The Wisdom of Thucydides and the Pathetic State of US Politics

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JimBowie1958, May 17, 2012.

  1. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    The Wisdom of Thucydides
    The Wisdom of Thucydides | theneedleblog

    Thucydides was probably born about 460BC and was for a time a General on the side of democratic Athens against aristocratic Sparta in what is known as the Peloponnesian War in which most of Greece took a side. After being exiled he wrote his famous history. The passage that I've quoted in full below is, in my opinion, one of the finest passages of classical antiquity. I was somewhat surprised not to be able to find it elsewhere quoted online. It descibes the breakdown of civil society and in doing so it perfectly describes every civil war and revolution that has taken place in the almost two and half thousands years since it was written including the English Civil War, French Revolution, American Civil War, Russian Revolution, and Spanish Civil War. Human nature, it seems is immutable.

    I bring it to attention in the vain hope that those who have blindly pursued the policies which have brought Greece to the brink and risks plunging the whole of Europe into the abyss, might consider more keenly the consequences of their actions and change course before it's too late.



    "So revolutions broke out in city after city, and in places where the revolutions occured late the knowledge of what had happened previously in other places caused still new extravagances of revolutionary zeal, expressed by an elaboration in the methods of seizing power and by unheard-of atrocities in revenge. To fit in with the change of events, words, too, had to change their meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one might expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defence. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted and anyone who objected to them became suspect. To plot successfully was a sign intelligence, but it was still cleverer to see that a plot was hatching. If one attempted to provide against having to do either, one was disrupting the unity of the party and acting out of fear of the opposition. In short, it was equally praiseworthy to get one's blow in first against someone who was going to do wrong, and to denounce someone who had no intention of doing any wrong at all. Family relations were a weaker tie than party membership, since party members were more ready to go to any extreme for any reason whatever. These parties were not formed to enjoy the benefits of established laws, but to aquire power by overthrowing the existing regime; and the members of these parties felt confidence in each other not because of any fellowship in a religious communion, but because they were partners in crime. If an opponent made a reasonable speech, the party in power, so far from giving it a generous reception, took every precaution to see that it had no practical effect.



    Revenge was more important than self-preservation, And if pacts of mutual security were made, they were entered into by the two parties only in order to meet some temporary difficulty, and remained in force only so long as there was no other weapon available. When the chance came, the one who seized it boldly, catching the enemy off his guard, enjoyed a revenge that was all the sweeter from having taken, not openly, but because of a breach of faith. It was safer that way, it was considered, and at the same time a victory won by treachery gave one a title for superior intelligence. And indeed most people are more ready to call villainy cleverness than simple-mindedness honesty. They are proud of the first quality and ashamed of the second.



    Love of power, operating through greed and through personal ambition, was the cause of all these evils. To this must be added violent fanaticism which came into play once the struggle had broken out. Leaders of parties in the cities had programmes which appeared admirable - on one side political equality for the masses, on the other the safe and sound government of the aristocracy - but in professing to serve the public interest they were seeking to win the prizes for themselves. In their struggle for ascendancy nothing was barred; terrible indeed were the actions to which they committed themselves, and in taking revenge they went farther still. Here they were deterred neither by claims of justice nor by the interests of the state; their one standard was the pleasure of their own party at that particular moment, and so, either by means of condemning their enemies on an illegal vote or by violently usurping power over them, they were always ready to satisfy the hatreds of the hour. Thus neither side had any use for conscientious motives; more interest was shown in those who could produce attractive arguments to justify some disgraceful action. As for the citizens who held moderate views, they were destroyed by both extreme parties, either for not taking part in the struggle or in envy at the possibility that they might survive.



    As the result of these revolutions, there was a general deterioration of character throughout the Greek world. The simple way of looking at things, which is so much the mark of a noble nature, was regarded as a ridiculous quality and soon ceased to exist. Society had become divided into two ideologically hostile camps, and each side viewed the other with suspicion. As for ending this state of affairs, no guarentee could be given that would be trusted, no oath sworn that people would fear to break; everyone had come to the conclusion that it was hopeless to expect a permanent settlement and so, instead of being able to feel confident in others, they devoted their energies to providing against being injured themselves. As a rule those who were the least remarkable for intelligence showed the greater powers of survival. Such people recognised their own deficiencies and the superior intelligence of their opponents; fearing that they might lose a debate or find themselves out-manoeuvred in intrigue by their quick-witted enemies, they boldly launched straight into action; while their opponents, overconfident in the belief that they would see what was happening in advance, and not thinking it necessary to seize by force what they could secure by policy, were the more easily destroyed because they were off guard.



    Certainly it was in Corcyra that there occured the first examples of the breakdown of law and order. There was the revenge taken in their hour of triumph by those who had in the past been arrogantly oppressed instead of wisely governed; there were the wicked resolutions taken by those who, particularly under the pressure of misfortune, wished to escape from their usual poverty and coveted the property of their neighbours; there were the savage and pitiless actions into which men were carried not so much for the sake of gain as because they were swept away into internecine struggle by their ungovernable passions. Then, with the ordinary conventions of civilised life thrown into confusion, human nature, always ready to offend even where laws exist, showed itself proudly in its true colours, as something incapable of controlling passion, insubordinate to the idea of justice, the enemy to anything superior to itself; for, if it had not been for the pernicious powers of envy, men would not so have exalted vengeance above innocence and profit above justice. Indeed, it is true that in these acts of revenge on others men take it upon themselves to begin the process of repealing those general laws of humanity which are there to give a hope of salvation to all who are in distress, instead of leaving those laws in existence, remembering that there may be a time when they, too, will be in danger and will need their protection."
     
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  2. LordBrownTrout
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    LordBrownTrout Gold Member

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    Good article but our congressmen wouldn't understand this even if they read it.
     
  3. theDoctorisIn
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    theDoctorisIn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator

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    See my signature.

    I disagree with you completely, of course - I don't see Europe on the brink of "revolution".

    But I appreciate scholars of history and theory, even when I disagree with them.
     
  4. LordBrownTrout
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    LordBrownTrout Gold Member

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    I tend to agree with you on this in that the situation has to be extremely dire for a revolution to occur. I can easily see their monetary system breaking down. Our revolution, 200 plus years ago, had more to do with ideology. I doubt that they could have ever subscribed to that quote of Thucydides.
     
  5. Imnukingfutz
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    Imnukingfutz Senior Member

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    What is ideology other than your attempt at pushing your views onto someone else for the gain of power?

    In the case of the American Revolution, the Patriots wanted to seize power from the crown of England to have the power for themselves rather than having someone rule over them.

    Right or wrong, the fact remains that the war was fought for power...control. Even in the Americans eyes for their own control and freedom.

    There were those who supported the crown who were forced to abandon it when the US won independence. They had to give into the ideology of the winners.
     
  6. LordBrownTrout
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    LordBrownTrout Gold Member

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    The need to retain loyalist allegiance also meant that the British were unable to use the harsh methods of suppressing rebellion they employed in Ireland and Scotland. Even with these limitations, many potentially neutral colonists were nonetheless driven into the ranks of the revolutionaries because of the war.

    I think the numbers fell along the lines of approx. 30 percent in support of the revolution, 30percent in support of the crown, and 30 percent indifferent.
     
  7. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Secret combinations always destroy the people if they arent rooted out with truth and contrasted with goodness.
     
  8. g5000
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    g5000 Diamond Member

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    It's a great quote, but what is the relevance? Why did you post it here?

    Thucydides' quote describes the mob mentality pretty well, and one can see shades of the French Revolution's Reign of Terror in it.

    But if the idea was to suggest some kind of parallel to American politics today then I submit anyone who thinks that way seriously lacks perspective.
     
  9. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Diamond Member

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    That quote is very applicable to the US today. We have see Senator McConnel, during the greatest economic crisis that this nation has faced since 1929, stating that it was far more important to deny President Obama a second term than to address the issues that created this situation.

    As a liberal, I have seen many on my side insist that it is more important to address the bigotry toward homosexuals than address the increasing disparity in wealth between the very wealthy and every body else. Seen the plight of a rapidly declining middle class ignored.

    A world view on two side that see only black and white lead to the dissolution of societies and nations. We are seeing the beginning of that in this nation.

    On this very board, we have repeatedly seen those that state they are just waiting for the oppertunity to kill their fellow Americans whom they see as some terminal threat because of disagreements on policy and living style. We have an increasing number of mini-Joe McCarthys spreading their disease of the mind and society in our nation.
     
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  10. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    I am going to have to disagree with you. I see much parallel. But then maybe I just lack perspective:)
     

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