The west was won with the 44-40 lever action, which was

[prison/con.net]

just a 200 gr, non expanding, flat tipped lfp, at 1200 fps, which the 1911, in .460 rowland, greatly outperforms today. That's just 660 ft lbs of power, and much of it just overpenetrates a man, due to the non expanding bullet of the 44-40. It deals a solid blow ,but it's obvious, when you shoot feral dogs and coyotes with it and with good quality 223 softpoints in the m4, that the 223 slams them harder. The reason guys have problems with 223 is they are too cheap and ignorant to use quality bullets in it. they use the military bullet, which is designed to be minimallly destructive and shocking. Not just 223, but ALL ball rds are designed expressly that way, for that reason. it's supposed to be "more humane'.

at the other extreme guys mess up and use 223 'varmint loads", sp's and hp's that are intended to blow up in a crow. Such bullets 40-55 grs in weight, are very thin jacketed, very fragile and tend to make wide, shallow wounds in men big dogs or deer. You want the 60 gr Nosler Partition. softpoints because their unique design lets them expand, yet hold together a penetrate deeper

 

[Moonglow]

The West was won by killing, so it is only fair that the killing continue to maintain the status quo...

 

[prison/con.net]

part of this ignorance is relected in their not having a silencer. The blasts then make them flinch, and they (and the flash at night) call in accurate enemy fire, which of course leads to more flinching and missing. The time to be firing is when you have caught the enemy unawares, in the open, erect, and frontally or rear facing you (ie the largest possibe targets) At ranges under 100 yds, you can then hit 3-6 of them before they can tell where your fire is coming from (ie, which side of the tree is cover). Then you leave the area ,letting them sweat until dark, wasting their ammo and listening to the howls of their gut shot buddies. Then see if they still want to hang around your area.

 

[prison/con.net]

part of this ignorance is relected in their not having a silencer. The blasts then make them flinch, and they (and the flash at night) call in accurate enemy fire, which of course leads to more flinching and missing. The time to be firing is when you have caught the enemy unawares, in the open, erect, and frontally or rear facing you (ie the largest possibe targets) At ranges under 100 yds, you can then hit 3-6 of them before they can tell where your fire is coming from (ie, which side of the tree is cover). Then you leave the area ,letting them sweat until dark, wasting their ammo and listening to the howls of their gut shot buddies. Then see if they still want to hang around your area

 

[prison/con.net]

So the Partition loaded ammo costs $1 per rd (Black Hills Ammo). So what? It's not about the number of rds that you fire (and MISS with), it's about the number of disabling hits that you get. You think nothing of wasting $2 per shot on practice with 45-70, so what's the deal about $200 for a goodly supply of shtf Partition sp's.? Learn to reload and $200 means 400 rds of partitions. Do you practicing with the .22lr unit or with ball 223. Save the partitions for when it counts.

 

[prison/con.net]

why not kill pos's who attack others? Good riddance. Are you defending such people? if you are, then you're one of them and deseve what they get.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Don't the practice rounds produce different recoils? If so then it's kinda pointless to use them dontcha' think?

 

[WinterBorn]

just a 200 gr, non expanding, flat tipped lfp, at 1200 fps, which the 1911, in .460 rowland, greatly outperforms today. That's just 660 ft lbs of power, and much of it just overpenetrates a man, due to the non expanding bullet of the 44-40. It deals a solid blow ,but it's obvious, when you shoot feral dogs and coyotes with it and with good quality 223 softpoints in the m4, that the 223 slams them harder. The reason guys have problems with 223 is they are too cheap and ignorant to use quality bullets in it. they use the military bullet, which is designed to be minimallly destructive and shocking. Not just 223, but ALL ball rds are designed expressly that way, for that reason. it's supposed to be "more humane'.

at the other extreme guys mess up and use 223 'varmint loads", sp's and hp's that are intended to blow up in a crow. Such bullets 40-55 grs in weight, are very thin jacketed, very fragile and tend to make wide, shallow wounds in men big dogs or deer. You want the 60 gr Nosler Partition. softpoints because their unique design lets them expand, yet hold together a penetrate deeper

And yet, in several of your "fair & balanced" comparison posts, you always specify quality ammo for the .223, and ball ammo for the .308 (or whatever other round). Why would that be?

 

[WinterBorn]

So the Partition loaded ammo costs $1 per rd (Black Hills Ammo). So what? It's not about the number of rds that you fire (and MISS with), it's about the number of disabling hits that you get. You think nothing of wasting $2 per shot on practice with 45-70, so what's the deal about $200 for a goodly supply of shtf Partition sp's.? Learn to reload and $200 means 400 rds of partitions. Do you practicing with the .22lr unit or with ball 223. Save the partitions for when it counts.

Every different round acts a little differently, as far as accuracy goes. Yeah, shooting a bunch of cheaper rounds is fun. But not practicing with the ammo you plan to use is simply stupid. You want to shoot that ammo enough to know every nuance of its performance.

And who are you trying to call out about spending money on ammo? I haven't seen anyone argue cost as a reason not to shoot. It might be a reason to reload, but not to avoid shooting.

 

[Roadrunner]

just a 200 gr, non expanding, flat tipped lfp, at 1200 fps, which the 1911, in .460 rowland, greatly outperforms today. That's just 660 ft lbs of power, and much of it just overpenetrates a man, due to the non expanding bullet of the 44-40. It deals a solid blow ,but it's obvious, when you shoot feral dogs and coyotes with it and with good quality 223 softpoints in the m4, that the 223 slams them harder. The reason guys have problems with 223 is they are too cheap and ignorant to use quality bullets in it. they use the military bullet, which is designed to be minimallly destructive and shocking. Not just 223, but ALL ball rds are designed expressly that way, for that reason. it's supposed to be "more humane'.

at the other extreme guys mess up and use 223 'varmint loads", sp's and hp's that are intended to blow up in a crow. Such bullets 40-55 grs in weight, are very thin jacketed, very fragile and tend to make wide, shallow wounds in men big dogs or deer. You want the 60 gr Nosler Partition. softpoints because their unique design lets them expand, yet hold together a penetrate deeper

And yet, in several of your "fair & balanced" comparison posts, you always specify quality ammo for the .223, and ball ammo for the .308 (or whatever other round). Why would that be?

This controversy is so intense I think I will buy the a Sig in .308 to go with my .223.

Carry them both, in case some real SHTF arises, and I be caught with the wrong thing.

 

[prison/con.net]

there was another idiot like you, Jungle Warfare was his nick. on hardCoreTalk.com, always talking about how he could "easily" lug around 100 lbs of stuff. If you have nothing to contribute to the thread, why post, eh? Cause you think that you're special?

 

[prison/con.net]

no, there's no difference in the recoil of different 223 loads, In fact, the 223, with the silencer mounted, is so "tame" as to recoil and noise that it's the same as practicing with the .22lr conversion unit (no silencer for the .22 practice). So it saves you 30c per shot, paying for the silencer and the .22 unit in one year's practice savings, really. That's if you have a local shop make the can, along with your efforts (about a day). That day and $100 saves you about $700 on the cost of a commercial 223 silencer.

 

[WinterBorn]

I am contributing plenty. I ask relevant questions. Which you seem reluctant to answer. And I point out problems or offer alternative answers.

I am sure you'd rather have everyone just say "You are SO right. YOu must be really smart and super dangerous", but that ain't happening here.

 

[prison/con.net]

it's not like the difference between the .22lr and an unsuppressed 308, ya know. the 308 moves your torso back and rotates your shoulder around. if you don't believe this, fire one while sitting, with your shoulder up against the rim of your car's wheel. you'll get the message of how much the 308 is not what you want for combat.

 

[WinterBorn]

no, there's no difference in the recoil of different 223 loads, In fact, the 223, with the silencer mounted, is so "tame" as to recoil and noise that it's the same as practicing with the .22lr conversion unit (no silencer for the .22 practice). So it saves you 30c per shot, paying for the silencer and the .22 unit in one year's practice savings, really. That's if you have a local shop make the can, along with your efforts (about a day). That day and $100 saves you about $700 on the cost of a commercial 223 silencer.

There is often a difference in accuracy, and more often point-of-impact, with different rounds. So practicing with the round you plan to use is critical.

As for recoil, I have never had an issue with it unless I was shooting something really big.

 

[WinterBorn]

it's not like the difference between the .22lr and an unsuppressed 308, ya know. the 308 moves your torso back and rotates your shoulder around. if you don't believe this, fire one while sitting, with your shoulder up against the rim of your car's wheel. you'll get the message of how much the 308 is not what you want for combat.

I have fired my .308 in a multitude of different positions. As for firing it with my back against the rim of a wheel, why would I do something so foolish?

Yes, the .308 recoils more than the .223. That is called physics. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". The reason for the additional recoil is that there is additional power being expended. Which is why, all other factors being equal, the .308 is accurate at greater ranges than the .223.

 

[prison/con.net]

Ok, for those who obviously know NOTHING about combat practice. The difference in POI between 55 and 62 gr ball ammo, at 100 yds, is about 2". Ditto the Nosler partition load. When you are being shot at, you'll be lucky to hit a 10" mark, at 100 yds, even if you are prone. . So, no, it wouldn't make any difference even if you ARE dumb enough to not know the clicks on the sight to adjust for your load (and do so, before and after practice sessions). Sheesh, kid stuff.

 

[WinterBorn]

Ok, for those who obviously know NOTHING about combat practice. The difference in POI between 55 and 62 gr ball ammo, at 100 yds, is about 2". Ditto the Nosler partition load. When you are being shot at, you'll be lucky to hit a 10" mark, at 100 yds, even if you are prone. . So, no, it wouldn't make any difference even if you ARE dumb enough to not know the clicks on the sight to adjust for your load (and do so, before and after practice sessions). Sheesh, kid stuff.

Find me one reputable combat or defensive firearms instructor that advocates using different ammo for practice than what you will carry. That 2" difference proves my point.

 

[prison/con.net]

but those ranges are irrelvant to combat, as an individual survivalist. you aint in the military, so why are you arguing stupid military type issues, hmm? NOBODY, using ANY rifle, sight, or load, can get 50% ;hits on a dodging, cover using, prone going, rolling man at a mere 300 yds, WELL within the range of the scoped m4. That's the reality of combat. your fantasies about having erect, frontal, fully exposed, stationary enemies are just that, fantasies. The fact of the matter is that our troops MISS the enemy entirely with MANY thousands of rds of rifle ammo, for every hit that they get. When you are dumb enough to use the 308 (and thus, ,no silencer) you will do the same. 308's recoil is just a waste. It slows down your repeat hit speed, and you lug around that weight (and do without the silencer) for nothing.

 

[prison/con.net]

it proves NOTHING. I helped train a bunch of those guys. NOBODY will claim that they can reliably hit even a 10" mark at 100 yds, while they are being shot-at. much less PROVE that they can. I"ll be happy to fire a foot or so over their heads , while they try to hit such a mark, repeatedly. Wanna try it? of course you don't. Cause you're fos