There's this thing Called Sprinkler systems...

[martybegan]

Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.

A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.

Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?

I'm just sayin....

JO

Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

Actually I was listening to a program this morning and was shocked to discover that they had nothing. Now that just pisses me off.

Jo

Again, the problem is getting a functional system into a structure like that. It's easy to slap in a couple of panels and run some small pipe into the building to give the impression of a fire suppression system, but all that does is give a false sense of security.

Installing a viable system for a building of that size and configuration would require massive amounts of water to be thrown about in patterns never considered in modern building construction. Modern structures don't have roof configurations that allowed the blaze to happen, nor are made of centuries old wood that is basically kindling in waiting.

It's not that difficult dude....trust me all it would have taken is a pressurized chase pipe
In the peak points...not hard to install or to operate. My guess is they couldn't work out the aesthetics....it would be ugly looking.

Jo

And if the system went off by accident it could destroy certain things of value in the place.

Running a 1 foot diameter pressurized pipe in a structure that was built before even the concept of such items was created is challenging.

Where to mount it, how to mount it, can the existing stone handle the loads, the vibrational actions, etc.

Has there even been a study on how centuries old stone walls would handle the impact of water hammer on a filled vertically run force main?

FYI, I have a masters in Chemical Engineering, and have 20 years experience in design, operations and construction of wastewater treatment plants (which includes fire safety systems) so I am talking from some experience here.

 

[justoffal]

They'll be lucky if they can recreate the structure. The skills used back then are not readily available in modern times.

There will be wood-bending and carving and stained-glass making.

Some of those arts are lost forever.

Jo

 

[martybegan]

Actually I was listening to a program this morning and was shocked to discover that they had nothing. Now that just pisses me off.

Jo

Again, the problem is getting a functional system into a structure like that. It's easy to slap in a couple of panels and run some small pipe into the building to give the impression of a fire suppression system, but all that does is give a false sense of security.

Installing a viable system for a building of that size and configuration would require massive amounts of water to be thrown about in patterns never considered in modern building construction. Modern structures don't have roof configurations that allowed the blaze to happen, nor are made of centuries old wood that is basically kindling in waiting.

My understanding is that they are planning on some materiels changes and treatments to help with that. Hopefully a suppression system is in the planes as well.

Even when re-constructing something this old, it is far easier to add the system as part of the design than to try to slap one into an existing and in this case, ancient structure.

I would think they would go with old school materials for the work, but this would now be "fresh" wood, that wouldn't become dried out again for centuries.

Heard people talking about fire retardant treatments for wood and the possibility of some composites on the news today.

But I'm certainly not any sort of expert on this kinda thing, I'm just talking about what I heard.

Yeah I mean shit...you don't have to be an expert....anything at all would have helped
I am in utter disbelief that there was NOTHING. It's just inexcusable!

Jo

Anything at all might not have helped. In fact, an inadequate system is even worse because it gives a false sense of security.

The renovation people know the fire risk, they had to be taking precautions with regards to that. A "show" fire suppression system would have given them false security.

 

[rightwinger]

Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.

A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.

Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?

I'm just sayin....

JO

Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

I heard that it too,k an hour for the FD to get to the fire....

Rush hour traffic made it difficult for ladder trucks to reach the scene
How easy is it to fight a fire a hundred feet up in an ancient wooden attic?

 

[martybegan]

Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.

A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.

Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?

I'm just sayin....

JO

Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

Actually when i first saw videos of the fire, I knew the trucks and pumps they had would have a bitch of a time reaching the roof structures.

I actually though of the type of planes we use to fight forest fires, C-130's, but the momentum of that much water could be a structural issue.

Helicopters can't carry enough water per load, and if you tried to add too many to the area, the risk of them crashing into the structure while trying to fight the fire would be an issue.

 

[justoffal]

Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

Actually I was listening to a program this morning and was shocked to discover that they had nothing. Now that just pisses me off.

Jo

Again, the problem is getting a functional system into a structure like that. It's easy to slap in a couple of panels and run some small pipe into the building to give the impression of a fire suppression system, but all that does is give a false sense of security.

Installing a viable system for a building of that size and configuration would require massive amounts of water to be thrown about in patterns never considered in modern building construction. Modern structures don't have roof configurations that allowed the blaze to happen, nor are made of centuries old wood that is basically kindling in waiting.

It's not that difficult dude....trust me all it would have taken is a pressurized chase pipe
In the peak points...not hard to install or to operate. My guess is they couldn't work out the aesthetics....it would be ugly looking.

Jo

And if the system went off by accident it could destroy certain things of value in the place.

Running a 1 foot diameter pressurized pipe in a structure that was built before even the concept of such items was created is challenging.

Where to mount it, how to mount it, can the existing stone handle the loads, the vibrational actions, etc.

Has there even been a study on how centuries old stone walls would handle the impact of water hammer on a filled vertically run force main?

FYI, I have a masters in Chemical Engineering, and have 20 years experience in design, operations and construction of wastewater treatment plants (which includes fire safety systems) so I am talking from some experience here.

Sure...accidental activation is always a risk.
So is no prevention at all.

As for structural considerations I totally agree that an internal infrastructure separate from the antique structure is the correct choice. ... Still under a million bucks for minimal peak coverages. I do this all the time...lol.

A low volume diffuser in the peak areas even if it was pex would have taken out the up creeping flames.

I'm betting it would be very unpleasant to look at.

Jo

 

[martybegan]

Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.

A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.

Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?

I'm just sayin....

JO

Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

I heard that it too,k an hour for the FD to get to the fire....

Rush hour traffic made it difficult for ladder trucks to reach the scene

Do they even have ladders that big?

any ladder over 50 ft or so is pretty unstable.

 

[martybegan]

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

Actually I was listening to a program this morning and was shocked to discover that they had nothing. Now that just pisses me off.

Jo

Again, the problem is getting a functional system into a structure like that. It's easy to slap in a couple of panels and run some small pipe into the building to give the impression of a fire suppression system, but all that does is give a false sense of security.

Installing a viable system for a building of that size and configuration would require massive amounts of water to be thrown about in patterns never considered in modern building construction. Modern structures don't have roof configurations that allowed the blaze to happen, nor are made of centuries old wood that is basically kindling in waiting.

It's not that difficult dude....trust me all it would have taken is a pressurized chase pipe
In the peak points...not hard to install or to operate. My guess is they couldn't work out the aesthetics....it would be ugly looking.

Jo

And if the system went off by accident it could destroy certain things of value in the place.

Running a 1 foot diameter pressurized pipe in a structure that was built before even the concept of such items was created is challenging.

Where to mount it, how to mount it, can the existing stone handle the loads, the vibrational actions, etc.

Has there even been a study on how centuries old stone walls would handle the impact of water hammer on a filled vertically run force main?

FYI, I have a masters in Chemical Engineering, and have 20 years experience in design, operations and construction of wastewater treatment plants (which includes fire safety systems) so I am talking from some experience here.

Sure...accidental activation is always a risk.
So is no prevention at all.

As for structural considerations I totally agree that an internal infrastructure separate from the antique structure is the correct choice. ... Still under a million bucks for peak coverages. I do this all the time...lol.

I'm betting it would be very unpleasant to look at.

Jo

You really think $1 million dollar system would have prevented this?

What type of systems do you install "all the time"?

 

[OldLady]

Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for at reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.

A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.

Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?

I'm just sayin....

JO

Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

I heard that it too,k an hour for the FD to get to the fire....

They couldn't find it....another thing that a modern panel system fixes.. it tells you where to look! GAWD this stuff pisses me off!!!

They couldn't find the NOTRE DAME CATHEDRAL????? Oh come on, I've heard weak excuses in the past, but that is a doozy.

No, they couldn't find the fire the first time the alarm went off. They looked but did not see anything. Either they looked in the wrong place or it was smoldering out of sight. You would think they could have smelled the smoke, though, that triggered the alarm.

When I was a the community residence, we had an alarm system that would go off if the smoke detectors were triggered, but the alarm panel just said "basement" or "kitchen" or "2nd floor" etc. The basement was big and broken up into three areas, including a laundry that was entered from one end of the house, and an office and a general basement area that held the furnace, hot water heater, etc. which were accessed from the other end of the house. At 2 a.m. when a spider walks into the smoke detector and sets off the alarm which reads "basement" there was a hell of a lot of running around to do.

 

[Crepitus]

Sometimes the government knows what it's talking about. I realize that too many regulations can be stifiling. But folks some of them are there for a reason. Fires have been around for a long time and long before the thought of terrorists using it to make a point whole cities have burned down because no one took the time to put some effort into prevention.

A huge, sprawling structure lke Notre Dame Cathedral is a perfect example. IMO it was arson....but just for a moment let's stop and consider the alternatives... A workman's magnifying glass left out of his tool box in an area where the sun can reach it. For twenty minutes the sun shines through it to the 500 year old, super dried out timber floor, (practically a natural book of matches) underneath it and poof.....you have a blaze. For less than a million bucks a decent system of sprinklers with computer location panels could have easily been installed that would have stopped this thing in it's tracks.

Let's hope they do that on the rebuild eh?

I'm just sayin....

JO

Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

I heard that it too,k an hour for the FD to get to the fire....

Rush hour traffic made it difficult for ladder trucks to reach the scene

Do they even have ladders that big?

any ladder over 50 ft or so is pretty unstable.

10 floors (100 feet) is average.

I googled it the day of the fire.

 

[22lcidw]

Someone said the wood was Oak. Good sized Oak lumber is tough. Oak is tough to burn through quickly and can still be used if it has most of its strength. I have no idea about their fire suppression plans. But with that building's historical significance I would hope they did everything they could have for protection.

 

[martybegan]

Retrofitting modern fire safety equipment into a structure that old and that large is never easy.

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

I heard that it too,k an hour for the FD to get to the fire....

Rush hour traffic made it difficult for ladder trucks to reach the scene

Do they even have ladders that big?

any ladder over 50 ft or so is pretty unstable.

10 floors (100 feet) is average.

I googled it the day of the fire.

I believe those are ladder trucks you are talking about.

The issue with the cathedral is it is difficult to get right alongside the structure, and thus you lose height for every foot you are away from the structure base.

I was talking about manual ladders that could have been placed closer to the structure.

Either way modern equipment wasn't designed for things like flying buttresses getting in the way.

 

[Crepitus]

The right is spinning these stories about how inept French fire fighting is.
Our President has helped spread the rumors with his fire fighting helicopter claims. The French fire fighters were heroic in saving as much as they did

I am sure the French had as much fire suppression systems in the cathedral as they could without impacting the structure. Only so much you can do with rafters over 500 years old

I heard that it too,k an hour for the FD to get to the fire....

Rush hour traffic made it difficult for ladder trucks to reach the scene

Do they even have ladders that big?

any ladder over 50 ft or so is pretty unstable.

10 floors (100 feet) is average.

I googled it the day of the fire.

I believe those are ladder trucks you are talking about.

The issue with the cathedral is it is difficult to get right alongside the structure, and thus you lose height for every foot you are away from the structure base.

I was talking about manual ladders that could have been placed closer to the structure.

Either way modern equipment wasn't designed for things like flying buttresses getting in the way.

I have no idea on the manual ladders, but the ladder trucks have 100 feet on average of height but quite a bit more horizontal reach. The ladders have to be 125' or more to reach 100' in height since they aren't straight up and down.

 

[justoffal]

Actually I was listening to a program this morning and was shocked to discover that they had nothing. Now that just pisses me off.

Jo

Again, the problem is getting a functional system into a structure like that. It's easy to slap in a couple of panels and run some small pipe into the building to give the impression of a fire suppression system, but all that does is give a false sense of security.

Installing a viable system for a building of that size and configuration would require massive amounts of water to be thrown about in patterns never considered in modern building construction. Modern structures don't have roof configurations that allowed the blaze to happen, nor are made of centuries old wood that is basically kindling in waiting.

It's not that difficult dude....trust me all it would have taken is a pressurized chase pipe
In the peak points...not hard to install or to operate. My guess is they couldn't work out the aesthetics....it would be ugly looking.

Jo

And if the system went off by accident it could destroy certain things of value in the place.

Running a 1 foot diameter pressurized pipe in a structure that was built before even the concept of such items was created is challenging.

Where to mount it, how to mount it, can the existing stone handle the loads, the vibrational actions, etc.

Has there even been a study on how centuries old stone walls would handle the impact of water hammer on a filled vertically run force main?

FYI, I have a masters in Chemical Engineering, and have 20 years experience in design, operations and construction of wastewater treatment plants (which includes fire safety systems) so I am talking from some experience here.

Sure...accidental activation is always a risk.
So is no prevention at all.

As for structural considerations I totally agree that an internal infrastructure separate from the antique structure is the correct choice. ... Still under a million bucks for peak coverages. I do this all the time...lol.

I'm betting it would be very unpleasant to look at.

Jo

You really think $1 million dollar system would have prevented this?

What type of systems do you install "all the time"?

Well to be fair my experience with it is
Strictly industrial and I don't have to worry much about combustibles or even aesthetics. A million is an arbitrary figure based on past experience costing out the materials and labor for hot spots under 200 feet high...including the multistage pressure pumping and the basic electronic controls such as location panels for the networks of smoke and heat sensors...all wifi now btw.

I don't know what heights are involved with the cathedral spire...but if somebody over there didn't see this coming they were just stupid.

I'm not saying it's a snap...especially in an antique structure...I am saying that NOTHING...is inexcusable.

Jo

 

[Natural Citizen]

They'll be lucky if they can recreate the structure. The skills used back then are not readily available in modern times.

There will be wood-bending and carving and stained-glass making.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[martybegan]

I heard that it too,k an hour for the FD to get to the fire....

Rush hour traffic made it difficult for ladder trucks to reach the scene

Do they even have ladders that big?

any ladder over 50 ft or so is pretty unstable.

10 floors (100 feet) is average.

I googled it the day of the fire.

I believe those are ladder trucks you are talking about.

The issue with the cathedral is it is difficult to get right alongside the structure, and thus you lose height for every foot you are away from the structure base.

I was talking about manual ladders that could have been placed closer to the structure.

Either way modern equipment wasn't designed for things like flying buttresses getting in the way.

I have no idea on the manual ladders, but the ladder trucks have 100 feet on average of height but quite a bit more horizontal reach. The ladders have to be 125' or more to reach 100' in height since they aren't straight up and down.

I would be curious if the French had equipment that large, and more importantly, the large equipment in that area. Most of their bigger buildings are outside the historic area, and it would make sense to stage that equipment closer to the large building clusters.

 

[Pilot1]

Retrofitting modern sprinkler systems in structures like that is not feasible. I'd like to know what type of DETECTION system they had though.

 

[martybegan]

Again, the problem is getting a functional system into a structure like that. It's easy to slap in a couple of panels and run some small pipe into the building to give the impression of a fire suppression system, but all that does is give a false sense of security.

Installing a viable system for a building of that size and configuration would require massive amounts of water to be thrown about in patterns never considered in modern building construction. Modern structures don't have roof configurations that allowed the blaze to happen, nor are made of centuries old wood that is basically kindling in waiting.

It's not that difficult dude....trust me all it would have taken is a pressurized chase pipe
In the peak points...not hard to install or to operate. My guess is they couldn't work out the aesthetics....it would be ugly looking.

Jo

And if the system went off by accident it could destroy certain things of value in the place.

Running a 1 foot diameter pressurized pipe in a structure that was built before even the concept of such items was created is challenging.

Where to mount it, how to mount it, can the existing stone handle the loads, the vibrational actions, etc.

Has there even been a study on how centuries old stone walls would handle the impact of water hammer on a filled vertically run force main?

FYI, I have a masters in Chemical Engineering, and have 20 years experience in design, operations and construction of wastewater treatment plants (which includes fire safety systems) so I am talking from some experience here.

Sure...accidental activation is always a risk.
So is no prevention at all.

As for structural considerations I totally agree that an internal infrastructure separate from the antique structure is the correct choice. ... Still under a million bucks for peak coverages. I do this all the time...lol.

I'm betting it would be very unpleasant to look at.

Jo

You really think $1 million dollar system would have prevented this?

What type of systems do you install "all the time"?

Well to be fair my experience with it is
Strictly industrial and I don't have to worry much about combustibles or even aesthetics. A million is an arbitrary figure based on past experience costing out the materials and labor for hot spots under 200 feet high...including the multistage pressure pumping and the basic electronic controls such as location panels for the networks of
Smoke and heat sensors...all wifi now btw.

I don't know what heights are involved with the cathedral spire...but if somebody over there didn't see this coming they were just stupid.

I'm not saying it's a snap...especially in an antique structure...I am saying that NOTHING...is inexcusable.

Jo

You can't extrapolate a small system in a modern building to what would be required for something like a cathedral.

The closest you can approximate with would be the suppression systems for high rises, or things like professional sports stadiums, and for those systems you are talking 10's of millions of dollars as a floor, not a ceiling.

Just designing such a system would cost millions of dollars, and given the roof configuration, it's even possible you couldn't fit enough heads, or the pipes for the heads into the ceiling structure without modifying it in a major way.

 

[Crepitus]

Rush hour traffic made it difficult for ladder trucks to reach the scene

Do they even have ladders that big?

any ladder over 50 ft or so is pretty unstable.

10 floors (100 feet) is average.

I googled it the day of the fire.

I believe those are ladder trucks you are talking about.

The issue with the cathedral is it is difficult to get right alongside the structure, and thus you lose height for every foot you are away from the structure base.

I was talking about manual ladders that could have been placed closer to the structure.

Either way modern equipment wasn't designed for things like flying buttresses getting in the way.

I have no idea on the manual ladders, but the ladder trucks have 100 feet on average of height but quite a bit more horizontal reach. The ladders have to be 125' or more to reach 100' in height since they aren't straight up and down.

I would be curious if the French had equipment that large, and more importantly, the large equipment in that area. Most of their bigger buildings are outside the historic area, and it would make sense to stage that equipment closer to the large building clusters.

Again, no real idea. I was just curious about it after watching some of the video.

I do know that our local department has one custom truck that reaches 126' or about 13 stories.

 

[martybegan]

Do they even have ladders that big?

any ladder over 50 ft or so is pretty unstable.

10 floors (100 feet) is average.

I googled it the day of the fire.

I believe those are ladder trucks you are talking about.

The issue with the cathedral is it is difficult to get right alongside the structure, and thus you lose height for every foot you are away from the structure base.

I was talking about manual ladders that could have been placed closer to the structure.

Either way modern equipment wasn't designed for things like flying buttresses getting in the way.

I have no idea on the manual ladders, but the ladder trucks have 100 feet on average of height but quite a bit more horizontal reach. The ladders have to be 125' or more to reach 100' in height since they aren't straight up and down.

I would be curious if the French had equipment that large, and more importantly, the large equipment in that area. Most of their bigger buildings are outside the historic area, and it would make sense to stage that equipment closer to the large building clusters.

Again, no real idea. I was just curious about it after watching some of the video.

I do know that our local department has one custom truck that reaches 126' or about 13 stories.

I live in NYC so he FDNY has plenty of large equipment.

However for most fires in high structures the ladders are only part of the solution. Most times you stage inside the building as well. It's what led to the casualties on 9/11, as they simply didn't have the time to figure out the structural stability of the buildings and still try to fight the fire and evacuate people from the towers.

As an Engineer, I understand the need for time when trying to figure out exactly what happened, but I understand people's need to figure things out RIGHT NOW.

I was 11 when the Challenger exploded, but i had to wait until my 20's after Engineering School to truly understand the Rogers report.