these are our allies??

[Spoonman]

Criminals aren't humane so I really have no problem not dealing humanely with them. Yes it requires a change in mindset but this is what we are up against. The criminals mindset is already changed and we are not changing them back. I've heard this analogy used and I love it. There are bullies out there and they are ready to kick sand in your face. You have two options, fight back or take it. And that is the way of the world.

Violent criminals aren't humane, but our prisons are full of non-violent criminals, primarily due to drug issues. I don't have a problem with legalization if those who use have to accept personal responsibility for the results of said use. Iow, I don't favor putting them on disability and the taxpayer footing the bill for their rehab. If someone wants to kill themselves with drugs, let them. I have no need to save people from themselves.

Another thing we really need to keep in mind, as we become more diverse, we have a society that is more used to these types of punishments. Or world is changing and becoming more like theirs. We do not have an adequate deterent system to the criminal element that is from outside the US.

Most of our criminal element is a result of our own social policies and creation of the welfare state.

You basically just read my mind. That is where I am at with drugs too. You want to do yourself in that's not my problem. I smoke a fair amount of the weed. But I don't drive high, i don't work high, I don't steal to pay for it. And it doesn't make me a non productive person. It relaxes me, frees my mind and refreshes me. It's not a gateway to hard drugs. It's my evening cocktail so to speak. If it was detrimental to my life, I'd give it up. I grow my own becasue I don't want it laced with God knows what and I refuse to support murdering drug lords. In a pinch I'll buy or borrow from some other growers I know.

Your point on our criminal element, spot on.

 

[Samson]

You basically just read my mind. That is where I am at with drugs too. You want to do yourself in that's not my problem. I smoke a fair amount of the weed. But I don't drive high, i don't work high, I don't steal to pay for it. And it doesn't make me a non productive person. It relaxes me, frees my mind and refreshes me. It's not a gateway to hard drugs. It's my evening cocktail so to speak. If it was detrimental to my life, I'd give it up. I grow my own becasue I don't want it laced with God knows what and I refuse to support murdering drug lords. In a pinch I'll buy or borrow from some other growers I know.

Your point on our criminal element, spot on.

The Surgeon General reports Smoking is Hazardous to your Health.

 

[lizzie]

The Surgeon General reports Smoking is Hazardous to your Health.

I haven't known many pot-heads who smoke a couple of packs a day of joints.

 

[eagleseven]

The Surgeon General reports Smoking is Hazardous to your Health.

I haven't known many pot-heads who smoke a couple of packs a day of joints.

That's only because it's so expensive, and smoking isn't conductive to making lots of money.

 

[lizzie]

The Surgeon General reports Smoking is Hazardous to your Health.

I haven't known many pot-heads who smoke a couple of packs a day of joints.

That's only because it's so expensive, and smoking isn't conductive to making lots of money.

I have no idea what the cost of pot is these days, but the price of cigarettes has gone up so much that it may be comparable.

 

[Samson]

The Surgeon General reports Smoking is Hazardous to your Health.

I haven't known many pot-heads who smoke a couple of packs a day of joints.

You know pot-heads that use filters?

 

[Conspiracist]

Muslims want to do this to each other...let them. It's their country. Their religion. Their laws. Who gives a toss if they want to live and die in the dark ages.

Problem is, not all of them do. Remember the massive riots in Tehran?

There was a time in Arabia when women could safely walk around unburka'd...back before the Saudi Monarchy (pre-1931).

But it's not our business. I understand the desire to get involved but we should practice a live and let live policy in our foreign affairs.

 

[uscitizen]

Muslims want to do this to each other...let them. It's their country. Their religion. Their laws. Who gives a toss if they want to live and die in the dark ages.

Problem is, not all of them do. Remember the massive riots in Tehran?

There was a time in Arabia when women could safely walk around unburka'd...back before the Saudi Monarchy (pre-1931).

But it's not our business

True no mre than what we do inside our country is any other countries business.

 

[rdean]

theocracy -
the belief in government by divine guidance
A government ruled by or subject to religious authority

Does the following (from the Iraqi Constitution) fit that description?

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.


Republicans did this and now they want to govern again. What will they do this time? I don't want to find out.

If you're afraid of Republicans trying to replicate this, you're barking up the wrong tree. As for Iraqis, it's their constitution to write as they please. In the Muslim world (in general) religion is much more significant in the lives of the general population than we see here. They are already divided enough by tribalism, and their religion is part of the glue that holds them together as a culture. Is it a culture that I would want to be a part of? No. But it's theirs to live as they see fit. When they are ready for a more "western" style of governance, they will have it.

Why now? Why, all of a sudden, it's "their" country? Why wasn't it "their" country BEFORE we invaded and leveled "their" country?

 

[rdean]

Let's go for an eye for an eye. Why not? Why shouldn't the punishment fit the crime. It might be a deterent. I think it would.

In some cases though would the eye for an eye be equitable. A man rapes a women and gets her pregnant. Or gives her an infectious disease. What do you do? Rape him? How do you deal with the pregnancy of disease? You can't impact him that way. Let's say someone kills your three children, but he has none? What do you do then? Or is murder just repaid with death regardless.

The punishment should fit the crime but there is a lot to consider.

True, but it's difficult to have an "eye for an eye" system unless we're living in the wild west. I have no problem with the death penalty IF guilt can be determined with no doubt whatsoever. When you get into crimes such as rape, there's really no option for "an eye for an eye" justice. Then we have the reality we are living in where many of our prisoners are in prison for drug possession, which can't really be remedied with that type of justice either. What about theives? Cut off their hands? This is what you might see in an eye for an eye society, but is not considered humane in the western world. We pretty much have to live within our own ideas on what is fit punishment for crime, and it's often too lenient imo, but I don't want to live in a society like the one that the thread is based on either.

Criminals aren't humane so I really have no problem not dealing humanely with them. Yes it requires a change in mindset but this is what we are up against. The criminals mindset is already changed and we are not changing them back. I've heard this analogy used and I love it. There are bullies out there and they are ready to kick sand in your face. You have two options, fight back or take it. And that is the way of the world. We are not going to be able to force out nice guy ideals on every one. So we either muscle up and push back when pushed or roll over and take it.

I pointed out there are numerous circumstanses where there really isn't a practical eye for eye solution. We'd have to work those out. As far as drugs. I'd legalize them. You want to do drugs, your call. I smoke pot. I even grow a lot of my own. But, and this is a key but. I would make laws for driving under the influence as strict as alcohol. Being legal does not prevent your company from firing your ass if you show up to work high. Same laws apply as alcohol. And, another big one, drug testing mandatory for entitlement checks. Test positive, no check for you.

Another thing we really need to keep in mind, as we become more diverse, we have a society that is more used to these types of punishments. Or world is changing and becoming more like theirs. We do not have an adequate deterent system to the criminal element that is from outside the US.

CRIMINALS aren't "humane"? Not just "criminals".

"If you feed the poor, they'll breed" (referring to poor children and school lunches).

"Let them sober up and go get a job" (referring to the unemployed).

Belly achers, bums, hobos, It's NOT my job as Senator to help people get jobs. (more unemployed)

Gays want "special rights" (referring to hospital visits of "partners")

What do the people who make these statements have in common?

 

[Samson]

CRIMINALS aren't "humane"? Not just "criminals".

"If you feed the poor, they'll breed" (referring to poor children and school lunches).

"Let them sober up and go get a job" (referring to the unemployed).

Belly achers, bums, hobos, It's NOT my job as Senator to help people get jobs. (more unemployed)

Gays want "special rights" (referring to hospital visits of "partners")

What do the people who make these statements have in common?

They're all your male relatives.

 

[eagleseven]

Why now? Why, all of a sudden, it's "their" country? Why wasn't it "their" country BEFORE we invaded and leveled "their" country?

Why do you pretend that people have any rights under a dictatorship?

It was "his" country BEFORE the invasion.

 

[eagleseven]

True no mre than what we do inside our country is any other countries business.

If you haven't noticed, what we do inside our country is everyone's business...

...particularly when our financial sector causes a global recession.

 

[007]

But turning Iraq into an Islamic Theocracy will make us "safe". This is how he Republicans think. It's the same logic that rich people and corporations will "take care of us".

I've always wondered...does the DNC pay you per post, or a monthly sum for keeping a presence here?

No, I just get so sick of the right wing lies that I just feel it's important for people to read the truth once in a while.

Well that's all fine and dandy. Problem is though, we sure the hell aren't going to get the "TRUTH" from you. You're a hyper partisan, biased, liberal hack.

 

[Samson]

theocracy -
the belief in government by divine guidance
A government ruled by or subject to religious authority

Does the following (from the Iraqi Constitution) fit that description?

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.


Republicans did this and now they want to govern again. What will they do this time? I don't want to find out.

If you're afraid of Republicans trying to replicate this, you're barking up the wrong tree. As for Iraqis, it's their constitution to write as they please. In the Muslim world (in general) religion is much more significant in the lives of the general population than we see here. They are already divided enough by tribalism, and their religion is part of the glue that holds them together as a culture. Is it a culture that I would want to be a part of? No. But it's theirs to live as they see fit. When they are ready for a more "western" style of governance, they will have it.

Why now? Why, all of a sudden, it's "their" country? Why wasn't it "their" country BEFORE we invaded and leveled "their" country?

Who said it wasn't their country before the USA invaded it?

What does it matter?

 

[Samson]

Why now? Why, all of a sudden, it's "their" country? Why wasn't it "their" country BEFORE we invaded and leveled "their" country?

Why do you pretend that people have any rights under a dictatorship?

It was "his" country BEFORE the invasion.

So?

I couldn't give a shit, nor would any other American.

Iraq invaded Kuwait, we gave the Iraqi government a chance to get their shit together, and they didn't, so we took it out. End of Story...except.....

Our fucking pointy headed bureaucrats thought it would be nice to democratize Iraq, which MIGHT take almost a goddamn decade MINIMUM.

 

[eagleseven]

So?

I couldn't give a shit, nor would any other American.

Anyone who argues that Iraq was better off under Saddam needs their head examined.

Iraq invaded Kuwait, we gave the Iraqi government a chance to get their shit together, and they didn't, so we took it out. End of Story...except.....

Our fucking pointy headed bureaucrats thought it would be nice to democratize Iraq, which MIGHT take almost a goddamn decade MINIMUM.

At this point, I'd settle for a pro-US dictatorship in Iraq, unfortunately.

 

[lizzie]

Our fucking pointy headed bureaucrats thought it would be nice to democratize Iraq, which MIGHT take almost a goddamn decade MINIMUM.

My guess is that it may take closer to a millenium than a decade.

 

[Samson]

So?

I couldn't give a shit, nor would any other American.

Anyone who argues that Iraq was better off under Saddam needs their head examined.

Iraq invaded Kuwait, we gave the Iraqi government a chance to get their shit together, and they didn't, so we took it out. End of Story...except.....

Our fucking pointy headed bureaucrats thought it would be nice to democratize Iraq, which MIGHT take almost a goddamn decade MINIMUM.

At this point, I'd settle for a pro-US dictatorship in Iraq, unfortunately.

While it is certainly true that Iraq is better off without Saddam, I couldn't give a flip if he was still governing that miserable corner of the earth, nor would anyone else if he'd not invaded Kuwait, or developed SCUDS, or gassed Kurds and Iranians.

We should have settled for a pro US dictatorship back in 2003. Now, after investing 7 years in the stupidity of democratization, its political suicide to do anything else....OVERTLY. Frankly, I think the Obama Administration will withdraw all US troops, and the last of them will be helicoptered off the top of the US Embassy just as hostiles are climbing over the walls.

 

[lizzie]

We should have settled for a pro US dictatorship back in 2003. Now, after investing 7 years in the stupidity of democratization, its political suicide to do anything else....OVERTLY. Frankly, I think the Obama Administration will withdraw all US troops, and the last of them will be helicoptered off the top of the US Embassy just as hostiles are climbing over the walls.

Yeah, I'm thinking of starting a lottery to place bets on how long (after withdrawal) it will be before civil war breaks out.