CDZ This is why the US needs a wall on it's southern border

[task0778]

I'd bet big money if I had any that Pelosi's residence has a big wall around it. I bet Schumer's does too, along with most other rich people and not just in this country either. There's a reason for that, it's called security. If you can afford it, you have a big, beautiful wall built around your home to protect yourself from vandals, thieves, and other miscreants. And that is pretty much the same reason that wealthier countries build border walls and fences, to keep people from entering their territory and causing them much trouble and expense.

It ain't like in the old days when you had to worry about a military attack, nobody thinks we will be under attack from Mexico anytime soon. But we are being systematically invaded, and there are attendant financial and other problems as a result. There's no question that America has a drug problem, and a lot of it comes across our southern border every day. Anybody want to argue that we also have an MS13 problem, with gangs and criminals also entering the US illegally from the south? And there is information from Terrorist Screening Center, the group behind terrorist watch lists, that there were 7,712 terrorist encounters in the US – in just the past year. Between July 2015 and July 2016, the majority of terrorist encounters (interactions with known or suspected terror watch list suspects by law enforcement) unsurprisingly occurred in border states, with Texas, California, and Arizona ranking among the highest.

Then there is the financial aspect, how much is it costing us in dollars to support all these people who are entering our country illegally across that border over the past several decades? And how many have been killed or raped, lives and families destroyed or forever changed by somebody who isn't here via legal avenues? Sure, there is a positive side, many of them have not been a burden and many have not hurt anyone or been a nuisance one way or another, but what about the people who are? Especially the ones that keep coming back? Why the hell aren't we making it as hard as possible to keep them out?

Which leads us to the WALL. Putting up a bigass wall with cameras, drones, and other equipment to detect illegal entries is a deterrent, to ent that is to deny reality. Otherwise, rich people wouldn't spend gobs of money to put them up around their residences. It doesn't guarantee 100% security, but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder. Pelosi, Schumer, and other Dems are on record as saying the wall is immoral, ineffective, and/or unnecessary, but they didn't think so when they voted for the Secure Fence Act in 2006, which mandated the construction of multilayer pedestrian fencing along about 600 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border. It passed with big, bipartisan majorities: 283 votes in the House and 80 in the Senate. Some top Democrats who are still in the Senate today supported the fence: Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Ron Wyden, Debbie Stabenow, and Sherrod Brown. Then Senator Obama did too, so WTF over?

What we oughta be doing is can the bullshit and develop and implement a comprehensive plan that reasonably secures that border and that should include a freakin' wall. And the message has to go out loud and clear, that wall is going to be big and hard to get over or dig under, because we're going to be looking for tunnels and blowing them up when we find them. There are several issues to resolve and it won't be a simple fix, but IMHO it's about effing time the US Gov't started doing it's job, specifically the US Congress.

There was a recent Gallup poll done a couple of weeks ago that listed Gov't and Immigration as the top 2 problems that most Americans think we have in this country. Every other issue was not even close. Think about that for a second, most Americans think our own gov't is our most pressing problem? Why do you think Trump got elected in the 1st place? It's mostly cuz there's a whole lot of people out there that really believe our politics is ruining this country, and I think the longer it takes to get our shit together the harder and more expensive it's going to be to right the ship.

 

[DandyDonovan]

I hate to break this to you, but if Trump were serious about a wall, we'd have one. He could EASILY declare it a matter of national defense and send in the military and use their enormous budget to get it done. And believe me the military has plenty of money if it chose to shift funds for such a thing.

Unfortunately he is not THAT serious about secure borders.

 

[pismoe]

I hate to break this to you, but if Trump were serious about a wall, we'd have one. He could EASILY declare it a matter of national defense and send in the military and use their enormous budget to get it done. And believe me the military has plenty of money if it chose to shift funds for such a thing.

Unfortunately he is not THAT serious about secure borders.

---------------------------- Sadly , i think that you are correct DDon .

 

[well named]

But we are being systematically invaded...

This does not appear to be true. See for example this recent Pew Report, based on various data collected by the Census Bureau:

"The declining overall number of unauthorized immigrants is due mainly to a very large drop in the number of new unauthorized immigrants, especially Mexicans, coming into the country. Consequently, today’s unauthorized immigrant population includes a smaller share of recent arrivals, especially from Mexico, than a decade earlier. Increasingly unauthorized immigrants are likely to be long-term U.S. residents: Two-thirds of adult unauthorized immigrants have lived in the country for more than 10 years."
​

They note another trend which is relevant to the question of building a wall as a form of border security: most new illegal immigration is likely a result of visa overstays:

"Not all unauthorized immigrants enter the U.S. without documents, as is true of most Mexicans and Central Americans. Many arrive with legal visas but overstay their required departure date. Among unauthorized immigrants in the Center’s estimates who arrived in the previous five years, the share who are likely to be people who overstayed their visas probably grew substantially between 2007 and 2016 – to the point where they probably constituted most of the recent unauthorized immigrant arrivals in 2016." (read the article for the various nuances in these estimates)​

...and there are attendant financial and other problems as a result.

This is often asserted but rarely really backed up with a good argument. It's common for people to cite some estimates of costs (i.e. cost of schooling or other benefits received by US citizen children of illegal immigrants) but make no effort to measure various benefits of immigration (immigrants pay taxes and themselves cannot receive most benefits; economic growth, etc.)

So, for example if you look for economic analyses of immigration you find studies like this one, which assessed the economic impacts of immigration into the US between 1980 and 2015. Their literature review is helpful by way of finding other studies and understanding some of the nuances in how this kind of research is done, but the big picture is this:

"We find that the baseline relationship between immigration and economic growth is positive, meaning that the U.S. states with larger immigration shares tend to have higher per capita GDP and per capita GDP growth. Hancock and McIntosh (2016) report a similar relationship among OECD countries. It is unclear whether immigration leads to faster growth or if growth induces more immigration." (p. 3)
​

I included the caveat about the direction of causality for this correlation but even leaving open that question it's obviously not the case that immigration is hurting the economy much at a macro level given that the overall correlation is positive.

They do find a slightly negative correlation between native employment levels and immigrant population, but other research has found that this effect is fairly limited because new waves of immigration tend to be competing with prior waves rather than with native-born populations. This is a reflection of the fairly intuitive fact that a lot of work being done by illegal immigrants is work that the native-born population has not been doing for a long time now. See for example Peri 2007:

"If U.S. States were independent countries, California would be the second largest receiving country for international migrants in the whole world (after Russia) with its 8.5 million foreign-born as of 2004. Moreover, its proximity to Mexico and a porous border generated extremely large flows of uneducated Mexican workers (documented and undocumented), at a growing rate, during the last three decades. With one third of its total labor force made up by immigrants, two thirds of its uneducated workers coming from abroad and a rapidly rising foreign-born population, that grew by 40% in the last 14 years, surely native Californians (particularly the unskilled ones) must have suffered the most from the negative effects of this ”immigration crisis” on their employment opportunities and wages.

The present study, that analyzes employment and wage data in California over the 1960-2004 period, seems to say otherwise. On one hand, immigrants do not seem to increase the tendency of natives with similar skills (education and experience) to migrate, or to otherwise change their likelihood of losing their jobs and dropping out of employment. On the other hand, the impact of immigration over the 1990-2004 period has been negative on the wages of previous immigrants and positive on the wages of U.S. natives, revealing a good degree of complementarity between U.S. and foreign-born workers that benefits (rather then harms) native workers’ productivity."​

Finally, you should consider the economic impacts (including cost) of the wall vs. other possible immigration policies aimed at curbing immigration levels. See for example the analysis from this recent NBER working paper (full text here), which analyzed the impact from border wall expansion as a result of the 2006 Secure Fence Act, and compared it to hypothetical policies which might have been enacted instead:

"At a construction cost of approximately $7 per person in the United States, we estimate that the border wall expansion harmed Mexican workers and high-skill U.S. workers, but benefited U.S. low-skill workers, who achieved gains equivalent to an increase in per capita income of $0.36. In contrast, a counterfactual policy which instead reduced trade costs between the United States and Mexico by 25% would have resulted in both greater declines in Mexico to United States migration and substantial welfare gains for all workers." (p. 2)
​

In other words, better trade policy might be economically better for American workers while also contributing to a greater decline in migration levels. That makes sense in the context of the trends discussed by Pew: the reason why immigration has declined over the last decade had a lot to do with the relative economic situations between the US and various countries. As Mexico's economy improved, especially relative to the 2008 financial collapse here, Mexico-US immigration declined. Because some Central American countries have been particularly unstable, immigration from those countries increased, although not even to make up the declines from Mexico.

​

 

[rightwinger]

Invaders don’t offer to mow your lawn

 

[toobfreak]

Invaders don’t offer to mow your lawn

You mean like how the government offers to help you do your taxes?

 

[toobfreak]

I'd bet big money if I had any that Pelosi's residence has a big wall around it.

Nancy used to live in the Presidio, then in Pacific Heights. This is the most exclusive creme de la creme of SF, and you don't need walls there. You don't get anywhere near the place without being invited, being stopped, proving who you are by lots of big scary guys in black SUVs. It is a wall without a wall. After all, gotta keep up the image of the community!

 

[task0778]

But we are being systematically invaded...

This does not appear to be true. See for example this recent Pew Report, based on various data collected by the Census Bureau:

"The declining overall number of unauthorized immigrants is due mainly to a very large drop in the number of new unauthorized immigrants, especially Mexicans, coming into the country. Consequently, today’s unauthorized immigrant population includes a smaller share of recent arrivals, especially from Mexico, than a decade earlier. Increasingly unauthorized immigrants are likely to be long-term U.S. residents: Two-thirds of adult unauthorized immigrants have lived in the country for more than 10 years."
​

They note another trend which is relevant to the question of building a wall as a form of border security: most new illegal immigration is likely a result of visa overstays:

"Not all unauthorized immigrants enter the U.S. without documents, as is true of most Mexicans and Central Americans. Many arrive with legal visas but overstay their required departure date. Among unauthorized immigrants in the Center’s estimates who arrived in the previous five years, the share who are likely to be people who overstayed their visas probably grew substantially between 2007 and 2016 – to the point where they probably constituted most of the recent unauthorized immigrant arrivals in 2016." (read the article for the various nuances in these estimates)​

...and there are attendant financial and other problems as a result.

This is often asserted but rarely really backed up with a good argument. It's common for people to cite some estimates of costs (i.e. cost of schooling or other benefits received by US citizen children of illegal immigrants) but make no effort to measure various benefits of immigration (immigrants pay taxes and themselves cannot receive most benefits; economic growth, etc.)

So, for example if you look for economic analyses of immigration you find studies like this one, which assessed the economic impacts of immigration into the US between 1980 and 2015. Their literature review is helpful by way of finding other studies and understanding some of the nuances in how this kind of research is done, but the big picture is this:

"We find that the baseline relationship between immigration and economic growth is positive, meaning that the U.S. states with larger immigration shares tend to have higher per capita GDP and per capita GDP growth. Hancock and McIntosh (2016) report a similar relationship among OECD countries. It is unclear whether immigration leads to faster growth or if growth induces more immigration." (p. 3)
​

I included the caveat about the direction of causality for this correlation but even leaving open that question it's obviously not the case that immigration is hurting the economy much at a macro level given that the overall correlation is positive.

They do find a slightly negative correlation between native employment levels and immigrant population, but other research has found that this effect is fairly limited because new waves of immigration tend to be competing with prior waves rather than with native-born populations. This is a reflection of the fairly intuitive fact that a lot of work being done by illegal immigrants is work that the native-born population has not been doing for a long time now. See for example Peri 2007:

"If U.S. States were independent countries, California would be the second largest receiving country for international migrants in the whole world (after Russia) with its 8.5 million foreign-born as of 2004. Moreover, its proximity to Mexico and a porous border generated extremely large flows of uneducated Mexican workers (documented and undocumented), at a growing rate, during the last three decades. With one third of its total labor force made up by immigrants, two thirds of its uneducated workers coming from abroad and a rapidly rising foreign-born population, that grew by 40% in the last 14 years, surely native Californians (particularly the unskilled ones) must have suffered the most from the negative effects of this ”immigration crisis” on their employment opportunities and wages.

The present study, that analyzes employment and wage data in California over the 1960-2004 period, seems to say otherwise. On one hand, immigrants do not seem to increase the tendency of natives with similar skills (education and experience) to migrate, or to otherwise change their likelihood of losing their jobs and dropping out of employment. On the other hand, the impact of immigration over the 1990-2004 period has been negative on the wages of previous immigrants and positive on the wages of U.S. natives, revealing a good degree of complementarity between U.S. and foreign-born workers that benefits (rather then harms) native workers’ productivity."​

Finally, you should consider the economic impacts (including cost) of the wall vs. other possible immigration policies aimed at curbing immigration levels. See for example the analysis from this recent NBER working paper (full text here), which analyzed the impact from border wall expansion as a result of the 2006 Secure Fence Act, and compared it to hypothetical policies which might have been enacted instead:

"At a construction cost of approximately $7 per person in the United States, we estimate that the border wall expansion harmed Mexican workers and high-skill U.S. workers, but benefited U.S. low-skill workers, who achieved gains equivalent to an increase in per capita income of $0.36. In contrast, a counterfactual policy which instead reduced trade costs between the United States and Mexico by 25% would have resulted in both greater declines in Mexico to United States migration and substantial welfare gains for all workers." (p. 2)
​

In other words, better trade policy might be economically better for American workers while also contributing to a greater decline in migration levels. That makes sense in the context of the trends discussed by Pew: the reason why immigration has declined over the last decade had a lot to do with the relative economic situations between the US and various countries. As Mexico's economy improved, especially relative to the 2008 financial collapse here, Mexico-US immigration declined. Because some Central American countries have been particularly unstable, immigration from those countries increased, although not even to make up the declines from Mexico.

​

Unfortunately, the U.S. government has no central database containing information on the citizenship status of everyone lawfully present in the United States. The overall problem of estimating the illegal alien population is further complicated by the fact that the majority of available sources on immigration status rely on self-reported data. Given that illegal aliens have a motive to lie about their immigration status, in order to avoid discovery, the accuracy of these statistics is dubious, at best. All of the foregoing issues make it very difficult to assess the current illegal alien population of the United States.

However, FAIR now estimates that there are approximately 12.5 million illegal alien residents. This number uses FAIR’s previous estimates but adjusts for suspected changes in levels of unlawful migration, based on information available from the Department of Homeland Security, data available from other federal and state government agencies, and other research studies completed by reliable think tanks, universities, and other research organizations.

[Task: Some estimate the number of illegals to be much higher]

The Cost of Illegal Immigration to the United States

At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion. This is a disturbing and unsustainable trend.

The Cost of Illegal Immigration to US Taxpayers | FAIR

And then there's this:

What price do you put on each American who has been molested, raped, killed, or murdered by an illegal alien?


AND:

Deporting the country’s estimated 11 million illegal immigrants would cost nearly $125 billion, but allowing them to remain in the U.S. could cost taxpayers far more, according to a new report being released Thursday by a think tank that wants to see stricter immigration limits.

Steven A. Camarota, research director at the Center for Immigration Studies, crunched the numbers and found that the current population of illegal immigrants will drain nearly $750 billion from taxpayers over their lifetimes — amounting to six times the deportation costs.

Illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $750 billion over lifetime: Report


And also this:

The state and local costs of illegal migration are amplified by the fact that illegal immigrants remit much of their earnings to their home nations. FAIR estimates that nearly 20 percent of the average household income of illegal immigrants is remitted back to their home nations. Annually, this totals approximately $7,200 per illegal immigrant household that is not spent in the United States, and therefore is not subject to the sales or excise taxes that fund state treasuries.
The cost of illegal immigration to taxpayers is growing at an unsustainable pace

 

[debbiedowner]

What price do you put on each American who has been molested, raped, killed, or murdered by an illegal alien?

While I agree with your statement what is the percentage of these happenings compared to the molestation, rapes, murder by your next door neighbor, relative, priests and men of religion and other U.S. citizen's.

 

[task0778]

What price do you put on each American who has been molested, raped, killed, or murdered by an illegal alien?

While I agree with your statement what is the percentage of these happenings compared to the molestation, rapes, murder by your next door neighbor, relative, priests and men of religion and other U.S. citizen's.

Do you believe the percentage of crimes by illegals, however small it is, means we should ignore the problem? Like, "well it's only one in a hundred so let's ignore the fact that some people are raped or murdered by illegals because so many more others are raped and killed by someone who isn't an illegal"? What's the number at which we say, well now it's a problem, let's do something about it? Chances are, if you ask the families of those who lost a loved one who was raped or killed by an illegal, their response might be a tad different.

 

[BlackFlag]

I'd bet big money if I had any that Pelosi's residence has a big wall around it. I bet Schumer's does too, along with most other rich people and not just in this country either. There's a reason for that, it's called security. If you can afford it, you have a big, beautiful wall built around your home to protect yourself from vandals, thieves, and other miscreants. And that is pretty much the same reason that wealthier countries build border walls and fences, to keep people from entering their territory and causing them much trouble and expense.

It ain't like in the old days when you had to worry about a military attack, nobody thinks we will be under attack from Mexico anytime soon. But we are being systematically invaded, and there are attendant financial and other problems as a result. There's no question that America has a drug problem, and a lot of it comes across our southern border every day. Anybody want to argue that we also have an MS13 problem, with gangs and criminals also entering the US illegally from the south? And there is information from Terrorist Screening Center, the group behind terrorist watch lists, that there were 7,712 terrorist encounters in the US – in just the past year. Between July 2015 and July 2016, the majority of terrorist encounters (interactions with known or suspected terror watch list suspects by law enforcement) unsurprisingly occurred in border states, with Texas, California, and Arizona ranking among the highest.

Then there is the financial aspect, how much is it costing us in dollars to support all these people who are entering our country illegally across that border over the past several decades? And how many have been killed or raped, lives and families destroyed or forever changed by somebody who isn't here via legal avenues? Sure, there is a positive side, many of them have not been a burden and many have not hurt anyone or been a nuisance one way or another, but what about the people who are? Especially the ones that keep coming back? Why the hell aren't we making it as hard as possible to keep them out?

Which leads us to the WALL. Putting up a bigass wall with cameras, drones, and other equipment to detect illegal entries is a deterrent, to ent that is to deny reality. Otherwise, rich people wouldn't spend gobs of money to put them up around their residences. It doesn't guarantee 100% security, but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder. Pelosi, Schumer, and other Dems are on record as saying the wall is immoral, ineffective, and/or unnecessary, but they didn't think so when they voted for the Secure Fence Act in 2006, which mandated the construction of multilayer pedestrian fencing along about 600 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border. It passed with big, bipartisan majorities: 283 votes in the House and 80 in the Senate. Some top Democrats who are still in the Senate today supported the fence: Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Ron Wyden, Debbie Stabenow, and Sherrod Brown. Then Senator Obama did too, so WTF over?

What we oughta be doing is can the bullshit and develop and implement a comprehensive plan that reasonably secures that border and that should include a freakin' wall. And the message has to go out loud and clear, that wall is going to be big and hard to get over or dig under, because we're going to be looking for tunnels and blowing them up when we find them. There are several issues to resolve and it won't be a simple fix, but IMHO it's about effing time the US Gov't started doing it's job, specifically the US Congress.

There was a recent Gallup poll done a couple of weeks ago that listed Gov't and Immigration as the top 2 problems that most Americans think we have in this country. Every other issue was not even close. Think about that for a second, most Americans think our own gov't is our most pressing problem? Why do you think Trump got elected in the 1st place? It's mostly cuz there's a whole lot of people out there that really believe our politics is ruining this country, and I think the longer it takes to get our shit together the harder and more expensive it's going to be to right the ship.

Nancy Pelosi's wall wouldn't stop somebody fleeing a war zone from getting over.

 

[danielpalos]

I'd bet big money if I had any that Pelosi's residence has a big wall around it. I bet Schumer's does too, along with most other rich people and not just in this country either. There's a reason for that, it's called security. If you can afford it, you have a big, beautiful wall built around your home to protect yourself from vandals, thieves, and other miscreants. And that is pretty much the same reason that wealthier countries build border walls and fences, to keep people from entering their territory and causing them much trouble and expense.

It ain't like in the old days when you had to worry about a military attack, nobody thinks we will be under attack from Mexico anytime soon. But we are being systematically invaded, and there are attendant financial and other problems as a result. There's no question that America has a drug problem, and a lot of it comes across our southern border every day. Anybody want to argue that we also have an MS13 problem, with gangs and criminals also entering the US illegally from the south? And there is information from Terrorist Screening Center, the group behind terrorist watch lists, that there were 7,712 terrorist encounters in the US – in just the past year. Between July 2015 and July 2016, the majority of terrorist encounters (interactions with known or suspected terror watch list suspects by law enforcement) unsurprisingly occurred in border states, with Texas, California, and Arizona ranking among the highest.

Then there is the financial aspect, how much is it costing us in dollars to support all these people who are entering our country illegally across that border over the past several decades? And how many have been killed or raped, lives and families destroyed or forever changed by somebody who isn't here via legal avenues? Sure, there is a positive side, many of them have not been a burden and many have not hurt anyone or been a nuisance one way or another, but what about the people who are? Especially the ones that keep coming back? Why the hell aren't we making it as hard as possible to keep them out?

Which leads us to the WALL. Putting up a bigass wall with cameras, drones, and other equipment to detect illegal entries is a deterrent, to ent that is to deny reality. Otherwise, rich people wouldn't spend gobs of money to put them up around their residences. It doesn't guarantee 100% security, but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder. Pelosi, Schumer, and other Dems are on record as saying the wall is immoral, ineffective, and/or unnecessary, but they didn't think so when they voted for the Secure Fence Act in 2006, which mandated the construction of multilayer pedestrian fencing along about 600 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border. It passed with big, bipartisan majorities: 283 votes in the House and 80 in the Senate. Some top Democrats who are still in the Senate today supported the fence: Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Ron Wyden, Debbie Stabenow, and Sherrod Brown. Then Senator Obama did too, so WTF over?

What we oughta be doing is can the bullshit and develop and implement a comprehensive plan that reasonably secures that border and that should include a freakin' wall. And the message has to go out loud and clear, that wall is going to be big and hard to get over or dig under, because we're going to be looking for tunnels and blowing them up when we find them. There are several issues to resolve and it won't be a simple fix, but IMHO it's about effing time the US Gov't started doing it's job, specifically the US Congress.

There was a recent Gallup poll done a couple of weeks ago that listed Gov't and Immigration as the top 2 problems that most Americans think we have in this country. Every other issue was not even close. Think about that for a second, most Americans think our own gov't is our most pressing problem? Why do you think Trump got elected in the 1st place? It's mostly cuz there's a whole lot of people out there that really believe our politics is ruining this country, and I think the longer it takes to get our shit together the harder and more expensive it's going to be to right the ship.

we don't have a common defense problem it is a refugee problem.

 

[Moonglow]

I'd bet big money if I had any that Pelosi's residence has a big wall around it. I bet Schumer's does too, along with most other rich people and not just in this country either. There's a reason for that, it's called security. If you can afford it, you have a big, beautiful wall built around your home to protect yourself from vandals, thieves, and other miscreants. And that is pretty much the same reason that wealthier countries build border walls and fences, to keep people from entering their territory and causing them much trouble and expense.

It ain't like in the old days when you had to worry about a military attack, nobody thinks we will be under attack from Mexico anytime soon. But we are being systematically invaded, and there are attendant financial and other problems as a result. There's no question that America has a drug problem, and a lot of it comes across our southern border every day. Anybody want to argue that we also have an MS13 problem, with gangs and criminals also entering the US illegally from the south? And there is information from Terrorist Screening Center, the group behind terrorist watch lists, that there were 7,712 terrorist encounters in the US – in just the past year. Between July 2015 and July 2016, the majority of terrorist encounters (interactions with known or suspected terror watch list suspects by law enforcement) unsurprisingly occurred in border states, with Texas, California, and Arizona ranking among the highest.

Then there is the financial aspect, how much is it costing us in dollars to support all these people who are entering our country illegally across that border over the past several decades? And how many have been killed or raped, lives and families destroyed or forever changed by somebody who isn't here via legal avenues? Sure, there is a positive side, many of them have not been a burden and many have not hurt anyone or been a nuisance one way or another, but what about the people who are? Especially the ones that keep coming back? Why the hell aren't we making it as hard as possible to keep them out?

Which leads us to the WALL. Putting up a bigass wall with cameras, drones, and other equipment to detect illegal entries is a deterrent, to ent that is to deny reality. Otherwise, rich people wouldn't spend gobs of money to put them up around their residences. It doesn't guarantee 100% security, but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder. Pelosi, Schumer, and other Dems are on record as saying the wall is immoral, ineffective, and/or unnecessary, but they didn't think so when they voted for the Secure Fence Act in 2006, which mandated the construction of multilayer pedestrian fencing along about 600 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border. It passed with big, bipartisan majorities: 283 votes in the House and 80 in the Senate. Some top Democrats who are still in the Senate today supported the fence: Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Ron Wyden, Debbie Stabenow, and Sherrod Brown. Then Senator Obama did too, so WTF over?

What we oughta be doing is can the bullshit and develop and implement a comprehensive plan that reasonably secures that border and that should include a freakin' wall. And the message has to go out loud and clear, that wall is going to be big and hard to get over or dig under, because we're going to be looking for tunnels and blowing them up when we find them. There are several issues to resolve and it won't be a simple fix, but IMHO it's about effing time the US Gov't started doing it's job, specifically the US Congress.

There was a recent Gallup poll done a couple of weeks ago that listed Gov't and Immigration as the top 2 problems that most Americans think we have in this country. Every other issue was not even close. Think about that for a second, most Americans think our own gov't is our most pressing problem? Why do you think Trump got elected in the 1st place? It's mostly cuz there's a whole lot of people out there that really believe our politics is ruining this country, and I think the longer it takes to get our shit together the harder and more expensive it's going to be to right the ship.

The biggest problem is the laws that allow these people to come here and stay. A wall will not stop the people from coming...

 

[danielpalos]

What price do you put on each American who has been molested, raped, killed, or murdered by an illegal alien?

While I agree with your statement what is the percentage of these happenings compared to the molestation, rapes, murder by your next door neighbor, relative, priests and men of religion and other U.S. citizen's.

we really should abolish our offensive wars on crime, drugs, and terror if we need a wall. Those common offense programs must be useless and worthless, if we need a Wall.

 

[Moonglow]

I'd bet big money if I had any that Pelosi's residence has a big wall around it. I bet Schumer's does too, along with most other rich people and not just in this country either. There's a reason for that, it's called security. If you can afford it, you have a big, beautiful wall built around your home to protect yourself from vandals, thieves, and other miscreants. And that is pretty much the same reason that wealthier countries build border walls and fences, to keep people from entering their territory and causing them much trouble and expense.

It ain't like in the old days when you had to worry about a military attack, nobody thinks we will be under attack from Mexico anytime soon. But we are being systematically invaded, and there are attendant financial and other problems as a result. There's no question that America has a drug problem, and a lot of it comes across our southern border every day. Anybody want to argue that we also have an MS13 problem, with gangs and criminals also entering the US illegally from the south? And there is information from Terrorist Screening Center, the group behind terrorist watch lists, that there were 7,712 terrorist encounters in the US – in just the past year. Between July 2015 and July 2016, the majority of terrorist encounters (interactions with known or suspected terror watch list suspects by law enforcement) unsurprisingly occurred in border states, with Texas, California, and Arizona ranking among the highest.

Then there is the financial aspect, how much is it costing us in dollars to support all these people who are entering our country illegally across that border over the past several decades? And how many have been killed or raped, lives and families destroyed or forever changed by somebody who isn't here via legal avenues? Sure, there is a positive side, many of them have not been a burden and many have not hurt anyone or been a nuisance one way or another, but what about the people who are? Especially the ones that keep coming back? Why the hell aren't we making it as hard as possible to keep them out?

Which leads us to the WALL. Putting up a bigass wall with cameras, drones, and other equipment to detect illegal entries is a deterrent, to ent that is to deny reality. Otherwise, rich people wouldn't spend gobs of money to put them up around their residences. It doesn't guarantee 100% security, but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder. Pelosi, Schumer, and other Dems are on record as saying the wall is immoral, ineffective, and/or unnecessary, but they didn't think so when they voted for the Secure Fence Act in 2006, which mandated the construction of multilayer pedestrian fencing along about 600 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border. It passed with big, bipartisan majorities: 283 votes in the House and 80 in the Senate. Some top Democrats who are still in the Senate today supported the fence: Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Ron Wyden, Debbie Stabenow, and Sherrod Brown. Then Senator Obama did too, so WTF over?

What we oughta be doing is can the bullshit and develop and implement a comprehensive plan that reasonably secures that border and that should include a freakin' wall. And the message has to go out loud and clear, that wall is going to be big and hard to get over or dig under, because we're going to be looking for tunnels and blowing them up when we find them. There are several issues to resolve and it won't be a simple fix, but IMHO it's about effing time the US Gov't started doing it's job, specifically the US Congress.

There was a recent Gallup poll done a couple of weeks ago that listed Gov't and Immigration as the top 2 problems that most Americans think we have in this country. Every other issue was not even close. Think about that for a second, most Americans think our own gov't is our most pressing problem? Why do you think Trump got elected in the 1st place? It's mostly cuz there's a whole lot of people out there that really believe our politics is ruining this country, and I think the longer it takes to get our shit together the harder and more expensive it's going to be to right the ship.

Nancy Pelosi's wall wouldn't stop somebody fleeing a war zone from getting over.

I could blow a hole in it if necessary.

 

[Moonglow]

Invaders don’t offer to mow your lawn

Bummer and they don't do windows.

 

[BlackFlag]

I'd bet big money if I had any that Pelosi's residence has a big wall around it. I bet Schumer's does too, along with most other rich people and not just in this country either. There's a reason for that, it's called security. If you can afford it, you have a big, beautiful wall built around your home to protect yourself from vandals, thieves, and other miscreants. And that is pretty much the same reason that wealthier countries build border walls and fences, to keep people from entering their territory and causing them much trouble and expense.

It ain't like in the old days when you had to worry about a military attack, nobody thinks we will be under attack from Mexico anytime soon. But we are being systematically invaded, and there are attendant financial and other problems as a result. There's no question that America has a drug problem, and a lot of it comes across our southern border every day. Anybody want to argue that we also have an MS13 problem, with gangs and criminals also entering the US illegally from the south? And there is information from Terrorist Screening Center, the group behind terrorist watch lists, that there were 7,712 terrorist encounters in the US – in just the past year. Between July 2015 and July 2016, the majority of terrorist encounters (interactions with known or suspected terror watch list suspects by law enforcement) unsurprisingly occurred in border states, with Texas, California, and Arizona ranking among the highest.

Then there is the financial aspect, how much is it costing us in dollars to support all these people who are entering our country illegally across that border over the past several decades? And how many have been killed or raped, lives and families destroyed or forever changed by somebody who isn't here via legal avenues? Sure, there is a positive side, many of them have not been a burden and many have not hurt anyone or been a nuisance one way or another, but what about the people who are? Especially the ones that keep coming back? Why the hell aren't we making it as hard as possible to keep them out?

Which leads us to the WALL. Putting up a bigass wall with cameras, drones, and other equipment to detect illegal entries is a deterrent, to ent that is to deny reality. Otherwise, rich people wouldn't spend gobs of money to put them up around their residences. It doesn't guarantee 100% security, but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder. Pelosi, Schumer, and other Dems are on record as saying the wall is immoral, ineffective, and/or unnecessary, but they didn't think so when they voted for the Secure Fence Act in 2006, which mandated the construction of multilayer pedestrian fencing along about 600 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border. It passed with big, bipartisan majorities: 283 votes in the House and 80 in the Senate. Some top Democrats who are still in the Senate today supported the fence: Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Ron Wyden, Debbie Stabenow, and Sherrod Brown. Then Senator Obama did too, so WTF over?

What we oughta be doing is can the bullshit and develop and implement a comprehensive plan that reasonably secures that border and that should include a freakin' wall. And the message has to go out loud and clear, that wall is going to be big and hard to get over or dig under, because we're going to be looking for tunnels and blowing them up when we find them. There are several issues to resolve and it won't be a simple fix, but IMHO it's about effing time the US Gov't started doing it's job, specifically the US Congress.

There was a recent Gallup poll done a couple of weeks ago that listed Gov't and Immigration as the top 2 problems that most Americans think we have in this country. Every other issue was not even close. Think about that for a second, most Americans think our own gov't is our most pressing problem? Why do you think Trump got elected in the 1st place? It's mostly cuz there's a whole lot of people out there that really believe our politics is ruining this country, and I think the longer it takes to get our shit together the harder and more expensive it's going to be to right the ship.

Nancy Pelosi's wall wouldn't stop somebody fleeing a war zone from getting over.

I could blow a hole in it if necessary.

You could just borrow my ladder

 

[Moonglow]

I'd bet big money if I had any that Pelosi's residence has a big wall around it. I bet Schumer's does too, along with most other rich people and not just in this country either. There's a reason for that, it's called security. If you can afford it, you have a big, beautiful wall built around your home to protect yourself from vandals, thieves, and other miscreants. And that is pretty much the same reason that wealthier countries build border walls and fences, to keep people from entering their territory and causing them much trouble and expense.

It ain't like in the old days when you had to worry about a military attack, nobody thinks we will be under attack from Mexico anytime soon. But we are being systematically invaded, and there are attendant financial and other problems as a result. There's no question that America has a drug problem, and a lot of it comes across our southern border every day. Anybody want to argue that we also have an MS13 problem, with gangs and criminals also entering the US illegally from the south? And there is information from Terrorist Screening Center, the group behind terrorist watch lists, that there were 7,712 terrorist encounters in the US – in just the past year. Between July 2015 and July 2016, the majority of terrorist encounters (interactions with known or suspected terror watch list suspects by law enforcement) unsurprisingly occurred in border states, with Texas, California, and Arizona ranking among the highest.

Then there is the financial aspect, how much is it costing us in dollars to support all these people who are entering our country illegally across that border over the past several decades? And how many have been killed or raped, lives and families destroyed or forever changed by somebody who isn't here via legal avenues? Sure, there is a positive side, many of them have not been a burden and many have not hurt anyone or been a nuisance one way or another, but what about the people who are? Especially the ones that keep coming back? Why the hell aren't we making it as hard as possible to keep them out?

Which leads us to the WALL. Putting up a bigass wall with cameras, drones, and other equipment to detect illegal entries is a deterrent, to ent that is to deny reality. Otherwise, rich people wouldn't spend gobs of money to put them up around their residences. It doesn't guarantee 100% security, but it sure as hell makes it a lot harder. Pelosi, Schumer, and other Dems are on record as saying the wall is immoral, ineffective, and/or unnecessary, but they didn't think so when they voted for the Secure Fence Act in 2006, which mandated the construction of multilayer pedestrian fencing along about 600 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border. It passed with big, bipartisan majorities: 283 votes in the House and 80 in the Senate. Some top Democrats who are still in the Senate today supported the fence: Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Ron Wyden, Debbie Stabenow, and Sherrod Brown. Then Senator Obama did too, so WTF over?

What we oughta be doing is can the bullshit and develop and implement a comprehensive plan that reasonably secures that border and that should include a freakin' wall. And the message has to go out loud and clear, that wall is going to be big and hard to get over or dig under, because we're going to be looking for tunnels and blowing them up when we find them. There are several issues to resolve and it won't be a simple fix, but IMHO it's about effing time the US Gov't started doing it's job, specifically the US Congress.

There was a recent Gallup poll done a couple of weeks ago that listed Gov't and Immigration as the top 2 problems that most Americans think we have in this country. Every other issue was not even close. Think about that for a second, most Americans think our own gov't is our most pressing problem? Why do you think Trump got elected in the 1st place? It's mostly cuz there's a whole lot of people out there that really believe our politics is ruining this country, and I think the longer it takes to get our shit together the harder and more expensive it's going to be to right the ship.

Nancy Pelosi's wall wouldn't stop somebody fleeing a war zone from getting over.

I could blow a hole in it if necessary.

You could just borrow my ladder

What fun is that? Parachute or motorized hang glider will work and impress the ladies..

 

[Moonglow]

Before you know it they will have human kite flying for those wishing to get over the fence...During hurricane season it will be busy.

 

[well named]

The Cost of Illegal Immigration to the United States...

You're doing exactly what I mentioned before:

It's common for people to cite some estimates of costs (i.e. cost of schooling or other benefits received by US citizen children of illegal immigrants) but make no effort to measure various benefits of immigration (immigrants pay taxes and themselves cannot receive most benefits; economic growth, etc.)

That's why I provided citations to research that actually takes those benefits into account, e.g. from the NBER study:

"Taken together, this suggests that for each fewer migrant in the United States as a result of the Secure Fence Act, GDP declined by $30,000 (in addition to the direct costs of wall construction)."​

See also Politifact, which provides a useful summary of how research like the pieces you've cited are misrepresented:

The National Academies found that first-generation immigrants (who were born outside of the United States) cost governments more money than the native-born population. The costs are largely taken on by state and local governments that educate the immigrants’ children.

But members of the second generation "are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors in the U.S. population," the report said, with tax contributions greater than their parents and the native-born population.
​

The entirety of the "Economic and fiscal impacts" section is helpful, for more nuance.

Also, part of the point I was making is that even if you take it as a given that a reduction in immigration levels (legal or illegal) is desirable it is still the case that a wall is probably not the best way of accomplishing it. That's what Allen et al (2018) suggests.

You also didn't really attempt to justify your claim that we're experiencing an invasion or any increasing trend in migration levels that constitute some kind of crisis.