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It's not that difficult dude....trust me all it would have taken is a pressurized chase pipe
In the peak points...not hard to install or to operate. My guess is they couldn't work out the aesthetics....it would be ugly looking.
Jo
And if the system went off by accident it could destroy certain things of value in the place.
Running a 1 foot diameter pressurized pipe in a structure that was built before even the concept of such items was created is challenging.
Where to mount it, how to mount it, can the existing stone handle the loads, the vibrational actions, etc.
Has there even been a study on how centuries old stone walls would handle the impact of water hammer on a filled vertically run force main?
FYI, I have a masters in Chemical Engineering, and have 20 years experience in design, operations and construction of wastewater treatment plants (which includes fire safety systems) so I am talking from some experience here.
Sure...accidental activation is always a risk.
So is no prevention at all.
As for structural considerations I totally agree that an internal infrastructure separate from the antique structure is the correct choice. ... Still under a million bucks for peak coverages. I do this all the time...lol.
I'm betting it would be very unpleasant to look at.
Jo
You really think $1 million dollar system would have prevented this?
What type of systems do you install "all the time"?
Well to be fair my experience with it is
Strictly industrial and I don't have to worry much about combustibles or even aesthetics. A million is an arbitrary figure based on past experience costing out the materials and labor for hot spots under 200 feet high...including the multistage pressure pumping and the basic electronic controls such as location panels for the networks of
Smoke and heat sensors...all wifi now btw.
I don't know what heights are involved with the cathedral spire...but if somebody over there didn't see this coming they were just stupid.
I'm not saying it's a snap...especially in an antique structure...I am saying that NOTHING...is inexcusable.
Jo
You can't extrapolate a small system in a modern building to what would be required for something like a cathedral.
The closest you can approximate with would be the suppression systems for high rises, or things like professional sports stadiums, and for those systems you are talking 10's of millions of dollars as a floor, not a ceiling.
Just designing such a system would cost millions of dollars, and given the roof configuration, it's even possible you couldn't fit enough heads, or the pipes for the heads into the ceiling structure without modifying it in a major way.
Over 800 years old, actually.The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did
I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old
Again, no real idea. I was just curious about it after watching some of the video.I have no idea on the manual ladders, but the ladder trucks have 100 feet on average of height but quite a bit more horizontal reach. The ladders have to be 125' or more to reach 100' in height since they aren't straight up and down.10 floors (100 feet) is average.
I googled it the day of the fire.
I believe those are ladder trucks you are talking about.
The issue with the cathedral is it is difficult to get right alongside the structure, and thus you lose height for every foot you are away from the structure base.
I was talking about manual ladders that could have been placed closer to the structure.
Either way modern equipment wasn't designed for things like flying buttresses getting in the way.
I would be curious if the French had equipment that large, and more importantly, the large equipment in that area. Most of their bigger buildings are outside the historic area, and it would make sense to stage that equipment closer to the large building clusters.
I do know that our local department has one custom truck that reaches 126' or about 13 stories.
I live in NYC so he FDNY has plenty of large equipment.
However for most fires in high structures the ladders are only part of the solution. Most times you stage inside the building as well. It's what led to the casualties on 9/11, as they simply didn't have the time to figure out the structural stability of the buildings and still try to fight the fire and evacuate people from the towers.
As an Engineer, I understand the need for time when trying to figure out exactly what happened, but I understand people's need to figure things out RIGHT NOW.
I was 11 when the Challenger exploded, but i had to wait until my 20's after Engineering School to truly understand the Rogers report.
And if the system went off by accident it could destroy certain things of value in the place.
Running a 1 foot diameter pressurized pipe in a structure that was built before even the concept of such items was created is challenging.
Where to mount it, how to mount it, can the existing stone handle the loads, the vibrational actions, etc.
Has there even been a study on how centuries old stone walls would handle the impact of water hammer on a filled vertically run force main?
FYI, I have a masters in Chemical Engineering, and have 20 years experience in design, operations and construction of wastewater treatment plants (which includes fire safety systems) so I am talking from some experience here.
Sure...accidental activation is always a risk.
So is no prevention at all.
As for structural considerations I totally agree that an internal infrastructure separate from the antique structure is the correct choice. ... Still under a million bucks for peak coverages. I do this all the time...lol.
I'm betting it would be very unpleasant to look at.
Jo
You really think $1 million dollar system would have prevented this?
What type of systems do you install "all the time"?
Well to be fair my experience with it is
Strictly industrial and I don't have to worry much about combustibles or even aesthetics. A million is an arbitrary figure based on past experience costing out the materials and labor for hot spots under 200 feet high...including the multistage pressure pumping and the basic electronic controls such as location panels for the networks of
Smoke and heat sensors...all wifi now btw.
I don't know what heights are involved with the cathedral spire...but if somebody over there didn't see this coming they were just stupid.
I'm not saying it's a snap...especially in an antique structure...I am saying that NOTHING...is inexcusable.
Jo
You can't extrapolate a small system in a modern building to what would be required for something like a cathedral.
The closest you can approximate with would be the suppression systems for high rises, or things like professional sports stadiums, and for those systems you are talking 10's of millions of dollars as a floor, not a ceiling.
Just designing such a system would cost millions of dollars, and given the roof configuration, it's even possible you couldn't fit enough heads, or the pipes for the heads into the ceiling structure without modifying it in a major way.
Well if it was looked at I am quite sure that
Modification, especially of a historic structure was probably a non starter.
I don't know why planning would be that expensive. Most of the needed physics is already available in drop in package systems. Making it look nice.. well that could possibly be very expensive.
Jo
Again, no real idea. I was just curious about it after watching some of the video.I have no idea on the manual ladders, but the ladder trucks have 100 feet on average of height but quite a bit more horizontal reach. The ladders have to be 125' or more to reach 100' in height since they aren't straight up and down.I believe those are ladder trucks you are talking about.
The issue with the cathedral is it is difficult to get right alongside the structure, and thus you lose height for every foot you are away from the structure base.
I was talking about manual ladders that could have been placed closer to the structure.
Either way modern equipment wasn't designed for things like flying buttresses getting in the way.
I would be curious if the French had equipment that large, and more importantly, the large equipment in that area. Most of their bigger buildings are outside the historic area, and it would make sense to stage that equipment closer to the large building clusters.
I do know that our local department has one custom truck that reaches 126' or about 13 stories.
I live in NYC so he FDNY has plenty of large equipment.
However for most fires in high structures the ladders are only part of the solution. Most times you stage inside the building as well. It's what led to the casualties on 9/11, as they simply didn't have the time to figure out the structural stability of the buildings and still try to fight the fire and evacuate people from the towers.
As an Engineer, I understand the need for time when trying to figure out exactly what happened, but I understand people's need to figure things out RIGHT NOW.
I was 11 when the Challenger exploded, but i had to wait until my 20's after Engineering School to truly understand the Rogers report.
As an Engineer, I understand the need for time when trying to figure out exactly what happened, but I understand people's need to figure things out RIGHT NOW.
Yesterday would have been better in this case.
They goofed....plain and simple. Whether this was arson or not.
Jo
Again, no real idea. I was just curious about it after watching some of the video.I have no idea on the manual ladders, but the ladder trucks have 100 feet on average of height but quite a bit more horizontal reach. The ladders have to be 125' or more to reach 100' in height since they aren't straight up and down.
I would be curious if the French had equipment that large, and more importantly, the large equipment in that area. Most of their bigger buildings are outside the historic area, and it would make sense to stage that equipment closer to the large building clusters.
I do know that our local department has one custom truck that reaches 126' or about 13 stories.
I live in NYC so he FDNY has plenty of large equipment.
However for most fires in high structures the ladders are only part of the solution. Most times you stage inside the building as well. It's what led to the casualties on 9/11, as they simply didn't have the time to figure out the structural stability of the buildings and still try to fight the fire and evacuate people from the towers.
As an Engineer, I understand the need for time when trying to figure out exactly what happened, but I understand people's need to figure things out RIGHT NOW.
I was 11 when the Challenger exploded, but i had to wait until my 20's after Engineering School to truly understand the Rogers report.
As an Engineer, I understand the need for time when trying to figure out exactly what happened, but I understand people's need to figure things out RIGHT NOW.
Yesterday would have been better in this case.
They goofed....plain and simple. Whether this was arson or not.
Jo
We can't say who goofed or if anyone goofed yet.
Water weighs eight pounds per gallon. Drop it from a couple hundred feet and you have a virtual sledge hammer hitting the structureThe right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.
A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.
Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?
I'm just sayin....
JO
Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did
I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old
Actually when i first saw videos of the fire, I knew the trucks and pumps they had would have a bitch of a time reaching the roof structures.
I actually though of the type of planes we use to fight forest fires, C-130's, but the momentum of that much water could be a structural issue.
Helicopters can't carry enough water per load, and if you tried to add too many to the area, the risk of them crashing into the structure while trying to fight the fire would be an issue.
Say it again!Our President
Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.
A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.
Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?
I'm just sayin....
JO
Water weighs eight pounds per gallon. Drop it from a couple hundred feet and you have a virtual sledge hammer hitting the structureThe right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.
A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.
Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?
I'm just sayin....
JO
Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did
I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old
Actually when i first saw videos of the fire, I knew the trucks and pumps they had would have a bitch of a time reaching the roof structures.
I actually though of the type of planes we use to fight forest fires, C-130's, but the momentum of that much water could be a structural issue.
Helicopters can't carry enough water per load, and if you tried to add too many to the area, the risk of them crashing into the structure while trying to fight the fire would be an issue.
Is there any kind of fire retardant that could be put on the surviving timbers to make it harder for them to catch fire? Something clear, obviously, if they are exposed.
Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.
A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.
Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?
I'm just sayin....
JO
A workman's magnifying glass? WTF are you talking about? You really were stretching for that one!
Do you have any idea what a sprinkler system would do to the architecture and appeal of the original structure?
Now, since they have to rebuild it, a sprinkler system would be much easier to install and less noticeable.
My understanding is that they are planning on some materiels changes and treatments to help with that. Hopefully a suppression system is in the planes as well.The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.
A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.
Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?
I'm just sayin....
JO
Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did
I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old
Actually I was listening to a program this morning and was shocked to discover that they had nothing. Now that just pisses me off.
Jo
Again, the problem is getting a functional system into a structure like that. It's easy to slap in a couple of panels and run some small pipe into the building to give the impression of a fire suppression system, but all that does is give a false sense of security.
Installing a viable system for a building of that size and configuration would require massive amounts of water to be thrown about in patterns never considered in modern building construction. Modern structures don't have roof configurations that allowed the blaze to happen, nor are made of centuries old wood that is basically kindling in waiting.
Telling the truth always upset you filth.The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.
A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.
Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?
I'm just sayin....
JO
Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did
I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old
Is there any kind of fire retardant that could be put on the surviving timbers to make it harder for them to catch fire? Something clear, obviously, if they are exposed.
Most of those materials are either bulky and obvious, or not exactly harmless and designed to be contained behind a layer of something when applied to the item being protected.
Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.
A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.
Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?
I'm just sayin....
JO
Water weighs eight pounds per gallon. Drop it from a couple hundred feet and you have a virtual sledge hammer hitting the structureThe right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.
A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.
Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?
I'm just sayin....
JO
Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did
I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old
Actually when i first saw videos of the fire, I knew the trucks and pumps they had would have a bitch of a time reaching the roof structures.
I actually though of the type of planes we use to fight forest fires, C-130's, but the momentum of that much water could be a structural issue.
Helicopters can't carry enough water per load, and if you tried to add too many to the area, the risk of them crashing into the structure while trying to fight the fire would be an issue.
That assumes the water stays as gallon cubes throughout the arc of flight to the structure.
If you watch planes drop water the spread it out, which aerates it, reducing the impact, and increasing the surface are of the water, which increases it's heat absorbing ability.
Even helicopters drop water "on the fly" for the same effect.
Is there any kind of fire retardant that could be put on the surviving timbers to make it harder for them to catch fire? Something clear, obviously, if they are exposed.
Most of those materials are either bulky and obvious, or not exactly harmless and designed to be contained behind a layer of something when applied to the item being protected.
Yes we'll I'd rather ring out an antique tapestry than try to reconstruct it from ashes. It occurs to me that Halon might have been an easier install than an H2O
System. Anything at all would have been better...even a locator panel.
Jo
