Thoughts on Healthcare

[DiamondDave]

Not everyone can afford things other than the cheapest food either, that does not make it the responsibility of someone else to give the 'wanting' person what they desire.

Isn't it? Do you call yourself a christian - or even human? Do you not believe in taking care of the least in our society? These poor people eating bad, non-nutritious food is another reason that we are in the health care crisis that we are in as well, isn't it?

I can VOLUNTARILY assist and give as I choose, for whatever cause I choose... IF that is to a health charity like St. Judes, fine.. .If that is to the March of Dimes, fine... If that is to a charity supplying lacy underwear to homeless people, fine... If that is to a charity to save blind marmosets, fine...

You do not have the inherent right to forcibly live of the fruits of another person's labor. You do not have the right to suspend someone else's personal rights and freedoms, for the sake of your wants and needs.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

In a free society, you can ask for whatever compensation you want for your skills. Does not mean you will inherently get it, but you have that freedom. So as a burger flipper you can say that you want $50 an hour as compensation for your skills. And the company you are applying to has every right to laugh in your face and to you to beat your feet down the street.

With additional competition and with the elimination of many over-the-top government interventions, the market costs of a product (yes, even health care) will go down. It is the nature of supply and demand and basic economics 101.

Okay, I guess this works in your black and white fantasy world. Supply and demand doesn't work when the advantages are skewed toward corporations that collude to ream us due to pure greed. Health care is not just a product - I do believe it is a right in the kind of society I want to live in - at least a right to equal access. So, according to you why is it okay for the corporation to exploit my labors without true compensation (being on the lower rung, we do most of the heavy lifting, right)? I do not "set" my salary. You take the best that is offered, and in these times, what you can get. Really, stop to imagine the third world country that this would be if everything were your way. Until the oligarchs show up, that is...

 

[DiamondDave]

In a free society, you can ask for whatever compensation you want for your skills. Does not mean you will inherently get it, but you have that freedom. So as a burger flipper you can say that you want $50 an hour as compensation for your skills. And the company you are applying to has every right to laugh in your face and to you to beat your feet down the street.

With additional competition and with the elimination of many over-the-top government interventions, the market costs of a product (yes, even health care) will go down. It is the nature of supply and demand and basic economics 101.

Okay, I guess this works in your black and white fantasy world. Supply and demand doesn't work when the advantages are skewed toward corporations that collude to ream us due to pure greed. Health care is not just a product - I do believe it is a right in the kind of society I want to live in - at least a right to equal access. So, according to you why is it okay for the corporation to exploit my labors without true compensation (being on the lower rung, we do most of the heavy lifting, right)? I do not "set" my salary. You take the best that is offered, and in these times, what you can get. Really, stop to imagine the third world country that this would be if everything were your way. Until the oligarchs show up, that is...

Are you truly that ignorant or just that brainwashed?...

1) Your personal upkeep and care is not a right that is inherently to be given at the expense of someone else... it does not work that way.... you do not have the right to infringe on anyone else's personal rights
2) You have the right to ask for whatever compensation you wish for your labor. Other individuals or company also have the right to say no. If you do not like what is offered, go somewhere else or do whatever YOU have to do to change your skillset into one that is in more demand

 

[Mr. Peepers]

1) Your personal upkeep and care is not a right that is inherently to be given at the expense of someone else... it does not work that way.... you do not have the right to infringe on anyone else's personal rights

Oh, but it is okay for private corporations to do so? They pretty much control what we eat, hear, drink and breathe. They have control over how much wealth the ENTIRE population gets and gets to keep. Do you not see this? At least our government is voted in and out. If you don't think the private sector controlls almost everything you do, including our congress due to lobbying, then you are as dumb as a republican.


2) You have the right to ask for whatever compensation you wish for your labor. Other individuals or company also have the right to say no. If you do not like what is offered, go somewhere else or do whatever YOU have to do to change your skillset into one that is in more demand [/QUOTE]

And you know damn well that it doesn't work this way. A corporation pays as little as it can to keep a warm body and still make profits. The ball is definitely not in the job-seeker's court. Yeah, you can walk away without taking that job if you live rent free and don't want to eat. You really are a piece of work. Put down that greed porn "Atlas Shrugged" and take a stroll in the real world, why don't you.

 

[auditor0007]

From my own personal experience, without a doubt, the best way to reduce costs is to remove insurance companies from the picture when it comes to routine/normal care. These things drive up the cost of insurance drastically and it is a deterant to competition. Because I no longer can purchase reasonably priced insurance, I am paying cash, and guess what? I am paying much less than my insurance company paid in the past. In most cases, I'm paying about a third of what my insurance company paid in the past. For some procedures, I'm paying 20% of what my insurance company used to pay for the same procedure.

Health insurance is necessary for the big things, and everyone should have it. Very few people can come up with $100,000 when they have a heart attack, or $300,000 or more if they become seriously sick with cancer. That is when we need insurance and it is also where the risk can be spread out.

There is no risk when it comes to routine care because everyone needs it. So why are insurance companies providing our access to this care for those treatments?

Because so many employers buy it in order to offer employees health care benefits....this got started during WWII days when there were wage controls....companies started offering benefits such as paying for health care.

Employer-based health care is just plain stupid....it gives insurance companies (& employers who choose the plan) control over our everyday health care and also jacks up the price.....instead we should buy it directly for a lot less on the free market...but who's going to do that when they think they are getting it "free" from the company they work for?

I agree with that. We need to re-educate people on how this current system works to wake them up.

 

[auditor0007]

Employer-based health care is just plain stupid....it gives insurance companies (& employers who choose the plan) control over our everyday health care and also jacks up the price.....instead we should buy it directly for a lot less on the free market...but who's going to do that when they think they are getting it "free" from the company they work for?

Stupid??? Are you kidding me? I pay $101/month (which is still really expensive for a meager salary like mine) for health insurance, life insurance, dental and vision. If my company didn't match that cost, there would be NO WAY that I could afford any insurance at all!

As for preventative care. Not everyone can afford to dish out $300 every time we have to go for the doctor for a mammogram or gyno... not to mention yearly physicals and when we're just plain sick or hurt. I think we need to definitely get for-profit insurance companies OUT of our basic care. Doesn't have to be gov't but it should be non-profit.

If you are only paying $101/month for your health insurance, then your employer is paying the bulk. If that same employer paid you the money that it now pays for your health insurance, you could choose where and how to spend that money more effectively. And we could use the goverenment to subsidize those with very low incomes. But we need to address the issue of cost because we are throwing away half of what we spend on healthcare.

 

[auditor0007]

Not everyone can afford things other than the cheapest food either, that does not make it the responsibility of someone else to give the 'wanting' person what they desire.

Isn't it? Do you call yourself a christian - or even human? Do you not believe in taking care of the least in our society? These poor people eating bad, non-nutritious food is another reason that we are in the health care crisis that we are in as well, isn't it?

People who eat non-nutritious food are responsible for themselves. They are idiots because you can eat a good healthy diet with good meals for much less than you can eating all the frozen processed dinners and chips and donuts that make these people the way they are.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

So you have the right to infringe on the personal freedoms of others to derive profit from their efforts?

Okay, this has been bothering me. This is the first sentance you talky pointed out there when I said that employer-matched health insurance was invaluable to people like me. Exactly whose rights am I infringing upon, exactly? I'm not talking about Medicare... I'm talking about overpriced insurance that I must pay for if I want to be covered. You don't even make sense.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

If you are only paying $101/month for your health insurance, then your employer is paying the bulk.

They match it dollar for dollar.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

I don't think I could buy insurance, dental, vision, long term disability and life insurance for $202 a month. Health care that affordable doesn't exist. Especially not in NYC. Besides, that $202 would then be competely taxed and I would come away with approx. $121 to now put toward insurance. Whee...

 

[Cecilie1200]

So you have the right to infringe on the personal freedoms of others to derive profit from their efforts?

Not everyone can afford things other than the cheapest food either, that does not make it the responsibility of someone else to give the 'wanting' person what they desire.

And if you want something or need something bad enough for your personal care and well being, you will do what you have to do to get it. If that means working 2 or 3 jobs, so be it. If that means increasing your job skills to demand a higher wage, so be it.... And if it means you go without because you don't earn what you need to to purchase something, so be it

Oh yeah, THAT Is the America we want. Why don't you just move to Russia already? Tell us all how great it is over there. What right does a private insurance company have to gouge me for thousands of dollars a year so that I can see a doctor? They are infringing on my rights to LIVE. possibly.

Is this just your standard, unthinking debate tactic? "I don't like it, so it's just like Russia"? Because I have to tell you that it's really stupid to tell someone who's opposing government takeover of a huge segment of the private sector that THEY should move to a socialist country.

What right does a private company have to "gouge" you? Um, the fact that it's THEIR product or service that's being provided. What right do YOU have to gouge THEM by forcing them to accept YOUR price?

You have a right not to be killed. You don't have a right to have other people actively contribute to keeping your ass alive. This nonsensical, childish argument is akin to saying that the supermarket is infringing on your "right to live" by not giving you free food so that you can eat.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Not everyone can afford things other than the cheapest food either, that does not make it the responsibility of someone else to give the 'wanting' person what they desire.

Isn't it? Do you call yourself a christian - or even human? Do you not believe in taking care of the least in our society? These poor people eating bad, non-nutritious food is another reason that we are in the health care crisis that we are in as well, isn't it?

Please show me anywhere in the Bible that God directed Christian compassion to be shown by taxing people and then employing government welfare programs to distribute the cash. Otherwise, kindly stop trying to graft your greedy, selfish, socialist crap onto Christianity.

 

[Cecilie1200]

In a free society, you can ask for whatever compensation you want for your skills. Does not mean you will inherently get it, but you have that freedom. So as a burger flipper you can say that you want $50 an hour as compensation for your skills. And the company you are applying to has every right to laugh in your face and to you to beat your feet down the street.

With additional competition and with the elimination of many over-the-top government interventions, the market costs of a product (yes, even health care) will go down. It is the nature of supply and demand and basic economics 101.

Okay, I guess this works in your black and white fantasy world. Supply and demand doesn't work when the advantages are skewed toward corporations that collude to ream us due to pure greed.

Pretty rich, you accusing others of greed when you're advocating that YOU be given the right to take what you want from those who earned it.

You're absolutely right that the free market doesn't work when someone comes in and blocks it and slants the playing field. And who is it that does that, hmmm? Who is it that interferes with the healthcare industry's ability to operate as a free market? There is only one entity in the country with the power to truly manipulate the market that way, and YOU are advocating that we give it even more control and power. Brilliant.

Health care is not just a product - I do believe it is a right in the kind of society I want to live in - at least a right to equal access.

No, health care IS just a product. It's something people want, and something other people are therefore willing to provide for compensation. The best products in the world are the ones you can depend on people always wanting. It's completely insane to say, "Well, anything that isn't a frivolous luxury I can do without can't possibly be subject to economics!"

Insofar as we don't LIVE in the society you want to live in - thank God - it's irrelevant whether or not healthcare is a "right" in that fantasy world. In THIS world, it isn't. And who gave YOU the right to dictate the society all the rest of us live in according to what YOU personally think is good?

So, according to you why is it okay for the corporation to exploit my labors without true compensation (being on the lower rung, we do most of the heavy lifting, right)?

No, dumbass. Those of you on the lower rung are just stupid enough to BELIEVE you're doing all the work, which is exactly why you're on the lower rung and not managing or owning the place.

The corporation has the right to "exploit" your labors for the same reason that YOU have a right to "exploit" their need for labor: it's called "commerce". You have something they want (unskilled labor to scrub the toilets, one assumes) and they have something YOU want (money to buy your weekend case of beer). So you make a trade. No exploitation involved.

I can assure you that those on the rungs above you, while perhaps not engaging in as much physical activity as you are, are doing much more to ensure the profitability of the company than whatever penny-ante "a trained chimp could do it" job you have. I can also assure you that you would never in a million years even be able to understand the issues they deal with, let alone do their jobs.

I do not "set" my salary. You take the best that is offered, and in these times, what you can get. Really, stop to imagine the third world country that this would be if everything were your way. Until the oligarchs show up, that is...

Um, dumbass, taking the best that is offered IS setting your own salary. I realize that that leaves you very little leeway down where you are, since your job skill set is unlikely to be worth very much to anyone, but that does change as one becomes more skilled and experienced and learns to do more than simply jobs that any high school dropout could handle.

Third world countries are not created by free markets, retard. They're created by government control and oppression of free markets. See, THIS is why you're still dorking around with an entry-level job.

 

[Cecilie1200]

1) Your personal upkeep and care is not a right that is inherently to be given at the expense of someone else... it does not work that way.... you do not have the right to infringe on anyone else's personal rights

Oh, but it is okay for private corporations to do so? They pretty much control what we eat, hear, drink and breathe. They have control over how much wealth the ENTIRE population gets and gets to keep. Do you not see this? At least our government is voted in and out. If you don't think the private sector controlls almost everything you do, including our congress due to lobbying, then you are as dumb as a republican.

Corporations aren't infringing on your personal rights simply by existing, nor do they "control" what you eat, hear, drink, and breathe. They do PROVIDE those things (well, except air. That's free), and you have the choice of which provider you get those things from. Are you SERIOUSLY bitching about corporations daring to actually make products and services available to you, rather than leaving you living in a world where you have to produce everything for yourself? Is that REALLY your argument here?

They have much less control over things than you think they do, son. Corporations come and go all the time. Companies that are excoriated for being "monopolies" disappear altogether within a matter of a few years, simply due to market forces.

Do they lobby the government? Sure. The US Constitution gives every citizen the right to lobby the government and communicate their desires. If you feel the government is paying too much attention to one group's concerns over another's, would you mind explaining why you blame the group instead of the government officials?

2) You have the right to ask for whatever compensation you wish for your labor. Other individuals or company also have the right to say no. If you do not like what is offered, go somewhere else or do whatever YOU have to do to change your skillset into one that is in more demand

And you know damn well that it doesn't work this way. A corporation pays as little as it can to keep a warm body and still make profits. The ball is definitely not in the job-seeker's court. Yeah, you can walk away without taking that job if you live rent free and don't want to eat. You really are a piece of work. Put down that greed porn "Atlas Shrugged" and take a stroll in the real world, why don't you.[/QUOTE]

Of course a corporation pays as little as it can manage. Why shouldn't they? Are you telling me that you don't do as little work as you have to to keep your job? Or are you suggesting that you altruistically provide your employer with tons of free overtime and handle two or even three different positions for the salary of one?

Whether or not the ball is in the jobseeker's court depends on the job they're seeking. Yeah, if you can't do anything that hundreds of other mouthbreathers out there could do just as well, then you don't have a lot of leverage to bargain with. If, on the other hand, you do something valuable that not many people can do, and do it better than most, then you're bringing some chips to the table. But don't blame the company for not valuing you more than your skill set is worth. Blame yourself for not becoming a more valuable person.