This is what gets me -- Do as we say, not as we do.

So your answer is that manufacturers and retailers eat the tax - by either lowering quality via cheaper materials, lower costs (lay off workers), or lower returns on capital.

Great. Another wealth and income transfer to the government. In reality, supply will shrink as some suppliers decide that it is not worth it to be non-profit. Prices will remain high as consumers compete for fewer goods.

I don't agree with you and yes, that is my answer. Ever been to a Macy's store when they are trying to clear out the winter clothing to make room for the swim suits? "RED TAGS" every where.

Edit: and don't make it sound like I am in support of a VAT either.
Immie
 
Discounting for inventory management is far different than burdening every product with a 20% tax.

You are trying to make a case that taxes have no impact on behavior. Reality proves you wrong.
 
Discounting for inventory management is far different than burdening every product with a 20% tax.

You are trying to make a case that taxes have no impact on behavior. Reality proves you wrong.

No, I am making the case that we live in a Capitalistic society and the worth of a product is directly related to the price that a buyer is willing to pay for it.

Immie
 
Please read up on supply an demand. Increasing costs by 20% changes the dynamic.

Either some consumers will balk at the higher price - or some suppliers will decide to exit the market.

VAT will not be benign have a benign effect on the market.
 
Please read up on supply an demand. Increasing costs by 20% changes the dynamic.

Either some consumers will balk at the higher price - or some suppliers will decide to exit the market.

VAT will not be benign have a benign effect on the market.

What? What the hell does that mean?

And you are exactly right, consumers will balk at the price, items will remain on the shelf and eventually retailers will begin to drop their prices in order to make room for new inventory. Within a couple of inventory turnovers, the prices will begin to stabilize.

That is the idea behind a capitalistic society.

Immie
 
No. Burdening products with a 20% tax has nothing to do with Capitalism.

You really do not grok supply and demand.
 
No. Burdening products with a 20% tax has nothing to do with Capitalism.

You really do not grok supply and demand.

Since grok is not a word, I can only say that I do understand supply and demand.

When the price goes up demand goes down.

Nothing hard to understand about that.

Immie
 
Immi, people will significantly slow discretionary spending which will significantly affect the economy. Competition always provides the best price, so manufacturers would have no choice but to pass on the tax. Big, high volume retailers may be able to absorb some but not all.

Many people believe taxing corporations, ie, making them pay their fair share, is somehow lowering the individuals tax burden. It is not true. Each and every tax, I don't care what the government says, is paid by the individual American tax payer. A tax on medical devices is passed on to consumers. A tax on drugs is passed on to consumers. A tax on (you name it) is passed on to consumers.

A tax is a tax is a tax is a............
 
Immi, people will significantly slow discretionary spending which will significantly affect the economy. Competition always provides the best price, so manufacturers would have no choice but to pass on the tax. Big, high volume retailers may be able to absorb some but not all.

Many people believe taxing corporations, ie, making them pay their fair share, is somehow lowering the individuals tax burden. It is not true. Each and every tax, I don't care what the government says, is paid by the individual American tax payer. A tax on medical devices is passed on to consumers. A tax on drugs is passed on to consumers. A tax on (you name it) is passed on to consumers.

A tax is a tax is a tax is a............

If you read my posts regarding this discussion from the beginning you will find (despite what Boedicca has implied recently) that I do not support the idea of a VAT.

My point was that much like the implementation of the Fair Tax, if a VAT were instituted it would not take long for the price to adjust to a point that the consumer will pay for a particular item.

I'm not going to pay $240 for a $200 suit regardless of how much of that is tax and how much of it is product. So, the retailer is going to have to adjust his sales price to induce me to purchase that suit and if he doesn't adjust the price of that suit to such a point that consumers will buy it, it is going to sit on his racks until he either adjusts his price or returns it to the manufacturer. Eventually, the price of suits are going to come down to what consumers are going to pay for them.

Corporations collect the tax, consumers pay those taxes every time. A VAT would be no different at all. But, still consumers are going to balk at paying the higher prices on anything except the bare necessities.

Again, I'm not advocating the VAT, unless maybe it REPLACED the current system, but I think the economics back me up on this, consumers are not going to agree to pay an extra 20% if they can't afford such items they are not going to buy them and retailers are not going to hang on to them so they are going to have to bring the price down to something that the consumer will pay.

Immie
 
I hate to run out on this discussion as I have enjoyed it with both of you, but, it is quarter after one here and I am getting tired and if I don't bail now, before I know it, it is going to be 5am and I'm going to be cursing both of you out.

So, if I don't reply tonight, please forgive me.

If, I'm lucky, I will have the willpower not to look and see if you posted between my last and this one before I shut down my computer. :lol:

Immie
 
I understand that you are not advocating a VAT. You are right, a retailer must move his product, but if he takes a loss, is he going to buy new product from the manufacturer knowing that it's still 20% higher.

If a manufacturer makes a widget and materials and labor for 1 widget is 95 cents and his competition is selling the same widget to retailers for a dollar, then he must sell for a dollar or less. Along comes a 20% VAT which increases his cost to build the widget to $1.00. In order to make a profit, he must raise his price to retailers.

A manufacturer would have to make the widget with less expensive materials (lower quality) or get more productivity from his workforce to keep the price unchanged. Retailers face the same set of circumstances.
 
So you really believe tha the governemt has taxed water and sugar becuase of it's negative effect on soceity?
We still haven't discovered why you're so upset about this.

It's not bashing, it's not calling for anyone's head, it's just pointing out that the man who said he wanted to "project a sense of confidence" doesn't have a brain one in his staff who says, "Uh, Mr. president let's get all the water bottles and coke cans out of here before we allow pictures" at the VERY least!

That's not even addressing whether they have them there or not.

It's this kind of brain-deadedness that had them flying air force one and fighter jets over lower Manhattan.

NOT the change we were looking for.
Try this - the government is trying everything they can to off set the deficit
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

They think they will raise more revenue by taxing more. It never works, never has. But it's nice to see you realize they are going to tax the piss out of the poor and middle class, so they can say they justified MORE spending and much larger and intrusive government.

Where instead, they should be CUTTING SPENDING.
 
SANDY HOOK -- Thirsty people have replaced smokers as the top litterers on New Jersey’s beaches, according to a report released today by a coalition of environmental organizations.

Plastic bottle caps and lids accounted for 11 percent of the trash volunteers collected along the Jersey shoreline during two beach sweeps last year, overtaking cigarette butts as the leading type of litter collected during Clean Ocean Action’s biannual beach sweeps several years running, according to the group’s annual report.

N.J. beach 'Dirty Dozen' report is topped by water bottles, caps | - NJ.com

When we were discussing "outdoor smoking bans" the argument was against litter. I guess the same argument could be put forth about plastic water bottles. Just sayin...
 
So you really believe tha the governemt has taxed water and sugar becuase of it's negative effect on soceity?
We still haven't discovered why you're so upset about this.

It's not bashing, it's not calling for anyone's head, it's just pointing out that the man who said he wanted to "project a sense of confidence" doesn't have a brain one in his staff who says, "Uh, Mr. president let's get all the water bottles and coke cans out of here before we allow pictures" at the VERY least!

That's not even addressing whether they have them there or not.

It's this kind of brain-deadedness that had them flying air force one and fighter jets over lower Manhattan.

NOT the change we were looking for.
Try this - the government is trying everything they can to off set the deficit
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

They think they will raise more revenue by taxing more. It never works, never has. But it's nice to see you realize they are going to tax the piss out of the poor and middle class, so they can say they justified MORE spending and much larger and intrusive government.

Where instead, they should be CUTTING SPENDING.

Another ridiculous non issue....... If the Obama administration were pushing to end bottled drinks there could be claims of hypocrisy. However, bottled and canned drinks have been imbedded in our society for 100 years and are common in executve meetings.
To expect our top executives to forego having something to drink during a meeting is petty
 
So you really believe tha the governemt has taxed water and sugar becuase of it's negative effect on soceity?
We still haven't discovered why you're so upset about this.

It's not bashing, it's not calling for anyone's head, it's just pointing out that the man who said he wanted to "project a sense of confidence" doesn't have a brain one in his staff who says, "Uh, Mr. president let's get all the water bottles and coke cans out of here before we allow pictures" at the VERY least!

That's not even addressing whether they have them there or not.

It's this kind of brain-deadedness that had them flying air force one and fighter jets over lower Manhattan.

NOT the change we were looking for.
Try this - the government is trying everything they can to off set the deficit
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

They think they will raise more revenue by taxing more. It never works, never has. But it's nice to see you realize they are going to tax the piss out of the poor and middle class, so they can say they justified MORE spending and much larger and intrusive government.

Where instead, they should be CUTTING SPENDING.

Another ridiculous non issue....... If the Obama administration were pushing to end bottled drinks there could be claims of hypocrisy. However, bottled and canned drinks have been imbedded in our society for 100 years and are common in executve meetings.
To expect our top executives to forego having something to drink during a meeting is petty
Reading is your friend, I addressed the "hypocrisy" issue early on in the thread. There's also nowhere in the thread where I claim the Obama Admin was pushing to end bottled water.

I also never suggested they shouldn't have drinks available. In fact, I named the green way to have them.

Another straw man burned down.
 

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