This is why we need a living wage

[Againsheila]

First, you are probably right. The minimum wage is probably going to be raised. To add to your reasons:

Part of the problem starts with the fact that we have a minimum wage at all. The idea of the minimum wage has infected people and businesses alike. The idea of a minimum wage tells businesses that they are justified in paying that low of a wage because it is the minimum wage. The idea of a minimum wage tells people that a business is justified in paying that wage because it is the minimum wage. People (especially low or no skill workers) lose leverage to negotiate their wage with the company because the company can just point to the minimum wage and say, "I'm allowed to pay that."

So, I'd say that the minimum wage doesn't only artificially raise wages, it actually keeps them lower over time.

Second, with regards to the increase rising up the pay scale. I was discussing that very point with some left leaning folk who came up with a very ironic argument against it. Their argument was essentially, "You wouldn't have to raise the other wages just because the minimum wage increased. If the people who were higher before don't like it they can just shut up about it or quit and find another job." It was ironic because virtually the same argument had been used by the other side about minimum wage workers. The only difference was one side was saying it about workers who had already worked their way up a pay scale and the other was saying it about workers who hadn't.

This is the part that concerns me. Are they really thinking that, or has this issue just not occurred to them?

I'm still hoping to get a clear and civil response.

.

It really really is concerning. You get the general feeling that people who support the "living wage" argument fall into two groups: those who haven't thought about it much beyond the emotional or superficial, and those who know it won't really help anything but want to use it as a political tool to get themselves or their "side" re-elected.

Like you said, I could be wrong. Maybe someone really has thought it through and has some concrete reasoning for why it won't cause any problems. I just haven't heard them yet.

That's because you refuse to listen. Did you watch the video in the OP?

 

[Wake]

If wages go up for the same work, prices will shoot up, too.

What will be the difference when everything costs more?

 

[sameech]

When minimum wage was created it could sustain a family of 3 over the poverty wage. You really don't think people work less hard today than they did then do you?

The current MW is just shy of supporting a family of two at poverty level. If someone had a family of three to support, the earned income tax credit around $5K would kick in to lift you up up slightly above the poverty level for a family of 3.

 

[Againsheila]

that is the reality for skilled labor.... and it costs me nothing now.

90% of the work in getting to a new reality is admitting there might be one. (The correct answer was, "Yes.")

If the correct answer is really yes, then you should be able to start your own discount store and pay employees that living wage. Then Walmart will have to raise their wages or go out of business to compete with your discount store.

Walmart has already run any competitors out of the market and they will make sure you don't stand a chance.

 

[Againsheila]

When minimum wage was created it could sustain a family of 3 over the poverty wage. You really don't think people work less hard today than they did then do you?

The current MW is just shy of supporting a family of two at poverty level. If someone had a family of three to support, the earned income tax credit around $5K would kick in to lift you up up slightly above the poverty level for a family of 3.

Where are you getting your figures. Today's minimum wage won't even support one person at the poverty level.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

So 3 who hate the poor and want to force them to go to college or school of some kind to rack up more debt instead of letting them earn a decent wage at a job they enjoy.

You dont need to go to college to get a decent paying job. All you have to do is apply yourself. The wife and I didnt go to college and I retired at 46,she'll retire in two more years at 47.
If you dont aspire to be more then a stocker at the grocery store why in the hell should I subsidize that choice? Besides your stealing jobs from teenagers and old people. Have you no shame?

When minimum wage was created it could sustain a family of 3 over the poverty wage. You really don't think people work less hard today than they did then do you?

You're so full of shit. Min.wage was $3.31 when I started working a normal job in 1981.
There is noway in hell I could have supported a family of three.
But then I've never worked min wage in my life. It just didnt pay enough.

Wait I take that back,when I was nine years old I worked as a ball boy for the rockets for $5.00 bucks.......A GAME. My evening started at 5:00 pm and ended at midnight.

The people today dont have the same work ethic for damn sure. Back then they hadn't been coddled and told that they were the best thing since sliced bread,that there are no losers.
That self esteem is more important then learning that life isn't fair,and you damn well better expect some disappointments in life.

Youth of today are pussies when it comes to working,they dont believe in working your way up the ladder. Their attitude is "pay me more now",then I'll work harder".
Pathetic.....

 

[Mac1958]

You dont need to go to college to get a decent paying job. All you have to do is apply yourself. The wife and I didnt go to college and I retired at 46,she'll retire in two more years at 47.
If you dont aspire to be more then a stocker at the grocery store why in the hell should I subsidize that choice? Besides your stealing jobs from teenagers and old people. Have you no shame?

When minimum wage was created it could sustain a family of 3 over the poverty wage. You really don't think people work less hard today than they did then do you?

Your so full of shit. Min.wage was $3.31 when I started working a normal job in 1981.
There is noway in hell I could have supported a family of three.
But then I've never worked min wage in my life. It just didnt pay enough.

Wait I take that back,when I was nine years old I worked as a ball boy for the rockets for $5.00 bucks.......A GAME. My evening started at 5:00 pm and ended at midnight.

The people today dont have the same work ethic for damn sure. Back then they hadn't been coddled and told that they were the best thing since sliced bread,that there are no losers.
That self esteem is more important then learning that life isn't fair,and you damn well better expect some disappointments in life.

Youth of today are pussies when it comes to working,they dont believe in working your way up the ladder. Their attitude is "pay me more now,then I'll work harder".
Pathetic.....

Yep, a hundred years ago my first job was at Kentucky Fried Chicken. $2.05 per hour. And no, that would not have supported a family.



And I wonder if I'll ever get a response to the points I bring up in post #68...

.

 

[sameech]

Where are you getting your figures. Today's minimum wage won't even support one person at the poverty level.

40 hrs x $7.25 x 52 weeks=$15,080.

FPL 1 person=$11,670
2 person HH=$15,730
3 person HH=$19,790

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/14poverty.cfm

 

[Againsheila]

The Shocking Truth About What It Would Cost Us All If Walmart Paid A Living Wage

Watch the video.

$300,000,000 a year in food stamps just for walmart employees. Give them a living wage and we pay an extra 1.4% on their goods. One penny for every dollar spent at Walmart and those employees would not need to live on food stamps.

Nearly $104,000,000 million worth of food stamps was redeemed at military commissaries in the fiscal year ended Sept. 30, 2013 alone. This does NOT include any grocery story where the military user did not shop at the commissary on base. Many do not use the commissary for many reasons. This ups the number to almost 200,000,000 million in food stamps use for military families.

Why isn't our military being paid a living wage by the Federal Government?

Military use of food stamps rises again - Feb. 17, 2014

How about Firefighters?

Firefighters, city at pay impasse | Bartlesville Examiner Enterprise

State Troopers?

State troopers: Must take out loans, use food stamps to feed families

Read more: State troopers: Must take out loans, use food stamps to feed families | Local News - WMTW Home

The above men and women put their lives on the line daily for this country and are not paid a living wage. Why is that? Its not just "evil Wal-Mart". Federal and state government don't pay living wages as well. So where is the outrage for Joe Schmuck when he or she signs on to die in a fire, war or in some fire fight with a bad guy on the road?

And if the minimum wage was raised, their pay would be raised as well.

 

[Mathbud1]

I just really don't understand why folks why people think low wages are OK.
I would guess that most folks posting here are Middle Class. When wages go up at the bottom, typically it spreads to the next group, which would be the Middle Class.
While the Middle Class in America has seen flat/stagnant wage growth (in Real Dollars), other industrial nation's Middle Class has seen wage growth. Canada recently passed the US as having t
the best pad Middle Class and other countries are poised to do the same.
This shouldn't be a partisan subject. Wages for the working Middle Class have been stagnant under both Republican and Democratic presidents and congresses.
I've posted this before, working Americans didn't cause flat wages, the didn't ship jobs offshore and they didn't bring in automation into the workplace. They didn't benefit at all. But someone reaped the rewards of those policies.
A weak Middle Class symbolizes a weak economic environment. While the US spins it's wheels economically, other countries are moving forward.

It isn't that people don't care about low wages. It is that they don't think raising the minimum wage to a living wage is the answer. According to this page Minimum wage in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Canada doesn't have a national minimum wage. The minimum wage is determined separately in each province. The same page says that their minimum is also not a living wage. So, if you are using Canada as a model: states should be determining their own minimum wage, and it should not be a "living wage".

 

[syrenn]

So 3 who hate the poor and want to force them to go to college or school of some kind to rack up more debt instead of letting them earn a decent wage at a job they enjoy.

You dont need to go to college to get a decent paying job. All you have to do is apply yourself. The wife and I didnt go to college and I retired at 46,she'll retire in two more years at 47.
If you dont aspire to be more then a stocker at the grocery store why in the hell should I subsidize that choice? Besides your stealing jobs from teenagers and old people. Have you no shame?

When minimum wage was created it could sustain a family of 3 over the poverty wage. You really don't think people work less hard today than they did then do you?

as a matter of fact, yes i sure do think that.

When minimum wage was created, people did not feel that a lifestyle was entitled to them. Now they do. When minimum wage was created people would work 3 jobs if they had to. Now, they cry they want more money and should not have to work 3 jobs to survive.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

When minimum wage was created it could sustain a family of 3 over the poverty wage. You really don't think people work less hard today than they did then do you?

Your so full of shit. Min.wage was $3.31 when I started working a normal job in 1981.
There is noway in hell I could have supported a family of three.
But then I've never worked min wage in my life. It just didnt pay enough.

Wait I take that back,when I was nine years old I worked as a ball boy for the rockets for $5.00 bucks.......A GAME. My evening started at 5:00 pm and ended at midnight.

The people today dont have the same work ethic for damn sure. Back then they hadn't been coddled and told that they were the best thing since sliced bread,that there are no losers.
That self esteem is more important then learning that life isn't fair,and you damn well better expect some disappointments in life.

Youth of today are pussies when it comes to working,they dont believe in working your way up the ladder. Their attitude is "pay me more now,then I'll work harder".
Pathetic.....

Yep, a hundred years ago my first job was at Kentucky Fried Chicken. $2.05 per hour. And no, that would not have supported a family.



And I wonder if I'll ever get a response to the points I bring up in post #68...

.

Of course not...because they have no answers to those questions.
Or possibly they all work min wage and want a raise,be damned what it does to the economy or their employer.

 

[syrenn]

If wages go up for the same work, prices will shoot up, too.

What will be the difference when everything costs more?

if wages go up.... are employers able to expect more work from said worker? Will the low paying worker getting a 50% raise have to work 50% harder for that raise? Will they have to be 50% more productive?

 

[Mathbud1]

This is the part that concerns me. Are they really thinking that, or has this issue just not occurred to them?

I'm still hoping to get a clear and civil response.

.

It really really is concerning. You get the general feeling that people who support the "living wage" argument fall into two groups: those who haven't thought about it much beyond the emotional or superficial, and those who know it won't really help anything but want to use it as a political tool to get themselves or their "side" re-elected.

Like you said, I could be wrong. Maybe someone really has thought it through and has some concrete reasoning for why it won't cause any problems. I just haven't heard them yet.

That's because you refuse to listen. Did you watch the video in the OP?

I listen well. I did watch the video. The video did not go into anything but the superficial and emotional which is exactly what I said.

 

[syrenn]

90% of the work in getting to a new reality is admitting there might be one. (The correct answer was, "Yes.")

If the correct answer is really yes, then you should be able to start your own discount store and pay employees that living wage. Then Walmart will have to raise their wages or go out of business to compete with your discount store.

Walmart has already run any competitors out of the market and they will make sure you don't stand a chance.

so this is about walmart and not MW?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

The Shocking Truth About What It Would Cost Us All If Walmart Paid A Living Wage

Watch the video.

$300,000,000 a year in food stamps just for walmart employees. Give them a living wage and we pay an extra 1.4% on their goods. One penny for every dollar spent at Walmart and those employees would not need to live on food stamps.

Nearly $104,000,000 million worth of food stamps was redeemed at military commissaries in the fiscal year ended Sept. 30, 2013 alone. This does NOT include any grocery story where the military user did not shop at the commissary on base. Many do not use the commissary for many reasons. This ups the number to almost 200,000,000 million in food stamps use for military families.

Why isn't our military being paid a living wage by the Federal Government?

Military use of food stamps rises again - Feb. 17, 2014

How about Firefighters?

Firefighters, city at pay impasse | Bartlesville Examiner Enterprise

State Troopers?

State troopers: Must take out loans, use food stamps to feed families

Read more: State troopers: Must take out loans, use food stamps to feed families | Local News - WMTW Home

The above men and women put their lives on the line daily for this country and are not paid a living wage. Why is that? Its not just "evil Wal-Mart". Federal and state government don't pay living wages as well. So where is the outrage for Joe Schmuck when he or she signs on to die in a fire, war or in some fire fight with a bad guy on the road?

And if the minimum wage was raised, their pay would be raised as well.

And you seriously dont think the cost of everything wont go up as a consequence?
Have you ever ran a business? Even a cool aide stand?
For Gods sake!!! This isn't rocket science!

 

[syrenn]

When minimum wage was created it could sustain a family of 3 over the poverty wage. You really don't think people work less hard today than they did then do you?

The current MW is just shy of supporting a family of two at poverty level. If someone had a family of three to support, the earned income tax credit around $5K would kick in to lift you up up slightly above the poverty level for a family of 3.

Where are you getting your figures. Today's minimum wage won't even support one person at the poverty level.

something wrong with working 80 hours a week to support yourself?

 

[syrenn]

The Shocking Truth About What It Would Cost Us All If Walmart Paid A Living Wage

Watch the video.

$300,000,000 a year in food stamps just for walmart employees. Give them a living wage and we pay an extra 1.4% on their goods. One penny for every dollar spent at Walmart and those employees would not need to live on food stamps.

Nearly $104,000,000 million worth of food stamps was redeemed at military commissaries in the fiscal year ended Sept. 30, 2013 alone. This does NOT include any grocery story where the military user did not shop at the commissary on base. Many do not use the commissary for many reasons. This ups the number to almost 200,000,000 million in food stamps use for military families.

Why isn't our military being paid a living wage by the Federal Government?

Military use of food stamps rises again - Feb. 17, 2014

How about Firefighters?

Firefighters, city at pay impasse | Bartlesville Examiner Enterprise

State Troopers?

State troopers: Must take out loans, use food stamps to feed families

Read more: State troopers: Must take out loans, use food stamps to feed families | Local News - WMTW Home

The above men and women put their lives on the line daily for this country and are not paid a living wage. Why is that? Its not just "evil Wal-Mart". Federal and state government don't pay living wages as well. So where is the outrage for Joe Schmuck when he or she signs on to die in a fire, war or in some fire fight with a bad guy on the road?

And if the minimum wage was raised, their pay would be raised as well.

I take it you are not keeping up on cities going bankrupt.....

 

[Mathbud1]

This is the part that concerns me. Are they really thinking that, or has this issue just not occurred to them?

I'm still hoping to get a clear and civil response.

.

It really really is concerning. You get the general feeling that people who support the "living wage" argument fall into two groups: those who haven't thought about it much beyond the emotional or superficial, and those who know it won't really help anything but want to use it as a political tool to get themselves or their "side" re-elected.

Like you said, I could be wrong. Maybe someone really has thought it through and has some concrete reasoning for why it won't cause any problems. I just haven't heard them yet.

You forgot the people that would benefit a little from the wage increase. The workers themselves. I have been at minimum wage and every little bit helps. However, I realized I simply had to make myself more valuable by acquiring better skills. That doesn't mean I would have turned down an increase.

True. I did forget to mention that point. I can't imagine ever saying no to a pay increase that didn't require me to work any harder.

 

[Againsheila]

Another problem with the "living wage" argument is that it shifts responsibility off of the individual. Essentially you are saying that it is not the individual's responsibility to provide for him/her self and/or family. You are moving that responsibility to either the company or to society in general. In either case you are shifting the responsibility away from where it should rest.

It the richest country in the world, the lowest paid worker should make a living wage. In truth the low wage workers in this country have a huge disadvantage. We bring in more immigrants than all other nations combined, and that's just the legal immigrants. Add the illegals and it's even worse. Since the 70's Americans have limited their birth rate to less than replacement value. If our government had kept our immigration rate at what it was in the 70's, the lowest paid workers would be making a lot of money right now as they would be in great demand.

We're not competing on a level field and it's killing us.