Theodore Roosevelt's Remarks on Being an American

[Shogun]

scan the highlighted parts and come back and tell the thread how germans crossed the border and *POOF* became one with pure American culture (whatever that is)

 

[Adam's Apple]

You're never going to admit that the German immigrants who willingly and legally became contributing citizens of the American culture are nothing like the Mexican illegals who prefer to sneak in and wink at our laws, aided and abetted by the Mexican government. But you go ahead and support these illegals all you want. Tell us what great contributions--other than low wages and overtaxing our social services--they are going to make to the American culture. I'm not spending any more time addressing your wikipedia articles.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Adam’s Apple
You're never going to admit that the German immigrants who willingly and legally became contributing citizens of the American culture are nothing like the Mexican illegals who prefer to sneak in and wink at our laws, aided and abetted by the Mexican government.

Let’s say mexicans and Latinos in general have for the US laws the same kind of “respect” the US had for the territorial integrity of Mexico in the 19th century

But that’s where the similarities end:

Mexico couldn’t do shit to avoid the landgrab and americanization of more than half of its territory 150 years ago.

The US is fully capable of avoiding the latinization of these territories that now, 150 years later, rightfully belong to it but chooses not to.

The reasons behind the US inaction??

Well, together with the origin of the Universe and the origin of life on Earth, I consider this to be one of the great mysteries of the universe

 

[Foxfyre]

Let’s say mexicans and Latinos in general have for the US laws the same kind of “respect” the US had for the territorial integrity of Mexico in the 19th century

But that’s where the similarities end:

Mexico couldn’t do shit to avoid the landgrab and americanization of more than half of its territory 150 years ago.

The US is fully capable of avoiding the latinization of these territories that now, 150 years later, rightfully belong to it but chooses not to.

The reasons behind the US inaction??

Well, together with the origin of the Universe and the origin of life on Earth, I consider this to be one of the great mysteries of the universe

The fact is that there is no land on Earth that somebody did not take from somebody else. All land masses have changed 'ownership' by either assimilation or by force many times over the history of humankind. However peaceful we or others may be now, all of us have evolved from various forms of savagery and, for purpose of sport or personal gain, descended from people willing to do violence to others for any arbitrary purpose. Settling differences or acquiring property via legal means rather than by force and/or by ability to hold it is a quite recent concept in the grand scheme of things.

The U.S. inaction in the case of Latin illegals is a whole different thing and arises out of: a) mushy headed 'liberalism' that puts immediate 'caring' ahead of long term compassion; b) opportunism of greedy employers who benefit from below standard wages no matter how much it may hurt others; and c) calculations from unscrupulous politicians who will take votes, legal or illegal, wherever they can get them whether or not they eventually lose their country in the process.

These things are much more difficult to fend off than were simple swords and bullets. The old ways did have their advantages.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Foxfyre
The U.S. inaction in the case of Latin illegals is a whole different thing and arises out of: a) mushy headed 'liberalism' that puts immediate 'caring' ahead of long term compassion; b) opportunism of greedy employers who benefit from below standard wages no matter how much it may hurt others; and c) calculations from unscrupulous politicians who will take votes, legal or illegal, wherever they can get them whether or not they eventually lose their country in the process.

I agree with your summation completely, Foxfyre.

And if you don't mind, let me make an "abridged" version of it:

The american society as a whole (liberals, conservatives, corporations etc, etc...) just can't get to an agreement about what to do with the damned southern border.

If and when this agreement is reached will be the day the US immigration problems will come to an end.

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree with your summation completely, Foxfyre.

And if you don't mind, let me make an "abridged" version of it:

The american society as a whole (liberals, conservatives, corporations etc, etc...) just can't get to an agreement about what to do with the damned southern border.

If and when this agreement is reached will be the day the US immigration problems will come to an end.

Well sort of, but I don't think the problem is our southern border any more than we have a problem with our northern border. The problem is the unwillingness of our elected leaders and/or the people to strengthen the law to give it more teeth so that the courts won't be exacerbating the problem, and then enforce the law. Once we make being in this country illegally an unprofitable and unpleasant experience, the problem will be largely solved and law enforcement, local, state, and federal can then focus on rounding up and doing whatever is necessary to those who are here intending to do violence to us.

 

[Shogun]

You're never going to admit that the German immigrants who willingly and legally became contributing citizens of the American culture are nothing like the Mexican illegals who prefer to sneak in and wink at our laws, aided and abetted by the Mexican government. But you go ahead and support these illegals all you want. Tell us what great contributions--other than low wages and overtaxing our social services--they are going to make to the American culture. I'm not spending any more time addressing your wikipedia articles.

Again, my position was NEVER that german immigrants were ILLEGAL. MY point remains that their first and second generation payed the same non-assimilation game that every other ethnic group plays when they enter the US in droves. AND, I've proven as much despite your stupid ass quotes about how Germans just immediately melted into the fucking culture. Go back and actually read what I"VE posted, and the evidence that goes along, instead of what you wish were the case with you ignorant ass Chewbacca defense. QUOTE me, bitch, where I said even the slightest thing about Germans coming illegally. I DARE you. No, I Double dog chocolate sunday dare you with Bratwurst and Sour kraut on top.

Regardless of illegal immigration it's still true that the GERMANS spoke the GERMAN language in their own GERMAN communities during the first and second generations JUST LIKE the Mexicans are doing right now.

Indeed, posted Wiki articles trump your sorry ass lack of evidence all thread long. Why don't you take any one of my sources and discover something about your heritage that you sure as fuck didn't know before having this discussion with me?




Indeed, you sorry son of a bitch, MEXICANS clearly have had a greater impact on this nation than germans all day long. If you really want to consider whose culture has been a greater influence you might try comparing GERMAN city names with SPANISH city names. That is, if you aren't too fucking stupid to think that San Fransisco was merely a TRIBUTE to latinos when it is clearly the product of a viable latino population YEARS before the first German put his foot on North American soil. You might just be too goddamn dumb to figure out why your silly reproach of mexicans is no different than that which was visited against the first generation of Germans.... for more than WW1 and 2 even.

 

[trobinett]

Shogun posts:

Indeed, you sorry son of a bitch, MEXICANS clearly have had a greater impact on this nation than germans all day long. If you really want to consider whose culture has been a greater influence you might try comparing GERMAN city names with SPANISH city names. That is, if you aren't too fucking stupid to think that San Fransisco was merely a TRIBUTE to latinos when it is clearly the product of a viable latino population YEARS before the first German put his foot on North American soil. You might just be too goddamn dumb to figure out why your silly reproach of mexicans is no different than that which was visited against the first generation of Germans.... for more than WW1 and 2 even.

Now, that post is truly something to be proud of Shogun.

It's got everything, calling a poster a SOB, calling them fucking stupid, goddamn dumb, and silly.

That's why I gave you shit earlier Shogun, your a prick!

You make good points, from time to time, but what you accomplish with your well researched posts, you lose with vile, and UNNESSASARY BELITTLING.

Got nothing of real importance to add to the subject of the tread, but I thought I'd just let you, and others know what I think about your handing of AA's post.

Pretty fucking sorry........

 

[Shogun]

I'm not here to be your buddy. I've made my case and provided support for my position. The wrapping on the package doesn't make the gift of knowledge any less valuable. If my words make you think then my job is done even if the vocab and attitude chafe. I don't pounce without instigation and I'll bet, if you review the thread, you'll find that i'm only returning in kind.


also, not to be a prick or anything but it's "You're a prick"


Have a great weekend!

 

[trobinett]

I'm not here to be your buddy.

That's certanily a relief.

I've made my case and provided support for my position.

And, your are, without a doubt, a talented debater.

The wrapping on the package doesn't make the gift of knowledge any less valuable.

Really, I beg to differ. It makes ALL the difference, and puts what knowledge you attempt to bring to the discussion suspect.

If my words make you think then my job is done even if the vocab and attitude chafe.

Not a bad way to look at it, but certainly limited in its appeal.

I don't pounce without instigation and I'll bet, if you review the thread, you'll find that i'm only returning in kind.

Neither do I, and I have. I don't see ONE instance where AA brings to the disscussion such behavior as I have assigned to you.

also, not to be a prick or anything but it's "You're a prick"

"You're a prick", that IS true...............

Have a great weekend!

You as well............

 

[Shogun]

hehehe..

i was just messing with you on the grammer police bit. Hell, have you read MY posts? I'm no grammar scholar either.

 

[Eightball]

WE paid tribute by naming San Francisco, eh?




Good one!

uh, you do realize that San Fran was a spanish settlement BEFORE california was a state, right?
You might check your history and find out that S.F. when under Mexican/Spanish rule was not called San Francisco, but "Yerba Buena".


As to your ignorance regarding the first generation of Irish, Italian and German immigrants feel free to discover how the same concern you throw at mexicans were tossed their way too. If you think First generation Germans acclimated to Engrish upon landing in North America then you must have never been to any GERMAN towns in Mid America. We STILL have a giant Oktoberfest celebrations in our GERMAN towns in my state. Much like the Irish have their fun in March.
My grandparents on both sides came from Sweden, via Ellis Island! Upon settling in Utah and California, they always spoke english in front of their children, which included my Mom and Pop. Why? Cause, these simple folks from impoverished Europe wanted their children to become Americanized, ASAP! Even lacking higher education this simple folks who were farmers, loggers, saloon keepers, etc.., had enough common sense to know that if their kids stood a chance in America, they needed to speak the language. Common sense!


Also, winning a war with Mexico probably doesn't erase the historic latino cultural influence in a town named SAN FRANCISCO either but railing against mexicans and muslims is fashionable these days so have at it.

Yerba Buena!
You also fail to understand how many Mexican natives that resided both in Texas and California that became Americans, and detested Mexican citizenship, and repressive governing, dating back to Emporer/General Santa Ana, who ravaged Texas with his Napoleonic eurphoria.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Eightball
You might check your history and find out that S.F. when under Mexican/Spanish rule was not called San Francisco, but "Yerba Buena".

San Francisco, Yerba Buena, Yerba Mala...

San Francisco, Good Herb, Bad Herb...

Esto es todo español, loco!!!

This is all spanish, you lil fool!!!

 

[Foxfyre]

San Francisco, Yerba Buena, Yerba Mala...

San Francisco, Good Herb, Bad Herb...

Esto es todo español, loco!!!

This is all spanish, you lil fool!!!

It is foolish to think that Mexico or Mexicans had anything to do with naming San Francisco (or most other areas/cities with Spanish names that were settled by the Spaniards). California was under Santa Ana's authority for a time, but it was quite short lived.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Foxfyre
It is foolish to think that Mexico or Mexicans had anything to do with naming San Francisco (or most other areas/cities with Spanish names that were settled by the Spaniards). California was under Santa Ana's authority for a time, but it was quite short lived.

The mexican government allowed A SMALL NUMBER of Anglo settlers to settle in Texas.

But the mexican state was invaded by a huge number of american families.

What should we call these americans who were not authorised to reside in Texas?

Yes, you guessed it right!!!

ILLEGAL AMERICANS IN MEXICO!!!

 

[Foxfyre]

The mexican government allowed A SMALL NUMBER of Anglo settlers to settle in Texas.

But the mexican state was invaded by a huge number of american families.

What should we call these americans who were not authorised to reside in Texas?

Yes, you guessed it right!!!

ILLEGAL AMERICANS IN MEXICO!!!

Perhaps, but then the Mexican residents there took the land from somebody before them too. The land was first occupied of course by the indigenous Indians, was first claimed as a territory by Spain and France, not Mexico, and the indigenous Indians were quickly subdued. Mexico, in an armed invasion, acquired the territory from Spain via armed conflict in 1821.

Your short account of history is somewhat revisionist as Mexico had no formal immigration policy at that time but in fact INVITED Europeans and Americans to move into and settle the territory and thus become dutiful tax payers to the Mexican government. The Europeans and Americans, however, were not interested in being Mexican, resisted being required to speak Spanish, and strongly resisted a mandate to become Catholic. So, in 1836, the European, American, and the more indigenous Hispanic Texans revolted against the Mexican government and prevailed in taking the land and forming the Republic of Texas that thrived until it joined the United States in 1845.

We do have immigration policies and laws in place now, however, and, like any laws, we would be wise to enforce them as any nation that becomes lawless does not long survive.

 

[pegwinn]

Anyone who doesn't get why putting _____-American is divisive and pretty much wrong... well there aint much hope for you.

I actually know several American-Blacks. They call themselves that to make sure that people understand they are Americans first and Black second.

Don't get me wrong....... Identity is important. I, for example, am a Native American. IOW I am a bone white born in Texas citizen of the USA who had a wandering adventurer in the UK (English, Irish, Welsh) for an ancestor on Pops side, and some German and Cherokees on Moms side.

There is a world of difference in preserving what you love about the old country and refusing to assimilate. My Grandmother from Dads side was as English as you can imagine. Every day there was tea (of all things) at a certain time. She talked about "Mr. Churchill" and yet she loved the West Virginia Hills where she and my Grandfather settled.

IF you don't want to become Americans, then go back to where you came from after enhancing our economy with your tourist dollars.

BTW another awesome quote from Teddy Roosevelt speaks (to me at least) of the greatness of being American and a Citizen and the need to learn from the old world while struggling in the new. It's called "The man in the Arena". Rather than post it here, I will hope some are motivated to read it in its' entirety and especially note the text in red.

 

[Foxfyre]

Anyone who doesn't get why putting _____-American is divisive and pretty much wrong... well there aint much hope for you.

I actually know several American-Blacks. They call themselves that to make sure that people understand they are Americans first and Black second.

Don't get me wrong....... Identity is important. I, for example, am a Native American. IOW I am a bone white born in Texas citizen of the USA who had a wandering adventurer in the UK (English, Irish, Welsh) for an ancestor on Pops side, and some German and Cherokees on Moms side.

There is a world of difference in preserving what you love about the old country and refusing to assimilate. My Grandmother from Dads side was as English as you can imagine. Every day there was tea (of all things) at a certain time. She talked about "Mr. Churchill" and yet she loved the West Virginia Hills where she and my Grandfather settled.

IF you don't want to become Americans, then go back to where you came from after enhancing our economy with your tourist dollars.

BTW another awesome quote from Teddy Roosevelt speaks (to me at least) of the greatness of being American and a Citizen and the need to learn from the old world while struggling in the new. It's called "The man in the Arena". Rather than post it here, I will hope some are motivated to read it in its' entirety and especially note the text in red.

I think you misunderstand what is intended by 'assimilation' or 'seamless assimilation into the uniquely American culture'. To assimilate means that one adopts the basic principles/values that make America what it is, namely respect for the Constitution and law of the land, respect for the flag and all it symbolizes, learning the language and basic customs of civility, appreciation and fierce ownership of principles of freedom, unalienable rights, and basic justice. Those who assimilate will expect to earn their own bread and be productive and useful members of their communities, and will think of themselves as Americans.

They will still be who they are and should not expect to become carbon copies of everybody else. They certainly should not have to give up any natural mannerisms or special customs they enjoy from the 'old country' so long as such customs do not seriously offend American sensibilities. (I once helped neighbors newly immigrated from Vietnam get settled into their new home and learn the ropes. At one point I had to explain that they would seriously offend their neighbors if they purchased and bar-b-qued dogs from the dog pound, something that was completely socially acceptable in their old home. They fully understood and within a year or two they were quite American while still retaining the charm of their Vietnamese heritage.)

 

[pegwinn]

I am fairly clear on assimilation. I object to those who fly the mexican flag, refuse to learn English, yet demand the protections of our nation.

Identity is fine so long as it is an aspect of being an American.

 

[jillian]

I think you misunderstand what is intended by 'assimilation' or 'seamless assimilation into the uniquely American culture'. To assimilate means that one adopts the basic principles/values that make America what it is, namely respect for the Constitution and law of the land, respect for the flag and all it symbolizes, learning the language and basic customs of civility, appreciation and fierce ownership of principles of freedom, unalienable rights, and basic justice. Those who assimilate will expect to earn their own bread and be productive and useful members of their communities, and will think of themselves as Americans.

Is that what you think assimilation is, respect for symbols? No question that when my grandparents came here, they couldn't wait to be "yenkees", as they said. But it wasn't just a respect for symbols, though love of country was part of it. It was more a "sense" of being part of something, but it wasn't defineable in any way and it certainly had nothing to do with "inalienable rights", though they appreciated the freedoms they found here. Mostly, being "American" meant they could be themselves and practice their religion without pogroms every Sunday night. As for language, new immigrants, I've found, are only successful at that to a degree. Most speak their native language at home and around others who come from the same place. For example, my neighborhood is largely Russian immigrants. The parents of the kids in my son's class speak Russian while waiting to pick them up after school and speak Russian in their stores. Their KIDS speak English and will have a "culture" that's more like any other person who's family has lived here. But I've never found that assimilating was about symbols. It's simply being here long enough where you're less like where your ancestors came from and more like what you see on TV and the people around you.

In fact, this country was founded on "rebellion" and not assimilation. So I'd say it may be *more* American, if there's such a thing, to be a bit rebellious, non-conformist and individualistic. Just my opinion.... but then again, I also don't come from a white, anglo-saxon background, so my observations might be a bit different.