freedom from discrimination for race, ethnicity, religion.

Load of Israeli crap. Non Jewish citizens of Israel are not allowed to claim their own land that they owned before Israel stole it.

Its not a conflict over land ownership. Its a conflict over sovereignty.

People not being allowed to claim their own land is discrimination. There is no equality here.

 

[Shusha]

People not being allowed to claim their own land is discrimination. There is no equality here.

Hence the need for a Jewish State.

 

[P F Tinmore]

People not being allowed to claim their own land is discrimination. There is no equality here.

Hence the need for a Jewish State.

 

[Shusha]

You keep conflating land ownership with sovereignty.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You keep conflating land ownership with sovereignty.

a state which seeks to preserve the unique culture of the indigenous Jewish people, while ensuring, in law, the rights of all peoples within her borders to freedom from discrimination for race, ethnicity, religion.

But their is a system of discrimination. Israel is an apartheid state.

Citizen Strangers Minority Rights in the State of Israel

 

[rylah]

The irony, of course, is that the denial of the existence of the Jewish people is at LEAST as common on the anti-Israel side.

Both sides need to recognize each other.

Totally agree, this has been a never ending cycle.
But the fact is, the conversation here is unbalanced from the beginning-
we have Jews/Israelis, Europeans and Americans who argue about Jews, Arabs and the Jewish/Palestinian homeland.

I think many Jews/Israelis (including me) would be really happy to find out that a significant part of the Palestinians are actually our closest brothers, in a way that they'd feel the real connection to their 'enemies'.

However, I don't see any change in the denial of Jewish rights or even ties to the land on the European side...seem the Europeans are more focused on the victimization of Palestinians and de-legitimization of the Jewish homeland.

This only supports the continuation of the centuries long bloodshed.

However, I don't see any change in the denial of Jewish rights

That's weird, Nobody I know in BDS denies the right of Jews to live on that land.

'the right of Jews to live on that land' include self determination (govern), right to worship freely at the Holy places, and the ability to protect ourselves.

You deny it.

Jews were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there.

There is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

I was right, this way You can always deny minorities their rights under Arab-Muslim supremacy. This has been going far too long, ask Yazidis and Kurds..

But then again this is what You in the BDS stand for.

 

[Shusha]

You keep conflating land ownership with sovereignty.

a state which seeks to preserve the unique culture of the indigenous Jewish people, while ensuring, in law, the rights of all peoples within her borders to freedom from discrimination for race, ethnicity, religion.

But their is a system of discrimination. Israel is an apartheid state.

Citizen Strangers Minority Rights in the State of Israel

I am not going to watch an hour long video to hear the same tired old concepts you have been espousing for the year and a half I've been on this forum. If there is something new and interesting I should see -- give me the minute to start watching from, some inkling of why its relevant or new and preferably your personal take on it. I respect your need for an auditory medium for your visual impairments, but please also respect my need for a visual medium for my auditory impairments.



Let's not conflate sovereignty and discrimination. They are two different things. Sovereignty is the (inherent) right of ethnic and cultural groups to self-determination. Discrimination is the inability to provide, in law or in practice, the right of all people to equal treatment. Either can exist without the other. And rights to sovereignty do not depend on an absence of discrimination.
The fact that discrimination exists in a nation does not in the SLIGHTEST affect their sovereignty over territory. Thus, Saudi Arabia can restrict the rights of women and not have her sovereignty questioned or delegitimized. Thus, Russia can round up and imprison gay people and not have her sovereignty questioned or delegitimized. Thus, the USA can be horribly racist and not have her sovereignty questioned or delegitimized. All this conversation about discrimination and "apartheid" (completely inaccurate) is therefore irrelevant. It affects the sovereignty of Israel not one tiny little bit.

So, back to the initial point of discussion this thread:

A State which seeks to preserve and self-determine a specific cultural or ethnic group on their territory of origin, ancestry and history has consistently been proven to be a legitimate form of State development and formation. The Jewish people have more history than nearly anyone.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You keep conflating land ownership with sovereignty.

a state which seeks to preserve the unique culture of the indigenous Jewish people, while ensuring, in law, the rights of all peoples within her borders to freedom from discrimination for race, ethnicity, religion.

But their is a system of discrimination. Israel is an apartheid state.

Citizen Strangers Minority Rights in the State of Israel

I am not going to watch an hour long video to hear the same tired old concepts you have been espousing for the year and a half I've been on this forum. If there is something new and interesting I should see -- give me the minute to start watching from, some inkling of why its relevant or new and preferably your personal take on it. I respect your need for an auditory medium for your visual impairments, but please also respect my need for a visual medium for my auditory impairments.



Let's not conflate sovereignty and discrimination. They are two different things. Sovereignty is the (inherent) right of ethnic and cultural groups to self-determination. Discrimination is the inability to provide, in law or in practice, the right of all people to equal treatment. Either can exist without the other. And rights to sovereignty do not depend on an absence of discrimination.
The fact that discrimination exists in a nation does not in the SLIGHTEST affect their sovereignty over territory. Thus, Saudi Arabia can restrict the rights of women and not have her sovereignty questioned or delegitimized. Thus, Russia can round up and imprison gay people and not have her sovereignty questioned or delegitimized. Thus, the USA can be horribly racist and not have her sovereignty questioned or delegitimized. All this conversation about discrimination and "apartheid" (completely inaccurate) is therefore irrelevant. It affects the sovereignty of Israel not one tiny little bit.

So, back to the initial point of discussion this thread:

A State which seeks to preserve and self-determine a specific cultural or ethnic group on their territory of origin, ancestry and history has consistently been proven to be a legitimate form of State development and formation. The Jewish people have more history than nearly anyone.

I am not going to watch an hour long video

That's why you never learn anything. It shows in your posts.

 

[Hollie]

You keep conflating land ownership with sovereignty.

a state which seeks to preserve the unique culture of the indigenous Jewish people, while ensuring, in law, the rights of all peoples within her borders to freedom from discrimination for race, ethnicity, religion.

But their is a system of discrimination. Israel is an apartheid state.

Citizen Strangers Minority Rights in the State of Israel

I am not going to watch an hour long video to hear the same tired old concepts you have been espousing for the year and a half I've been on this forum. If there is something new and interesting I should see -- give me the minute to start watching from, some inkling of why its relevant or new and preferably your personal take on it. I respect your need for an auditory medium for your visual impairments, but please also respect my need for a visual medium for my auditory impairments.



Let's not conflate sovereignty and discrimination. They are two different things. Sovereignty is the (inherent) right of ethnic and cultural groups to self-determination. Discrimination is the inability to provide, in law or in practice, the right of all people to equal treatment. Either can exist without the other. And rights to sovereignty do not depend on an absence of discrimination.
The fact that discrimination exists in a nation does not in the SLIGHTEST affect their sovereignty over territory. Thus, Saudi Arabia can restrict the rights of women and not have her sovereignty questioned or delegitimized. Thus, Russia can round up and imprison gay people and not have her sovereignty questioned or delegitimized. Thus, the USA can be horribly racist and not have her sovereignty questioned or delegitimized. All this conversation about discrimination and "apartheid" (completely inaccurate) is therefore irrelevant. It affects the sovereignty of Israel not one tiny little bit.

So, back to the initial point of discussion this thread:

A State which seeks to preserve and self-determine a specific cultural or ethnic group on their territory of origin, ancestry and history has consistently been proven to be a legitimate form of State development and formation. The Jewish people have more history than nearly anyone.

I am not going to watch an hour long video

That's why you never learn anything. It shows in your posts.

Your cut and paste Islamist propaganda videos are hardly a learning experience. While they reinforce dogma, stereotypes and propaganda - valuable to those like you - why would you think others woud take such tripe seriously?

 

[Shusha]

That's why you never learn anything. It shows in your posts.

People who have things to teach would be able to respond to the substance of my comments. They would be able to dissect and interpret the videos they post and comment on relevant material. They would not be limited to lame one-liners.

We are currently discussing this specific question: A State which seeks to preserve and self-determine a specific cultural or ethnic group on their territory of origin, ancestry and history has consistently been proven to be a legitimate form of State development and formation.

Put up or shut up. In your own words.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That's why you never learn anything. It shows in your posts.

People who have things to teach would be able to respond to the substance of my comments. They would be able to dissect and interpret the videos they post and comment on relevant material. They would not be limited to lame one-liners.

We are currently discussing this specific question: A State which seeks to preserve and self-determine a specific cultural or ethnic group on their territory of origin, ancestry and history has consistently been proven to be a legitimate form of State development and formation.

Put up or shut up. In your own words.

OK, but legally Palestine is a state. Politically it is not.

It is just the opposite for Israel.

 

[Hollie]

That's why you never learn anything. It shows in your posts.

People who have things to teach would be able to respond to the substance of my comments. They would be able to dissect and interpret the videos they post and comment on relevant material. They would not be limited to lame one-liners.

We are currently discussing this specific question: A State which seeks to preserve and self-determine a specific cultural or ethnic group on their territory of origin, ancestry and history has consistently been proven to be a legitimate form of State development and formation.

Put up or shut up. In your own words.

OK, but legally Palestine is a state. Politically it is not.

It is just the opposite for Israel.

Actually, it's the Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That's why you never learn anything. It shows in your posts.

People who have things to teach would be able to respond to the substance of my comments. They would be able to dissect and interpret the videos they post and comment on relevant material. They would not be limited to lame one-liners.

We are currently discussing this specific question: A State which seeks to preserve and self-determine a specific cultural or ethnic group on their territory of origin, ancestry and history has consistently been proven to be a legitimate form of State development and formation.

Put up or shut up. In your own words.

OK, but legally Palestine is a state. Politically it is not.

It is just the opposite for Israel.

Actually, it's the Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan.

Your usual deflection from the issues.

 

[Hollie]

That's why you never learn anything. It shows in your posts.

People who have things to teach would be able to respond to the substance of my comments. They would be able to dissect and interpret the videos they post and comment on relevant material. They would not be limited to lame one-liners.

We are currently discussing this specific question: A State which seeks to preserve and self-determine a specific cultural or ethnic group on their territory of origin, ancestry and history has consistently been proven to be a legitimate form of State development and formation.

Put up or shut up. In your own words.

OK, but legally Palestine is a state. Politically it is not.

It is just the opposite for Israel.

Actually, it's the Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan.

Your usual deflection from the issues.

Your usual retreat to inventing a history that conforms to your delusions and misconceptions.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That's why you never learn anything. It shows in your posts.

People who have things to teach would be able to respond to the substance of my comments. They would be able to dissect and interpret the videos they post and comment on relevant material. They would not be limited to lame one-liners.

We are currently discussing this specific question: A State which seeks to preserve and self-determine a specific cultural or ethnic group on their territory of origin, ancestry and history has consistently been proven to be a legitimate form of State development and formation.

Put up or shut up. In your own words.

OK, but legally Palestine is a state. Politically it is not.

It is just the opposite for Israel.

Actually, it's the Magical Kingdom of Disney Pal'istan.

Your usual deflection from the issues.

Your usual retreat to inventing a history that conforms to your delusions and misconceptions.

So, what makes Israel a legitimate, not merely a political, state?