There Has To Be Some BALANCE In This Matter of Unions

[The Infidel]

I've been reading some of the other threads and the right has some good points, thinking about the SAG union and such. There has been quite some abuses by unions in recent years, however, the overall function of them has still remained a force of good.

We just need to somehow figure out the how-to of that.

But this partisan, "all unions are evil" or "all unions are perfect."

That's not gonna cut it.

Nice to see some good discussion from both sides on this.

Good thread Marc.

 

[Dreamy]

I've been reading some of the other threads and the right has some good points, thinking about the SAG union and such. There has been quite some abuses by unions in recent years, however, the overall function of them has still remained a force of good.

We just need to somehow figure out the how-to of that.

But this partisan, "all unions are evil" or "all unions are perfect."

That's not gonna cut it.

Nice to see some good discussion from both sides on this.

Good thread Marc.

I agree. It makes for better discussion when people do realize that it is not always as simple as little children believe; good guys versus bad guys.

Some of the comments I have seen on various threads about unions are so inaccurate and so silly I know the posters are just reading from some anti-union talking points and know little about labor or union contracts.

I could discuss at length the failings of corporate America and labor unions. The American worker is getting squeezed played in a bad way by both sides. Shame on those who miss the bigger picture here and the real issues. The troubles for the American worker extend far beyond running unions out of town.

 

[g5000]

To be honest, the right has a point in their opposition of unions, however they are wrong. They are correct in recognizing the dangers of unions. As with anything, like business or capitalism, unions can get out of control and power-hungry, and as such, should be curbed.

However, that's not to say that they should not exist, just as no one sensible would argue that businesses, or capitalism should not exist, they just need to be curbed...aka regulated, as the case may be.

It is true, that unions can foster a culture of laziness, I've witnessed it myself, being part of management in a prominent company in NY that most everyone has heard of when I lived there. People can get into the whole attitude of "well that's not my job on paper, so I'm not doing it." However, that really boils down to the individual, remember "Individual Responsibility" Republicans?

At the same time, unions have been a TREMENDOUS force of good in this country and others, creating certain standards for workers, destroying child-labor abuse, getting folks fair compensation, regulating the work week as far as how many hours an employer can force an employee to work, etc., etc., etc., the list is long. So therefore, there is a place for them.

The Republicans cannot come to the table expecting to do away with unions for good, that's not sensible, it's radical. At the same time Democrats must not feel that unions can do no wrong, they can, just as businesses can and do.

We just need to find a happy medium...that's the trick.

My 2 cents.

I don't think most people, even those on the right, want to see labor unions disappear. They just want to see the abuses disappear.

I will tell you why labor unions are on the decline in America, and it has nothing to do with their abusive practices. Their abusive practices just make people not care the unions are disappearing. But they should care, because if we do everything right to correct our education system, we will quickly approach a point at which we will rue the infirmity of unions.

You see, these days unions serve as nothing more than instruments of protectionism. A union job is a low skilled job. There are less low skilled jobs than there are low skilled laborers, so the competition is very stiff for those jobs.

A closed shop is just a means to close out as much competition for the jobs as possible.

As more and more low skilled jobs move overseas, as they should, the competition becomes even more fierce for the ones remaining. It won't be long before we return to the days where there will be mobs around the loading docks with the super having his pick of laborers for the day at near slave wages. You can't outsource loading and unloading of the lava lamps that were built overseas that used to be built here.

We have arrived at this point because of the sad state of our educational system. It has been more than a generation since we began to fail to train our kids for the jobs of tomorrow. We are still training them to be lava lamp assembly line workers, and the unions are arm-twisting our legislatures to protect those lava lamp assembly jobs as a result, which is the totally opposite direction we need to go.

We need to let the lava lamp jobs go. Those are low skill jobs, and should therefore be low paying jobs. Paying high wages for low skill jobs is out of whack with the natural order of things.

We need a more balanced economy where high wages are commensurate with highly skilled jobs. We need to maintain our edge with education.

Right now, the hi-tech industries are not unionized. The workers enjoy great pay, great benefits, and a safe working environment. All without ever having to collectivize and bargain for those things.

Why? Because we have failed so miserably at creating such workers. They are a rarity and thus treated accordingly.

Once we return our education system to greatness and start cranking our more highly skilled workers, then we will see them starting to collectivize because they will no longer have the negotiating advantage with their employers they currently enjoy.

.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

What makes the education system competitive again?

 

[g5000]

What makes the education system competitive again?

Vouchers.

.

 

[Vanquish]

I've been reading some of the other threads and the right has some good points, thinking about the SAG union and such. There has been quite some abuses by unions in recent years, however, the overall function of them has still remained a force of good.

We just need to somehow figure out the how-to of that.

But this partisan, "all unions are evil" or "all unions are perfect."

That's not gonna cut it.

Nice to see some good discussion from both sides on this.

Good thread Marc.

I agree. It makes for better discussion when people do realize that it is not always as simple as little children believe; good guys versus bad guys.

Some of the comments I have seen on various threads about unions are so inaccurate and so silly I know the posters are just reading from some anti-union talking points and know little about labor or union contracts.

I could discuss at length the failings of corporate America and labor unions. The American worker is getting squeezed played in a bad way by both sides. Shame on those who miss the bigger picture here and the real issues. The troubles for the American worker extend far beyond running unions out of town.

Agreed. I think some people in the thread don't exactly know about how unions work.

I agree also that unions aren't perfect, nor are they evil.

I do realize that one of the major problems in America today is the depression of wages and the simultaneous rise of CEO compensation. This happens in most businesses because the Board of Directors sets CEO compensation and the CEO sets Board of Directors compensation. That's a bit of an incestuous loop that goes unchecked. In contrast, unions work as a leverage against this "fox guarding the hen house" situation. Without a counter to the advantage of the employer, the employee will always get screwed.


Another point that's begging to be made, is that when unions negotiate something good for workers, it's not done for free. Organization has costs. Thus union dues. So if someone doesn't join the union...it's all fine and good to say "well they don't get the good stuff the union guys get"...but invariably someone cries about it and the rest of the people get it too. And they got is as a "free rider". In fact, some states have laws saying that you HAVE to give the negotiated spoils to everyone so that conditions are fair. There are arguments on either side of the freerider idea.

Finally, I live in a right to work state myself. The chance to get dropped for no reason whatsoever here gives employers a HUGE advantage over the employee who lives in fear of losing their job.

 

[MarcATL]

Nice to see some good discussion from both sides on this.

Good thread Marc.

I agree. It makes for better discussion when people do realize that it is not always as simple as little children believe; good guys versus bad guys.

Some of the comments I have seen on various threads about unions are so inaccurate and so silly I know the posters are just reading from some anti-union talking points and know little about labor or union contracts.

I could discuss at length the failings of corporate America and labor unions. The American worker is getting squeezed played in a bad way by both sides. Shame on those who miss the bigger picture here and the real issues. The troubles for the American worker extend far beyond running unions out of town.

Agreed. I think some people in the thread don't exactly know about how unions work.

I agree also that unions aren't perfect, nor are they evil.

I do realize that one of the major problems in America today is the depression of wages and the simultaneous rise of CEO compensation. This happens in most businesses because the Board of Directors sets CEO compensation and the CEO sets Board of Directors compensation. That's a bit of an incestuous loop that goes unchecked. In contrast, unions work as a leverage against this "fox guarding the hen house" situation. Without a counter to the advantage of the employer, the employee will always get screwed.


Another point that's begging to be made, is that when unions negotiate something good for workers, it's not done for free. Organization has costs. Thus union dues. So if someone doesn't join the union...it's all fine and good to say "well they don't get the good stuff the union guys get"...but invariably someone cries about it and the rest of the people get it too. And they got is as a "free rider". In fact, some states have laws saying that you HAVE to give the negotiated spoils to everyone so that conditions are fair. There are arguments on either side of the freerider idea.

Finally, I live in a right to work state myself. The chance to get dropped for no reason whatsoever here gives employers a HUGE advantage over the employee who lives in fear of losing their job.

This is EXACTLY why unions are and remain a force of good.

A world without them will be a world I do not want to live in.

Corporations already have more than enough clout, power and influence as it is...no need to make it worse.

 

[initforme]

It's simply an organized, well thought out movement to get rid of unions. Once they are gone, people are forced to work for what the company offers. More profit for those at the top, and the workers are able to be hurt and thrown under the bus. As the right has not been telling us, they believe workers are a necessary EVIL. YES, EVIL. They are to be replaced and taken advantage of that way the heads make more profit. The one thing about capitalism that should be and NEEDS to be taught is in capitalism it is the worker VERSUS the company, not the worker working FOR the company. My kids are well versed on its YOU VERSUS your EMPLOYER. You show up, do a good job, but never ever try to enhance the company as they are not in existence for you. Its a dog eat dog world but the right keeps preaching workers are to give allegiance to the company you work for. But it isnt meant to work that way. yes you owe the company good work, but you dont owe them anything more than that and the very second you find better wages you immediately walk out the door. Thats capitalism and the way it is designed. To see it any other way is anti american.