They shoot children, don't they?

[5stringJeff]

I see. So the UN is the determining factor in what is and is not legitimate? Right and Wrong have nothing to do with it?

Well, you tell me. Have you not derided for Bush going to war against Saddam because the UN didn't sanction it? But yet you also cry about Israel, even though it was sanctioned by the UN. So which is it - is a UN resolution satisfactory for an action to take place? If so, quit whining about Israel's existence. If not, quit whining about Bush going to war against Saddam without UN approval.

 

[dilloduck]

Wade, your posts have the term 'Zionist' more times than a Hamas press release.

Is the word "Zionist" offensive?

 

[5stringJeff]

Is the word "Zionist" offensive?

No, but the fact that Wade uses "Zionist" instead of "Jewish" or "Israeli" says a lot about his viewpoints...

 

[dilloduck]

No, but the fact that Wade uses "Zionist" instead of "Jewish" or "Israeli" says a lot about his viewpoints...

Maybe he IS referring to zionists-----you weren't tempted to say he was anti-semitic were you?

 

[Zhukov]

No, the Arabs were there from the same point in history as the Jews.

I didn't think when Abraham split from the rest of the semites he was in present-day Israel, but I could be wrong. I thought he was more around present-day Jordan or Iraq. At any rate, as the story goes, the only people who were there when the jews got to the 'holy land' after their enslavement were the cannanites whom the jews exterminated. As far as I know there is no book, or any other record, as old as the bible which claims that land for the palestinians. Now, if the Philistines come back they get to claim 'first', but they'll still have to kill the jews if they want the land back.

Exactly, but the USA's post-WWII policy specifically opposes such invasions for the purpose of aquiring land. Only in the case of Israel have we not held to this principal.

There was no invasion. There was a mass migration followed by mass eviction with UN approval (which at the time was a much different institution than it is today).

Additionally, the creation of a jewish state was part in parcel with the formation of the UN and the rest of the post-WWII plan.

In the end, I think the whole "God gave us this land" argument is pure crap. And I think you agree with this don't you Zhukov?

Well, it certainly wouldn't sway me if that's what you mean. But is anyone here making that argument?

 

[wade]

Well, you tell me. Have you not derided for Bush going to war against Saddam because the UN didn't sanction it? But yet you also cry about Israel, even though it was sanctioned by the UN. So which is it - is a UN resolution satisfactory for an action to take place? If so, quit whining about Israel's existence. If not, quit whining about Bush going to war against Saddam without UN approval.

Actually no. I've never been a big supporter of the UN, look at my positions on it in previous posts.

My problem is that we really don't have much meaningful support at all. The USA has 140,000 troops in Iraq. Britain (UK) has 9000. No other nation has more than 3000 (Italy), and the total of these other nations combine amounts to about 11,000. Not only that, but most of these other nations troops perform very limited duties, and are not really fighting. Monitarily the situation is even more lop sided.

If we were going to do this w/o UN support, we should have lined up better support from our "Allies". So far, only Great Britain (UK) has really stepped up - sort of. The UK has about 60 million people, a bit over 1/5th our population, so if they were "doing their part" we'd expect them to have about 35,000 troops in Iraq. We'd expect Austrailia to have more troops there than the Brits do now. Each of our "Allies" is sending the fewest number of troops they can and many of them are demanding only the least dangerous types of duties. And we are footing the bill.

As I've said before, as now structured the UN is a useless body. As long as the "big 5" have veto power, its functionality is limited at best to humanitarian aid except in rare instances where all of the "big 5" can agree - and that's not likely.

And in 1948 the UN was nothing more than a rubber stamp for US policy.

Wade.

 

[drac]

.....And in 1948 the UN was nothing more than a rubber stamp for US policy.

Nop, disagree here. The result of WW2 was a birth of 2 superpower and 2 camps divided by ideology. Both powers had a veto power in UN, so UN policies we not US policies at that time.

 

[wade]

Nop, disagree here. The result of WW2 was a birth of 2 superpower and 2 camps divided by ideology. Both powers had a veto power in UN, so UN policies we not US policies at that time.

Umm... If this is true how do you explain the UN's part in the Korean War? Clearly the USSR was opposed to the UN intervention in Korea, but its veto power (which it did excercise) was meaningless in the UN of that time.

Wade.

 

[Zhukov]

The Soviet Union was protesting the UN (because of China) at the time and abstained from voting.

 

[drac]

The Soviet Union was protesting the UN (because of China) at the time and abstained from voting.

Thank you, saved me some search on this one,
those chinese did not want to play "little brother" part if i remember correctly

 

[Zhukov]

The UN was recognizing the nationalist government-in-exile, not the Communists.

The Soviets were protesting in response.

For some reason, and something I would like to one day exhaustively investigate, Stalin gave the green light to Kim but didn't bother to drop his petty U.N. protest to veto the U.N. resolution to use force against North Korea. Serious blunder.

 

[wade]

Opps I just read your earlier posts and realized my post (deleted) was in error. You are right the Soviets were protesting and did not veto the Korean war declaration.

But seriously, do you think that would have stopped the USA or the other Western Allies?

Wade.

 

[Zhukov]

Opps I just read your earlier posts and realized my post (deleted) was in error. You are right the Soviets were protesting and did not veto the Korean war declaration.

But seriously, do you think that would have stopped the USA or the other Western Allies?

Wade.

I think it would have, at the least, delayed us long enough so as to made retaking the peninsula much more difficult. It's hard to say what the U.S. would have done in the face of a Soviet veto back then. It was a different world, the U.N. was new, and it would have hardly served the purpose of gaining international respect for that body if less than ten years after it's creation we were already ignoring it.

 

[waltky]

No-fly zone needed over Aleppo...

Hospital Workers Rush to Evacuate Infants in Aleppo Bombing
Nov 18, 2016 | Doctors and nurses at a pediatric hospital in Aleppo scrambled to evacuate babies to safety after the facility was bombed.

Doctors and nurses at a pediatric hospital in eastern Aleppo scrambled Friday to evacuate babies in incubators to safety from underground shelters after the facility in the besieged Syrian city was bombed for the second time this week. Medics and aid workers also reported a suspected attack involving toxic gas in a district on the western edge of the rebel-held area. At least 12 people, including children, were treated for breathing difficulties, said Adham Sahloul of the Syrian American Medical Society, which supports health facilities in Aleppo.

Claims of toxic gas attacks are common in Syria, and reports by international inspectors have held the government responsible for using chemicals in attacks on civilians, which Damascus denies. Airstrikes also hit a village in rural areas Aleppo province, killing seven members of a family, including four children, opposition activists said. Friday was the fourth day of renewed assaults by Syrian warplanes on eastern Aleppo districts, a rebel-held enclave of 275,000 people. The onslaught began Tuesday, when Syria's ally Russia announced its own offensive on the northern rebel-controlled Idlib province and Homs province in central Syria. Since then, more than 100 people have been killed across northern Syria.

Smoke rising and fires burning after airstrikes hit the Al-Shaar neighborhood of Aleppo, Syria​

Friday's airstrikes in Aleppo hit a complex of four hospitals that had been attacked two days earlier. The latest strikes forced the pediatric hospital and a neighboring facility to stop operating. "Now it is being bombed. ... I am sorry. ... I have to go to transfer the children," the head of the pediatric hospital wrote in a text message to The Associated Press. The doctor identified himself only by his first name of Hatem because he fears for reprisals against his family.

The incubators already had been moved underground for safety, but with bombs falling all around the facility, hospital workers had to rush them to a safer place despite the danger. Hatem rushed 14 babies in incubators to another facility a 10-minute drive away while airstrikes continued, he said in a later message. "As we drove out with the ambulance, warplanes were firing and artillery were shelling," he wrote. "But thank God we were not hurt." Some of the survivors of the suspected gas attack were taken to the children's hospital.

MORE

 

[waltky]

Russians and Syrian army destroy hospitals in Aleppo...

Eastern Aleppo hospitals unusable: officials
Mon, Nov 21, 2016 - All hospitals in Syria’s besieged rebel-held eastern city of Aleppo are out of service after days of heavy airstrikes, the provincial health directorate and the WHO said, although the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said some were still functioning.

US National Security Adviser Susan Rice said the US condemned “in the strongest terms” the latest airstrikes against hospitals and urged Russia, an ally of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, to take steps to halt the violence. Intense airstrikes have battered the eastern part of the city since Tuesday last week, when the Syrian army and its allies resumed operations after a pause lasting weeks. They launched ground attacks against insurgent positions on Friday. The observatory said 48 people, including at least five children, had been killed in eastern Aleppo on Saturday by dozens of airstrikes and barrel bombs and dozens of artillery rounds. That brings the number of people killed by the increased bombardment of Aleppo and the surrounding countryside over the past five days to about 180, including 97 in the city’s besieged eastern sector, the observatory added.

Warplanes, artillery and helicopters continued bombarding eastern Aleppo on Saturday, hitting many of its densely populated residential districts, the observatory said. There were intense clashes in the Bustan al-Basha district, it added. “This destruction of infrastructure essential to life leaves the besieged, resolute people, including all children and elderly men and women, without any health facilities offering life-saving treatment ... leaving them to die,” Aleppo’s health directorate said in a statement sent to reporters late on Friday by an opposition official.

A damaged Civil Defence ambulance is pictured on Saturday in a rebel-held area of Aleppo, Syria.​

Elizabeth Hoff, who is the WHO representative in Syria, on Saturday said that a UN-led group of aid agencies based over the border in Turkey “confirmed today that all hospitals in eastern Aleppo are out of service.” The observatory said some hospitals were still operating in besieged parts of Aleppo, but said many residents were frightened to use them because of the heavy shelling. Medical sources, residents and rebels in eastern Aleppo say hospitals have been damaged by airstrikes and helicopter barrel bombs in recent days, including direct hits on the buildings. “The United States again joins our partners ... in demanding the immediate cessation of these bombardments and calling on Russia to immediately de-escalate violence and facilitate humanitarian aid and access for the Syrian people,” Rice said in a statement.

However, with the US awaiting the inauguration in late January of US president-elect Donald Trump, who has been critical of Washington’s Syria policy without laying out detailed plans himself, diplomatic efforts appear stalled. UN and Arab League Envoy to Syria Staffan De Mistura was yesterday expected to meet Syrian Minister of Foreign Affairs and Expatriates Walid al-Muallem in Damascus after recent talks in Turkey and Iran, another diplomat said. “He will push on Aleppo, perhaps on a ceasefire, but on the political file there won’t be anything until [UN secretary-general-designate Antonio] Guterres is in office,” the diplomat said.

Eastern Aleppo hospitals unusable: officials - Taipei Times

See also:

Eight children killed in rocket launch at school in Aleppo
Nov. 20, 2016 -- At least eight children died by rebel rocket fire that hit a school in government-held west Aleppo, Syrian state media said Sunday.

In all, 10 people were killed and 59 wounded in the attack on the Furqan neighborhood. A medical source told the Syrian Arab News Agency that eight students between 7 and 12 years old were killed, another 27 students injured and a female teacher had a leg amputated. Also, Al Jazeera reported a family of six in eastern Aleppo was killed. Two medics said the al-Baytounji family -- four children and a married couple -- died from the barrel bomb laced with chlorine gas in the Sakhour district at about midnight. Damascus has denied use of the gas, which is forbidden by the international Chemical Weapons Convention.

SANA also said shells were fired on the Faculty of Law and the neighborhoods of al-Sabil, al-Mogambo, al-Furqan and al-Midan, killing two persons and injuring 32 others in west Aleppo. The opposition now holds the eastern part of the city. Syria's military and Russia's air force had stopped bombarding eastern Aleppo, except for the front-lines, for three weeks, but recommenced strikes Tuesday. Aleppo Gov. Hussein Diab inspected al-Furqan School for basic education and urged for it to be repaired immediately. He also visited those injured in the attacks at the University Hospital, stressing the necessity of providing medical services.

About 240 people have been killed in east Aleppo and the rebel-held countryside to the west of the city since Tuesday, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said. On Sunday, the United Nations' Syria envoy, Staffan de Mistura, warned time was "running out" for eastern Aleppo. He arrived in Damascus for talks. Foreign Minister Walid al-Moalem said de Mistura suggested an autonomous administration in eastern Aleppo, but Damascus completely rejected the idea. An elected city council oversees services there. Moalem said the civilians of eastern Aleppo were held hostage in this controlled distribution of food.

Eight children killed in rocket launch at school in Aleppo