Those Arrogant Americans

[HUGGY]

Orcas - my own neck of the woods! Hoping to do some quality boating around that area over the summer.

We lived right behind Scull Island in West Sound. Orcas to Deer Harbor was my turf as a youngster.

Know it well! We used to pop into the resort there. It was sold this past year - casualty of the tougher economic times.

Hoping to hit up Roche Harbor for the 4th of July celebrations. I always get a kick out how willing the Canadians are to party down for our 4th of July. Love hearing a group of Canadian-Brits singing the Star Spangled Banner as the fireworks are going off - somewhat of a surreal quality that always amuses me.

I know this is a skoche off topic but before they built all the cabins in Deer Harbor there was this apple tree next to the old store just above the entrance to the marina that had THE most amazing fruit. The apples were the red delicious variety except they were just busting with sugar to the point that there were these thick veins of honey color extending out to the skin like marbled ice cream making the apples look almost yellow.. When you bit into them the chunks would snap off like little firecrackers and the ribbons of surgar would melt in your mouth. These apples were huge...maybe 4-6 inches in diameter. Looking back sometimes I feel like I lived in a magical wonderland....Hell..it was.

 

[WillowTree]

Keep in mind that the America the rest of the world hates is the rigght wing/conservative/republican/corporate/military America/right wing/pnac/attack a soverign nation part of America.

And I don't care for them much either.

We need the rest of the world to know that we are very sorry about our right winger neo cons and assure them that they will never have power in this country ever again.

Hey, aren't you the guy who made up all that stuff about Drudge and Fox telling lies about Chris Dodd?

And then the next day, Dodd 'fessed up?

Wasn't that you? Oh, yeah. It was you.

yep! the one and only bobo...

 

[WillowTree]

I concur. While the French have had their flaws (every country does) they helped us win our freedom at the beginning, and instead of asking us for payback then, they gave us a gift to show they will always be our allies (which they have honored even when we are idiots), the Statue of Liberty. Being an ally doesn't mean agreeing, it doesn't even mean helping in every situation, it means helping to defend us when we are being attacked. Allies are like best friends (real ones not the phony ones that pretend to like you even if you slap them across the face). Calling us arrogant isn't betraying us, and sadly it's true, we are an arrogant country. Arrogance isn't even really a flaw to everyone, I for one think it has it's place in life. However just because our best friends are telling us that does not make them enemies, it's like when you have some food on your face and your best friend says there's a spot on your face, same thing.

The GM thing, all our companies in the US need that slap in the face lately, not just them. They need to know we aren't going to just let them continue to produce sub-par products and pay them for it.

France took oil for food money from Saddam? Did you forget that? Did you forget that they and Germany voted against the US in the UN every single solitary time we tried to handle the matter of Iraq? Sure you did. You are one of the blame America first crowd. Oh,, and then there's the little matter of France refusing to allow us to use their air space.. I believe that was when we the US were trying to liberate Kuwait.. I could be wrong..but I mock France piss on em..

"Best friends don't let best friends drive drunk" ...

The Saddam thing is easy, we did to, we also gave them weapons and even put Saddam in power (indirectly), so this point you made is just finger pointing. Of course they voted against it, Iraq was not a proven threat to anyone, even our own government was using faulty information on that part. To this day we see no evidence of them being a real threat, at least enough of one to have warranted sending our troops over there to die. So that point is moot, they were not "letting their best friend drive drunk'. As for Germany voting against it, you really think they are in any position to fight anything? Of course they don't want more war right now, not in their own back yard, they have enough problems to deal with. Using air space ... lame ... denying use of air space doesn't qualify as an act against another country, and did we really need it that bad? (I'll let an air force strategist correct me on if one is on here) So again, why are you so against them? Japan wasn't too thrilled with our actions either, but we use all their products still. Canada didn't care, but we still trade with them. Other countries we call allies voted against it to, but I guess since we still NEED those ones, it's okay?

Left wing dreck!

 

[AllieBaba]

Those Arrogant Americans

James Lewis James Lewis Mon Apr 6, 6:12 am ET

We have a rock star president who for the first time in American history fired the President of a private corporation, General Motors, then immediately flew to Europe with an entourage of 500 courtiers and a worshipful media, bowed waist-deep to the King of Saudi Arabia, and proceeded to accuse his own country of arrogance.

In France, of all places.

Does anybody else think this guy is shockingly ignorant? I wonder if he has every really talked to a concentration camp survivor, or a Cuban refugee, or a boat person from Vietnam? Or a Soviet dissident. Or a survivor or Mao's purges.

Not to mention families with fallen American soldiers in the graveyards. Yes, he's going to Normandie, but will he apologize for our arrogance there, too? Does he really understand anything beyond the PC history of the world? Or will he just lie in his photo op at the American Cemetery at Normandy?

Ahhh, those arrogant Americans. First they rebel against King George III and all the crowned heads of Europe. Then they welcome tens of millions of poor and persecuted people from the Old World. Then they fail to bow down to Europe's greatest figures -- from Napoleon and Otto von Bismarck to the Kaiser, Hitler and Stalin. Then they fight a civil war, losing half a million people to liberate black people in America. Then they diss the man the BBC considers to be the greatest philosopher ever, one Karl Marx, whose followers killed 100 million innocents in the 20th century. And then, to top it all off, they liberate both the Western half of Europe (in 1946) and the Eastern half (in 1989).

What arrogance these Americans have. Either that, or a very, very -- no, stunningly -- ignorant man was just elected president. What kind of man has such an obsessive need to put down his own country? Especially given our real history? Has he ever read an honest history book?

Not to mention families with fallen American soldiers in the graveyards. Yes, he's going to Normandie, but will he apologize for our arrogance there, too? Does he really understand anything beyond the PC history of the world? Or will he just lie in his photo op at the American Cemetery at Normandy?


You are the one lacking in the history twerp. America wouldn't have done a damn thing for the French if Japan hadn't forced us in to the fray. We didn't lift a finger when Hitler took france.

Still, we did save their asses. Twice, at least.

It doesn't matter why. Personally, I'd rather see France owned by the Japanese than owned by Islam.

 

[sealybobo]

Keep in mind that the America the rest of the world hates is the rigght wing/conservative/republican/corporate/military America/right wing/pnac/attack a soverign nation part of America.

And I don't care for them much either.

We need the rest of the world to know that we are very sorry about our right winger neo cons and assure them that they will never have power in this country ever again.

Hey, aren't you the guy who made up all that stuff about Drudge and Fox telling lies about Chris Dodd?

And then the next day, Dodd 'fessed up?

Wasn't that you? Oh, yeah. It was you.

First of all, I think Fox got lucky.

Second, when we analyse what Dodd did, all it does is make him look like he's a Republican sellout.

It wasn't like the GOP are anti CEO bonus'.

And you know what? The Dems are now going to stop excessive bonus pay.

So what is the GOP going to do? They are going to change direction on their argument. Now they will cry that the Dems are trying to be socialist by dictating how much people can make.

This is what happens when you are stupid enough to let a right winger control the conversation.

See how they are trying to switch this to be about Chris Dodd?

Well I piss on Chris Dodd. I want him out for pulling that one slimy move. But that means they need to run another Democrat against him in his home state, because I certainly don't suggest replacing him with an asshole from the Grand Obstructionist Party. They created the policy of CEO golden parachutes for successfully bankrupting a company so they could renig on pensions. Now are you going to tell me that all Dems are just as bad as the GOP because Chris Dodd signed on to that GOP legislation?

 

[WillowTree]

Hey, aren't you the guy who made up all that stuff about Drudge and Fox telling lies about Chris Dodd?

And then the next day, Dodd 'fessed up?

Wasn't that you? Oh, yeah. It was you.

First of all, I think Fox got lucky.

Second, when we analyse what Dodd did, all it does is make him look like he's a Republican sellout.

It wasn't like the GOP are anti CEO bonus'.

And you know what? The Dems are now going to stop excessive bonus pay.

So what is the GOP going to do? They are going to change direction on their argument. Now they will cry that the Dems are trying to be socialist by dictating how much people can make.

This is what happens when you are stupid enough to let a right winger control the conversation.

See how they are trying to switch this to be about Chris Dodd?

Well I piss on Chris Dodd. I want him out for pulling that one slimy move. But that means they need to run another Democrat against him in his home state, because I certainly don't suggest replacing him with an asshole from the Grand Obstructionist Party. They created the policy of CEO golden parachutes for successfully bankrupting a company so they could renig on pensions. Now are you going to tell me that all Dems are just as bad as the GOP because Chris Dodd signed on to that GOP legislation?

Oh yeah? Will you post it when the demcwat asshole you call leader lays down the law to FM and FM? And fires the ceo?? sure ya will

 

[auditor0007]

Those Arrogant Americans

James Lewis James Lewis Mon Apr 6, 6:12 am ET

We have a rock star president who for the first time in American history fired the President of a private corporation, General Motors, then immediately flew to Europe with an entourage of 500 courtiers and a worshipful media, bowed waist-deep to the King of Saudi Arabia, and proceeded to accuse his own country of arrogance.

In France, of all places.

Does anybody else think this guy is shockingly ignorant? I wonder if he has every really talked to a concentration camp survivor, or a Cuban refugee, or a boat person from Vietnam? Or a Soviet dissident. Or a survivor or Mao's purges.

Not to mention families with fallen American soldiers in the graveyards. Yes, he's going to Normandie, but will he apologize for our arrogance there, too? Does he really understand anything beyond the PC history of the world? Or will he just lie in his photo op at the American Cemetery at Normandy?

Ahhh, those arrogant Americans. First they rebel against King George III and all the crowned heads of Europe. Then they welcome tens of millions of poor and persecuted people from the Old World. Then they fail to bow down to Europe's greatest figures -- from Napoleon and Otto von Bismarck to the Kaiser, Hitler and Stalin. Then they fight a civil war, losing half a million people to liberate black people in America. Then they diss the man the BBC considers to be the greatest philosopher ever, one Karl Marx, whose followers killed 100 million innocents in the 20th century. And then, to top it all off, they liberate both the Western half of Europe (in 1946) and the Eastern half (in 1989).

What arrogance these Americans have. Either that, or a very, very -- no, stunningly -- ignorant man was just elected president. What kind of man has such an obsessive need to put down his own country? Especially given our real history? Has he ever read an honest history book?

Not to mention families with fallen American soldiers in the graveyards. Yes, he's going to Normandie, but will he apologize for our arrogance there, too? Does he really understand anything beyond the PC history of the world? Or will he just lie in his photo op at the American Cemetery at Normandy?


You are the one lacking in the history twerp. America wouldn't have done a damn thing for the French if Japan hadn't forced us in to the fray. We didn't lift a finger when Hitler took france.

Actually America had allocated billions worth of materials to the European front - including France, which received about 20% of those materials. (Lend-Lease) Roosevelt grew increasingly frustrated with the ongoing isolationist bent of the American public and many in Congress - Pearl Harbor was the event that broke that post WWI mentality and allowed him to openly unleash the full force of the American military machine against both Japan and Nazi Germany - but America was in fact, deeply involved in the European conflict prior to Pearl Harbor, but in a more secretive way. There was also a smaller scale lend-lease type program that send significant naval supplies to the European war efforts that was passed about a year prior to Lend-Lease.

On a somewhat interesting historical side note, the United Kingdom made its final payment to the United States for the Lend-Lease funds in 2006, at which time the British government formally thanked the United States for its WWII wartime support.

Had Japan not attacked us, we would have joined the war in Europe, most likely within one year. You are absolutely correct.

 

[Sinatra]

Hey, aren't you the guy who made up all that stuff about Drudge and Fox telling lies about Chris Dodd?

And then the next day, Dodd 'fessed up?

Wasn't that you? Oh, yeah. It was you.

First of all, I think Fox got lucky.

Second, when we analyse what Dodd did, all it does is make him look like he's a Republican sellout.

It wasn't like the GOP are anti CEO bonus'.

And you know what? The Dems are now going to stop excessive bonus pay.

So what is the GOP going to do? They are going to change direction on their argument. Now they will cry that the Dems are trying to be socialist by dictating how much people can make.

This is what happens when you are stupid enough to let a right winger control the conversation.

See how they are trying to switch this to be about Chris Dodd?

Well I piss on Chris Dodd. I want him out for pulling that one slimy move. But that means they need to run another Democrat against him in his home state, because I certainly don't suggest replacing him with an asshole from the Grand Obstructionist Party. They created the policy of CEO golden parachutes for successfully bankrupting a company so they could renig on pensions. Now are you going to tell me that all Dems are just as bad as the GOP because Chris Dodd signed on to that GOP legislation?

Bobo - you are so cute!

Getting all excited like that - you could be your own reality TV show!

I PISS ON DODD - I PISS ON DODD - I PISS ON DODD - I PISS ON DODD

...the timeless wisdom of Bobo

 

[AllieBaba]

He honestly reminds me of Hitler youth. And the mindless commie drones the USSR crapped all over (when they weren't actually killing them).

 

[KittenKoder]

France took oil for food money from Saddam? Did you forget that? Did you forget that they and Germany voted against the US in the UN every single solitary time we tried to handle the matter of Iraq? Sure you did. You are one of the blame America first crowd. Oh,, and then there's the little matter of France refusing to allow us to use their air space.. I believe that was when we the US were trying to liberate Kuwait.. I could be wrong..but I mock France piss on em..

"Best friends don't let best friends drive drunk" ...

The Saddam thing is easy, we did to, we also gave them weapons and even put Saddam in power (indirectly), so this point you made is just finger pointing. Of course they voted against it, Iraq was not a proven threat to anyone, even our own government was using faulty information on that part. To this day we see no evidence of them being a real threat, at least enough of one to have warranted sending our troops over there to die. So that point is moot, they were not "letting their best friend drive drunk'. As for Germany voting against it, you really think they are in any position to fight anything? Of course they don't want more war right now, not in their own back yard, they have enough problems to deal with. Using air space ... lame ... denying use of air space doesn't qualify as an act against another country, and did we really need it that bad? (I'll let an air force strategist correct me on if one is on here) So again, why are you so against them? Japan wasn't too thrilled with our actions either, but we use all their products still. Canada didn't care, but we still trade with them. Other countries we call allies voted against it to, but I guess since we still NEED those ones, it's okay?

Left wing dreck!

Really? Which part? If you are not specific then it's you using "right-wing dreck".

 

[WillowTree]

"Best friends don't let best friends drive drunk" ...

The Saddam thing is easy, we did to, we also gave them weapons and even put Saddam in power (indirectly), so this point you made is just finger pointing. Of course they voted against it, Iraq was not a proven threat to anyone, even our own government was using faulty information on that part. To this day we see no evidence of them being a real threat, at least enough of one to have warranted sending our troops over there to die. So that point is moot, they were not "letting their best friend drive drunk'. As for Germany voting against it, you really think they are in any position to fight anything? Of course they don't want more war right now, not in their own back yard, they have enough problems to deal with. Using air space ... lame ... denying use of air space doesn't qualify as an act against another country, and did we really need it that bad? (I'll let an air force strategist correct me on if one is on here) So again, why are you so against them? Japan wasn't too thrilled with our actions either, but we use all their products still. Canada didn't care, but we still trade with them. Other countries we call allies voted against it to, but I guess since we still NEED those ones, it's okay?

Left wing dreck!

Really? Which part? If you are not specific then it's you using "right-wing dreck".

Bullshit! all Bullshit.. aka left wing dreck,,



none of which has anything to do with the fact that Saddam was paying France and Germany money that should have gone to the citizens of Iraq.. You know?? the oil for food money.. And he paid it to them to do what?? You guessed it you little nazi,, he paid it to them to vote against the US in the UN. We tried to deal with Iraq and upholding the sanctions against them through the UN but they of course were as corrupt as Saddam and France and Germany.. but you, you little anti american nazi swallow the leftist kool aid and want to blame america first.. that's what makes your utterances dreck.

 

[sealybobo]

First of all, I think Fox got lucky.

Second, when we analyse what Dodd did, all it does is make him look like he's a Republican sellout.

It wasn't like the GOP are anti CEO bonus'.

And you know what? The Dems are now going to stop excessive bonus pay.

So what is the GOP going to do? They are going to change direction on their argument. Now they will cry that the Dems are trying to be socialist by dictating how much people can make.

This is what happens when you are stupid enough to let a right winger control the conversation.

See how they are trying to switch this to be about Chris Dodd?

Well I piss on Chris Dodd. I want him out for pulling that one slimy move. But that means they need to run another Democrat against him in his home state, because I certainly don't suggest replacing him with an asshole from the Grand Obstructionist Party. They created the policy of CEO golden parachutes for successfully bankrupting a company so they could renig on pensions. Now are you going to tell me that all Dems are just as bad as the GOP because Chris Dodd signed on to that GOP legislation?

Bobo - you are so cute!

Getting all excited like that - you could be your own reality TV show!

I PISS ON DODD - I PISS ON DODD - I PISS ON DODD - I PISS ON DODD

...the timeless wisdom of Bobo

I just didn't like it that he caved in at the last minute. Sort of made him seem like he was trying to be sneaky.

Thats the exact same shit the GOP did for the last 8 years.

So no, I don't approve of Dodd doing this.

And he seemed like such a good guy when he was leading the charge on NOT giving the telecoms retro active immunity.

But then again, when you look back on that, he lost. So in my opinion, he is a loser too.

He probably knew the telecoms were going to get their immunity but he wanted to at least say he tried. He was running for president at the time.

But notice if he were a republican and I accused him of being shady, you would say that I didn't have enough proof.

And if he were a republican, you would have swallowed his excuse for why he gave the bonus'.

I don't accept it.

But you would accept any GOP excuse. Right?

 

[sealybobo]

"Best friends don't let best friends drive drunk" ...

The Saddam thing is easy, we did to, we also gave them weapons and even put Saddam in power (indirectly), so this point you made is just finger pointing. Of course they voted against it, Iraq was not a proven threat to anyone, even our own government was using faulty information on that part. To this day we see no evidence of them being a real threat, at least enough of one to have warranted sending our troops over there to die. So that point is moot, they were not "letting their best friend drive drunk'. As for Germany voting against it, you really think they are in any position to fight anything? Of course they don't want more war right now, not in their own back yard, they have enough problems to deal with. Using air space ... lame ... denying use of air space doesn't qualify as an act against another country, and did we really need it that bad? (I'll let an air force strategist correct me on if one is on here) So again, why are you so against them? Japan wasn't too thrilled with our actions either, but we use all their products still. Canada didn't care, but we still trade with them. Other countries we call allies voted against it to, but I guess since we still NEED those ones, it's okay?

Left wing dreck!

Really? Which part? If you are not specific then it's you using "right-wing dreck".

If you look at the middle east, Iraq is the least likely country to get their hands on a nuclear weapon.

Anyways, there is no way Iraq was worth it.

If we could do it all over again, knowing what you know now, would you invade Iraq still? Would you do anything differently? What?

Are we still paying for Iraq or is Iraqi oil paying for it yet?

 

[sealybobo]

Left wing dreck!

Really? Which part? If you are not specific then it's you using "right-wing dreck".

Bullshit! all Bullshit.. aka left wing dreck,,



none of which has anything to do with the fact that Saddam was paying France and Germany money that should have gone to the citizens of Iraq.. You know?? the oil for food money.. And he paid it to them to do what?? You guessed it you little nazi,, he paid it to them to vote against the US in the UN. We tried to deal with Iraq and upholding the sanctions against them through the UN but they of course were as corrupt as Saddam and France and Germany.. but you, you little anti american nazi swallow the leftist kool aid and want to blame america first.. that's what makes your utterances dreck.

Links?

And you think we should go to war with any country that pays France & Germany to vote against us?

 

[KittenKoder]

Left wing dreck!

Really? Which part? If you are not specific then it's you using "right-wing dreck".

Bullshit! all Bullshit.. aka left wing dreck,,



none of which has anything to do with the fact that Saddam was paying France and Germany money that should have gone to the citizens of Iraq.. You know?? the oil for food money.. And he paid it to them to do what?? You guessed it you little nazi,, he paid it to them to vote against the US in the UN. We tried to deal with Iraq and upholding the sanctions against them through the UN but they of course were as corrupt as Saddam and France and Germany.. but you, you little anti american nazi swallow the leftist kool aid and want to blame america first.. that's what makes your utterances dreck.

Conjecture ... same thing that made us go into war with too little evidence. They had trade agreements, as we did to, with Iraq. Are you suggesting that we should trust a country willing to break an agreement more than one which would blindly follow another? Think on more levels than partisan bull with this, while many of the left-wingnuts like to sugar coat our dealings with other countries, there are times when our country is wrong, and this was one. We screwed up, plain and simple, the American thing to do would be admit we made a mistake and move on, instead of holding grudges and ruining the relations with allies, which is one reason we have been looked up to for so long. Yes, the only reason other countries looked up to us was because we were the big brother, but so long as we continue this crap we will be nothing but a bully to them. International affairs are far more complicated than what you seem to think. We shouldn't try to "make peace" with everyone, that's unrealistic, nor should we ever be lulled into a false sense of security (which is why we were too quick to jump the gun on Iraq). We need them, they don't need us right now. Because of our economy getting more fucked up by the idiot Obama we will need the other countries even more (never thought that was possible). They were willing to forgive us for Jr, but this I am not sure they should.

 

[WillowTree]

Really? Which part? If you are not specific then it's you using "right-wing dreck".

Bullshit! all Bullshit.. aka left wing dreck,,



none of which has anything to do with the fact that Saddam was paying France and Germany money that should have gone to the citizens of Iraq.. You know?? the oil for food money.. And he paid it to them to do what?? You guessed it you little nazi,, he paid it to them to vote against the US in the UN. We tried to deal with Iraq and upholding the sanctions against them through the UN but they of course were as corrupt as Saddam and France and Germany.. but you, you little anti american nazi swallow the leftist kool aid and want to blame america first.. that's what makes your utterances dreck.

Links?

And you think we should go to war with any country that pays France & Germany to vote against us?

And I said this where? exactly? little man?

 

[WillowTree]

Really? Which part? If you are not specific then it's you using "right-wing dreck".

Bullshit! all Bullshit.. aka left wing dreck,,



none of which has anything to do with the fact that Saddam was paying France and Germany money that should have gone to the citizens of Iraq.. You know?? the oil for food money.. And he paid it to them to do what?? You guessed it you little nazi,, he paid it to them to vote against the US in the UN. We tried to deal with Iraq and upholding the sanctions against them through the UN but they of course were as corrupt as Saddam and France and Germany.. but you, you little anti american nazi swallow the leftist kool aid and want to blame america first.. that's what makes your utterances dreck.

Conjecture ... same thing that made us go into war with too little evidence. They had trade agreements, as we did to, with Iraq. Are you suggesting that we should trust a country willing to break an agreement more than one which would blindly follow another? Think on more levels than partisan bull with this, while many of the left-wingnuts like to sugar coat our dealings with other countries, there are times when our country is wrong, and this was one. We screwed up, plain and simple, the American thing to do would be admit we made a mistake and move on, instead of holding grudges and ruining the relations with allies, which is one reason we have been looked up to for so long. Yes, the only reason other countries looked up to us was because we were the big brother, but so long as we continue this crap we will be nothing but a bully to them. International affairs are far more complicated than what you seem to think. We shouldn't try to "make peace" with everyone, that's unrealistic, nor should we ever be lulled into a false sense of security (which is why we were too quick to jump the gun on Iraq). We need them, they don't need us right now. Because of our economy getting more fucked up by the idiot Obama we will need the other countries even more (never thought that was possible). They were willing to forgive us for Jr, but this I am not sure they should.

none of it is conjecture honey!

 

[KittenKoder]

Um ... okay Willow, this is one time that you are being very partisan in your viewings, just gotta say, I hope that when you figure out the problems with those last two posts you don't give up though. I would debate it more with you, but in light of this I cannot see you returning the favor any time soon.

 

[WillowTree]

Um ... okay Willow, this is one time that you are being very partisan in your viewings, just gotta say, I hope that when you figure out the problems with those last two posts you don't give up though. I would debate it more with you, but in light of this I cannot see you returning the favor any time soon.

silly girl.. you don't have to argue with me. I know what happened.. After all, the oil for food scandal at the corrupt United Nations was well publized.. you may have been in a coma at the time. I don't know. but there you have it.

 

[KittenKoder]

Um ... okay Willow, this is one time that you are being very partisan in your viewings, just gotta say, I hope that when you figure out the problems with those last two posts you don't give up though. I would debate it more with you, but in light of this I cannot see you returning the favor any time soon.

silly girl.. you don't have to argue with me. I know what happened.. After all, the oil for food scandal at the corrupt United Nations was well publized.. you may have been in a coma at the time. I don't know. but there you have it.

Not argue, debate, arguments waste air but debates can be enjoyable for all (very thin line between the two sometimes but I see it well).

As for the media, you also recall I take most of what they say with a pound of salt. They sensationalize everything, no matter who supports what, all they are interested in is getting viewers and will even lie to get them, so if that's where you got your info it is no wonder why mine is very different. There have been a lot of "scandals" aired by the media which proved to be nothing more than spins. However, you did not see your "trip up", which leads me to believe that this debate has tun it's course and neither side will come up with anything new.